dps gap may cause game development gap?

phermitgb · May 2018

so, for the longest time, I've wondered...I have no data to support my suspicion, just a semi-logical chain of thought...

Fact - #1 - many, many people complain that ESO overland content (quest bosses, delves, world bosses, even most basic dungeons) are too easy (it's a FACT that many people complain - whether or not it is or isn't is more debateable)
#2 - top tier dps often quotes dps ranges between 45k dps and 65k dps...
#3 - as an experienced MMO player with very little drive to be L33T, my own dps has wandered between 10k to 20k (as much as 40k in aoe trash situations, but everyone tells me that that doesn't count for ***) ...and I've actually spent some time reading guides and builds and whatnot...

The above three are mostly factual, in that these are things people have actually CLAIMED, or that I have personally experienced (not facts in that they represent ALL ESO players or anything like that)

question #1 - if the above are TRUE, then wouldn't that mean that the divide between "casual" players, with lets say a generous dps ceiling of somewhere between 10-15k dps, and L33T players, with averages of 45k to 65k, is...well...TITANIC?

Now, if we assume that the above is anywhere *near* true, then the people creating content for the game, have to create content that is at least REASONABLY accessible to players at the 15k dps range, while trying to create content that is anywhere near challenging for players at the 45k and upwards dps range?

if it were me...I'm just sayin'...then, I'm not sure that the HUGE gap between top-tier players and casual players could possibly be bridged in any reliable way by any single amount of content...

which means you suddenly have the dev team essentially creating content for 2 populations of the MMO game (in this case, ESO) - 1, creating content that's accessible but still moderately fun for people in the 10k-20k dps range, and then a second..."version"...of the game for the relatively niche group of players at the 40K+ range.

Isn't that...A BAD WAY TO BUILD AN MMO?...I mean, doesn't it really...skew...development resources in a really, really bad direction? You essentially have to build content for 2 populations within your MMO, and one of those populations represents a fairly small fraction of your population...

so, the radical question I pose, becomes...wouldn't ESO, overall, as a total game, be far, FAR better off - healthier, more fun for everyone - if they found a way to significantly lower the gap between upper dps and lower dps, so that casual players were still doing 10-15k dps (or less in some cases

) and upper tiers were still only doing 30k-ish dps? I mean, wouldn't we ALL have a more challenging game if they balanced outgoing damage factors so that there was ONLY roughly a 100% gap between lower tier dps and upper tier dps, instead of 400% or more?

and I say "more fun for everyone" in the sense that massive super-high dps'ers STILL, to this very day, complain about the game being too easy. I mean, once you've jacked your DPS up to 60k, do you really have any right to complain that the game is too easy? Didn't you DELIBERATELY SET OUT TO MAKE THE GAME TOO EASY?...

*sigh*...point is, and I'm serious about this - wouldn't ESO as a whole, be better served by dropping the gap between the borderline crazy compulsive dps min-maxers, and the casual population? I'm not kidding - wouldn't even the super dps'ers be more satisfied by a higher degree of moment-to-moment challenge, if we narrowed down the range of features and synergies the min-maxers had to up their damage.

what if every synergy between armor and skill yielded only 100 extra dps instead of 1000? Would the min-maxers stop min-maxing? of course not. Many of them would *** up and down the street, but they wouldn't stop min-maxing. they'd eke out every last 10 dps they could find, and that would be okay, because the gap between the casuals and the ultra-elite of the min maxers would still only be about 15k dps...which means the min maxers would still get to enjoy the benefits of wasting everything twice as fast as the filthy care-bear casuals while still having at least a modicum of a challenge, while the same content would be more or less accessible to the casuals, they'd just have to fight harder, longer, and with a greater degree of precision.

seriously...wouldn't that be better? Honest question...

pod88kk · May 2018

I think there's so many hardmodes & difficult achievements that it keeps the high end players coming back for more. Plus leaderboards create a healthy competition for bragging rights throughout the community.

Nebthet78 · May 2018

I know I'll get crapped down on this by a lot of top tier players, but I believe the only way that ZOS is ever going to successfully close that gap is to take out the ability to animation cancel.

I can weave light and heavy attacks when playing in trials, but I can't animation cancel. I use a third party (ps3) controller and it does not allow me to animation cancel at all. I also do not have a keyboard or gamepad that allows me to set macros, which a lot of players do use in trials to do their animation cancelling for them.

I can do a rotation that is set out by some of the top players, with the exception of the animation cancelling which makes my rotation slower and therefore my dps much, much lower than a top tier players who can do both cancelling and weaving flawlessly.

The changes they made prior, to both sustain and otherwise did absolutely nothing to lower the ceiling, it only switched it up in addition to hurting the DPS of the more casual players.

Sadly though, ZOS don't understand their original code enough to be able to remove animation cancelling from the game, so they called it a feature.

phermitgb · May 2018

pod88kk wrote: »

I think there's so many hardmodes & difficult achievements that it keeps the high end players coming back for more. Plus leaderboards create a healthy competition for bragging rights throughout the community.

you're not wrong...

I find leaderboards and "first completions" to be nothing but vanity...and I *personally* apply zero-value to anything vanity-related (even vanity pets, of which I own several but not through any particular choice of mine)

yes, the hard mode completions, leaderboards, first-evers (although that's more forum bragging), and speed runs /score trials do offer the...sure, we can call them the "high-end" players...something to go for, an astonishing number of them still find time to fill up the forums with their ***-threads.

"I deserve better gear rewards for my hard earned 65k + dps run"
"I deserve better vanity skins than the 15k dps'ers for my 60k dps run"
"why isn't there gear that only 45k dps'ers can get that will raise our dps another 5k?"
"overland content is too easy"...

and so on.

my point is, between the extent to which these players have pushed the mechanics of the system, and the demands they make ON the system to reward them for the ways in which they've skewed the number ranges of the game, I feel like they're creating the very problems they're constantly complaining about

if ZOS dedicated some resources to rolling back how much dps synergy was created between weaving, animation cancelling, gear sets and skill synergies (I'm not talking solely about the activateable synergies), I'm wondering if the hard core players wouldn't actually get what they *say* they WANT (namely, more challenging content) while still being able to create content that casual players can successfully access, just so long as they work a little harder to do so

I guess my point is, I DON'T WANT TWO ESO'S - ONE FOR HARDCORE PLAYERS, AND ONE FOR CASUALS...I want to be able to play in the same world with both groups, and accept that one will require more focus and effort than the other, but not so TITANICALLY SO that I have to live a completely different lifestyle to mesh the two together. I'm not afraid of spending SOME time and effort getting better, more focused, more precisely defined - I just object to creating a gap so HUGE and EXCLUSIVE that developers ultimately have to create 2 entirely different sets of content to make content challenging AND accessible to both kinds of populations...

phermitgb · May 2018

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I know I'll get crapped down on this by a lot of top tier players, but I believe the only way that ZOS is ever going to successfully close that gap is to take out the ability to animation cancel.

I can weave light and heavy attacks when playing in trials, but I can't animation cancel. I use a third party (ps3) controller and it does not allow me to animation cancel at all. I also do not have a keyboard or gamepad that allows me to set macros, which a lot of players do use in trials to do their animation cancelling for them.

I can do a rotation that is set out by some of the top players, with the exception of the animation cancelling which makes my rotation slower and therefore my dps much, much lower than a top tier players who can do both cancelling and weaving flawlessly.

The changes they made prior, to both sustain and otherwise did absolutely nothing to lower the ceiling, it only switched it up in addition to hurting the DPS of the more casual players.

Sadly though, ZOS don't understand their original code enough to be able to remove animation cancelling from the game, so they called it a feature.

yes, you probably will get crapped on for daring to mention the "it's not a bug, IT'S A FEATURE" aspect of animation cancelling, but it's my personal suspicion that animation cancelling is a key factor in dps disparity.

basically, you have a group of players that see the game as a series of game mechanics - in their eyes, animation cancelling is yet one more mechanical barrier/skill in which to maximize the effectiveness of their character.

there's nothing inherently wrong with this. These people are just interested in finding ways to maximize the efficiency of a system, and the system has provided them with this particular tool.

the problem, I FEEL (and I'll be the first person to admit that I don't know this for sure...it's just a suspicion) - is that animation cancelling, along with max stam/magicka determining base damage value, and a variety of other gear/set/skill synergies, is chiefly responsible for the TITANIC dps gap between "casuals" and "hard core" players. and let's be fair, it IS...TITANIC.

I'm telling you, I'm a reasonably adept, reasonably experienced MMO player - the vast majority of my day-to-day dps before I actually started studying "builds" and whatnot hovered nicely around 10k dps, and that was enough to do most content (group dungeons being modestly difficult). I started studying "builds" and actually tracked me down a set of blue spriggans gear, and my avg dps jumped to 20k nearly overnight.

Mind you, in the grand scheme of things, 20k is a FRACTION of hardcore dps. I nearly doubled my dps overnight, and it still couldn't TOUCH top tier dps.

the gap is TITANIC, and I'm not complaining because I give a damn about my own dps - I honestly, personally, wonder...from the point of view of a developer...how...HOW...would I BUILD A NEW ZONE/TRIAL/DUNGEON for ESO...if I had to build content for a four man group doing collectively lets say 100k dps (2 40k dd's and a healer and a tank) vs a 50k dps group (2 casual dd's plus a tank and healer) ?

I honestly feel that "L33T" players are the ones skewing the game, and that ESO might actually make EVERYONE, super-hardcore dps'ers included...HAPPIER...if they found a way to scale back dps sources

HeathenDeacon · May 2018

phermitgb wrote: »

so, for the longest time, I've wondered...I have no data to support my suspicion, just a semi-logical chain of thought...

Fact - #1 - many, many people complain that ESO overland content (quest bosses, delves, world bosses, even most basic dungeons) are too easy (it's a FACT that many people complain - whether or not it is or isn't is more debateable)
#2 - top tier dps often quotes dps ranges between 45k dps and 65k dps...
#3 - as an experienced MMO player with very little drive to be L33T, my own dps has wandered between 10k to 20k (as much as 40k in aoe trash situations, but everyone tells me that that doesn't count for ***) ...and I've actually spent some time reading guides and builds and whatnot...

The above three are mostly factual, in that these are things people have actually CLAIMED, or that I have personally experienced (not facts in that they represent ALL ESO players or anything like that)

question #1 - if the above are TRUE, then wouldn't that mean that the divide between "casual" players, with lets say a generous dps ceiling of somewhere between 10-15k dps, and L33T players, with averages of 45k to 65k, is...well...TITANIC?

Now, if we assume that the above is anywhere *near* true, then the people creating content for the game, have to create content that is at least REASONABLY accessible to players at the 15k dps range, while trying to create content that is anywhere near challenging for players at the 45k and upwards dps range?

if it were me...I'm just sayin'...then, I'm not sure that the HUGE gap between top-tier players and casual players could possibly be bridged in any reliable way by any single amount of content...

which means you suddenly have the dev team essentially creating content for 2 populations of the MMO game (in this case, ESO) - 1, creating content that's accessible but still moderately fun for people in the 10k-20k dps range, and then a second..."version"...of the game for the relatively niche group of players at the 40K+ range.

Isn't that...A BAD WAY TO BUILD AN MMO?...I mean, doesn't it really...skew...development resources in a really, really bad direction? You essentially have to build content for 2 populations within your MMO, and one of those populations represents a fairly small fraction of your population...

so, the radical question I pose, becomes...wouldn't ESO, overall, as a total game, be far, FAR better off - healthier, more fun for everyone - if they found a way to significantly lower the gap between upper dps and lower dps, so that casual players were still doing 10-15k dps (or less in some cases ) and upper tiers were still only doing 30k-ish dps? I mean, wouldn't we ALL have a more challenging game if they balanced outgoing damage factors so that there was ONLY roughly a 100% gap between lower tier dps and upper tier dps, instead of 400% or more?

and I say "more fun for everyone" in the sense that massive super-high dps'ers STILL, to this very day, complain about the game being too easy. I mean, once you've jacked your DPS up to 60k, do you really have any right to complain that the game is too easy? Didn't you DELIBERATELY SET OUT TO MAKE THE GAME TOO EASY?...

*sigh*...point is, and I'm serious about this - wouldn't ESO as a whole, be better served by dropping the gap between the borderline crazy compulsive dps min-maxers, and the casual population? I'm not kidding - wouldn't even the super dps'ers be more satisfied by a higher degree of moment-to-moment challenge, if we narrowed down the range of features and synergies the min-maxers had to up their damage.

what if every synergy between armor and skill yielded only 100 extra dps instead of 1000? Would the min-maxers stop min-maxing? of course not. Many of them would *** up and down the street, but they wouldn't stop min-maxing. they'd eke out every last 10 dps they could find, and that would be okay, because the gap between the casuals and the ultra-elite of the min maxers would still only be about 15k dps...which means the min maxers would still get to enjoy the benefits of wasting everything twice as fast as the filthy care-bear casuals while still having at least a modicum of a challenge, while the same content would be more or less accessible to the casuals, they'd just have to fight harder, longer, and with a greater degree of precision.

seriously...wouldn't that be better? Honest question...

good post. I with most of what you're getting at.
I really can't comprehend the 'gap' and as much as i try i can't seem to cross that gap either evven though i feel like my rotations and knowledge should. I feel alot of It really just boils down to gear i can't get.
For some reason its just pve building for me too and i have no problem for the most part with top tier pvp.

I'm just coming back to the game but alot of the reason i left around HOTR had alot to do with this issue.
i had a pretty solid pve build before morrowind but then the resource nerf followed by the trait changes and some set nerfs and i couldnt put a build together.

Personally my BIGGEST complaint/issue is that i wish all Vet 4 man and solo content could be more reasonably completed with gear from THOSE instances ( or crafted), but it always seems like im supposed to have a trial set to complete some of that content.
Personally i don't like to run trials, and since the trial community on console has always been small i know i'm not alone with this issue.
Its annoying for me to watch all the builds come out each patch and every last one of them has a trial set in it.
Its really why i stick to pvp for my end game. I feel like with pve its not just a DPS gap but its the gap in CONTENT to get players from one tier of dps to the next.
Its just another symptom of ESO's pve's biggest issue- Non vertical progression.

Asardes · May 2018

They are allocating most of the resources towards the general population, who has a lower skill level, for example the typical DLC has a quest area with a dozen or so hours of questing, easy enemies and such, and a (mini)trial with various levels of difficulty, with the former taking up the bulk of the resources. And when designing a trial it's not that hard to design those. You just put less resistance and less damage on enemies for the normal and that's pretty much it. Normal trials are usually easy enough to be completed by pretty much anyone. And you can do 10-12K DPS by spamming heavy attack and nothing else, provide you have the right stats and adequate but basic gear; when adding 2 DoTs you're at 20K already. That's enough to easily clear normal mode trials, all normal dungeons and veteran non-DLC dungeons.

So I rate the old mantra "ZoS caters to elitists" as a pile of steaming guar dung.

Turelus · May 2018

There is clearly a huge gap and a lot of it is down to how the combat mechanics work, rotations etc.

ZOS continuing with light attack weave being the way you DD in the game is only going to further push players apart. The frustrating thing though is that moderately good players (like myself) are stuck in that area where normal content is to easy and hard content is too hard so there isn't much joy left in doing trials/dungeons.

Sadly the only response seems to be "git gud" as well.

phermitgb · May 2018

HeathenDeacon wrote: »

good post. I with most of what you're getting at.
I really can't comprehend the 'gap' and as much as i try i can't seem to cross that gap either evven though i feel like my rotations and knowledge should. I feel alot of It really just boils down to gear i can't get.
For some reason its just pve building for me too and i have no problem for the most part with top tier pvp.

I'm just coming back to the game but alot of the reason i left around HOTR had alot to do with this issue.
i had a pretty solid pve build before morrowind but then the resource nerf followed by the trait changes and some set nerfs and i couldnt put a build together.

Personally my BIGGEST complaint/issue is that i wish all Vet 4 man and solo content could be more reasonably completed with gear from THOSE instances ( or crafted), but it always seems like im supposed to have a trial set to complete some of that content.
Personally i don't like to run trials, and since the trial community on console has always been small i know i'm not alone with this issue.
Its annoying for me to watch all the builds come out each patch and every last one of them has a trial set in it.
Its really why i stick to pvp for my end game. I feel like with pve its not just a DPS gap but its the gap in CONTENT to get players from one tier of dps to the next.
Its just another symptom of ESO's pve's biggest issue- Non vertical progression.

so, with trials..
I'm lucky -I do most of my trials with my guild, and I've got a GREAT GUILD...not too intense on the dps requirements, not super-hardcore...and it turns out, we can successfully do normal trials easy, vet trials about 50/50.

regarding your issues with vet gear...yah, I get that...although

My experience is that SET gear is vastly more effective than TRIAL/VS/DUNGEON gear. Don't get me wrong. A complete set of EITHER tends to make a big difference. But, I've studied a lot of builds online, and most builds have approximately 3 (THREE) gear/set recommandations. (sp? I'm super drunk right now)

recommondations

there we go...point is...that most builds will have a crafted set recommandation, a zone/dungeon recommandation, and a trial recommandation - the difference between any of those sets will be a combination of basic #'s, and some synergies.

but the SUPER POINT is that if you can manage the crafted set (which anyone with a decent guild or a decent crafter char can manage) can manage to set yourself up for some avg trial performance

sonofabitch...I can't seem to spell recommandation correctly...I dunno what's wrong with me, I'm usually better than this

that or windows spellchecker is a piece of ***...

the important thing to take away from this is that...trial sets, most people will tell you add at best, 5-10% increase in whatever. crafter gear is FINE for anything but absolute min/max perfection, which, in my personal opinion, is worth less than the effort it takes to get there.

nnargun · May 2018

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself. For instance, squeezing one more HA+skill into my rotation and missing out on some uptime of my DOTs never crossed my mind but when I was told to do so it ultimately gave me like +5k DPS. At least. And I couldn't find that in any guide either (though there may have been one on the forums or what not).

Oh and another thing: Forget about animation cancelling completely. It's absolutely uselss in PVE except for for swap cancelling which you do unwillingly anyways while performing a proper rotation.

Also when testing DPS improvements do it on the target dummy, not trash fights, not boss fights, target dummy. And don't forget that anyone who performs a serious DPS test has major breach/fracture applied to the dummy which does a very big chunk of the DPS.

Uviryth · May 2018

DPS in ESO is so messed up, it isnt even funny anymore. Animation Canceling, Attack Weaving, Ground-Dotbased, heavily altered by single pieces of weaponry unobtainable to most players etc.....

Dont expect it to change, this game is pretty much a trainwreck at this time.

Turelus · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

phermitgb · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself. For instance, squeezing one more HA+skill into my rotation and missing out on some uptime of my DOTs never crossed my mind but when I was told to do so it ultimately gave me like +5k DPS. At least. And I couldn't find that in any guide either (though there may have been one on the forums or what not).

Oh and another thing: Forget about animation cancelling completely. It's absolutely uselss in PVE except for for swap cancelling which you do unwillingly anyways while performing a proper rotation.

Also when testing DPS improvements do it on the target dummy, not trash fights, not boss fights, target dummy. And don't forget that anyone who performs a serious DPS test has major breach/fracture applied to the dummy which does a very big chunk of the DPS.

so, curiously - I'm really tired, but still, I felt the need to respond to this
this is a helpful post...it's genuine, it's nice...I appreciate that
however, it's also kind of indicative of the fundamental problem I brought up with my OP
this is a guy that wants to IMPROVE MY DPS...past the 20k range..."teach you what to do better"...
I appreciate that - I actually do - no mocking involved...except that it s a indicator of the very problem I'm trying to highlight
the things I'd have to do...to learn...to OVERCOME my LACK OF DPS...
(and yes, there are people claiming 65k plus dps...I'm tired now, but if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll see about listing the previous threads I read regarding that dps tomorrow)
yes, it's quite possible to SQUEEZE an extra 5k dps by finding the right place in your rotation to add another heavy attack , or whatever...
the point is, that there is an ENTIRE SECTION OF THE MMO POPULATION THAT HAS EITHER NO DESIRE OR RESOURCE TO DEVOTE to being that effective - and yet still EXPECTS to enjoy MOST of the content the game has to provide

I appreciate that you take the time to support me, to try and elevate me to roughly the same level that you play at. But I hope that you recognize that at some level, I DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR EFFORT/ENERGY to devote to development of the game that you do, and yet EXPECT ** SOME DEGREE** of the same satisfaction out of the game that you expect. Not QUITE equivalent, but close.

and because of that, the effort that you ask of me to elevate to the position YOU ARE CURRENTLY AT seem excessive to *me*. and yet I still have at least SOME expectation that I am ENTITLED to enjoy the existing game content.

and THAT, at least to me, seems to be part of the fundamental DIVIDE between the hardcore players, and the "casual" players

nnargun · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

Pinja · May 2018

From what I've seen, late game pve L33T status can't be done solo. So for a bulk of solo or coupled players the content can't be done fluently. Imagine trying to have a 4some whenever u got on or wanted to play? It's unrealistic balancing...

nnargun · May 2018

phermitgb wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself. For instance, squeezing one more HA+skill into my rotation and missing out on some uptime of my DOTs never crossed my mind but when I was told to do so it ultimately gave me like +5k DPS. At least. And I couldn't find that in any guide either (though there may have been one on the forums or what not).

Oh and another thing: Forget about animation cancelling completely. It's absolutely uselss in PVE except for for swap cancelling which you do unwillingly anyways while performing a proper rotation.

Also when testing DPS improvements do it on the target dummy, not trash fights, not boss fights, target dummy. And don't forget that anyone who performs a serious DPS test has major breach/fracture applied to the dummy which does a very big chunk of the DPS.

so, curiously - I'm really tired, but still, I felt the need to respond to this
this is a helpful post...it's genuine, it's nice...I appreciate that
however, it's also kind of indicative of the fundamental problem I brought up with my OP
this is a guy that wants to IMPROVE MY DPS...past the 20k range..."teach you what to do better"...
I appreciate that - I actually do - no mocking involved...except that it s a indicator of the very problem I'm trying to highlight
the things I'd have to do...to learn...to OVERCOME my LACK OF DPS...
(and yes, there are people claiming 65k plus dps...I'm tired now, but if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll see about listing the previous threads I read regarding that dps tomorrow)
yes, it's quite possible to SQUEEZE an extra 5k dps by finding the right place in your rotation to add another heavy attack , or whatever...
the point is, that there is an ENTIRE SECTION OF THE MMO POPULATION THAT HAS EITHER NO DESIRE OR RESOURCE TO DEVOTE to being that effective - and yet still EXPECTS to enjoy MOST of the content the game has to provide

I appreciate that you take the time to support me, to try and elevate me to roughly the same level that you play at. But I hope that you recognize that at some level, I DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR EFFORT/ENERGY to devote to development of the game that you do, and yet EXPECT ** SOME DEGREE** of the same satisfaction out of the game that you expect. Not QUITE equivalent, but close.

and because of that, the effort that you ask of me to elevate to the position YOU ARE CURRENTLY AT seem excessive to *me*. and yet I still have at least SOME expectation that I am ENTITLED to enjoy the existing game content.

and THAT, at least to me, seems to be part of the fundamental DIVIDE between the hardcore players, and the "casual" players

I would actually be interested in seeing someone doing 65k self-buffed on single target. Not saying it couldn't be possible in summerset but it does seem very high. Top tier StamNBs were doing what last patch? 50-55k tops. MagSorcs more like 40k. Mag toons definitely parse higher this patch, for stam I haven't really tested yet.

A question though: How would you design content that is equally appealing for top tier players and the casual dudes without adjusting difficulty between them? I would think it's not possible. There could be a third medium difficulty for instanced content but is that what you want? Wouldn't you then want to be able to also complete the highest difficulty and get those skins and what not? Or should everybody just get access to everything? Like nomral Maelstrom starts dropping vMA weapons, normal AS starts dropping perfected weapons etc.? Shouldn't there be some kind of gratification for progression?

Turelus · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Mureel · May 2018

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I know I'll get crapped down on this by a lot of top tier players, but I believe the only way that ZOS is ever going to successfully close that gap is to take out the ability to animation cancel.

I can weave light and heavy attacks when playing in trials, but I can't animation cancel. I use a third party (ps3) controller and it does not allow me to animation cancel at all. I also do not have a keyboard or gamepad that allows me to set macros, which a lot of players do use in trials to do their animation cancelling for them.

I can do a rotation that is set out by some of the top players, with the exception of the animation cancelling which makes my rotation slower and therefore my dps much, much lower than a top tier players who can do both cancelling and weaving flawlessly.

The changes they made prior, to both sustain and otherwise did absolutely nothing to lower the ceiling, it only switched it up in addition to hurting the DPS of the more casual players.

Sadly though, ZOS don't understand their original code enough to be able to remove animation cancelling from the game, so they called it a feature.

You can't because you do not try and don't know how. That's not can't, that's actually won't.

If you can click a mouse key, then a keyboard key, you CAN animation cancel. If you practise every day this, you will become very good.

No one good uses macros for that. Macros would limit you badly rather than helping you.

nnargun · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

There are several easy ways to bridge the gap:

1. Allow players to disable CP without paying 3000g + having to reallocate all their points every time they want to do it
2. Create normal and vet modes of all instanced content (delves, public dungeons, and solo quests); this is as easy as just cranking up mob damage, health, and resistance to something you would find in a normal group dungeon, for example

Also, OP, 10-20k DPS is more than enough to clear overland content with a blindfold on. I will often times just spam light attacks as I run through a quest. That's how weak overland mobs are. That isn't the result of some "DPS gap". In fact, you can probably kill every delve boss in the game by just light attacking.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect punishing difficulty from overland content. I just want some resistance from enemies.

Here is me fighting some trash mobs. It takes 2 mobs nearly one whole minute to kill me. I'm not healing, mitigating, blocking, or dodging. I'm just standing in front of them. Then I dispatch of them with 2 hits from a spammable ability. No weaving or animation cancelling was used. Gear was all crafted/bought from traders (no end game trials/dungeon gear). The noobiest player in the game can achieve these results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6FFj68_BBc

Turelus · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

I believe at this point it's a very large part of a DPS rotation, more so after Summerset and the buff in damage.
Whilst content could be achievable without it in a practice and patient group I believe the new content had some higher expectations of damage than one can achieve without it. Especially speed run achievements.

Also I would imagine it varies by class, Nightblade (sadly my main) is one of the worse culprits for requiring light attack weaving due to it being how they proc damage skills and sustain themselves.
I would probably have a better time if I changed class but four years into the game I don't really want to do everything again on a new character (unless they give me a necromancer).

I understand I just sound whiny and I do understand the "git gud" argument to an extent, but my grumblings come from formally being able to achieve the best content and slowly being locked out of more and more as the DPS expectations increased over mechanics which I can't "git gud" at.

thestud2012 · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

The impact depends on your build. My main character boosted DPS significantly after this patch, but that makes sense because LA was buffed, Bound Arms bonus was changed from HA to LA, bow counts as 2 pieces so I was able to add weapon damage, and the Psijic Order skill Imbue Weapon rocks. My magic based characters are more difficult to weave. Something seems clunky.

nnargun · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

I believe at this point it's a very large part of a DPS rotation, more so after Summerset and the buff in damage.
Whilst content could be achievable without it in a practice and patient group I believe the new content had some higher expectations of damage than one can achieve without it. Especially speed run achievements.

Also I would imagine it varies by class, Nightblade (sadly my main) is one of the worse culprits for requiring light attack weaving due to it being how they proc damage skills and sustain themselves.
I would probably have a better time if I changed class but four years into the game I don't really want to do everything again on a new character (unless they give me a necromancer).

I understand I just sound whiny and I do understand the "git gud" argument to an extent, but my grumblings come from formally being able to achieve the best content and slowly being locked out of more and more as the DPS expectations increased over mechanics which I can't "git gud" at.

Of course, didn't consider the bow proc. So for Blades it's probably crucial but on MagSorc for instance I don't really expect to drop more than 5-6k which would be acceptable as the ceiling is quite high atm.

But as you say, there is solution for this: don't play the hardest class in the game :P

Turelus · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

I believe at this point it's a very large part of a DPS rotation, more so after Summerset and the buff in damage.
Whilst content could be achievable without it in a practice and patient group I believe the new content had some higher expectations of damage than one can achieve without it. Especially speed run achievements.

Also I would imagine it varies by class, Nightblade (sadly my main) is one of the worse culprits for requiring light attack weaving due to it being how they proc damage skills and sustain themselves.
I would probably have a better time if I changed class but four years into the game I don't really want to do everything again on a new character (unless they give me a necromancer).

I understand I just sound whiny and I do understand the "git gud" argument to an extent, but my grumblings come from formally being able to achieve the best content and slowly being locked out of more and more as the DPS expectations increased over mechanics which I can't "git gud" at.

Of course, didn't consider the bow proc. So for Blades it's probably crucial but on MagSorc for instance I don't really expect to drop more than 5-6k which would be acceptable as the ceiling is quite high atm.

But as you say, there is solution for this: don't play the hardest class in the game :P

Well no one told me we would be here four years ago when I rolled the character under "play whatever you want"
I'll see how things continue to develop, if it does get to the point where I can't continue with that character then I will just find to find something else to play for trials, however I would prefer to keep achievements and unlocks to the one character.

Asardes · May 2018

LA weave is ~5K DPS on most builds, but it's much more important on NB since you can't proc the spectral bow without it, and that's one of your hardest hitting skills; also your sustain will take a big hit because you don't get resources back from siphoning. So if you play anything but NB, you can still do decent DPS even if your LA weave is hit and miss. HA weave is much easier, since you just need to keep pushing the attack button and hit skills when animation is about half way through. I don't have very nimble fingers (I need more practice) and my FPS in trials can dip into the single digits and get frequent freezes and 999 ping spikes so I run HA rotations on front bar on most of my characters since those are not that sensitive to stutter and lag. I don't hit stelar DPS due mostly to bad placement as a result of insufficient knowledge of mechanics, but I can still hit 30K+ on dummy and 40K+ on trial bosses on stamina characters and a bit less on magicka. That's perfectly adequate for finishing all content in the game, providing you properly do the mechanics. There's literally no excuse for having CP300+ and still hitting 20K or under, regardless how bad your game performs, how bad your internet is (and you don't play NB). It's entirely L2P, and that includes adopting a rotation that you can actually execute. People with very low skill level attempting complicated, dynamic rotation they saw on youtube and failing miserably before they even get the basics is one way not to do it.

Linaleah · May 2018

so today, my character died in couple of seconds, becasue I was stuck on that stupid crown store add thing, and loaded into a delve where a trash mob next to me kill me, while I was loading in and trying to escape out of the damn thing. but sure... no resistance. not in my experience.

anyways, to OP, contrary to some of the claims in this thread, weaving is absolutely crucial. gear makes a difference but not nearly as much difference as perfect tight rotation with weaving.

and as long as this game doesn't feature global cooldown and does feature animation canceling via weaving? dps disparity will only keep growing.

because. yeah.. this game is heavily reliant on skill. too bad that for most people that degree of skill is completely out of their reach. reducing skill cap will make the game less fun to people at the top, while still not bridging the gap completely.

I honestly don't have a solution other then bringing back some approximation of veteran zones for higher skill players. I have no solution for veteran dungeons being inaccessible for most people.

nnargun · May 2018

Linaleah wrote: »

so today, my character died in couple of seconds, becasue I was stuck on that stupid crown store add thing, and loaded into a delve where a trash mob next to me kill me, while I was loading in and trying to escape out of the damn thing. but sure... no resistance. not in my experience.

anyways, to OP, contrary to some of the claims in this thread, weaving is absolutely crucial. gear makes a difference but not nearly as much difference as perfect tight rotation with weaving.

and as long as this game doesn't feature global cooldown and does feature animation canceling via weaving? dps disparity will only keep growing.

because. yeah.. this game is heavily reliant on skill. too bad that for most people that degree of skill is completely out of their reach. reducing skill cap will make the game less fun to people at the top, while still not bridging the gap completely.

I honestly don't have a solution other then bringing back some approximation of veteran zones for higher skill players. I have no solution for veteran dungeons being inaccessible for most people.

Oh come on. Reaching high DPS on MagSorc really isn't that hard. It's a five skill rotation with only 3 LAs and 2 HAs. Train that for 2 hours straight and you will reach >30k dps easy. Don't wanna train? Don't wanna achieve then. Anybody who doesn't have severe pain in their fingers can learn that. I have met complete noobs who got flawless conquerer two months after I met them. You gotta practice. Git gud gets really old but it's just too true. And as someone above said, don't start with hardest rotation in the game and get discouraged.
When I first cleared vMA it was one of the strongest feelings I've had in my life. I was literally shaking for minutes. Would it have touched me as much if it had taken me only 10 instead of 400 tries? Almost the same great feeling when I got flawless 20 clears later. Imo you should try to grow as a player or you won't get the most out of this game. At least not if completing hard content is what you wanna do. Or what is it that you want exactly?

Jameliel · May 2018

It's the entire combat system based on limited skill slots and bar swapping. It's accepted because it's either that or don't play. It will go down in history as a clunky system, and doesn't measure up with the all-time greats.

nnargun · May 2018

Jameliel wrote: »

It's the entire combat system based on limited skill slots and bar swapping. It's accepted because it's either that or don't play. It will go down in history as a clunky system, and doesn't measure up with the all-time greats.

Many people love the combat system. It's what makes this game so awesome imo.

edit: what makes it clunky is using a 2-button mouse

Linaleah · May 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

so today, my character died in couple of seconds, becasue I was stuck on that stupid crown store add thing, and loaded into a delve where a trash mob next to me kill me, while I was loading in and trying to escape out of the damn thing. but sure... no resistance. not in my experience.

anyways, to OP, contrary to some of the claims in this thread, weaving is absolutely crucial. gear makes a difference but not nearly as much difference as perfect tight rotation with weaving.

and as long as this game doesn't feature global cooldown and does feature animation canceling via weaving? dps disparity will only keep growing.

because. yeah.. this game is heavily reliant on skill. too bad that for most people that degree of skill is completely out of their reach. reducing skill cap will make the game less fun to people at the top, while still not bridging the gap completely.

I honestly don't have a solution other then bringing back some approximation of veteran zones for higher skill players. I have no solution for veteran dungeons being inaccessible for most people.

Oh come on. Reaching high DPS on MagSorc really isn't that hard. It's a five skill rotation with only 3 LAs and 2 HAs. Train that for 2 hours straight and you will reach >30k dps easy. Don't wanna train? Don't wanna achieve then. Anybody who doesn't have severe pain in their fingers can learn that. I have met complete noobs who got flawless conquerer two months after I met them. You gotta practice. Git gud gets really old but it's just too true. And as someone above said, don't start with hardest rotation in the game and get discouraged.
When I first cleared vMA it was one of the strongest feelings I've had in my life. I was literally shaking for minutes. Would it have touched me as much if it had taken me only 10 instead of 400 tries? Almost the same great feeling when I got flawless 20 clears later. Imo you should try to grow as a player or you won't get the most out of this game. At least not if completing hard content is what you wanna do. Or what is it that you want exactly?

and yet. here we are. i cannot achieve it. I have tried (I have 2 of each class, one magika and stam so i HAVE tried practicing various rotations on my sor,c including the infamous one bar rotation). i cannot. i don't have dexterity. i don't touch type and looking down at your keyboard constantly slows you down considerably. i have aim issues and no matter how much i play or practice - i continue to have aim issues on moving targets. the timing to get weaving while actualy hitting abilities quickly - eludes me. i can either weave very slowly which makes for crap dps, or mess up rotation - which makes for crap dps. and i'm actualy not even remotely the worst player you'll ever meet, in fact, i'm more or less in the middle of the pack, becasue i actualy bother to follow mechanics of the fights and not stand in bad as well as look up and adopt builds etc.

that you met noobs who got much better with practice does not change the fact that for most people its STILL inaccessible

also... having to spend good lor how much time? to fail 400 times before you finally get something? for some people that's what makes it fun, for the rest of us? its THE DEFINITION OF A NIGHTMARE. and herein lays a problem. if the game requires this kind of dedication to "git gud"? Skill gap and dps gap will CONTINUE to increase

P.S. there are very few things in life I'm willing to fail that much before i succeed. i can count them on one hand in fact. NONE of them are in any way shape or form have anything to do with video games. why? becasue video games are a hobby. not a vocation. not a job or a career. not my calling. a hobby

as for what i want? I want majority of the game to stay at the exact difficulty it is right now. I'm not the one complaining that its too easy, asking for the difficulty to be increased. i'm the one who wants it to stay where it is.

NoTimeToWait · May 2018

Now this one I could totally agree with.

Being an aspiring PVE endgame warden who could do 25k DPS at any given moment even in the middle of the night with an ambition to be the best, well, at least better than mediocre... I could say that the gap is indeed there and when you make a transition to the other (endgame) side it feels like a different game.

And the latest changes seem to up DPS for light attack spamming casuals which will bring the lower bound a bit closer to median but on the other hand it is going to widen the gap even further

My only choice was to switch to Sorc (which I did), and now I am standing in front of another choice: switching to nightblade because they are going to kickass. And I really don't want to