dps gap may cause game development gap?

Feanor

Why would the game be more fun for everyone if the DPS gap is made artificially smaller? All this would achieve is a pat on the back for the casuals.

Turelus

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ilikepickles wrote: »

Given how few people exist at that top tier, the best business strategy would be to completely ignore that upper 2%.
The elites aren't as important as they'd like you to believe.

I don't think they should be ignored, but we shouldn't aim to balance content around them.

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

Turelus If it’s a physical limitation, like light attack weaves annoying your hands or something, I highly recommend a Heavy Attack rotation. You can easily complete all content this way with the exception of a few Hard Mode trials.

I’m trying to be productive here btw. I really do recommend you do this if you haven’t yet given it a shot. Mag Sorc is likely the best choice.

I have and I understand I am the biggest problem in this (by not changing class/build) but it's just frustrating to no longer be able to do what I did in the past (even hard mode trials) because they embraced a combat system which isn't overly friendly to all.

Biggest reason I don't just change is because I've invested 4 years into my Nightblade and it's a lot to redo. Easier to complain on the forums.
If there is a good MagBlade heavy attack feel free to DM me a link though.

NB benefits probably more than other classes from Light attacks With that said I still don’t see why it wouldn’t be doable. Especially now with Staves counting as two set pieces, Damage should be high enough.

Ofc Sorc would still pull better numbers, but as a NB it shouldn’t feel too bad.

Yup. As I said previously though when I joined the game there was nothing to say that light attack weave was a required mechanic to play a Nightblade DD, but now we're at this point I am too invested to want to change (unless Necromancer).

Well that’s something we can both agree on. I really don’t like the focus on light attacks as of late. They’ve become far too important in raw damage and encouraged via sets, skill passive benefits, enchant buffs, etc. Not only would you lose like 25% or more of your DPS for not light attacking, but you’d also lose out on the capability of even using a lot of high-end sets or specific skills. In the end, the DPS loss for not perfectly weaving is much higher than in the past.

Right and this is where I am starting to have issues with the system (as well as the boss health pools and time requirements for speed runs).

In the past a good player being able to weave very well got you a smaller but competitive edge, now it's becoming a standardised mechanic and balanced around it leaves everyone who can't do it very well in the dirt or forced to run builds which can't clear the hardest content.

I'm not asking for any weave removal or saying top trials guilds shouldn't be allowed to be good, only that I preferred the days when mid teir or lower good players (myself) could clear all the trials and hardmodes with some work, without being forced into 40K+ DPS requirements.

Feanor

@Turelus

Trial Progression guilds demand 35k+ simply because they can. It’s not that the content really requires that, it’s just that it gets much easier if your 8 DDs bring it to the table.

Linaleah

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

Turelus

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus

Trial Progression guilds demand 35k+ simply because they can. It’s not that the content really requires that, it’s just that it gets much easier if your 8 DDs bring it to the table.

I know, my weekly group is a mix of 25-40k players and we can clear the content. The issue is that because mechanics have become so unforgiving or speed runs so expecting of the higher end numbers it's frustrating for groups like mine.

The example my raid lead keeps giving currently is the second boss of vHoF where sure it's possible with everyone at 25k DPS, but you have to play the mechanics so much and one screw up there (especially from the tank) is basically game over.

Maybe I should just stop posting and whining.

Cously

Ok so this won't be popular but to Oblivion with it. This request sounds like communism! Some guys produce more because their hard work and skill and I can't produce nearly as much as them so let's take their numbers away and make everyone equally mediocre...

Playing from Brazil my ping is atrocious, on a good night the average latency is 450

Boy, try to dps in eso with weapon swap, animation cancelling and weaving with that ping. The whole thing is clunky, ugly and frustrating. That never stopped me from completing trials on hard mode because...I'd just gear my DK as tank since it used to be forgiving to high latency players with perma block. You know, if you lack on an area you can still have fun by making do.

Anyways tank became such a misery that I got my breton (*** stamina choice) to be a stam dk and dps. It's outrageous, I can't go past 25k dps even doing my best. I never will go past that unless I move to the US. It's unfair, sucks but oh well I won't resent the guys who can pull huge numbers nor try to take their advantage away.

The great fix for me would be get rid of weapon swap and have your second weapon like on another skill bar beside your main bar. But that's never happening because console peasants. I can't expect them to tailor the game thinking of high latency latinos.

If you can't pull great dps because disabilities well...I don't think what they could do to alleviate it anyways. It's unfair you are disabled but that's the minority. 90% of the game is designed for casuals and the rest few % for pvpers (rip lol) and pvers. Are we to ignore their fun just because they are minority? Hmm...

Easy difficult is potato and hard one is nightmare (for the average player). I think another solution would be a mid tier. Also yes DPS shouldn't be what make or break a dungeon but understanding of mechanics (like many bosses get a golden bar you can't damage them and are forced to do mechanics to keep killing it). IMO much more fun to focus on mechanics than boring rotations.

Finally, games like MMOs (they wanna be sandboxes) will focus on try to please X amount of populations, that is normal and is what ZOS do. PVPers, PVErs, Crafters, Traders, Roleplayers, etc everyone gets a bit of what they want and really there is nothing wrong with it. You want to do all them you will have to put more effort and make sacrifices (like change your role to tank/healer where you loathe playing it but your dps sucks).

TLDR: Git gud

BejaProphet

There is a DPS gap, there is not a developmental gap.

Yes, there is indeed a large gap though not nearly what the OP suggests. Nobody is throwing around 60k on average.
But the most important point is this: The extremely high DPS requirements in some circumstances is player imposed not game imposed.

If you can do 20k DPS I am absolutely confident I can tank you through ANY content in this game, assuming our other group members are at a similar level. And that is veteran content.

I have a small family guild. One member is a our sorcerer DPS. I set him up with an Alcast build, got him the gear, set his CP, taught him the rotation. I did EVERYTHING for him. And he struggles to hit 11k DPS. In fact, immediately after that he forgot the rotation and is back down to 8k. I took him to Fang Lair where he is our HIGHEST DPS in the group. We learn the mechanics and we win.

You are not locked out of any content by the game, only by players who won't play with you. Now I will admit that was normal difficulty. But what did you want? Did you want to experience all the content? Or do you want to be able to do every difficulty version of the exact same content? That's at 8k dps.

If you can do 20k, I can get your through anything in veteran difficulty. The only thing you might can not do, is Veteran DLC trials. The three base game veteran trials you can do at 20k dos for sure. If you can do 30K you can do the DLC vet trials for sure. The ONLY thing keeping you out is players who expect more than the game does because they want to get high score board runs.

No dungeon requires the amount of DPS these people bring to bear. When the Vet scoreboard trial people I was running with ran Vet Scalecaller for the first time, and they actually brought that kind of DPS to bear on it, they absolutely obliterated and trivialized it though I was explaining fights to them for the first time. The game does not design content for them at all.

The game is all yours at 20k. Only things rejecting you at that level are players.

XiDiabolismiX

I think you have a very valid post going on here, mostly because it shows the disparity between two groups of players.

In all honesty though, people need to come to the realization that there will always be a lower tier and a top tier in any kind of game. When you play it long enough and put in the work, it’s going to show, in this case in dps.

I believe this game to be extremely balanced in the way it is created and developed. For people in the lower, or casual, tier there is such a rich environment full of great challenges that will keep you entertained for a long time. On the other hand, the people who are pushing those high dps numbers are people dedicated to what they do in game, whether it’s trials/dungeons or pvp. It’s their way of playing and enjoying the game, and if they choose to complain about unchallenging gameplay then maybe they need to take a step back or try something new. Remember, it’s just their opinion.

Anyways, my point is that no matter what game you play, there will always be amazing players that push the boundaries of the game. And there will always be casual people that play it at their own pace, and that’s fine too.

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

Kuwhar

XiDiabolismiX wrote: »

I think you have a very valid post going on here, mostly because it shows the disparity between two groups of players.

In all honesty though, people need to come to the realization that there will always be a lower tier and a top tier in any kind of game. When you play it long enough and put in the work, it’s going to show, in this case in dps.

I believe this game to be extremely balanced in the way it is created and developed. For people in the lower, or casual, tier there is such a rich environment full of great challenges that will keep you entertained for a long time. On the other hand, the people who are pushing those high dps numbers are people dedicated to what they do in game, whether it’s trials/dungeons or pvp. It’s their way of playing and enjoying the game, and if they choose to complain about unchallenging gameplay then maybe they need to take a step back or try something new. Remember, it’s just their opinion.

Anyways, my point is that no matter what game you play, there will always be amazing players that push the boundaries of the game. And there will always be casual people that play it at their own pace, and that’s fine too.

That's really the best way to look at it.

Much like every other game in TES series, if you want to min-max break the game; you can.

If you want to take it easy not get crazy into numbers, builds and min-max; you can.

Linaleah

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

jcm2606

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

Start, not stuck. A lot of people start off barely pulling 5-10k, which is a harder problem to solve than just changing skills & gear. That's what he was saying.

kylewwefan

Let The role players get carried through everything....you know. I dont know? A few things to address here.

If you really think animation cancelling is the main problem, you don’t know enough about animation cancelling. The very little I know about it, I don’t want them to take it out of the game or change anything.
You’re probably likely doing it also just not realizing that you just animation cancelled and definitely not using it to maximize the extent of your DPS.

It’s also not going to be enough to bring you from 20k to 25 or even 30k.

15 or 20k players aren’t so bad IMO. It’s the ones doing 5 to 7k where the tank or healer is quite literally doing more damage then the DD. This is a problem.

In that same notion, Players I’ve met that don’t know exactly what their DPS was are usually doing way way less than they seem to think they’re doing.

Overland content should be easy when running around in full legendary optimized gear.

You know who it’s just right for though.

The giant berserking Nord warrior straight out of the wailing prison waiving some huge battle axe around playing the game in first person view so he can see the look of horror on his enemy’s face as he pounds them into the dirt to reign victorious over their slain corpse.

This is as filthy Casual as it gets and what the game is being designed for. It’s what gets players hooked and coming into the game for.

The normal game does it best.

Then it falls apart in vet.

All of a sudden your 2H heavy armor warrior has poopoo damage. The fights take forever. Your light and heavy attack with skill mixed in when they feel right just doesn’t work anymore. You need to optimize your build. Start doing some rotation. Run with other like minded players. It’s only fun when everyone is on the same page.

Further down the line the game becomes more and more damage centric. You start doing vet content regularly and what was once fun is now pushed to the wayside of what can we do to get through the content the quickest most efficient means possible.

The normal stuff isn’t very rewarding or even that much fun anymore. You can just burn through it with relative ease.

Vet can be perilous though. Getting grouped up with players that aren’t there yet. You can’t carry that. It creates a miserable experience.

Asardes

The people that do <10K gear really need to drop that tanking gear. Seriously, I can see 4-6K "parses" in Combat Metrics on my DK in tank setup, and up to 10K on my warden "leecher" setup just doing the tanky things: Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash, HA, Cinder Storm/Gripping Shards etc.

nursingninja

What's going to happen is they are going to have to make the enemies scale higher than cp 160. That means making gear go up too. Watch everyone flip out on that day! Lol

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Granted I wasn't even close when this happened, but I got kicked out of Vet Scalecaller Peak because I was told I can't do 25k dps. I realize it's player imposed, but I'm tired of the gap being so high.

What contributes to the dps gap in this game, compared to other big-name MMOs:

1. Weaving - the whole concept of a light attack between many of / most of your abilities isn't a thing in like, any other MMO. At least, it's not a thing in any other MMO I've played. Other MMOs have enough common sense to just have auto attacks. Most players don't find having to manually attack between abilities fun or rewarding, it's just tedious and a little....erm..."artistic" (read between the lines there).

2. Resource regen - as some have pointed out, the Morrowind sustain changes generally made the game harder, because suddenly you need to factor a lot of sustain into builds or throw heavy attacks into your rotation. In most other MMOs, sustain isn't even a thing, and endgame characters can do normal, max dps rotations on dummies for 2 or 3 minutes without running out of resources. Throw in raid buffs, and it becomes a non-issue. Resource management isn't fun, isn't normal, and contributes heavily to the dps gap.

3. Animation cancelling - the effects of cancelling might have been reduced in recent updates, but it still contributes to a few thousand dps. That's a few thousand dps that most players will never have, because it isn't intuitive or easy to consistently clip your animations in live combat, while keeping track of enemy attacks and your own rotation. Ani cancelling is skillful in the same sense that playing a piano while juggling is skillful - technically true but incredibly dumb.

4. Everything has a short duration - seriously, 8s DoTs? Whose idea was that? Buffs / DoTs / etc in this game have ridiculously short timers, which makes rotations far more brutal and unforgiving. Manageable for the elite but impossible to consistently build a rotation around for casual players. And thus the dps gap widens even more.

5. The CP system - most players have at least a few hundred CP points, but as some have pointed out, each build demands different point allocations, and because this game is really bad at explaining which abilities deal which types of damage, I will guarantee that most players don't have their CP points allocated even somewhat correctly. It's a cool system that doesn't mesh well with the base game, but honestly this is the least problematic factor in the dps gap because you can just look up the proper allocation.


A lot of it just comes down to loopholes. Extraneous and not-so-obvious things that you're "supposed" to do to up your dps, that are flat-out impossible to do in other more well-built MMOs because of safeguards like a standard GCD and autoattacks. Other MMOs don't incorporate these things for a reason, guys. It's far more sensible to have high dps gated behind increasingly powerful gear than the ability to make your character seize up like an epileptic person watching the porygon episode of pokemon.

Feanor

@Crafts_Many_Boxes

Gating Power behind gear wouldn’t be different. Because the casuals couldn’t acquire said gear then (unless it’s in a P2W store). And you wouldn’t be left out if groups because you don’t do X DPS but because you don’t have weapon XY. In that sense it would be even worse.

There really is no other alternative to getting better if you want to have a meaningful differentiation between players.

Kiralyn2000

Hmm. Honestly, the "DPS gap" is larger than that, in respect to the "overland content is too easy" thing.

It's not between people who can perfectly cancel/weave/rotate for 50k+ and the folks who can't do it well at 15k.

That comparison leaves out the people who don't even have a "rotation", let alone a good build, and are cruising around overland content with below 10k.


So, yeah. There's a wide gap in the game between "l33t d00ds" and random shmoes. And it's why overland & quest content will always be "too easy" for the awesome. Because ZOS would like to make money, and balancing the entire game around high DPS would be suicide. Vet modes, hard modes, and trials are for awesome dudes; overland is for people using one weapon bar and no rotation.



--
...and hey, you want to see a DPS gap? Check out Star Trek Online, where the members of the "DPS league" (they have their own custom chat channels, with membership divided by which bracket of DPS you can do!) have logged 130-150k+ in test runs..... while people on the forums complain about being in bad PuGs with people doing under 5k.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Feanor wrote: »

@Crafts_Many_Boxes

Gating Power behind gear wouldn’t be different. Because the casuals couldn’t acquire said gear then (unless it’s in a P2W store). And you wouldn’t be left out if groups because you don’t do X DPS but because you don’t have weapon XY. In that sense it would be even worse.

There really is no other alternative to getting better if you want to have a meaningful differentiation between players.

Vertical progression is just a better system because gear actually players a role in the dps disparity, which it should. The best player and the worst player wearing the same gear using the same abilities should do maybe 30-50% different dps -- instead of the 300 or 400% we see in ESO today.

Casuals can start off in the low tier dungeons and trials / raids, then progress to get better gear to do more dps at their own pace. When they hit a wall, they can stop and then work to improve their rotations and such within that dps tier. They don't need to learn to act like a seizure victim or mash their keyboard every .5 seconds. The other added benefit is that there's actually a sense of getting stronger, instead of "oh, this new set is cool I guess. I did 250 more dps, which is certainly....a number. Hooray?" Once you hit a certain point, there's little / no excitement over getting new gear anymore in this game.

And don't get me wrong, for all my complaints, I do love this game. But the combat is a hot mess, and people need to start calling ZoS out for that.

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

nnargun

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

edit: Oh and do yourself a favor and get a mouse with at least 5-6 buttons if you don't have one already. I only activate buff skills on the keyboard. All attack skills as well as weapon swapping (right click) are on my mouse . I could never properly do rotation and play mechanics using 1-5 for skills and wasd for movement. Some people can but I think it's pretty crazy.

oops sorry for double post

Xuhora

@Crafts_Many_Boxes well what you are referring to are TAB-Target MMOs.
Sure while playing an action combat MMO there are more things to do: aiming, attacking, using skills, dodge mechanics... this game was advertised with its action combat, and for me, and many others i believe, this was the reason to start the game.
While TAB-targeting is alot easier to pull decent dmg, and thus reducing the gap between casual and good players, its just outright mindnumbingly boring.

And for the many others that say „ESO is balanced arround the top 2% players“
No, its not! The game is designed for as it should be: very easy overland, slightly harder public dungeons. Normal 4 man dungeons, that can be done by everyone!
And then there is VET-content. This is where the separation begins; you can still do it with 20k dps, you just have to be willing to learn mechanics...

The very top 2% are the 50 guys that fight for vet trial HM speedrun, no death... and thats fine. The lower 10-15% are doing vet trials with just HM, and then 30% doing vet trials without HM.
In my humble opinion, i think that is pretty fair? Because ALL the content is doable for 98% of the players...

Stewart1874

There is too much of a gap which is creating a massive divide. Nothing worse than hitting a personal best on a training dummy and the response when someone asks what DPS I had being 'Oh...'

I just don't get it. Animation cancelling maybe has a lot to do with it, as animations are part of the game surely they shouldn't be able to be cancelled without the ability also being cancelled?

Linaleah

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&amp;t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

Septimus_Magna

Generally speaking the dps gap keeps growing because the maximum dps ceiling is raised over time. The most noticeable factors are better gear sets, more CP and skill changes.

Experienced players are able to produce high dps because they know their build and rotation inside out. Each skill is activated at the right time, buffs are 100% up, they weave light attacks between skills and bar swap cancel abilities with longer animations. Everything is maximized to boost dps as high as possible. For arguments sake lets say this experienced player pulls 35k single target dps on a 6m dummy.

Casual players usually dont have fine-tuned build and their rotation isnt practiced (if they even have a rotation). They run out of magicka because they overcast dots, they lose dps because they dont weave light attack, buffs fall off etc etc. For arguments sake lets say this casual player pulls 15k single target dps on a 6m dummy.

With a new update dps is raised by 10% due to factors mentioned before.
The experienced player now pulls 35k x 1.10 = 38.5k dps
The casual player now pulls 15k x 1.10 = 16.5k dps

Extrapolate this over numerous updates and you'll understand why the dps difference is so massive.

WrathOfInnos

Can anyone be more specific about what “animation cancelling” they want removed from the game? Light attack weaving has had an animation for over a year, and block or bash cancelling does not help DPS.

It seems like a lot of people think there is some method to cast more abilities in a shorter time. This is a myth spread by those that cannot do a rotation and want an excuse for their low DPS.

I’ve done every piece of difficult content in the game, including all HM dungeons and trials (not cloudrest yet). The only thing I do that reduces animation time is light weaving and not waiting for the entire animation to play out before bar swapping. On bar swapping you have to be careful because it will cancel a skill cast if you do it too quickly (liquid lightning is a great example).

The key to good DPS is a good rotation, gear, and timing. It’s all about practice, and in boss fights you have to be able to change things on the fly. There is no magic win button, and macros are a terrible idea.

BejaProphet

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

Dymence

ZOS has been trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, but they don't seem to know how to do it very well.

Summerset has just raised the ceiling again, with the increase to weaving damage.

Linaleah

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

actualy there is. global cooldown slows down the game to the point where its easier to push buttons in sequence. click casting reduces the number of buttons you have to have muscle memory for. auto attack instead of manual weaving solves the issues with rotation precision and speed, as there are half as many button presses in sequence to keep track of. and attacks requiring finished animations to actualy fire - fix the problem with animation canceling. you can still cancel, if you have to move or whatnot, ability just doesn't fire when you do. now, there is still skill gap, becasue even given all of the above, some people are still faster then others and tuning of the content accounts for that. but the gap is not nearly as gigantic.

now. I'm not asking for the combat to be changed at this point. its far too late for that. all i want is that overworld/normal mode difficulty remains as it is. becasue it IS accessible to me with my current ability. it will not be accessible if its "made more challenging" all i'm saying is that by compounding on weaving etc mechanics of combat in this game, ZOS created this situation in a first place. now we get to live with it.

JinMori

How about this, you play like you want, i play like how i want, what you want to do is to very similar to what communism does, you bring down the rich to the level of the poor, and you do that through the government imposing backwards rules, in this case the government would be zos, and then everyone is as miserable as you are.

This way of thinking is dangerous, and frankly i'm really tired of seeing this bull... Look, you have freedom of choice you can decide whether to be an awful or good player, that;s what is good about western society, that is what is good about freedom.

But not everyone likes, it, because some people just don;t wanna put the effort, and would rather have the rich pay for them, but then the rich gets out, and everyone becomes poor and miserable, this is the destination of your idea.

Please, zos, if you are reading this, DO NOT DO WHAT WAS SUGGESTED IN THIS THREAD, if you wanna keep your sub base, because people seem to always forget this, yes, the majority of gamers might be casuals, we don;t really know that though, everyone throws this around, but there are no real statistics, just "feelings", but the only way to keep your players, is to have a good game, with the freedom to decide whether to be good or bad, otherwise players will come in, and go out in a few months, and overtime you will make yourself a bad reputation.