The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Sooo AOE cap is swapped to AOE Stacking?
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Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
As for ultis being removed. When have nova or Veil been used in the current metas. Standard used to be immune (was changed and shifting is still immune) and negate sure it can be removed but seriously that's your argument? It's also a tiny chance of being removed with all the ground effects.Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on April 25, 2018 9:27PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"As for ultis being removed. When have nova or Veil been used in the current metas. Standard used to be immune (was changed and shifting is still immune) and negate sure it can be removed but seriously that's your argument? It's also a tiny chance of being removed with all the ground effects.
Lol yes that's my argument. It removes every single ground-based ultimate in the game not named Shifting Standard. That's just a simple fact. Your attempt to twist this into Joy not knowing how it works by clinging to the "s" at the end of "ultimate" is the height of pedantry. If someone asks me, "Hey, can earthgore remove my ultimate?" I'd probably reply something like "Yeah, it can potentially negate any ground effect including ultimates."
That's the hill you want to die on?Edited by Satiar on April 25, 2018 9:36PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'."good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
Don't you mean Malubeth?
(oh wait they already nerfed that ) Edited by Agrippa_Invisus on April 25, 2018 9:35PMAgrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
As for ultis being removed. When have nova or Veil been used in the current metas. Standard used to be immune (was changed and shifting is still immune) and negate sure it can be removed but seriously that's your argument? It's also a tiny chance of being removed with all the ground effects.
How did he make a mistake? By saying that you can proc earthgore in negates? Because that's not a mistake.
I suggest being less of an edgelord. /ominous2 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
Here I thought I was going to get in trouble by Digging Deeper. Turns out there's only disappointment
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost5 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
Note that during this absence Brian did speak to the discord pvp council and likely others. So he wasn't completely "away".Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on April 25, 2018 9:42PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.
The discussion isn't about whether Sanct was wrong in his dps statement. Its about whether what joy posted was accurate.@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.
The discussion isn't about whether Sanct was wrong in his dps statement. Its about whether what joy posted was accurate.
And it generally was. Earthgore more or less procs when needed, especially if it's in a stam heavy group. It removes ultimates. It gives a huge margin of error due to the survivability it confers. It's always brainless in its application because its ICD isn't long enough to be relevant.2 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is a long "Strengths: From My Point of View" Vs. "Weaknesses: From My Point of View" discussion. I'm in the It's-very-strong-and-probably-should-be-weaker-but-it's-also-very-frustrating-and-unpredicable-to-use camp.
Good points on all sides, really. It seems to proc at both horrible and wonderful times. Some times the cooldown feels nonexistent and sometimes it's an eternity depending on how much pressure is happening.
All I really want is a 2 piece healing focused set that doesn't suck, and Earthgore definitely doesn't suck.Edited by Sandman929 on April 25, 2018 9:53PM0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.
The discussion isn't about whether Sanct was wrong in his dps statement. Its about whether what joy posted was accurate.
Earthgore more or less procs when needed.
vsJoy_Division wrote: »does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP.
Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on April 25, 2018 9:54PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)2 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »This is a long "Strengths: From My Point of View" Vs. "Weaknesses: From My Point of View" discussion. I'm in the It's-very-strong-and-probably-should-be-weaker-but-it's-also-very-frustrating-and-unpredicable-to-use camp.
Good points on all sides, really. It seems to proc at both horrible and wonderful times. Some times the cooldown feels nonexistent and sometimes it's an eternity depending on how much pressure is happening.
All I really want is a 2 piece healing focused set that doesn't suck, and Earthgore definitely doesn't suck.
True. It's a perspective issue in many regards. Thus it's even more odd to try argue that X is objectively wrong. And yeah ... a 2 pc healing set that isn't usless or mad OP would be nice. But my fingers aren't crossed lol.
0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.
The discussion isn't about whether Sanct was wrong in his dps statement. Its about whether what joy posted was accurate.
Earthgore more or less procs when needed.
vsJoy_Division wrote: »does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP.
That's really your argument? That he used ALWAYS instead of something less absolute? It seemed obviously hyperbolic to me. @Joy_Division could confirm. The gist of what he is saying is correct. You and sanct also were not harping on the absoluteness of his statement earlier. You were arguing strongly that EG was not in fact too good or that Joy was wrong in thinking it too good. You're misrepresenting yourself, chief.
And if you're really just sweating over the usage of an absolute, you're absolutely just bring pedantic as Satiar mentioned.4 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To be fair, only a Sith deals in absolutes.
And Joy has always been fond of lightning sorc.
Interesting......
Perhaps there IS some point to digging deeper!Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost7 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
Here I thought I was going to get in trouble by Digging Deeper. Turns out there's only disappointment
Not digging deeper is an expression referring to people who try and dig themselves out of holes ending up in a larger hole.
https://youtu.be/GD6qtc2_AQA
Its not a perspective argument either. One statement is clearly wrong as it includes a definitive which can be proven incorrect.
I agree about requiring more diversity in healing sets though.@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
Here I thought I was going to get in trouble by Digging Deeper. Turns out there's only disappointment
Not digging deeper is an expression referring to people who try and dig themselves out of holes ending up in a larger hole.https://youtu.be/GD6qtc2_AQA
Its not a perspective argument either. One statement is clearly wrong as it includes a definitive which can be proven incorrect.
I agree about requiring more diversity in healing sets though.
Except people don't type in syllogisms. It's pretty obvious he was being hyperbolic and did not literally mean always, as in without fail. You'd have to be pretty tone deaf or personally biased against Joy to be so uncharitable.
:thinking:Edited by Egocanemveresum on April 25, 2018 10:13PM1 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.
You can read Sancts post.
ThanksAgrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps
It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:
"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."
Vigor exists.
And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.
I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.
It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.
Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)
I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.
Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.
idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.
Note that during this absence Brian did speak to the discord pvp council and likely others. So he wasn't completely "away".
Well, from a software point of view, the PVP segment of ESO has already reached the 'dismal failure' point. Even the slightest comparison of what the average nightly amount of Cyrodiil player base is versus just the amount of total players listed in Steam shows the PVP community to be a very minuscule percentage of the player base.
I'd rather they shut up shop, say they're leaving Cyrodiil in maintenance mode and focus on PVE than just say nothing. This would allow the PVP community to move on and maybe decide what to do with themselves instead of festering in our squalor. Obviously, I don't WANT this to happen. I WANT them to fix their mess that they made and get Cyrodiil back on track. I'll be singing their praises should that happen.
This community has given positive reinforcement when it's deserved. People fall over each other to be nice to anyone who even tries to say anything in here from ZOS, just in the hopes they won't go away again. That doesn't mean I have to be one of those people, and while I will be polite, I will not be kind.
What that means is, while I won't scream and curse them out, I will certainly point out their failures and state 'you've messed this part up'. Being up front and honest, in my opinion, is actually a critical part of showing respect for someone.
People hide from those that they disdain, they confront those that they respect. (and I don't mean confront in the adversarial usage of the term, but in the acknowledging and understanding of a thing)Edited by Agrippa_Invisus on April 25, 2018 10:13PMAgrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!2 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
Here I thought I was going to get in trouble by Digging Deeper. Turns out there's only disappointment
Not digging deeper is an expression referring to people who try and dig themselves out of holes ending up in a larger hole.https://youtu.be/GD6qtc2_AQA
Its not a perspective argument either. One statement is clearly wrong as it includes a definitive which can be proven incorrect.
I agree about requiring more diversity in healing sets though.
Except people don't type in syllogisms. It's pretty obvious he was being hyperbolic and did not literally mean always, as in without fail. You'd have to be pretty tone deaf or personally biased against Joy to be so uncharitable.
:thinking;
Or perhaps in the interest of an unbias discussion its important to point out errors and incorrect assertions. its interesting that people were so quick to point out that sanct didnt mention stam dps yet when sanct quite correctly pointed out that joys statement was incorrect @Satire decided that was a step too far.
:thinking:@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
EDIT: The "always" thing is possibly more ridiculous than the "s" part. People use always, and they don't mean LITERALLY ALWAYS. If someone tells you "damn, traffic is always bad on this highway" do you reply "ALWAYS? What about at 3:48 in the morning, huh?"Edited by Satiar on April 25, 2018 10:19PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.Joy_Division wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.
Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.
If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.
I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.
Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.
I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).
Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.
The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.
It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.
It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.
So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.
I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.
So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.
If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.
That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.
There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.
Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.
Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!
I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.
Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.
Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.
Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.
Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.
Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.
For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?
Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.
I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.
And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.
Crutchgore needs to go.
I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.
Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.
The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.
It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.
Yeah. I understand.
It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.
I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.
It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.
Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.
How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel
Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.
The set indeed has fans.
Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.
I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.
I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....
And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.
Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed
*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.
Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)
It will always proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed, that's the point. It's a smart heal. It automatically procs when you heal that low health target. He did specify in combat, so your critique, pedantic as it is, is also invalid. Earthgore will save low health targets, that's what it's built to do.
Also, yes it removes enemy ultimates! You're being, again, ridiculously pedantic but it does remove enemy ultimates! It removes, Standards, Negates, Novas, Veils, need I go on? So many ultimate(s) it is capable of removing!
You're so quick to try and rush to defense you are missing vital points.
You are simply incorrect I suggest you not dig deeper.
That was terribly ominous. Try being less pedantic in future discussions, it'll lead to better discourse from all involved. Like, seriously? Trying to twist the ultimate(s) thing around as Joy not knowing how the set works instead of him describing how it can nullify various class ultimate abilities? So dumb, dude.
You asked what was incorrect in the post. I told you. Now you are upset about this.
If earthgore was so amazing then why in all equal number GvGs is there never any stalemate.
The set can easily be baited proc's by randoms or NPCs or pets. Procced when falling or spell syming sanct mentioned all of these yet you still ignore it. I understand you want to defend joy but you could do it in other ways. Sancts post wasn't offensive just pointing out errors. Joy simply made a mistake could have easily just said yeh ok
I did not realize I was upset, I shall alert myself presently. You did indeed tell me things you thought were incorrect. You were the worst kind of incorrect--technically incorrect in addition to being factually incorrect--but eh.
Your first sentence is a false question. Might as well ask why every fight pre-barrier nerf didn't end in a stalemate. Overpowered sets doesn't mean everything, ever, ends in a tie. Who said that? Who even alluded to that? Nonsense, friend.
The next is also irrelevant to the topic. Yes there is counterplay, but that's not the sign of something not being overpowered. In fact, counterplay is an essential PART of something being overpowered! That's basically what it means: something so good and so effective that you have to build entire strategies to nullifying the advantage it gives. Your reply here is basically those "good 1vXers" talking about Zaan set like "ya just break the beam!"
This is like someone saying "I'm not mad your mad".
You asked what was wrong, you were told. Doesn't need further discussion in my eyes.
Here I thought I was going to get in trouble by Digging Deeper. Turns out there's only disappointment
Not digging deeper is an expression referring to people who try and dig themselves out of holes ending up in a larger hole.https://youtu.be/GD6qtc2_AQA
Its not a perspective argument either. One statement is clearly wrong as it includes a definitive which can be proven incorrect.
I agree about requiring more diversity in healing sets though.
Except people don't type in syllogisms. It's pretty obvious he was being hyperbolic and did not literally mean always, as in without fail. You'd have to be pretty tone deaf or personally biased against Joy to be so uncharitable.
:thinking;
Or perhaps in the interest of an unbias discussion its important to point out errors and incorrect assertions. its interesting that people were so quick to point out that sanct didnt mention stam dps yet when sanct quite correctly pointed out that joys statement was incorrect @Satire decided that was a step too far.
:thinking:
But there are no incorrect assertions. You are banking that Joy, who was clearly being hyperbolic (very few instances of the word "absolutely" refer to its technical definition), actually meant absolute in its technical definition. And because he almost certainly didn't mean absolutely as in an actual absolute, he was correct. Earthgore procs when necessary more often than otherwise, particularly in stam heavy groups who can use their primary heals silenced, and allows a huge margin for error due to the survivability it conveys.
Sanct's primary point was highly subjective. He said that it hardly proc'd when it was needed. Other people chimed in to say it does. Whose anecdote should I take more seriously? Yours and sanct's or theirs? Positing an obvious matter of perspective as an objective fact is quite disingenuous.
The extent to which you are insisting Joy has to be wrong, despite you earlier arguing against his obvious implications about EG and not harping on his usage of "absolute", suggests that you're not in this for any sort of unbiased discussion. You understood the implication and disagreed with that, not his literal usage of "absolute". I think you just don't like him and jump at that chance to condescend to him, tbh.Edited by Egocanemveresum on April 25, 2018 10:23PM4 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
@Solar_Breeze
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Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This could be an office episode.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Joy correctly described how the item set functions. I'm not sure how that's unclear at this stage. You not knowing how human language works is not his fault.Edited by Satiar on April 25, 2018 10:27PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TheValar85 wrote: »Vilestride wrote: »You're in a 20 group dude. What's the issue?
Have you read all of my post or just looked at the image? I said the rest of teh enemy group was not even loaded, later on around 2 misn later the whole wall was full of them, my fps were 1 and my latency was 900. even i was unable to get a screenshot from that.
About my group then, 20 peeps against aoe stackers? is that a sirius question? were you ever in that situation my friend?
I gues not becuase you would't asked that question (please dont take it personaly i have nothing against you in real life)
@Vilestride he’s right, I’m quite sure you’ve NEVER been in this situation you scrub 0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This could be an office episode.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Joy correctly described how the item set functions. I'm not sure how that's unclear at this stage. You not knowing how human language works is not his fault.
Earthgore soaks up an (singular) enemy placed effect not ultimates.@Solar_Breeze
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EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Egocanemveresum✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Sanct wrote earlier: "This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG."
That implies far more than merely forgetting to add "magicka". It completely forwent the fact that Vigor is not only a thing, but a very common thing. It had not crossed his mind as he was typing that. So he was actually just wrong about that. He didn't include all possible scenarios. Joy using hyperbole in a generally true statement is not, in fact, technically wrong. Intended meaning is a huge part of language and you even caught what he actually meant in subsequent posts because you directed your disagreement at his implied meaning, not his choice of absolute descriptions. You might argue that you THINK it's wrong for some anecdotal reason ... but all you have are anecdotes. Your opinions aren't facts, bud.
And yes, this is very offtopic of the original thread. But so was sanct's post directed at Joy, whose post was off topic, as were all of your subsequent posts. The point in bringing this up was ... ?
Lastly, you ought to try this thing called "saying what you mean" because this open-ended implication thing really just makes you look like an edgelord. My response was funny? Well, not really. It was telling? Of what exactly?Edited by Egocanemveresum on April 25, 2018 10:34PM2 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This could be an office episode.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Joy correctly described how the item set functions. I'm not sure how that's unclear at this stage. You not knowing how human language works is not his fault.
Earthgore soaks up an (singular) enemy placed effect not ultimates.
And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Egocanemveresum wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Sanct wrote earlier: "This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG."
That implies far more than merely forgetting to add "magicka". It completely forwent the fact that Vigor is not only a thing, but a very common thing. It had not crossed his mind as he was typing that. So he was actually just wrong about that. He didn't include all possible scenarios. Joy using hyperbole in a generally true statement is not, in fact, technically wrong. You might argue that you THINK it's wrong for some anecdotal reason ... but all you have are anecdotes. Your opinions aren't facts, bud.
Yes. This is very offtopic of the original thread. But so was sanct's post directed at Joy, whose post was off topic, and all of your subsequent posts. The point in bring this up was ... ?
Lastly, you ought to try this thing called "saying what you mean" because this open-ended implication thing really just makes you look like an edgelord. My response was funny? Well, not really. It was telling? Of what exactly?
If you want to be pedantic Vigor is a hot like rapid regen. Also I wasn't referring to you with my statement of a response being funny don't take that to heart though, I'm sure you are a very funny person tooIzanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This could be an office episode.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »The essential difference in this conversation was the initial accusation of bias at Joy. It wasn't enough to disagree, or try to counterpoint, or point out the things he thought were incorrect. No. Joy wasn't just wrong, he was wrong and biased. Shaky ground to begin a good faith discussion on.
The other difference is that while the things you're calling incorrect are merely attempting to pedantically twist Joys words to fit your purpose, Sanct just flat out stated DPS can't reliably trigger EG inside negates. That was a clear wrong and that's why everyone jumped on it. As opposed to.... say.... you arguing over the "s" in ultimates or stressing the absolute nature of "always".
One argument actually addresses the point of the thread. The other is just a pedantic attempt to be right. Don't be that guy.
Neither address the point of the thread. This discussion is all entirely off topic.
Also sanct mearly forgot to add "magicka" in front of his statement vs someone saying that something "always occurs when needed" as well as incorrectly referring to how an itemset functions.
your interpretation may vary but your response to the situation was both funny and telling
Joy correctly described how the item set functions. I'm not sure how that's unclear at this stage. You not knowing how human language works is not his fault.
Earthgore soaks up an (singular) enemy placed effect not ultimates.
And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.
No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.
I could say you so desperately want him to by right at this point but the argument is pointless. Sancts post was correct but omited stamina heals. Joys post had some valid points but omitted facts and objectivity including some incorrect statements
Arguement over Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on April 25, 2018 10:38PM@Solar_Breeze
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