dps gap may cause game development gap?

nnargun

It's 100% obvious that practicing your rotation makes the entire combat easier. I'm not gonna debate this any more.

That you have issues pressing buttons I understood some time ago.

badmojo

Linaleah wrote: »

edited to add - there is a post above talking about increasing difficulty to teach players. uh... no, that's not what's going to happen. what's going to happen is that these players who are suddenly having trouble with basic quests? are going to LEAVE the game.

Sure, and I am sure plenty of people have quit ESO because the content they were forced to complete was too easy.

I do not understand why people want this game to cater to players who dont want to learn basic mechanics. The mechanics in ESO are painfully easy to learn and only require the smallest amount of attention, its not like I am saying people should be running complex rotations and animation canceling. I am simply suggesting ZOS make things like blocking and interrupting required in order to progress. A great example of this would be a boss who heals themself unless interrupted, forcing a player to learn when and how to interrupt, or the boss will simply keep going back to 100% health.

People generally want to improve at the games they play, but if players arent pushed into learning, they tend to take the easy route and learn nothing.

I am not too proud to admit that I was VR16 with more than 2k hrs played before I bothered to learn when I should be interrupting. I never learned because I didnt need to. I wish the game had pushed these mechanics harder during early game so I didnt have to essentially relearn how to play when I hit end game.

AuldWolf

Looks like someone noticed difficulty creep.

"Oh, hey, there are a couple of hundred players exploiting this synergy to gain 50k DPS. That's not good. We should nerf both of the abilities involved."
"It's only that couple of hundred, though. What about the rest of the players? How will it affect them? Is it worth changing something to make the game difficult for a couple of hundred at the expense of everyone else?"
"It'll be fiiiine!"

After the patch lands...

"Oh no! We've lost hundreds of thousands of players! They're claiming that the game is too hard, that we broke their classes and that they have to respec and learn how to play their favourite characters all over again. They said we've done this to them lots and they've had enough, they're quitting! How could this have happened??? Why didn't we see it coming?? Whyyy?????"
"..."

I can only imagine these conversations have occurred and will actually occur inside of ZOS.

And lo, a greater divide between casuals and hardcore min-maxers.

It's nice that more and more people are beginning to understand the utter folly of difficulty creep though and why it's a far worse cancer to any game than power creep ever was. I'm glad. I wish other games I played had smarter communities who actually understood this. Then they might not have died.

Hyper-Literal Disclaimer: Yes, hundreds of thousands is hyperbole to make a point. It's not meant to be taken literally.

LioraValkyrie

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I know I'll get crapped down on this by a lot of top tier players, but I believe the only way that ZOS is ever going to successfully close that gap is to take out the ability to animation cancel.

In the least 'crap-on-y' way possible, I disagree and believe many people over-estimate the importance of animation cancelling and weaving to DPS. Having recently parsed 46k 3m solo on my magsorc, I can safely say I could push 40k doing neither weaving nor animation cancelling of any kind (I never do it deliberately by blocking, only on bar swap).

With the introduction of the Psijic skill line, ZoS has wholly endorsed light attack weaving as part of their game (Imbue Weapons, for instance, makes no sense without LA weaving).

My point is, weaving and cancelling are not the biggest reason for the DPS gap - this I would attribute to two things 1) class build and 2) accurate rotation. Since we cannot do anything about the fact that some players will have precise rotations and others will have messy ones, this leaves class build options as the only way to lower the DPS gap without changing the mechanics of the game.

I have met countless CP500+ dds going around wearing 4 heavy Julianos, 6 Elegant, and some random blue staff. They're usually using the Ritual mundus and have 22k health as well. The idea of a synergetic build has eluded them, and there is nothing in the game itself (only on YouTube) to instruct them otherwise.

So I would personally like to see something along the lines of an official ESO user's manual, like the ones that came printed in a nice little booklet with old-school computer games, that instructed players in the essentials of the game without their having to search through hundreds of semi-educational videos online. If everyone had a pretty good idea of what an endgame build for their class looked like, I believe the DPS gap would be much lower and the ESO community consequently much more integrated.

ZeroXFF

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

mateoz wrote: »

If you want to cut the gap between the floor (6k dps PUG in random) and the ceiling (45k+ pro DPS) its very simple:
Bring light and heavy attack where the worst player do 15k+ with heavy and lower the skills so pro DPS stay at the same DPS overall.
If they nerf the ceiling too hard everyone will complain, just bring the floor to 15k problem solve

The problem with this is that the mid-tier would be destroyed. Those that don’t weave light attacks, but have a decent rotation of skills would take a big hit.

The best solution would be to put light attacks on the same global cooldown as skills. It would kill LA weaving while having no effect on the "mid-tier" you're talking about, and it wouldn't be adding any sluggishness to the combat since animation cancelling itself would remain unchanged. A few skills and sets would have to be adjusted, but it's well within the scope of a single update cycle.

SupremeRissole

The devs are bridging the gap and here's how:

-Educating new players with advisor, which talks about weaving (note you can get high dps with a clean rota of weaving, ani cancelling isnt a necessity unless you want over 42k)

-Creating content with less dps gates and more mechanic heavy fights, these are what test all players.

-Nerfing harder to get weapons like the perfected inferno and allowing new players to run dual crafted sets like seducer + julianos which puts them in a good position to pull semi-high dps.

CompM4s

People that hit that high are running trial setups to max dps and not have self heals or do solo content. They also factor in frature or ele drain/ other team buffs.

Malacthulhu

You would lose the high end players, have you also maybe considered all the factors like for instance the 50 billion gear choices people have available. In PvE the choices become more narrow at the top end to whatever is BiS give or take. You have how many players that know x amount about the game choosing from the big gear pool. I think what op is suggesting would further homoginze the game, what is fun for everyone is very subjective and what is fun for the spider is chaos for the fly.

Waffennacht

I read the first few posts and the last few posts.

Look, with an imperfect rotation, no trial gear, but BiS next non-trial gear, decent but not perfect rotation, ACing, weaving, correct Mundus food etc

You should hit 30k dps with some effort.

You should at the very minimum hit 20k do on a DD character.

Anything lower and I don't blame your skills as a player, but rather your attitude towards creating your character.

Sub 20k dps and I start thinking stuff like - He's a role player and is going to use a "bow wizard" no matter how much it causes the rest of his team to suffer" - I get mad, because you are joining a team effort knowing you're running a build you're fully capable of making actually decent. I.e. your selfishness is costing us.

Because there's no way you got to the high CPs without knowing wtf makes a good build. You gotta be doing something poorly on purpose to satisfy your own desires.

Now low Cp, no prob, I expect you to struggle. But 600+ I have some GD expectations!

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Sub 20k dps and I start thinking stuff like - He's a role player and is going to use a "bow wizard" no matter how much it causes the rest of his team to suffer" - I get mad, because you are joining a team effort knowing you're running a build you're fully capable of making actually decent. I.e. your selfishness is costing us.

This is my key problem with the game and why I'm currently not playing. I'm fully capable of getting good performance. Skill isn't my issue. I have more 99th percentile parses in wow than I can count. I REFUSE to indulge the idea that I have to use a bow on my character, because $#%^ range weps, and I REFUSE to use anything other than a big 2h sword. That's just how I envision my character and in a game that touts character customization as a corner stone, it's pathetic I can't actually achieve my goals with the vision I have for the character I want to play in my head.

I shouldn't be missing out on 20k dps just because I don't indulge meta builds. I'm pushing buttons in a logical order just as well as the next guy and avoiding stuff properly. Why can't I have the numbers my performance justifies?

Forget ZOS as a company and a game dev. They're horrible.

aetherial_heavenn

Apart from the physical problems with LA weaving mentioned by several players, there are some concerns about how we 'B Graders' will continue to do harder content if the game is developed with the assumptions that we all have great twitch reflexes, multi button mice, and programmable keypads, and we all have low ping...ie have max of 100ms latency.

My concern is if the trend to design combat around instant connections and high end PC peripherals, more and more players will be left behind. Under a well designed combat system, we all have a chance to get better by learning our class and optimizing our skill choice and gear choice The problem in future in my opinion, is not the super 40k plus dpsers ,nor the sub 20K dpsers, it's those of us in the middle ground who know we will never be Alcast or play with Hodor but could do a vMOL wihth a good group. We may end up overlooked entirely in the move to 'raise the floor' through encouraging LA spam, because that also raises the ceiling in the current iteration of combat mechanics.

I understand fast game play feels great and that some things like latency are beyond ZOS control. I acknowledge that some improvement is in my hands.... I can practice all I like to get better reflexes/learn mechanics. I can spend real money and choose to buy better PC peripherals ...although Xbox/controller users don't have that choice.

What I can't do is fix my ping or my physical reaction speed

The new combat system focus on LA spam affects players with high ping, no matter how much we practice..The game is increasingly designed to be played on PC's connected to US backbone through a high speed connection that doesn't hitch or stutter.

Just one exampled from this thread discussing Aussies' AVERAGE 320MS ping:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394850/australian-latency-numbers/p2

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

The best part about 300+ is getting killed outside the red and called a bad player for being in the red.

I reckon the best part about 300+ Ping is all the people with 50 ping telling you it's easy to weave and to Git Gud then complain when their ping hits 120.

That or getting killed by 20 hits in 1 seconds in cyrodi from a single player.

Players who leave Australia/Asia internet and play in US or even Europe report they get an instant minimum 5 k parse boost (some report 8-10k with same rotation as before) This comes from from animation cancelling and weaving/bar swapping actually working. Skills actually firing. etc. Players in Aus who can route through the US akamai server, not the cheap asian server say they get 5 k dps boost. Players who use a VPN from north Asia get immediate noticeable benefits ie don't hit by the red as the hit box moves with us when we roll dodge. Break free actually works rather than taking stamina but not breaking/interrupting. The joy of actually seeing effects before being on the receiving end is boundless.

I and many other Oceanic players still manage to do vet content and PvP despite these issues, however if the dps minimums increase to 35K plus for vet content, purely due to twitchy combat mechanics (like animation cancelling,instant bar swapping and incessant LA weaving all being mandatory) then overcoming the barrier is no longer entirely in the players hands. ie I can't 'get gud'' if I can't use the optimal combat mechanics required because the internet simply won't let me.

Players can L2P/get good by correctly ordering skill firings so that they buff each other or burst., using passives optimally, using debuffs at the right time, using the exact skill for the circumstances. All of these are marks of a great player with a good rotation who understands the combat mechanics.... and yet they don't require perfect connections and speedy button clicking. This meant that those of who cannot react quickly due to technology or physical limitations can still be viable in the B plus teams. ie we get to do vet trials and vet dlc effectively even if we don't break speed records.

I hope future dungeons/instances/trials ie harder content design keeps us in mind and doesn't just require 'moah deep's and more/faster roll dodging but requires focused team play and skill combos...even across classes.. for example defile plus fracture must be applied at a specific fight transition or some-such, with normal having the tutorial pop up first time in to explain the mechanics in a lore friendly way so people get to learn...

edit: [tangent:
The lack of explanation of mechanics also contributes to the problem for many transitioning from normal to vet. The mechanics don't apply in normal so the gulf between it's rofl stomp easy on 40k+ dps and impossible on 15k is apparent.

TL:DR
edit

SupremeRissole wrote: »

The devs are bridging the gap and here's how:

-Educating new players with advisor, which talks about weaving (note you can get high dps with a clean rota of weaving, ani cancelling isnt a necessity unless you want over 42k)

-Creating content with less dps gates and more mechanic heavy fights, these are what test all players.

-Nerfing harder to get weapons like the perfected inferno and allowing new players to run dual crafted sets like seducer + julianos which puts them in a good position to pull semi-high dps.

I hope you are right and mechanics heavy continues...

phermitgb

after a certain point, trying to keep track of every argument made is more than my pathetic brain-meats can handle...

that being said...

the original concept of this post was positing the possibility that the massive disparity in "casual" dps (for lack of a better, widely recognized term) and top-tier dps (same) might be forcing the actual content creators to create content that is so far and away inaccessible to one group of players while catering to a relatively small group of other players, and that scaling back (not eliminating entirely) the huge disparity might create the opportunity for more satisfyingly "challenging" content for both groups

now, I'll be the first to admit that this is only a "question" I have - I'm not convinced this is the case, it's just my personal suspicion...

with that, a few side-questions seem to have cropped up...and I feel like they ultimately speak to a slightly different issue

1 - we've got a number of people saying that it's quite easy for "casual" dps'ers to reach an appreciable fraction of the hard core player dps levels. I don't personally know if this is completely true or not, but I'm willing to stipulate...
because, whether true or not, it doesn't actually invalidate my original point - it just shifts the number ranges we're talking about

my original concept places "casual" dps somewhere in the 5-15k dps range (this doesn't mean that content is easy OR hard at this level of dps, it's just the level of dps you can get from people that aren't chasing down monster sets, are content with at best with crafted armor sets, and are playing skills because they *like* them rather than selecting skills for particular synergies or whatnot, same with cp's)
and placing "hard core" dps at somewhere in the 40-45k dps + range (and going as high as 65k as I've seen some posts claiming)

now, the follow-up argument by several people (which I feel more or less represents a mindset of a particular fraction of the ESO population, because I've seen their arguments before in other similar threads) is that it's not hard for a 10k dps'er to hit 30k ish dps

and I'm willing to believe that this is true - but it's beside the point

the above description of casual has a particular playstyle in mind, and it DOES, to a certain extent, involve skill and dedication, but it's CASUAL skill and dedication, precisely for the reason that the above people don't necessarily want to play this game like it's some kind of olympian ideal, or a career, or whatever - they want to have fun with a game - that's all - and the effort they spend getting "good" at the game is limited to whatever limited free time they have

the 2nd description describes people that INVEST, for lack of a better term, into the game. For these people, they "work" at getting better at the game. They train, they experiment, they study, they test, etc, etc...

now, this is fine also. In fact, I think it's great that the game has such content and versatility that it can support a group of people that want to invest a significant portion of their lives into exploring all the variations and possibilities

BUT...

just how far apart should the two groups be? When we create content for casual people to be challenged by and enjoyed to a certain extent, and when we create content that challenges the people that put far more time into the effort, just how different do both of those contents need to be?

truth is, from a design perspective, I think the answer is...WHATEVER THE DEV'S WANT IT TO BE...depending on how they design armor sets, cp point synergies, skill buff/debuff synergies, animation cancelling, weaving, etc, etc...they can determine just how much top tier damage does vs how much damage someone does with the stuff they get from just playing around...

so the question then becomes, how much of a gap between casual and top-tier is HEALTHY FOR THE GAME AS A WHOLE?...
what happens when the divide becomes so titanically large that the content for one group vs other is nearly unrecognizable as the same content? is that good? is it bad?

and yes - there are going to be almost as many different opinions/answers as there are people responding...
"opinions are like armpits - everyone has them, and most of them stink" (some versions of adage use a different body part)

but the reason I brought up the "QUESTION" is because I feel like the answer is that our current dps gap is getting...too wide, and that it's not healthy for future development of the game. Future dungeons, pvp "adjustments" to skills, overland content - the wider we make the dps gap, the less happy I think both communities are going to become. "casuals" will continue to find pvp increasingly out of reach because of the titanic divide between top-tier dps and their own, top-tier pve'ers will still want higher rewards to compensate them for the extra time and effort they put into the game, forcing developers to build dungeons that have damage and mechanics that are nigh-inaccessible to anyone not top tier, with exclusive rewards and gear that is now out of reach to a large portion of population, while top-tier dps will continue to complain that overland quest content is boring and/or too easy, etc, etc...

I'm serious - I'm still not convinced that ULTIMATELY, everyone will be happier if dev's do some kind of major pass across all damage sources, and re-adjust the floor/ceiling of dps, and THEN make adjustments to dungeons, overland content, skills and their pvp effects, and so on

yes, SOME people will rage at the machine, because ARRRGGGHHHH CHANGE!!! and at least a few people will scream COMMUNISM!! when they more accurately mean SOCIALISM!!...but I'm still not convinced yet that we all wouldn't be happier if we just did it, and adjusted to it

but I'm still willing to be convinced...and yes, things would get lost in exchange for things we get - there's always a cost/benefit analysis to be done for any change, especially a large-scale one, to any system - but the fact that it'll cost us something doesn't NECESSARILY mean we shouldn't do it

LadyLethalla

While I get what you're saying, OP (and I admit I've only read the first dozen or so posts at this point), I would say no, I don't want them to reduce DPS across the board. Simply because it would hurt everyone.

I'm not a min-maxer; I don't even do any "rotation" as such and I haven't done a dummy parse in months. Why? I have really awful ADSL internet. Light attacks don't fire. Bars won't swap - or when they do I've already pressed bar swap again and I'm back on the first bar. Heavy attacks don't fire even if my reticle is on the enemy. So I can't see any point in doing a parse or rotation. And because of my choice of server and timezone, I don't get to join vet trials unless a group of friends is willing to do a morning run (my evening) - mostly just for me. (Late night - my morning - is even rarer, since most people won't start any trial at 11:30pm and I can't get up at 4am on weekends.)

Despite all of my internet woes I did manage to complete VMA for the first time, 5-6 weeks ago, after months of struggle. Since then I have been back in there, getting better at it. I've also soloed WBs and a couple of vet dungeons - which, like VMA, I never thought was possible on my internet, with my "old person" lack of reflexes.

So no, I don't want that gap closed. The more DPS I can get - with all the associated disparity between new players at one end of the spectrum and the l33t folk at the top - with me probably not even halfway btw the two extremes - the better IMO.

nnargun

phermitgb wrote: »

and placing "hard core" dps at somewhere in the 40-45k dps + range (and going as high as 65k as I've seen some posts claiming)

Could you please prove this somehow? Self-buffed single target please. Sorry if you did and I missed it.

Highest DPS requirements for progressive raiding guilds are in the range 35-40k DPS afaik. Thus, that is what I consider top tier DPS and what I think we should be comparing to bottom tier DPS. And maybe we should also exclude the complete low end <15k DPS because why consider players who don't even care about improvement? As others have mentioned - If you are stuck that low, you don't have a proper build, haven't thought about a proper rotation and certainly haven't trained it on target dummy. And if all of that is true please don't come here to whine about your low DPS. Seriously now. I get >16k DPS only by spamming heavy attack, blockade and liquid lightning. That's keeping one button pressed while alternating between two other buttons, no buffs to activate, no weaving, no ultimate, no potion, nothing. A not very well trained monkey could do that.
And the absolute high end 50k+ DPS on stamNB with dynamic rotation, lover mundus, and CP allocated specifically for dummy parses is also not really relevant. People have to understand that the highest parses on youtube are basically cheese parses. Meaning build and rotation were optimized for that one purpose: a high DPS parse on target dummy.

A more or less valid discussion could be based on the difference in DPS between perfect weaving, trial gear, CP cap and well - imperfect or no weaving, non-trial gear, not CP capped. The differences are much less sensational though.

Mureel

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

You guys should ask someone "L33T" to actually watch you perform rotation and teach you what to do better.

I have, I have friends who would be the "L33T" you speak of.

My issue is mostly down to player skill and physical limitations which make spamming light attacks a pain (literally) for me.

I know these kind of issues very well as I suffer from a light arthrosis in my fingers too. But imo, we cannot really ask them to make the game generally easier for "disabled" people like us.

They don't have to make the game easier, it was fine before light weave and animation cancelling was an expected mechanic and balanced around.

I don't have an issue with people using them and the good players being good because of it, but the more they push that as the "standard system" and balance the content around it the more it leave behind players who can't do that for various reasons.

Is weaving LAs actually that crucial? I have never tried without. But I cannot really imagine that there is much content that you cannot do without it. Interesting actually. I will try and see tonight by how much my DPS drops without weaving LAs.

I believe at this point it's a very large part of a DPS rotation, more so after Summerset and the buff in damage.
Whilst content could be achievable without it in a practice and patient group I believe the new content had some higher expectations of damage than one can achieve without it. Especially speed run achievements.

Also I would imagine it varies by class, Nightblade (sadly my main) is one of the worse culprits for requiring light attack weaving due to it being how they proc damage skills and sustain themselves.
I would probably have a better time if I changed class but four years into the game I don't really want to do everything again on a new character (unless they give me a necromancer).

I understand I just sound whiny and I do understand the "git gud" argument to an extent, but my grumblings come from formally being able to achieve the best content and slowly being locked out of more and more as the DPS expectations increased over mechanics which I can't "git gud" at.

@Turelus
Hey, try your la/funnel weave now! I have avg 150-230 ping and is SO much better this patch! Rarely any more missing LA or la that become medium/heavy. You'll be surprised.

Kuwhar

Seri wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

@Seri : "I assume at this point in time, it'd be pointless to offer video of a CP ranked healer, with no food, wearing purple healer sets, getting hit by the big bad named boss in the Morrowind prequel quest, and being able to out heal the entire damage loadout of this named boss, with nothing but a Templar's Cleansing Ritual?"

Quite the opposite, that would be a very useful video, one which i'd be very interested in seeing.

@Kuwhar Make of this what you will. Yes, I bashed the fire knockback a couple of times, but I'm also stage 4 vampire and both her light and heavies are flame damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fXZ0psmvTo

Lol. Using rune focus, with 5 piece mending set which debuffs their damage, all purples and a couple gold pieces, bashing special attacks, and when the video first opened i noticed you went from like 10% to full, so obviously you were takong a beating and popped some kinda heal (missed what it was and they were able to get you down a couple other times.

I mean if anything that proves my point, you have good gear, levels, using protective skills, of course you can survive with out much effort, but do that on a lvl 25 with no set gear and no CP in light armor and get back to me.

Seri

Kuwhar wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

@Seri : "I assume at this point in time, it'd be pointless to offer video of a CP ranked healer, with no food, wearing purple healer sets, getting hit by the big bad named boss in the Morrowind prequel quest, and being able to out heal the entire damage loadout of this named boss, with nothing but a Templar's Cleansing Ritual?"

Quite the opposite, that would be a very useful video, one which i'd be very interested in seeing.

@Kuwhar Make of this what you will. Yes, I bashed the fire knockback a couple of times, but I'm also stage 4 vampire and both her light and heavies are flame damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fXZ0psmvTo

Lol. Using rune focus, with 5 piece mending set which debuffs their damage, all purples and a couple gold pieces, bashing special attacks, and when the video first opened i noticed you went from like 10% to full, so obviously you were takong a beating and popped some kinda heal (missed what it was and they were able to get you down a couple other times.

I mean if anything that proves my point, you have good gear, levels, using protective skills, of course you can survive with out much effort, but do that on a lvl 25 with no set gear and no CP in light armor and get back to me.

To be fair, the beating was me alt-tabbing for 30s to start up OBS, and actually getting hit by the heavy attack. But I said I was in healer gear originally - I never tried to hide that - I said it was purple healing gear (and the gold jewels is only what had dropped - gold mending vs purple mending doesn't change the amount of dmg mitigated or anything. Only benefit there would have been the 1pc kena). I also don't consider 'bashing the special' or heavy attack to be particularly end-game tier. Bashing is taught in the tutorial, and it's not locked behind being CP300 (despite what the dungeon finder sometimes tries to show me).

Even ignoring that, this is supposed to be a strong 'story boss', with 130k health or whatever it is. So for anyone even averaging a mere 10k dps, that is a 13 second fight.

Drummerx04

OP, that is basically why normal and veteran modes exist for all group content. Normal modes are generally possible to complete with dps <10k, and all vet content is generally comfortable to clear around 30k. 30k is pretty obtainable to get even with crafted gear.

It sucks for them, but ZOS can't realistically balance ESO for people with physical disabilities. Removing the skilled timing aspect involved in weaving and whatever animation cancelling would level the playing field, but it would make the game even more dependent upon min/maxing to achieve anything.

Eso actually does have interlinked global cool downs on skill casting, light attacks, and dodge/block actions. Notice how you can't just spam an instant cast skill 500 times in 1 second with a turbo function? That's why. Animation cancelling doesn't get around these cool downs, but it allows you to optimize possible damage output around them.