dps gap may cause game development gap?

Royaji

Linaleah wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

actualy there is. global cooldown slows down the game to the point where its easier to push buttons in sequence. click casting reduces the number of buttons you have to have muscle memory for. auto attack instead of manual weaving solves the issues with rotation precision and speed, as there are half as many button presses in sequence to keep track of. and attacks requiring finished animations to actualy fire - fix the problem with animation canceling. you can still cancel, if you have to move or whatnot, ability just doesn't fire when you do. now, there is still skill gap, becasue even given all of the above, some people are still faster then others and tuning of the content accounts for that. but the gap is not nearly as gigantic.

now. I'm not asking for the combat to be changed at this point. its far too late for that. all i want is that overworld/normal mode difficulty remains as it is. becasue it IS accessible to me with my current ability. it will not be accessible if its "made more challenging" all i'm saying is that by compounding on weaving etc mechanics of combat in this game, ZOS created this situation in a first place. now we get to live with it.

What if I told you 0.9 seconds GCD is already implemented in the game? That pressing one button every 1 second can bring you to 30k+? And also that pretty much all MMOs with "action combat" have light attack weaving? That animation cancelling has minimal effect on DPS? Elietist lies, huh?

tommalmm

The gap is real, but it's not an issue. It's there for a reason: to make you able to actually achieve something by training, get better, overcome limitations, get that fulfillment feeling when you finally do. What would be the point of playing if you could get much better by just putting on some better gear or just advancing a few levels? I guess, some people do like getting better in that manner. I certainly don't.

But to give you some background. I've started playing ESO a few months before One Tamriel was introduced. I was happy with overleveling my zone and just one shotting everything. I didn't really care, I was in for a story, I was playing like 2 hours a week. I had no skill whatsoever, I was just overleveling everything before actually attempting it, so it was not an issue. Then One Tamriel struck and I found myself in a pretty *** spot. I would literally die to everything (even a bunch of mudcrabs!). I don't know what my DPS was back then, but it must've been really, really low. So I started looking for some information about scaling and such... and got it totally wrong. I've got a mastercrafter to craft me some new gear... and golded it out immediately, thinking it would help a lot. It did help a little, as I wasn't dying immediately because of the random outleveled gear. Still some storyline bosses were giving me SO MUCH trouble, I needed people to help me taking care of them. Again, I had no rotation at all, I was playing a stamina nightblade (kind of), using only wrecking blow and bow's draining shot (for HEALING! really ). When my stamina ran out, I would just run in circles.

It took that experience to realize I'm doing it wrong. To cut a long story short. I've started looking for informations about mechanics, builds, rotations (hell, I didn't even know the word before!). I've created a magplar, trained weaving/canceling with it on everything. In about three months I've got to solid 30k DPS (on magplar, still failing at 25k with stamnb). Every dungeon, vet dungeon, vet hm dungeon, trial and vet trial later was SO rewarding. I don't think I would have played that long without that feeling of getting better.

I never was a top tier player. Still in the pro range, I guess. When a magsorc should do between 43-50k, I was doing 45k, when a stamsorc should do 40k self buffed, I was doing 38k. You get the picture, always somewhere in the middle of upper range. It was absolutely enough to consequently land high on leaderboards in trials and score somewhere between 50th and 70th place on vMA. And it all felt so good because it wasn't just given to me, I've actually worked to achieve that.

Still, at the point when I wasn't that good I just didn't care. I was questing for two hours every Saturday and that was it.

Oh, btw. I have a dexterity deficiency, so I was using a game controller (dualshock) to play this game. I might've been better with the keyboard, but it wasn't as comfortable for me. So to people who say that controller is so much worse that kb+mouse and that's the only reason they cannot weave or barswap properly: that's obviously a lie.

TL;DR;

Don't take all the fun from people.

Linaleah

Royaji wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

actualy there is. global cooldown slows down the game to the point where its easier to push buttons in sequence. click casting reduces the number of buttons you have to have muscle memory for. auto attack instead of manual weaving solves the issues with rotation precision and speed, as there are half as many button presses in sequence to keep track of. and attacks requiring finished animations to actualy fire - fix the problem with animation canceling. you can still cancel, if you have to move or whatnot, ability just doesn't fire when you do. now, there is still skill gap, becasue even given all of the above, some people are still faster then others and tuning of the content accounts for that. but the gap is not nearly as gigantic.

now. I'm not asking for the combat to be changed at this point. its far too late for that. all i want is that overworld/normal mode difficulty remains as it is. becasue it IS accessible to me with my current ability. it will not be accessible if its "made more challenging" all i'm saying is that by compounding on weaving etc mechanics of combat in this game, ZOS created this situation in a first place. now we get to live with it.

What if I told you 0.9 seconds GCD is already implemented in the game? That pressing one button every 1 second can bring you to 30k+? And also that pretty much all MMOs with "action combat" have light attack weaving? That animation cancelling has minimal effect on DPS? Elietist lies, huh?

not lie exactly, but not full truth either. why? because light attack weaving = auto attack in other games, at least the ones I have played. auto atack = you don't have to click it manualy = fewer chances to mess up the timing.
generally GCD tends to be twice the length of what you stated. a second an a half. that extra 0.6 seconds make a great deal of difference. animation canceling VIA weaving makes a huge difference, because the more attacks you manage to weave in, while minimizing the actual animation of said attacks via timing? the higher your dps becomes. lastly - you press > click LA > press > click LA and so on and so on. the faster you can do that while still keeping that sequence perfect - the better your dps is. oh and.. while cp is not be all, end all - it DOES make a great deal of difference, now more then ever. and since we are talking percentages - the higher our cp gets, the larger dps gap becomes. becasue math.

now. simply being good or even great at the game is not elitism. that's just life. elitism is deciding that your level of play should be baseline for everyone else and if they god forbit cannot measure up, well then.. they are just SoL.

skill gap is inevitable no matter what - its impossible to make a fun game that is centered around combat and plays exactly the same for everyone. not even when its turned based. its human condition. some people are better at things that others. some are significantly better then others. nothing wrong with that. Elitism is demanding that ..... that backyard game of pick up basketball requires at a minimum the same level of skill as college basketball, or you don't get to play.

greenmachine

Targeting is hard too. You mean, I have to point the reticle at what I want to attack? Why should it make a difference? These ultraL33T tryhards have all day to move their camera around, but I have a full-time job and can't really be bothered. Why can't everything just die once I load into a dungeon or Cyrodiil? Then I can walk in and take the loot that I deserve, and get back to work on time.

Not only that, but these monsters keep attacking me! Is that what you want ZoS? Monsters!? Attacking your paying customers!? You could make them stop if you wanted to!

Seri

Kuwhar wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are several easy ways to bridge the gap:

1. Allow players to disable CP without paying 3000g + having to reallocate all their points every time they want to do it
2. Create normal and vet modes of all instanced content (delves, public dungeons, and solo quests); this is as easy as just cranking up mob damage, health, and resistance to something you would find in a normal group dungeon, for example

Also, OP, 10-20k DPS is more than enough to clear overland content with a blindfold on. I will often times just spam light attacks as I run through a quest. That's how weak overland mobs are. That isn't the result of some "DPS gap". In fact, you can probably kill every delve boss in the game by just light attacking.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect punishing difficulty from overland content. I just want some resistance from enemies.

Here is me fighting some trash mobs. It takes 2 mobs nearly one whole minute to kill me. I'm not healing, mitigating, blocking, or dodging. I'm just standing in front of them. Then I dispatch of them with 2 hits from a spammable ability. No weaving or animation cancelling was used. Gear was all crafted/bought from traders (no end game trials/dungeon gear). The noobiest player in the game can achieve these results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6FFj68_BBc

A better test would include:

1. Not fighting 2 braindead enemies, try a couple humanoids
2. Not wearing gold CP160 gear

Take a lvl 25 in normal grade light armor, maybe a couple blue pieces, and you'll get much different results.

I assume at this point in time, it'd be pointless to offer video of a CP ranked healer, with no food, wearing purple healer sets, getting hit by the big bad named boss in the Morrowind prequel quest, and being able to out heal the entire damage loadout of this named boss, with nothing but a Templar's Cleansing Ritual?

Feanor wrote: »

Why would the game be more fun for everyone if the DPS gap is made artificially smaller? All this would achieve is a pat on the back for the casuals.

And yet everyone (in other threads) seems to talk about the good old days of patches 1.4 and 1.5 as being the most fun... when softcaps existed which did _exactly_ what people are talking about, and adding a 'soft' ceiling that higher tier players could still stack into, but did constrain quite how far ahead they could get.

nnargun

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

Nothing to add.

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

Left click - 1 - left click - 2 - right click (my bar swap)
Left click - 1 - hold left click - 2 - hold left click - 3 - right click
Repeat

Are you sure you are completely unable to learn that? Even on target dummy without movement or heals? Come on...

Linaleah

nnargun wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

Nothing to add.

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

Left click - 1 - left click - 2 - right click (my bar swap)
Left click - 1 - hold left click - 2 - hold left click - 3 - right click
Repeat

Are you sure you are completely unable to learn that? Even on target dummy without movement or heals? Come on...

sigh. learning =/= executing. there IS a difference. can i remember and do the sequence? yes. slowly. which defeats the purpose becasue at that point, dps is roughly the same as if you just button mash indiscriminately. maintaining that sequence while pushing the buttons at less then one keypress per second with clicks woven in between in a very specific timing, or sequence is ruined? that requires dexterity.

there are many and varied reasons why that amount of dexterity may not be present. but regardless of that reason without that dexterity - there is no high dps. other games do not require this amount of speed. at least not MMORPG's.

and in any case, dummy dps is worthless if you cannot execute it WHILE paying attention to mechanics which all to often includes movement and may or may not include target switching on top of that.

Feanor

How would difficult content even look like when everyone is doing close to the same damage? Mechanics only get you so far. I know that part of why high damage is the way to go is that mechanics don’t even occur or get way easier. But if you’re struggling with a rotation - and I’m just a lazy Sorc doing 25k while holding heavy attack - chances are high that the refined mechanics you need to make content really hard wouldn’t be doable either.

I don’t see a way how this could be done. And as for the nostalgia concerning pre 1.5 - that’s almost entirely because there wasn’t as much cheese in the game, not because the skill gap was smaller.

Rungar

The problem with dps in this game is that it promotes the use of programmable controllers and keyboards for best effect.

the disconnect is that you & I aren't using the technology and dont want to use it.

thestud2012

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

I find using the keyboard difficult, too. I recommend using an Xbox controller. That might help with the pain issue as well.

mateoz

If you want to cut the gap between the floor (6k dps PUG in random) and the ceiling (45k+ pro DPS) its very simple:
Bring light and heavy attack where the worst player do 15k+ with heavy and lower the skills so pro DPS stay at the same DPS overall.
If they nerf the ceiling too hard everyone will complain, just bring the floor to 15k problem solve

phermitgb

I'm at work and don't have the time I really need to adequately respond to the numerous well brought up points...so, I'll just summarize a few thoughts and maybe carve out some time during my lunch to post a more cogent response...

#1 - to the few of you just posting here to be jackasses to the people in the thread you don't like - please, go waste someone else's time (you know who you are, and I'm betting at least one of you is going to quote this particular line with a jackass response, precisely because you know who you are)

#2 - thread has gotten mildly derailed from my original point (which could very easily be my own fault, as I do tend to ramble) - I was not making an argument that top tier dps is TOO HARD for casual players to reach - my point I was trying to make (and again, it may be my own fault that this didn't come across) is that regardless of HOW top tier dps reaches that top tier, just having the tier exist can, I *think*, force development to split the SAME content across 2 HUGELY DIVIDED populations

(someone brought up an almost excellent point about having a wide variety of content for players of different interests and normally I would agree, but I don't feel that THIS is the case in this particular point - instead, we're essentially getting DUPLICATED content that has to be adjusted for the massive dps loads that only a few people put out)

#3 - and I feel that this is the most important point - the biggest point I was trying to make was that shrinking (not eliminating, just shrinking) the HUGE divide between the general population and the upper tiers of dps could serve to make both populations happier - TOP TIER dps's would still complete hardest content faster than lower tiers, but there could be at least a LITTLE more challenge getting it done, and lower dps'ers would still have a great deal of skill/progression to aim for, but the apparent distance/gap they'd have to close would be lessened (I say the *apparent* gap, because depending on HOW you close the dps gap, the amount of effort might easily be the same, just the numbers going up would be smaller)

p.s. - I KNEW that someone was going to throw down the commy card at some point, and strangely, equating dps in ESO to capitalism vs socialism (strictly speaking, I feel the ACTUAL communism card doesn't apply nearly as well) and the way people THINK about effort vs reward in ESO (and MMO's in general) is a very apt analogy - one I'd like to talk more in depth about later...

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

Nothing to add.

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

Left click - 1 - left click - 2 - right click (my bar swap)
Left click - 1 - hold left click - 2 - hold left click - 3 - right click
Repeat

Are you sure you are completely unable to learn that? Even on target dummy without movement or heals? Come on...

sigh. learning =/= executing. there IS a difference. can i remember and do the sequence? yes. slowly. which defeats the purpose becasue at that point, dps is roughly the same as if you just button mash indiscriminately. maintaining that sequence while pushing the buttons at less then one keypress per second with clicks woven in between in a very specific timing, or sequence is ruined? that requires dexterity.

there are many and varied reasons why that amount of dexterity may not be present. but regardless of that reason without that dexterity - there is no high dps. other games do not require this amount of speed. at least not MMORPG's.

and in any case, dummy dps is worthless if you cannot execute it WHILE paying attention to mechanics which all to often includes movement and may or may not include target switching on top of that.

Am I assuming correctly that you are not doing dummy parses if you find them worthless? Do you think following mechanics gets easier or harder being comfortable with your rotation?
And what I posted there can be easily translated in a 40k DPS rotation on a properly geared magsorc. I don't think that's asking too much.
I understand you have issues with pressing buttons n stuff but maybe that's not really representative for the average player (though I do get the feeling sometimes).

WrathOfInnos

mateoz wrote: »

If you want to cut the gap between the floor (6k dps PUG in random) and the ceiling (45k+ pro DPS) its very simple:
Bring light and heavy attack where the worst player do 15k+ with heavy and lower the skills so pro DPS stay at the same DPS overall.
If they nerf the ceiling too hard everyone will complain, just bring the floor to 15k problem solve

The problem with this is that the mid-tier would be destroyed. Those that don’t weave light attacks, but have a decent rotation of skills would take a big hit.

Motherball

They could always do a difficulty slider so everyone could be happy challenge-wise. Rewards should stay the same though, imo. The challenge and added difficulty is the reward.

Kuwhar

@Seri : "I assume at this point in time, it'd be pointless to offer video of a CP ranked healer, with no food, wearing purple healer sets, getting hit by the big bad named boss in the Morrowind prequel quest, and being able to out heal the entire damage loadout of this named boss, with nothing but a Templar's Cleansing Ritual?"

Quite the opposite, that would be a very useful video, one which i'd be very interested in seeing.

BretonMage

How about an optional veteran overland mode where a player can opt to scale their damage down for overland content? Kind of like the damage scaling for new players, but reversed.

thestud2012 wrote: »

I find using the keyboard difficult, too. I recommend using an Xbox controller. That might help with the pain issue as well.

Yup, hate using the keyboard as well. I always end up hitting the wrong keys, I can't even count the number of times I've accidentally used my ultimate ability when all I wanted to do was open a chest. I tried using the Xbox controller, but there are too many keys to map in this game, and I couldn't find a comfortable configuration.

Nebthet78

Turelus wrote: »

There is clearly a huge gap and a lot of it is down to how the combat mechanics work, rotations etc.

ZOS continuing with light attack weave being the way you DD in the game is only going to further push players apart. The frustrating thing though is that moderately good players (like myself) are stuck in that area where normal content is to easy and hard content is too hard so there isn't much joy left in doing trials/dungeons.

Sadly the only response seems to be "git gud" as well.

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

It sounds like you and I are in the same boat. With my physical limitations I'm forced to use a controller to play. A PS3 controller unfortunately because I have small hands, which means I have to use a third party program to get it to work with ESO. I tried to find a smaller 360 controller, but it wouldn't work properly with my PC.

Mureel wrote: »

You can't because you do not try and don't know how. That's not can't, that's actually won't.

If you can click a mouse key, then a keyboard key, you CAN animation cancel. If you practise every day this, you will become very good.

No one good uses macros for that. Macros would limit you badly rather than helping you.

Yes, I do try, and I do know how. HOWEVER, I use a controller. One that also requires me to use a third party program to work with ESO.

Here's the interesting thing. I went into and did training with a person who is well known in his DPS for all classes, but specifically for stam classes. He went over my rotation and we fixed it so I was doing an easy one with not much cancellation. (heavy attack cancel and bar swap cancel which are the easy ones), and I was pulling 28-32k buffed in Vet Trails. This was after the Morrowind sustain changes.

Then about 4-5 months later, ZOS made an update on how information is handled by their servers.

Suddenly I started noticing my abilities not firing off when I press the button. Bar swapping not happening on time. I'm pressing my rotation and it's not going off properly. There are missing abilities in between. As I watched this more and more, I noticed that my rotation is 3 skills BEHIND what I'm actually pressing on my controller.

ZOS' servers can't keep up with my use of the controller and third party program. It's bundling all the information that is being put through and sending it over all at once.

My DPS plummeted!!!!

Add in the additional nerfs to stam sorc dps they have made since, in addition to other changes, and I've lost well over 10k dps, and I haven't been able to make it up, because of the fact that I can't animation cancel and in order for my abilities to fire when I play, I have to slow down my button pressing, otherwise their servers will not pick it up.

Seriously, people playing with a controller, when you are playing or working on a test dummy watch how your rotation goes off.

And I hate to inform you, a LOT of the top tier guilds do use macros when they play. That's been admitted outright. If you are using a mouse with a bunch of buttons on the side, and then you are using extra programming to easy click block cancel for animation cancel, or the auto release button on a button press when using skills, then yes, you are using macros.

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

It's not that Zenimax isn't aware of the problem but all their attempts to fix this have failed miserably so far (remember the "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" from last year ?). This year's attempt by buffing Light Attacks will not make it better as it will buff players even more so that are perfect with weaving.
And contrary to what some people are claiming weaving is actually hard because you have effectively coordinate skills every 0.5 seconds and that on a tight schedule. Factor in the fact that the majority of the player base can't use a mouse with its digital button and instead have to use a controller with its big analog trigger and it gets ever harder to weave.

I've tried for year to get weaving working with my stamblade and I simply can't get weaving to work. So instead of getting even more frustrated with the crappy way dps are working in this game I have chosen the alternative to 'git gud': 'gtfo' ....
This is mostly because I can feel the same as Turelus described it so perfectly, I'm feeling locked out of any of content I could play before or any of the newer content.
Luckily there are still other MMORPGs out there that don't require this split-second gameplay.

That's just it... I'm tired of being locked out of content that I used to be able to do, because ZOS doesn't know how to fix the issue they created.

The only trials groups I can get into now are "fun runs" which are done rarely and depending on who goes, you may not complete.
Trials guilds for core membership require 30k+ DPS in order to even be considered for running with them, on both a Ranged character since the newer trials are anti-Stam on Vet modes.

CP doesn't even help to mitigate any of it because of the changes they made there.

This is the type of crap that happens when you have a game trying to balance PVP and PVE together rather than seperating the system entirely, in addition to allowing animation cancelling because they don't know how to fix it and now relying on attack weaving as a way to try to bridge the gap without ever seeing the bigger picture.

nursingninja wrote: »

What's going to happen is they are going to have to make the enemies scale higher than cp 160. That means making gear go up too. Watch everyone flip out on that day! Lol

In trials, the enemies already scale at CP300. That was changed around the Morrowind release or a bit before.

Linaleah

thestud2012 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

I find using the keyboard difficult, too. I recommend using an Xbox controller. That might help with the pain issue as well.

believe it or not, i'm worse with controllers. comes from being used to playing with a keyboard. (yep, this is me when used to keyboard) find xbox controller far too uncomfortable for my hands. dualshock is better, but it still took me close to a year to get used to it enough to be able to finish Uncharted games on normal difficulty (played on easy prior to that). more then 2 and several nerfs before I was able to finish story bits of Division, still can't play Destiny worth a damn (but can on PC) so... yeah... I will give you this much... its much kinder on my damaged right wrist (long story - work injury). its just... not as instinctive as using a mouse to turn etc.

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Linaleah You are saying you struggle to push buttons. I'm not saying that in a snarky way. That's just what you are saying. There is no game designing plan to fix that short of turn based combat. Your worth as a human being is not connected to the ability to play a video game. My wife struggles to use the XBOX controller accurately and quickly in tough fights. It doesn't determine her self worth. And she does her job reasonably well. But the gap between her and the elite players isn't a game design issue. Skill, including skillful play and nimble reactions ought to be a factor. That's a good thing.

Nothing to add.

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better. In my experience no guide or video or whatever will get you to where a competent helping hand can get you. The gap between 15k and 40k DPS (who the hell does 65k???) does not primarily come from gear (proper crafted set + overland set is good for any class and content afaik) but from the rotation itself.

I absolutely agree. Did just that - watching a friend at a training dummy because he struggled with his dps - and it took exactly 5 minute to see his mistakes, make him change two skills and give him a bit of training. Et voila - his dps went from 18k to 25k. Some days later he consistently hit 30k on the dummy.

I also highly recommend using combat metrics if you want to improve your dps. Just look at the fight report windows after a training round. were your buffs consistently up? Which skills did most damage? Can you change some skills for others which either perform better or give you additional buffs or lower your costs? Also read the description of your passive skills and analyze whether the setup of your skill bars is really making best use of them.

he STARTED at 18k which is already a pretty darn good start. it means his dexterity is pretty good already. some of us start at 4-6k. that is a lot more to fix and simple flip of a few skills won't cut it, where fundamental problem is executing rotation quickly AND accurately, WHILE also paying attention to mechanics. not saying it cannot be done, i have personaly seen it done. saying it cannot be done all. or even most.

You are seriously trying hard to improve, reading guides, doing dummy parses, asking players for help etc. since years and you are stuck at 6k DPS? Frankly, we must have a very different concenption of training and progressing or this is not possible. I think keeping the left mouse button down will do more than 6k dps.

no, I started at 6k. I made it to about 11k, 12k on a dummy if i get a lucky streak, assuming i don't have to move and/or block or interrupt. I've seen it go up to 15k in a dungeon single target, with debuffs on a boss. again, when i didn't have to move and could just turret.

understanding how something needs to be done is not the same as having dexterity to actualy execute it.

Get a basic rotation for your class with 4 to 5 skills that includes LA and HA weaving and force yourself to perform it on each and every mob you come across. And I mean the complete rotation regardless if the damn mud crab is dead after the first skill already or not. Do that stoically until you don't have to think about it anymore and et voila, there you go. It will be annoying, frustrating and super slow at the beginning but ultimately you will learn it and progress will most likely feel super good. I did that so much I cannot even kill a wolf anymore without firing my complete arsenal at it. But seriously, force yourself to always do it and never get lazy about it. You don't even have to stand in front of some target dummy for hours this way.
Btw. what is your class?

you are assuming that I'm not and have not already been atempting to do that.
I.
do NOT.
have
the
dexterity
to execute
accurate rotation
quickly.
it starts accurate, and then my health starts dropping like crazy cause its taking too long at which point I resort to spamming self heals
or in case of doing it in dungeons, its just slow, so there is no measurable dps difference between me spamming whatever while staying out of bad, and trying to actualy execute rotation.

part of the reason for that is my pathological inability to touch type. no, after several decades of trying - its not getting any better. what that means is that i have to glance down at my keyboard and even then i still some times hit the wrong keys unless i'm going slower.

now. not everyone has my exact issues. in fact, i would say different people have different issues when it comes to getting their rotation going. however. the point remains. rotation requires dexterity and precision. and your advice is the equivalent of "have you tried turning it off and on again"

P.S. my main is stamblade. but I have also attempted magsorc. including this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafavdcH7po&t=466s which looked nothing like the video when I tried it. including major sustain issues.

Left click - 1 - left click - 2 - right click (my bar swap)
Left click - 1 - hold left click - 2 - hold left click - 3 - right click
Repeat

Are you sure you are completely unable to learn that? Even on target dummy without movement or heals? Come on...

sigh. learning =/= executing. there IS a difference. can i remember and do the sequence? yes. slowly. which defeats the purpose becasue at that point, dps is roughly the same as if you just button mash indiscriminately. maintaining that sequence while pushing the buttons at less then one keypress per second with clicks woven in between in a very specific timing, or sequence is ruined? that requires dexterity.

there are many and varied reasons why that amount of dexterity may not be present. but regardless of that reason without that dexterity - there is no high dps. other games do not require this amount of speed. at least not MMORPG's.

and in any case, dummy dps is worthless if you cannot execute it WHILE paying attention to mechanics which all to often includes movement and may or may not include target switching on top of that.

Am I assuming correctly that you are not doing dummy parses if you find them worthless? Do you think following mechanics gets easier or harder being comfortable with your rotation?
And what I posted there can be easily translated in a 40k DPS rotation on a properly geared magsorc. I don't think that's asking too much.
I understand you have issues with pressing buttons n stuff but maybe that's not really representative for the average player (though I do get the feeling sometimes).

you are not assuming correctly. dummy dps is not representative of what you will end up pulling in a real fight, because it doesn't teach you how to maintain that dps while under pressure and movement. its like running on a treadmill vs running on a cross country road. sure it helps to get your endurance up, but speed? precision? ability to multitask? not so much.

also. no. not easily, becasue of the whole pressing buttons and stuff while paying attention to all the red on the ground and stuff, unless you are one of those players that expects your healer to just heal through it.

that is not to say that there aren't players that manage to maintain that dps and more WHILE paying attention to mechanics and not making their healer's job a living hell. having ran with those kinds of dps once, it has been forever etched into my mind. because that is NOT baseline. its exceptional. most people cannot do that any more than they can play sports professionally or paint Mona Lisa.

if you are on that level or anywhere close to it. congratulations. you are one of the few. good job. now... try to temper your expectations for other people.

in any case, at this point, OP, I'm honestly not sure that there's anything that can be done without ruining someone's fun one way or another. other then, you know... not making the problem worse by bumping up max CP by 30 points every 3 months. we can stop doing that.

veteran zones could work, but... it will split up the population and for all the desire for challenge, unless those zones come with particularly good rewards... they will be as deserted as Craglorn was when it was first released

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

you are not assuming correctly. dummy dps is not representative of what you will end up pulling in a real fight, because it doesn't teach you how to maintain that dps while under pressure and movement. its like running on a treadmill vs running on a cross country road. sure it helps to get your endurance up, but speed? precision? ability to multitask? not so much.

I get the feeling that you don't wanna git gud or why do you try to explain me how everything works instead of taking some advice? Dummy parses are the only thing YOU can actually train as you said you were even panicking and button smashing when facing overland mobs. And because you like bad comparisons so much: Why do you think soldiers, astronauts, fire fighters and so on and so on train what they have to do in a real situation? Maybe they wanna be able to press the right buttons when sh*t gets real.

Linaleah wrote: »

that is not to say that there aren't players that manage to maintain that dps and more WHILE paying attention to mechanics and not making their healer's job a living hell. having ran with those kinds of dps once, it has been forever etched into my mind. because that is NOT baseline. its exceptional. most people cannot do that any more than they can play sports professionally or paint Mona Lisa.

You don't play with them because they don't play normal dungeons. They are not quite as rare as geniuses like Leonardo da Vinci.

HeathenDeacon

Two things i have to ask again for some clarification from people capable of over 30k dps:

1. are you on console?
2. can you achieve 30k+ w/out a trial set?

I feel like these are the only two things that keep me in the 'gap' between casual and top tier.
I have absolutely no problem weaving LAs and doing the exact rotations that are suggested.
& i have been anni canceling since launch, but TBH it isnt as fluid on console as PC.

badmojo

I only read the OP because 4 pages of text is tl;dr.

You assume the people who complain about overworld difficulty are min/maxers with 45k dps, but I find it too easy even on my PVP builds that would probably pull 15k dps. The fact is that even without CP allocated and not wearing the best gear, on a new alt and unfamiliar class, most experienced players can fly through all non-veteran content in this game.

Once a player understand that standing in red circles hurt, they need to block when they see white lines, bash when they see red lines and dodge roll to avoid projectiles, they become an unstoppable force that can plow through all non-vet content with ease. Its so easy when you know the mechanics because it seems like the game has been balanced so as to let new players ignore them and still progress. Which would be fine for starting zones, but this is how they balanced everything in the game except world bosses,VMA, veteran dungeons and trials.

When you dumb down enemies to the point where they are an annoyance and pose no real threat players become less interested in improving their skills. If a player can spam snipe or bow light attacks and clear most content, thats what they are going to do. Then when that player queues up for a veteran dungeon and tries to light attack everything, I cant really blame them. That is probably the first time they encountered a situation where light attacks arent enough. Then usually what happens is the player gets carried by the 20k+ dps next to him, or gets vote kicked. Both of those situations are toxic to the overall community because the new player still doesnt learn anything. Sometimes the experiened players will teach the new guy if they are willing to listen, and in that one dungeon run they probably learn more than they did playing dozens of hours of questing and overland exploration.


In short, the problem with overland difficulty isnt the min/maxers being too powerful, it the fact that new players can progress without learning basic mechanics, and increasing the difficulty would change that.

It happened prior One Tamriel update, players would hit VR1 and suddenly be unable to progress in overland/questing without help, because they never had to learn how to fight properly.

nnargun

HeathenDeacon wrote: »

Two things i have to ask again for some clarification from people capable of over 30k dps:

1. are you on console?
2. can you achieve 30k+ w/out a trial set?

I feel like these are the only two things that keep me in the 'gap' between casual and top tier.
I have absolutely no problem weaving LAs and doing the exact rotations that are suggested.
& i have been anni canceling since launch, but TBH it isnt as fluid on console as PC.

1. I played on xbox before I moved to PC. Don't see why it wouldn't be the same there.
2. Totally, Julianos+Necropotence or Spriggans+Hundings for instance.


edit: 1. Is not true for trials actually. Performance there was absolute crap on xbox and proper rotations barely possible. But target skelly really shouldn't be an issue

edit2: I wanna say that it probably can get hard though if you are below 400 CP, no trial gear, and no vMA weapons. But more important than that is major breach/fracture. Never got over 30k until I discovered weakness to elements. If you are playing nightblade the rotation will be your biggest issue by far though.

SugaComa

I agree with what you're saying ... But I'm happy to have min/max builds be 400% stronger ... These should be the players plowing through the leaderboards doing speed runs high score runs based on DPS

But content needs a three way split , normal mode , vet mode , leaderboard mode

Leaderboard mode would be slightly harder than vet mode only no drops ... At the end of the dungeon you would open a chest and be rewarded with a drop for each boss killed getting to the chest, plus other goodies based on your time and score ... End of the week top of the leaderboards get their other rewards

This way ... Leaderboard runs are DPS races whilst vet runs are runs where you take your time learn the mechanics and beat the game through playstyle and skill not just by hitting the box the hardest

SugaComa

Weisstag wrote: »

If you are one pc just send me a message here on forums and ill get you to 35k+ dps in 1 hour...iam not joking its actually really easy to get there...getting 45k+ actually requires skill but 35k-ish is doable by anyone

No it's not ... See your not taking into account players who may have disabilities that can't manage rotations and animation cancelling ... Your stealing fun from us by forcing us to only be able to content by achieving high DPS instead of learning how to play the mechanics and keeps a steady DPS to beat the game

I my self suffer trigger finger from arthritis in my hands ... This means my fingers lock on the controller and I can only use maybe three buttons ... Then suddenly my fingers will unlock and I can use all of them for a maybe a minute or two ... It's quite funny cos I will get finger lock and fire my ultimate at times when it's just not needed... Including when no enemies are around

PlagueSD

phermitgb wrote: »

so, for the longest time, I've wondered...I have no data to support my suspicion, just a semi-logical chain of thought...

Fact - #1 - many, many people complain that ESO overland content (quest bosses, delves, world bosses, even most basic dungeons) are too easy (it's a FACT that many people complain - whether or not it is or isn't is more debateable)
#2 - top tier dps often quotes dps ranges between 45k dps and 65k dps...
#3 - as an experienced MMO player with very little drive to be L33T, my own dps has wandered between 10k to 20k (as much as 40k in aoe trash situations, but everyone tells me that that doesn't count for ***) ...and I've actually spent some time reading guides and builds and whatnot...

The above three are mostly factual, in that these are things people have actually CLAIMED, or that I have personally experienced (not facts in that they represent ALL ESO players or anything like that)

question #1 - if the above are TRUE, then wouldn't that mean that the divide between "casual" players, with lets say a generous dps ceiling of somewhere between 10-15k dps, and L33T players, with averages of 45k to 65k, is...well...TITANIC?

Now, if we assume that the above is anywhere *near* true, then the people creating content for the game, have to create content that is at least REASONABLY accessible to players at the 15k dps range, while trying to create content that is anywhere near challenging for players at the 45k and upwards dps range?

if it were me...I'm just sayin'...then, I'm not sure that the HUGE gap between top-tier players and casual players could possibly be bridged in any reliable way by any single amount of content...

which means you suddenly have the dev team essentially creating content for 2 populations of the MMO game (in this case, ESO) - 1, creating content that's accessible but still moderately fun for people in the 10k-20k dps range, and then a second..."version"...of the game for the relatively niche group of players at the 40K+ range.

Isn't that...A BAD WAY TO BUILD AN MMO?...I mean, doesn't it really...skew...development resources in a really, really bad direction? You essentially have to build content for 2 populations within your MMO, and one of those populations represents a fairly small fraction of your population...

so, the radical question I pose, becomes...wouldn't ESO, overall, as a total game, be far, FAR better off - healthier, more fun for everyone - if they found a way to significantly lower the gap between upper dps and lower dps, so that casual players were still doing 10-15k dps (or less in some cases ) and upper tiers were still only doing 30k-ish dps? I mean, wouldn't we ALL have a more challenging game if they balanced outgoing damage factors so that there was ONLY roughly a 100% gap between lower tier dps and upper tier dps, instead of 400% or more?

and I say "more fun for everyone" in the sense that massive super-high dps'ers STILL, to this very day, complain about the game being too easy. I mean, once you've jacked your DPS up to 60k, do you really have any right to complain that the game is too easy? Didn't you DELIBERATELY SET OUT TO MAKE THE GAME TOO EASY?...

*sigh*...point is, and I'm serious about this - wouldn't ESO as a whole, be better served by dropping the gap between the borderline crazy compulsive dps min-maxers, and the casual population? I'm not kidding - wouldn't even the super dps'ers be more satisfied by a higher degree of moment-to-moment challenge, if we narrowed down the range of features and synergies the min-maxers had to up their damage.

what if every synergy between armor and skill yielded only 100 extra dps instead of 1000? Would the min-maxers stop min-maxing? of course not. Many of them would *** up and down the street, but they wouldn't stop min-maxing. they'd eke out every last 10 dps they could find, and that would be okay, because the gap between the casuals and the ultra-elite of the min maxers would still only be about 15k dps...which means the min maxers would still get to enjoy the benefits of wasting everything twice as fast as the filthy care-bear casuals while still having at least a modicum of a challenge, while the same content would be more or less accessible to the casuals, they'd just have to fight harder, longer, and with a greater degree of precision.

seriously...wouldn't that be better? Honest question...

Overland content is meant for NEW players.
Trials (Vet/hardmode) are meant for the "L33T" players.

If you can do 45K+ DPS, and you're complaining that Overland content is too easy, this is basically like a pro football player complaining that a backyard football game is too easy...

Linaleah

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

you are not assuming correctly. dummy dps is not representative of what you will end up pulling in a real fight, because it doesn't teach you how to maintain that dps while under pressure and movement. its like running on a treadmill vs running on a cross country road. sure it helps to get your endurance up, but speed? precision? ability to multitask? not so much.

I get the feeling that you don't wanna git gud or why do you try to explain me how everything works instead of taking some advice? Dummy parses are the only thing YOU can actually train as you said you were even panicking and button smashing when facing overland mobs. And because you like bad comparisons so much: Why do you think soldiers, astronauts, fire fighters and so on and so on train what they have to do in a real situation? Maybe they wanna be able to press the right buttons when sh*t gets real.

Linaleah wrote: »

that is not to say that there aren't players that manage to maintain that dps and more WHILE paying attention to mechanics and not making their healer's job a living hell. having ran with those kinds of dps once, it has been forever etched into my mind. because that is NOT baseline. its exceptional. most people cannot do that any more than they can play sports professionally or paint Mona Lisa.

You don't play with them because they don't play normal dungeons. They are not quite as rare as geniuses like Leonardo da Vinci.

sigh.

I was going to reply with more actual responses but i'm tired. you are never going to see it from my perspective becasue you have no point of reference based on personal experience, so there is no point.

that said... soldiers etc don't train on target dummies. they train on drills that imitate situations that they may have to deal with. drills that involve moving targets, etc. not the same as target dummy. and guess what even there, the same people who did well at stationary target marksmanship - often don't do so well at drills. there is a reason why very few actually make it into the programs they train for, out of a LOT of candidates. your comparison? proves MY point, not yours.

edited to add - there is a post above talking about increasing difficulty to teach players. uh... no, that's not what's going to happen. what's going to happen is that these players who are suddenly having trouble with basic quests? are going to LEAVE the game.

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

you are not assuming correctly. dummy dps is not representative of what you will end up pulling in a real fight, because it doesn't teach you how to maintain that dps while under pressure and movement. its like running on a treadmill vs running on a cross country road. sure it helps to get your endurance up, but speed? precision? ability to multitask? not so much.

I get the feeling that you don't wanna git gud or why do you try to explain me how everything works instead of taking some advice? Dummy parses are the only thing YOU can actually train as you said you were even panicking and button smashing when facing overland mobs. And because you like bad comparisons so much: Why do you think soldiers, astronauts, fire fighters and so on and so on train what they have to do in a real situation? Maybe they wanna be able to press the right buttons when sh*t gets real.

Linaleah wrote: »

that is not to say that there aren't players that manage to maintain that dps and more WHILE paying attention to mechanics and not making their healer's job a living hell. having ran with those kinds of dps once, it has been forever etched into my mind. because that is NOT baseline. its exceptional. most people cannot do that any more than they can play sports professionally or paint Mona Lisa.

You don't play with them because they don't play normal dungeons. They are not quite as rare as geniuses like Leonardo da Vinci.

sigh.

I was going to reply with more actual responses but i'm tired. you are never going to see it from my perspective becasue you have no point of reference based on personal experience, so there is no point.

that said... soldiers etc don't train on target dummies. they train on drills that imitate situations that they may have to deal with. drills that involve moving targets, etc. not the same as target dummy. and guess what even there, the same people who did well at stationary target marksmanship - often don't do so well at drills. there is a reason why very few actually make it into the programs they train for, out of a LOT of candidates. your comparison? proves MY point, not yours.

edited to add - there is a post above talking about increasing difficulty to teach players. uh... no, that's not what's going to happen. what's going to happen is that these players who are suddenly having trouble with basic quests? are going to LEAVE the game.

What about marksmanship?

It's impossible. I'm not gonna keep arguing about the benefits of practicing your rotation with someone who admittedly is one of the worst DDs in the game. And the reason for that is pretty obvious to me by now. Not the marksman and also not you will hit the moving target while being under fire if you cannot even hit the stationary. You might still not be able to hit the moving target if able to hit the stationary but you should worry about that step by step.

edit: Oh one thing I gotta mention actually. I was a soldier as we used to have mandatory military service in Germany and I did shoot stationary targets a lot. Were you a soldier? Or do you talk again about something you have absolutely no clue of? Like DPS...

Seri

Kuwhar wrote: »

@Seri : "I assume at this point in time, it'd be pointless to offer video of a CP ranked healer, with no food, wearing purple healer sets, getting hit by the big bad named boss in the Morrowind prequel quest, and being able to out heal the entire damage loadout of this named boss, with nothing but a Templar's Cleansing Ritual?"

Quite the opposite, that would be a very useful video, one which i'd be very interested in seeing.

@Kuwhar Make of this what you will. Yes, I bashed the fire knockback a couple of times, but I'm also stage 4 vampire and both her light and heavies are flame damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fXZ0psmvTo

Linaleah

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

you are not assuming correctly. dummy dps is not representative of what you will end up pulling in a real fight, because it doesn't teach you how to maintain that dps while under pressure and movement. its like running on a treadmill vs running on a cross country road. sure it helps to get your endurance up, but speed? precision? ability to multitask? not so much.

I get the feeling that you don't wanna git gud or why do you try to explain me how everything works instead of taking some advice? Dummy parses are the only thing YOU can actually train as you said you were even panicking and button smashing when facing overland mobs. And because you like bad comparisons so much: Why do you think soldiers, astronauts, fire fighters and so on and so on train what they have to do in a real situation? Maybe they wanna be able to press the right buttons when sh*t gets real.

Linaleah wrote: »

that is not to say that there aren't players that manage to maintain that dps and more WHILE paying attention to mechanics and not making their healer's job a living hell. having ran with those kinds of dps once, it has been forever etched into my mind. because that is NOT baseline. its exceptional. most people cannot do that any more than they can play sports professionally or paint Mona Lisa.

You don't play with them because they don't play normal dungeons. They are not quite as rare as geniuses like Leonardo da Vinci.

sigh.

I was going to reply with more actual responses but i'm tired. you are never going to see it from my perspective becasue you have no point of reference based on personal experience, so there is no point.

that said... soldiers etc don't train on target dummies. they train on drills that imitate situations that they may have to deal with. drills that involve moving targets, etc. not the same as target dummy. and guess what even there, the same people who did well at stationary target marksmanship - often don't do so well at drills. there is a reason why very few actually make it into the programs they train for, out of a LOT of candidates. your comparison? proves MY point, not yours.

edited to add - there is a post above talking about increasing difficulty to teach players. uh... no, that's not what's going to happen. what's going to happen is that these players who are suddenly having trouble with basic quests? are going to LEAVE the game.

What about marksmanship?

It's impossible. I'm not gonna keep arguing about the benefits of practicing your rotation with someone who admittedly is one of the worst DDs in the game. And the reason for that is pretty obvious to me by now. Not the marksman and also not you will hit the moving target while being under fire if you cannot even hit the stationary. You might still not be able to hit the moving target if able to hit the stationary but you should worry about that step by step.

edit: Oh one thing I gotta mention actually. I was a soldier as we used to have mandatory military service in Germany and I did shoot stationary targets a lot. Were you a soldier? Or do you talk again about something you have absolutely no clue of? Like DPS...

do you understand that there is a difference between being able to hit bullseye slowly with no interruptions and no moving targets, where you get to take aim, adjust it and fire.... and having to do that quickly, on a fly, while keeping track of other things?

do you realize that there are individual limits of just how quickly you can do that and that's why there are elite forces and then there are grunts?

oh never mind.

this game's pace is punishing for people with less then great dexterity. there is no way around it. no amount of practice will fix it. you either accept it. you you keep telling someone who for the lack of better comparison is color blind that if they only practice looking some more, they will see that difference between green and red.

P.S. i have played piano every day for about 8 years. several hours of daily practice. half of that time was spent practicing scales - the equivalent of dummy dps rotation practice. guess what. I hit my speed ceiling about 3 years in. and it never. got. any. better. my teacher realized that expecting me to be able to hit correct notes without having to look down on my fingers was never gonna happen - around year 4. there is. an individual. ability. ceiling. most games account for that and make their baseline more forgiving. ESO - makes over-world quest content more forgiving instead. but that means that for some players - it will be far too easy. and for other players, anything beyond normal - will be too hard.

and. i'm done. i have repeted myself at least half a dozen times at this point. I don't care anymore. as long as ZoS realizes that they need to keep overworld difficulty where it is. i don't care. so far they seem to realize it. I guess they want my money and money of people like me enough not to give in to "make it harder., ZoS" cries. good for them. and me.