Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I don't really agree with OP about those groups causing server lag. I have seen plenty of them and hardly ever experience lag (unless there was 2 weeks without servers going down for maintenance).

I do agree on one thing though. AOE cap removal was supposed to stop ball groups. It has done the complete opposite. You can now take millions of damage from Proxy Detonation and it is impossible to stop groups like this. They have retreating manouver on 100% of the time. their AOE follows them around and it is spammable. There is no way to stop them unless they make a mistake and spread out too much or a few people turn in the wrong direction.

As for the 'You are in 20 ppl group yourself' argument? BS! Those groups target unguarded keeps and ungrouped (on TS or Disc.) players and run away when they see an organised group. I can take a mix of skills that those ball zergs use and admire their coordination but my death recap shows only Proxy Detonation and V.Death.

I think this skill needs a complete rework. I don't mind if they all stack Eye of Flame, that takes skill and preparation but exploding every 6 seconds at will causing millions of damage is just pure stupid. There is no fun in PvP when facing a Choo-Choo Boom-Boom Waka-Waka-Waka group.

ToRelax wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

I don't really agree with OP about those groups causing server lag. I have seen plenty of them and hardly ever experience lag (unless there was 2 weeks without servers going down for maintenance).

I do agree on one thing though. AOE cap removal was supposed to stop ball groups. It has done the complete opposite. You can now take millions of damage from Proxy Detonation and it is impossible to stop groups like this. They have retreating manouver on 100% of the time. their AOE follows them around and it is spammable. There is no way to stop them unless they make a mistake and spread out too much or a few people turn in the wrong direction.

As for the 'You are in 20 ppl group yourself' argument? BS! Those groups target unguarded keeps and ungrouped (on TS or Disc.) players and run away when they see an organised group. I can take a mix of skills that those ball zergs use and admire their coordination but my death recap shows only Proxy Detonation and V.Death.

I think this skill needs a complete rework. I don't mind if they all stack Eye of Flame, that takes skill and preparation but exploding every 6 seconds at will causing millions of damage is just pure stupid. There is no fun in PvP when facing a Choo-Choo Boom-Boom Waka-Waka-Waka group.

If you don't stack up, you take exactly the same damage as ever after AoE cap removal: All of it.
It would now be possible to burst down a stack of players regardless of their numbers. It's mostly Earthgore that prohibits this.

I might have worded it wrong. Not stacking when fighting against a group like this is pretty much a known tactic already but it still doesn't make any difference. Let's say there is a ball group of 20 and a keep is defended by 40. Ball group runs around at astonishing speeds taking ZERO damage (well tested: Me and my group shot 4 coldfire balistas, a firepot trebuchet and a fire balista at the ball group all in the space of maybe 3 or 4 secods. Their healthbars have not moved at all. All you see then is them picking one person after another, stacking 20 ultimates on top of 2 players. Rinse and repeat until everyone is dead. As it is now, Earthgore has killed big scale PvP for me completely. I usually just log off or go capture far away resources.

The only tactic remaining now against an organised group like this is to overwhelm them by 5 to 1.

I wonder what new monster set they will introduce now? '(2 piece bonus): Enemy keep walls and gates explode, ground opens and swallows up all enemy players into their respective loading screens. Also grants 10000 points to the scoreboard'

I honestly think ZOS is more geared towards rewarding troll play, not organised play.

And don't get me started on how big headed people in those groups are. They think they are gods because they can follow a symbol on the screen and press one of 5 keys on their keyboard when crown shouts is out over the microphone. I get that it's fun for them, but you gotta admit. It is cheesy gameplay, borderline on abusing the mechanics.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

With much respect to you Sir Agrippa (I've played against you for a long time), You don't have to own the DLC. Just need to have pay the 15$ a month for ESO plus. That's how I got my set. I used it in PvP as a healing sorc for a few months. But without a PvP guild atm, my sorc is back to DPS/survival build. The earthgore is sitting in inv. gather dust lol.

It is pretty OP, and it irks me that it may become totally useless after working pretty hard in PvE to farm it. That dungeon isn't easy for PvP'ers that lack decent PvE gear. All that said, I think it was ZoS' attempt at countering the Destro Ulti that came before it, and was wreaking havoc on pug masses =/

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

You can check the date here. https://youtu.be/pRRkAjvntDs

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel

Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.

The set indeed has fans.

Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.

I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel

Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.

The set indeed has fans.

Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.

I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.

I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....

And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.

Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed

*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.

Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)

And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

I never claimed that I'm unbiased. I mean sure, my bad, on stam DPS builds you can proc it, even tho thorvulkiin is still better imo.

However the rest of my points still stand and please note that I'm talking about Earthgore in its current state. Just to clarify: Since last big update it only removes one negative effect which greatly reduced the strength of the set.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel

Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.

The set indeed has fans.

Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.

I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.

I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....

And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.

Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed

*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.

Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)

And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps

It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:

"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."

Vigor exists.

And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.

I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.

It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel

Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.

The set indeed has fans.

Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.

I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.

I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....

And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.

Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed

*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.

Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)

And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps

It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:

"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."

Vigor exists.

And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.

I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.

It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.

Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)

I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.