Sooo AOE cap is swapped to AOE Stacking?

Satiar

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to deprive Joy of his latest novel by speaking for him on such subjects
Glad to be able to teach you some things about arguments.

In the past I've also quite easily ended them by offering a GvG as well but it didn't seem to be required in this case.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to deprive Joy of his latest novel by speaking for him on such subjects
Glad to be able to teach you some things about arguments.

In the past I've also quite easily ended them by offering a GvG as well but it didn't seem to be required in this case.

"Meet me on the playground after school" always was a conversation stopper in middle school, but it lost its sting in my teenage years.

Egocanemveresum

If you want to be pedantic Vigor is a hot like rapid regen. Also I wasn't referring to you with my statement of a response being funny don't take that to heart though, I'm sure you are a very funny person too

You said my response to the situation was funny and telling. Your exact words (I am copy/pasting ): "... but your response to the situation was both funny and telling." It wasn't really funny. And it was telling of what, exactly?

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.
I could say you so desperately want him to by right at this point but the argument is pointless. Sancts post was correct but omited stamina heals. Joys post omitted facts and objectivity.

This is super duper pedantic. Does Earthgore also remove ground ultimates? Yes. Absolutely. So was Joy incorrect in pointing that out? No. In order for that statement to be wrong it would have to be demonstrably false in some manner. But it's not. It's actually true. The argument ought to be over because at this point you're just trying to save face. But I have an inkling that it will continue until someone here falls asleep.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to deprive Joy of his latest novel by speaking for him on such subjects
Glad to be able to teach you some things about arguments.

In the past I've also quite easily ended them by offering a GvG as well but it didn't seem to be required in this case.

"Meet me on the playground after school" always was a conversation stopper in middle school, but it lost its sting in my teenage years.

Acting in a childish manor often encourages childish responses.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to deprive Joy of his latest novel by speaking for him on such subjects
Glad to be able to teach you some things about arguments.

In the past I've also quite easily ended them by offering a GvG as well but it didn't seem to be required in this case.

"Meet me on the playground after school" always was a conversation stopper in middle school, but it lost its sting in my teenage years.

Acting in a childish manor often encourages childish responses.

Such as.... "I can't win a forum argument so I'll challenge you to a fight"?

That kind of childishness?

Sanct16

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore. Me saying someone was "biased" lead to some huge discussion thats just turning in circles while everyone completly ignores all the other points I brought up.

Joy's statement is just not correct. Can we stop arguing about semantics in my comment? Earthgore is a very random set that might proc when you need it but will also often not proc when you need it but at random times.

Also please keep in mind that you guys seem to be have a problem with Earthgore so I think it's a bit funny that you're trying to tell me how amazing your precious Stam DPS are. It's truly no miracle that Stam DPS exists so maybe there is a reason why I prefer Magicka DPS over Stam. For my raid it's no problem to survive without Earthgore and it's no problem to kill enemies who wear Earthgore. Of course we still run it on our healers because it's best-in-slot for healers but thats about it.

Nerfing Earthgore will change absolutely nothing. The sooner people realise this, the less disappointed everyone will be when they realise that I was right.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »
» show previous quotes

And yet, it is correct to say, "Earthgore soaks up enemy ultimates such as Etc. Etc. Etc." You so desperately want him to be wrong at this point it's sad.

No its not correct to say this it is incorrect by omission.

What? Lol. No. That is exactly what it does. He does not need to describe every mechanic in order to be correct. All he needs to say is, "it soaks up enemy ultimates." Which it does. All kinds of ground effects and ultimates. You can ask followup questions if you're confused such as: "Does it negate multiple effects and ultimates at once?" People would probably look at you funny because of course it doesn't, but if you're confused it's worth temporary embarrassment to get clarity!

But that's up to you to ask. I think Joy believed experienced players like yourself would assume some measure of shared knowledge. He was wrong to believe this, sadly.

Wait, can I just say argument over and it's done now? ARGUMENT OVER. Mine was in caps. It's stronger. This is a strange and seductive power, probably not something the Jedi would teach me...

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to deprive Joy of his latest novel by speaking for him on such subjects
Glad to be able to teach you some things about arguments.

In the past I've also quite easily ended them by offering a GvG as well but it didn't seem to be required in this case.

"Meet me on the playground after school" always was a conversation stopper in middle school, but it lost its sting in my teenage years.

Acting in a childish manor often encourages childish responses.

Such as.... "I can't win a forum argument so I'll challenge you to a fight"?

That kind of childishness?

Actually some would argue its more adult to agree to disagree and offer a fight in the 'game' that both parties are playing to settle their differences.


Also @Egocanemveresum
Unless you are Satire's second account you can clearly see I quoted his post.

https://i.imgur.com/iLmRsV3.png

Sanct clarified his position im sure that you will find some consolation his response So I refer you to the above post.

Satiar

Sanct16 wrote: »

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore. Me saying someone was "biased" lead to some huge discussion thats just turning in circles while everyone completly ignores all the other points I brought up.

Joy's statement is just not correct. Can we stop arguing about semantics in my comment? Earthgore is a very random set that might proc when you need it but will also often not proc when you need it but at random times.

Also please keep in mind that you guys seem to be have a problem with Earthgore so I think it's a bit funny that you're trying to tell me how amazing your precious Stam DPS are. It's truly no miracle that Stam DPS exists so maybe there is a reason why I prefer Magicka DPS over Stam. For my raid it's no problem to survive without Earthgore and it's no problem to kill enemies who wear Earthgore. Of course we still run it on our healers because it's best-in-slot for healers but thats about it.

Nerfing Earthgore will change absolutely nothing. The sooner people realise this, the less disappointed everyone will be when they realise that I was right.

I've been through every single iteration of ESO PvP, I'm not ignorant of how groups adapt and change to nerfs. I've done so many times. You too have been through this, so you shouldn't be so surprised when it comes up. Earthgore in its initial form was unbelievably broken. In its current form it's so good that even DPS aren't out of place wearing it. Most people would like it in an area where it's a comfortably good healing set.

I'm not going to go over "joy's not correct" again, but there was no reason to call him biased. Why did you do that, anyways? There's plenty of room for discussion and points given/received on both sides (you think Joy is wrong on some points, you obviously missed things in your own post). Coming out of the gate like you did doesn't invite good things.

Egocanemveresum

Except Sanct's response added new information which his original failed to account for. Joy's did not. Hence, that statement of his was wrong. You're really just a Joy and Satiar hater tbh.

ShadowProc

Anazasi wrote: »

It was only a matter of time before the scenarios of launch returned. Congratulations, we have come full circle and the journey only took roughly 4 years.

"smaller" groups complaining about zerging "larger" groups rationalizing their behavior; all we need now is Frozn screaming "spread out" and we will be right back to year 1.5 where the only enemy we all fight regularly is the server lag.

Anazasi wrote: »

It was only a matter of time before the scenarios of launch returned. Congratulations, we have come full circle and the journey only took roughly 4 years.

"smaller" groups complaining about zerging "larger" groups rationalizing their behavior; all we need now is Frozn screaming "spread out" and we will be right back to year 1.5 where the only enemy we all fight regularly is the server lag.

Sanct16

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore. Me saying someone was "biased" lead to some huge discussion thats just turning in circles while everyone completly ignores all the other points I brought up.

Joy's statement is just not correct. Can we stop arguing about semantics in my comment? Earthgore is a very random set that might proc when you need it but will also often not proc when you need it but at random times.

Also please keep in mind that you guys seem to be have a problem with Earthgore so I think it's a bit funny that you're trying to tell me how amazing your precious Stam DPS are. It's truly no miracle that Stam DPS exists so maybe there is a reason why I prefer Magicka DPS over Stam. For my raid it's no problem to survive without Earthgore and it's no problem to kill enemies who wear Earthgore. Of course we still run it on our healers because it's best-in-slot for healers but thats about it.

Nerfing Earthgore will change absolutely nothing. The sooner people realise this, the less disappointed everyone will be when they realise that I was right.

I've been through every single iteration of ESO PvP, I'm not ignorant of how groups adapt and change to nerfs. I've done so many times. You too have been through this, so you shouldn't be so surprised when it comes up. Earthgore in its initial form was unbelievably broken. In its current form it's so good that even DPS aren't out of place wearing it. Most people would like it in an area where it's a comfortably good healing set.

I'm not going to go over "joy's not correct" again, but there was no reason to call him biased. Why did you do that, anyways? There's plenty of room for discussion and points given/received on both sides (you think Joy is wrong on some points, you obviously missed things in your own post). Coming out of the gate like you did doesn't invite good things.

To me "biased" is no insult or anything. I'm no native speaker so maybe it has a stronger meaning than I'm aware of.

EGs initial form is entirely irrelevant to this discussion imo so bringing it up feels pointless.

Anyway tho, I think using Earthgore even on a Stam DPS is not optimal. Thorvukin is more way more reliable while still providing a very strong bonus while being unnegateable. Of course it's not completly horrible to run it but in terms of DPS chars it's on the same level as using Bloodspawn and Velidreth, so I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

On Healer the issue is more the lack of alternatives. I don't think that EG on healer is stronger than Grothdarr on bomber, relatively speaking. So also don't really see a big issue here.

Egocanemveresum

Sanct16 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore. Me saying someone was "biased" lead to some huge discussion thats just turning in circles while everyone completly ignores all the other points I brought up.

Joy's statement is just not correct. Can we stop arguing about semantics in my comment? Earthgore is a very random set that might proc when you need it but will also often not proc when you need it but at random times.

Also please keep in mind that you guys seem to be have a problem with Earthgore so I think it's a bit funny that you're trying to tell me how amazing your precious Stam DPS are. It's truly no miracle that Stam DPS exists so maybe there is a reason why I prefer Magicka DPS over Stam. For my raid it's no problem to survive without Earthgore and it's no problem to kill enemies who wear Earthgore. Of course we still run it on our healers because it's best-in-slot for healers but thats about it.

Nerfing Earthgore will change absolutely nothing. The sooner people realise this, the less disappointed everyone will be when they realise that I was right.

I've been through every single iteration of ESO PvP, I'm not ignorant of how groups adapt and change to nerfs. I've done so many times. You too have been through this, so you shouldn't be so surprised when it comes up. Earthgore in its initial form was unbelievably broken. In its current form it's so good that even DPS aren't out of place wearing it. Most people would like it in an area where it's a comfortably good healing set.

I'm not going to go over "joy's not correct" again, but there was no reason to call him biased. Why did you do that, anyways? There's plenty of room for discussion and points given/received on both sides (you think Joy is wrong on some points, you obviously missed things in your own post). Coming out of the gate like you did doesn't invite good things.

To me "biased" is no insult or anything. I'm no native speaker so maybe it has a stronger meaning than I'm aware of.

EGs initial form is entirely irrelevant to this discussion imo so bringing it up feels pointless.

Anyway tho, I think using Earthgore even on a Stam DPS is not optimal. Thorvukin is more way more reliable while still providing a very strong bonus while being unnegateable. Of course it's not completly horrible to run it but in terms of DPS chars it's on the same level as using Bloodspawn and Velidreth, so I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

On Healer the issue is more the lack of alternatives. I don't think that EG on healer is stronger than Grothdarr on bomber, relatively speaking. So also don't really see a big issue here.

But you realize these are anecdotal, correct? You are convinced by your own experiences. Other are convinced of theirs. Is Joy really any more biased than you by having his own anecdotes? You surely support your own by referring to people who feel the same way. Joy likely does the same. Perhaps calling him biased was a bit unwarranted then? It's not a grave insult at all. But that Iza character seems pretty dead set on white knighting you while condescending to Joy, which has blown what could have been a 3-post tangent into all of this mess.

Sanct16

Egocanemveresum wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore. Me saying someone was "biased" lead to some huge discussion thats just turning in circles while everyone completly ignores all the other points I brought up.

Joy's statement is just not correct. Can we stop arguing about semantics in my comment? Earthgore is a very random set that might proc when you need it but will also often not proc when you need it but at random times.

Also please keep in mind that you guys seem to be have a problem with Earthgore so I think it's a bit funny that you're trying to tell me how amazing your precious Stam DPS are. It's truly no miracle that Stam DPS exists so maybe there is a reason why I prefer Magicka DPS over Stam. For my raid it's no problem to survive without Earthgore and it's no problem to kill enemies who wear Earthgore. Of course we still run it on our healers because it's best-in-slot for healers but thats about it.

Nerfing Earthgore will change absolutely nothing. The sooner people realise this, the less disappointed everyone will be when they realise that I was right.

I've been through every single iteration of ESO PvP, I'm not ignorant of how groups adapt and change to nerfs. I've done so many times. You too have been through this, so you shouldn't be so surprised when it comes up. Earthgore in its initial form was unbelievably broken. In its current form it's so good that even DPS aren't out of place wearing it. Most people would like it in an area where it's a comfortably good healing set.

I'm not going to go over "joy's not correct" again, but there was no reason to call him biased. Why did you do that, anyways? There's plenty of room for discussion and points given/received on both sides (you think Joy is wrong on some points, you obviously missed things in your own post). Coming out of the gate like you did doesn't invite good things.

To me "biased" is no insult or anything. I'm no native speaker so maybe it has a stronger meaning than I'm aware of.

EGs initial form is entirely irrelevant to this discussion imo so bringing it up feels pointless.

Anyway tho, I think using Earthgore even on a Stam DPS is not optimal. Thorvukin is more way more reliable while still providing a very strong bonus while being unnegateable. Of course it's not completly horrible to run it but in terms of DPS chars it's on the same level as using Bloodspawn and Velidreth, so I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

On Healer the issue is more the lack of alternatives. I don't think that EG on healer is stronger than Grothdarr on bomber, relatively speaking. So also don't really see a big issue here.

But you realize these are anecdotal, correct? You are convinced by your own experiences. Other are convinced of theirs. Is Joy really any more biased than you by having his own anecdotes? You surely support your own by referring to people who feel the same way. Joy likely does the same. Perhaps calling him biased was a bit unwarranted then? It's not a grave insult at all. But that Iza character seems pretty dead set on white knighting you while condescending to Joy, which has blown what could have been a 3-post tangent into all of this mess.

To me it's clear that everyone is biased - myself included. However Joy's comment is not correct as it stands. I have no problem admitting that my comment was incomplete in regard of Stam DPS and I don't mind people pointing out that my comment had some magicka bias. So why don't we just do the logical next step and draw a conclusion from this discussion?

- Earthgore requires no thought
- on magicka builds it's hard to proc it on demand
- on stamina builds you have more control because you can heal in negates
- the proc is quite random but with enough Earthgores you have a moderate chance to proc some at the right time
- It's an AoE heal, even tho the area is quite small so it might be more benefitial to avoid damage by spreading, rather than stacking in the circle
- It has a chance to remove enemy ultimates
- overall: High potential but also high variance

Does anyone disagree with any of these points or want to add anything?


PS: The reason why I took issue with the original post was mostly because I feel a lot of people just repeat what they read on the forums without questioning it. The overall tenor of this thread was that Earthgore is somehow the reason why groups are successful, which is completly wrong.

Ixtyr

Y'all take this *** way too seriously.

Lighten up, drink a beer, *** a broad, eat a bagel.

Yeesh.

CyrusArya

Oh brother, not this again....

Satiar

That's amazing

angeleda

You do realize that this is what EP and AD have been doing in Sotha and Vivec for months... right? And you noticed now on DC??

IF anything, i would be "glad" that some DC picked up on the trend because AD and EP are notoriously bad players (talking about the majority of inexperienced ones that go AD for the "ooooh magicka sorc class yeeeeeh!!!" or the EP because of Skyrima and Morrowind etc) and they have to stack up like that (and morning cap Vivec AD and Sotha EP to have a change to complete during prime time, so i get it)

Even "good" players like well known sorcs of Vivec (don't really consider it much of a challenge to play magsorc in CP campaign as they are tankier, deadlier and more mobile than all other classes aka ez mode pvp) group up in groups of 8-10 people and do exactly the same killing scrubs in 9-10 v 2-3 scenarios (or even raiding the pve-ers back in the event since apparently they could not pvp properly somewhere else XD)

So long story short, THIS is PvP right now

BUT on the other hand, except these meme pug groups like in your pic (50 men group doing that is RARE even for AD and EP that are notoriously zergy in Vivec and DC) uncapped AoE is good because a group of even half of them if they are coordinated and with good skills/setups for group play, they can take them down...

Just the other day 8 of us (healer and tank/debuff + DDs) took down 25+ people of Draco Imperia scrubs thanks to uncapped AoE

ShadowProc

Egocanemveresum wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Egocanemveresum wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Egocanemveresum wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Egocanemveresum wrote: »

But he wasn't told. It's not even clear what you're referring to.

You can read Sancts post.
Thanks

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Everyone wanted caps removed so they could deal with these groups easier.

Now the caps are gone and people are still mad at organised train groups.

It was never the aoe cap that was the issue. It was and is Purge.

Disagree, AOE caps was certainly the issue.

Now its Earthgore that's the new Issue...Basically ZOS has removed one problem and added another.

If you can hit these groups when Earthgore is down you can instant wipe most of them..Problem is they all have multiple Earthgores.

I'm sure after they nerf Earthgore ZOS will add something else stupid to make stacking keep on trucking as well.

Any experienced player that I know who run in an organized group agrees that earthgore is a plague and should have never existed. I don't think it gives an edge to organized groups more than pugs. It is a problem as a whole and need to be gone entirely, not nerfed or changed.

I completely agree with Frozn here, as does anyone in my guild I've talked to about this (and trust me, we've belabored this subject in our Discord ad nauseaum).

Earthgore should never have made it past QA, let alone to live servers.

The best response to it in its current state is to remove it and replace it with something else. Whether that be changing the procc on it to something else entirely, or just gifting a whole bunch of Dreugh Wax and Tempers to those players that own them and removing them from the game.

It's awful. It's pay to win (you have to own the DLC to get it). It's imbalanced. It's like old Malubeth on a group level, plus ground effect removal. Malubeth deserved the nerf it got, and there's no reason that Earthgore should have ever been allowed to exist in an even worse state.

It's the current crutch that large groups use to circumvent mistakes. If this was out of the game, there would be a lot more wiping going on of said destro ball groups. I have watched (and participated in) so many large groups taking coordinated mass attacks that would have wiped them pre-Earthgore only to soldier on through it. It's the reason why, when small manning on off nights, our 6-10 man groups can't take down a full raid group reliably, even when that raid group makes a major mistake. It covers for bad play, and anything that does so thoroughly is bad for game balance and especially bad for PVP balance.

So would you say that there shouldn't be a good healing Undaunted set then? Earthgore, even after the nerf next update, will still be the only decent healing set and will still be used by just every raid healer/support player because frankly every other healing focused set is complete garbage. They're either single target or ridiculously small AoE.

I'm against the concept of procc sets in general.

So my answer is -- there shouldn't be anything that mindlessly performs the function that a player should be performing, whether it be tanking, DPSing, or healing.

If your healer screws up and isn't on the ball, they don't deserve to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

If your group leader puts your group in a bad situation, they don't deserved to be bailed out, and deserve to wipe. In PVE or PVP.

That's a pretty big "shouldn't" since there are very good damage, tanking, procs in the Undaunted Sets, but no one seems to advocate as fiercely for their removal like they do with the one good healing set.

There is a difference between something like Valkyn and Earthgore.

Valkyn requires a specific offensive build (DoTs), requires the player to maintain said DoTs, and MIGHT help kill a SINGLE player - and also might proc at a totally inopportune time and thus actually be a detriment to killing said player.

Earthgore requires no thought and can be used on any general build (I use it on my DPS spec!), does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP. It is 100% totally mindless. No thought it what skills to use or how to play, automatically procs when it's needed. Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too!

I also heal. I know the frustration of limited gear variety when it comes to that role. But that's no reason to keep what is absolutely a training wheels set. Also, I feel little satisfaction using it because I don't even *use* it, it just does exactly what's needed when it's needed and to whom it's needed.

Want a good healer set? Then make it something like Twilight Remedy, which offers multiple useful bonuses that players have to work together in order to activate, which doesn;t break combat.

I'm sorry but your post is very biased and far from objective.

Earthgore procs very often when it's not needed, for example after jumping off a wall, on a random npc in your healing springs, on a nb that spams Spell Sym to get magicka back and so on. It's also fairly easy to do a first push against a group to proc their earthgores.

Also it does not automatically proc but requires you to actually heal someone. This might not seem like a big factor, however the ONLY time you need EG is when you are negated. This means that you have to either rely on your Resilent passive to trigger before you die to VD or to proactively apply HoTs like Rapid Regen and hope that those will proc EG.

Moreover it removes only 1 ground effect, so in a group vs group fight where both sides will have countless ground effects, removing 1 random one is not very reliable.

Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed.

For someone accusing Joy of bias, you have some strong magica bias in your brain. Your final sentence there is clearly locked into the idea of magica DPS. Perhaps there are DPS options beyond a NB spamming sap?

Beyond that, Earthgore was clearly an overperforming set. This set negates negates. It has a cooldown period shorter than most offensive ultimate build times (including negate). It healed a ridiculous amount over a ridiculously short period of time. It drastically outperformed any other monster set for group play and it wasn't even close.

I'm glad to see ZoS finally working to whittle away at the cancer that is earthgore. A bigger crutch set never existed in this game.

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something.

Crutchgore needs to go.

I do not want to win fights become some automated tool guaranteed a win. I want to win because I was better, and kicked their tail ends.

Instead everyone has to have multiple copies of it, because PVP has been and always will be an arms race.

The day I deconstruct mine for mats because it's useless is the day I'll be a happy man.

It is the dumb thing. It's a super cheesy set and I know Zheg would rather not use it. But you can't not use it. So you just work it in the comp and wait for it to go away.

Yeah. I understand.

It's interesting to note that it seems PC / EU hasn't started working multiple stamdeeps into their meta. The constant vigors + earthgores what keep the heals rolling even through (and sometimes eating) a negate.

I might rebuild my stamheals Warden with the coming patch even (he's kinda fun with guards, heavy armor, and constant treespam), and will only improve with additional ult gen that Wardens are getting.

It's interesting that you think EU hasn't had stam warden healers or stam wearing EG.
Sanct is correct in his assessment of joys post.

Equally we come to an interesting recurrent theme of supposedly having to do something vs doing what you think is correct.

How is Sanct correct? He's apparently never heard of stamina dps... which perfectly matches up with his bias towards magica-based groups. And yet he want's to call Joy biased? lel

Agrippa, you may need to edit your line here:

And this is one of the rare things you are going to see multiple members of PC/NA's top end PVP guilds all agreeing on something. Crutchgore needs to go.

The set indeed has fans.

Joy is referencing incorrect information and incorrectly referring to the sets usage in group play.
You can reread his(sancts) post for more info.

I agree with youn on the hating EG though.
The thing I hate most about EG is all the crying about the set.

I don't see any incorrect information in Joy's post. Sanct didn't even point any out, just called him biased and not objective while proceeding to completely forget stam dps are a thing because he doesn't run them....

And eh, what can I say. It's a set worth wailing about. Like, the second it dropped on PTS it was obvious. Players who hadn't played the game in a year saw it and laughed. It was obviously, stupidly overpowered. And ZoS did nothing. They launched it as is. And it became cancer. It went for months without ZoS even touching it. I think I'll forgive people for being loud about their dislike of it, ZoS hasn't left them other options.

Incorrect - does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed

*doesn't require grouping doesn't always proc when needed or where it is needed.

Incorrect - Oh, it removes enemy ultimates too
EG only removes 1 effect which may or may not be an ultimate (singular)

And if we are talking about misinformation your knowledge of ZS raids is very lacking if you think they don't have any stam dps

It's not that we think they don't have Stam Wardens, it's that we're harping on this incredibly inaccurate statement:

"Lastly running Earthgore on a DPS spec is bad as you have no reliable way to proc it when you get negated, which again is the only situation where its needed."

Vigor exists.

And ZOS only responds to the squeakiest of wheels. Which is why we scream loud, long, and hard. After, literal, months of silence by @ZOS_BrianWheeler before his sticky post and continued silence by @ZOS_Wrobel, they're not entitled to a gentle nudge and a polite 'please sir'.

I am going to vent my spleen as their paying customer, and people can not like it all they want, I'm still going to talk about what I feel makes this game worse.

It's my opinion, I may be wrong, but in this instance I definitely don't think I am.

Brian isn't responsible for combat or sets. His posts would make no difference on the subject (other than brining it up internally - which is was and has been for a long time)

I agree that EG isn't a well implemented set. But I did like it's premise having a set similar to negate to reduce over reliance on sorc was interesting. I would have preferred they change it as I suggested before.

Communication is key when it comes to customer relations. Customers will handle bad news handled tactfully way better than no news at all. We were in the 'no communication phase' for the longest time, and speaking as someone who trains others in handling customer relations, when I'm on the customer side of the fence, the correct course of action to take as a customer is 'assume the worst and prepare for something even more awful'.

idk from a software point of view if something is only affecting a small percentage of your userbase and doesnt affect the core running of the software generally its lower priority. Equally its unusual to highlight attention to it. Positive reinforcement of key messages is quite a common CM practice. Doesn't make it a good one I agree but still just making the point.

I did, thanks. There is a reliable way to proc earthgore in negate. Vigor. Or cone heal for that matter. He is technically wrong. He is anecdotally wrong by many people's account.

The discussion isn't about whether Sanct was wrong in his dps statement. Its about whether what joy posted was accurate.

Earthgore more or less procs when needed.

vs

Joy_Division wrote: »

does not require the player to do a single thing to use (except be grouped), and will ALWAYS proc exactly when needed in combat on whom it is needed and does a lot more than help heal an entire GROUP.

That's really your argument? That he used ALWAYS instead of something less absolute? It seemed obviously hyperbolic to me. @Joy_Division could confirm. The gist of what he is saying is correct. You and sanct also were not harping on the absoluteness of his statement earlier. You were arguing strongly that EG was not in fact too good or that Joy was wrong in thinking it too good. You're misrepresenting yourself, chief.

And if you're really just sweating over the usage of an absolute, you're absolutely just bring pedantic as Satiar mentioned.

Am I the only one that had to look up that word pedantic they keep throwing around? Lol

Vilestride

Lexxypwns wrote: »

TheValar85 wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

You're in a 20 group dude. What's the issue?

Have you read all of my post or just looked at the image? I said the rest of teh enemy group was not even loaded, later on around 2 misn later the whole wall was full of them, my fps were 1 and my latency was 900. even i was unable to get a screenshot from that.

About my group then, 20 peeps against aoe stackers? is that a sirius question? were you ever in that situation my friend?

I gues not becuase you would't asked that question (please dont take it personaly i have nothing against you in real life)

@Vilestride he’s right, I’m quite sure you’ve NEVER been in this situation you scrub

I am a scrub, what can I say. I even wear earthgore on a regular basis. I just love the set. I wear it when I play solo, I even wear it when I do writs.

Sanct16 wrote: »

- It's an AoE heal, even tho the area is quite small so it might be more benefitial to avoid damage by spreading, rather than stacking in the circle

wait wait? there are groups who are staying stacked just to get the most out of their earthgore heal? those poor souls.

Vilestride

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oh brother, not this again....

To be Fair, discussions on PVP and balance is just way too needy, and she keeps repeating herself. Feuding with Joy is obviously the better choice in this scenario.

Vilestride

Red suits you dude.

frozywozy

VE warriors for the rescue! Damn Solar you are the first one I see stand up to them in years. Props for that! All those VE "awesomes and "agrees" on every of their post showing internal respect and support usually makes one on the other side very stressed out and pitiful.



On the actual subject, I hate proc sets and would like all of them to be gone. But since this will never happen, I would not mind a just middle. Get ride of sets that proc "direct damage" or "direct healing". Keep sets that ad more "weapon damage / spell damage / healing increased / healing received". All other procs should be utility, snares, roots, cc, minor / major buffs, minor / major debuffs.

Sandman929

frozywozy wrote: »

VE warriors for the rescue! Damn Solar you are the first one I see stand up to them in years. Props for that! All those VE "awesomes and "agrees" on every of their post showing internal respect and support usually makes one on the other side very stressed out and pitiful.



On the actual subject, I hate proc sets and would like all of them to be gone. But since this will never happen, I would not mind a just middle. Get ride of sets that proc "direct damage" or "direct healing". Keep sets that ad more "weapon damage / spell damage / healing increased / healing received". All other procs should be utility, snares, roots, cc, minor / major buffs, minor / major debuffs.

This, and it will absolutely never happen. For me, the standard for a Undaunted proc set has always been Bloodspawn because it provides a benefit that the player has to capitalize on, it doesn't do anything to other players, friendly or enemy. But ZOS will keep making dungeons, and keep making sets that do things that kind-of/sort-of look like things the bosses in those dungeons do with very little thought to how it will be used in game (this is an assumption of very little thought based on history).
In isolation, against a single player wearing Earthgore, I don't think it's really over the top strong compared to other sets, but I don't think ZOS gave even a moments thought to what 6-7 in a group was like.
It's strong, and as Sanct said, it's best in slot for a PvP healer so of course they're going to wear it. Group support sets kind of suck too, so why wouldn't support wear it if they do any off-healing? It's heavy usage in group PvP isn't due to it being fantastically over the top awesome, it's got some shining moments and some drawbacks, it's mostly due to nothing else even being close to as good. So is it too good, or are the alternatives so bad that it seems amazing?

Dreyloch

Ixtyr wrote: »

Y'all take this *** way too seriously.

Lighten up, drink a beer, *** a broad, eat a bagel.

Yeesh.

I'm with you, I've run out of popcorn and beer myself lol.

Thogard

I like earthgore.

Without earthgore, we wouldn't be able to spot bad players.

No respectable groups on PC NA run it or use it. Only the zergs, beginners, and faction stackers.

So it's nice for me to be able to identify them so easily.

"Oh look, that player has come to terms with their mediocrity, and they've put on a set to help them compete with people more skilled than them."

Good on them, says I. Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up, so I'm glad we have earthgore proccing to let us readily identify ESO's burger flippers.

(No offense to actual burger flippers)

TheValar85

This is clearly an exploit.

Say what ever you want.

This not just about ball groups, the amount of AOE's with ultimates, making the game completly unplayable, the groups sapamming every AOE what they could, boundless stormm, with eye of storm with supression field with bats, and with frosts, and with supernovas, and god know what AOE the game have. No body would stand a chance against this, reguardless how well orgenised group all of you.

These groups know god damn well how unstable the game is, and how does it effects in cyrodiil. And tehy take Direct advanage of it, cosuing both serverside and client side sirius issues. Not just in latency but the Frames drop from 60 to 1. Do you understand that? 60 To 1. i have even no clue how in earth tehy could even magane to move together.

This is not funny at all, everybody is so god dam pissed of in Cyrodiil becaouse of this, i wouldn't be surprised if further topics will eb created by this issues. Becasue this needs to be stoped. Basicly they are not just killing the game, but not to mention it does not effect your computers as well in a positive ways. (before you come to me about my rig, my pc is 8X stronger then the recomended reqs for the game.)

And ofc teh god damn never ending loading screen. even with SSD takes a respwan with 6-and 8 minutes.

Anazasi

Wow. This entire thread is about lag created by organized groups. Isn't that a ZOS issue requiring a ZOS solution? The fact that it now has become a bash earthgore argument is simply wrong. Earthgore, not an easy set to get, was put in game as a direct counter to the burst damage that exists (DPS creep). So everyone would have been happier if the burst damage would have been nerfed? I can hear it right now everyone and I mean everyone would be on the forums crying over a general or a burst damage nerf. There is nothing wrong with earthgore when used AS IT WAS INTENDED. Instead you have entire raids stacking this set. Even @crown recommends that DPS wear it to augment groups with low numbers of healers. I have argued for the last year for balance play without OVERemphasizing the broken aspects (Magblade destro groups). But i'm the idiot for doing this. Group leaders over the past several years have argued capping organized groups at 16 @crown idea or that groups make a conscious effort to spread out over the map @frozywozy idea. But that was good advice and spewed as a mantra from 2015 to 2018 with little success. Now we all want to be all upset because there are more options and tools available for group play with specific support builds that enable the assured delivery of DPS payloads. But we still see 40+ stacked at roe, alessia, BRK, Chalman, Ash and Aswell because there's nothing else "happening" on the map. The sad part is ZOS had to remove the AOE caps because the ZERGS have gotten too big for the servers to handle and the "true" organized groups have to have some way to kill them or the servers might actually explode (the real problem: if 1 group can't kill them send 2 or 5; Attrition). You can insert the Dracarys idea on making the community better by helping players learn more about organized group play (long term solution that actually could work if the game supported Guild / faction culture.) The problem for this is the stigma/ public opinion of such groups is counter-intuitive to the conditions the game can actually handle. This of course could indicate that ZOS should add a campaign specifically for organized PVP guilds separate from the causal players campaign. In order to do this a new guild currency would have to be introduced so guilds could buy their way onto such a campaign and then lock them to that campaign in order to protect the casual players campaign. Which of course will never happen because organized groups have more fun farming AP off the casual players.

Lag is the issue and it will always be an issue as long as organized groups practice poor strategies. It's not that organized groups are bad by design, it's the intent of what they do that causes the poor conditions of PVP. I am sure that stacking players in a specific or even a general area has nothing to do with the performance this thread started out discussing. If ZOS intended for these AP farms to exist then the map would have been 3 keeps and everyone would simply choose which faction they hate more and lag them out. The intention is what decides if an action is good or bad the end result is simply the reward for screwing everyone over.

So I'm a hypocrite, well at least I'm an honest one.

It does not matter what I or anyone else thinks or even says here on this forum or anywhere else like youtube. Every player is going to do what they want, how they want and that is fine by me. I have 1 guild and 1 faction that i enjoy playing with and I refuse to let others dictate to me the conditions of my entertainment. The world is full of bad people, but in my little corner of it I have the choice to surround myself with good people so we can laugh and have fun.

TheValar85

Anazasi wrote: »

Wow. This entire thread is about lag created by organized groups. Isn't that a ZOS issue requiring a ZOS solution? The fact that it now has become a bash earthgore argument is simply wrong. Earthgore, not an easy set to get, was put in game as a direct counter to the burst damage that exists (DPS creep). So everyone would have been happier if the burst damage would have been nerfed? I can hear it right now everyone and I mean everyone would be on the forums crying over a general or a burst damage nerf. There is nothing wrong with earthgore when used AS IT WAS INTENDED. Instead you have entire raids stacking this set. Even @crown recommends that DPS wear it to augment groups with low numbers of healers. I have argued for the last year for balance play without OVERemphasizing the broken aspects (Magblade destro groups). But i'm the idiot for doing this. Group leaders over the past several years have argued capping organized groups at 16 @crown idea or that groups make a conscious effort to spread out over the map @frozywozy idea. But that was good advice and spewed as a mantra from 2015 to 2018 with little success. Now we all want to be all upset because there are more options and tools available for group play with specific support builds that enable the assured delivery of DPS payloads. But we still see 40+ stacked at roe, alessia, BRK, Chalman, Ash and Aswell because there's nothing else "happening" on the map. The sad part is ZOS had to remove the AOE caps because the ZERGS have gotten too big for the servers to handle and the "true" organized groups have to have some way to kill them or the servers might actually explode (the real problem: if 1 group can't kill them send 2 or 5; Attrition). You can insert the Dracarys idea on making the community better by helping players learn more about organized group play (long term solution that actually could work if the game supported Guild / faction culture.) The problem for this is the stigma/ public opinion of such groups is counter-intuitive to the conditions the game can actually handle. This of course could indicate that ZOS should add a campaign specifically for organized PVP guilds separate from the causal players campaign. In order to do this a new guild currency would have to be introduced so guilds could buy their way onto such a campaign and then lock them to that campaign in order to protect the casual players campaign. Which of course will never happen because organized groups have more fun farming AP off the casual players.

Lag is the issue and it will always be an issue as long as organized groups practice poor strategies. It's not that organized groups are bad by design, it's the intent of what they do that causes the poor conditions of PVP. I am sure that stacking players in a specific or even a general area has nothing to do with the performance this thread started out discussing. If ZOS intended for these AP farms to exist then the map would have been 3 keeps and everyone would simply choose which faction they hate more and lag them out. The intention is what decides if an action is good or bad the end result is simply the reward for screwing everyone over.

So I'm a hypocrite, well at least I'm an honest one.

It does not matter what I or anyone else thinks or even says here on this forum or anywhere else like youtube. Every player is going to do what they want, how they want and that is fine by me. I have 1 guild and 1 faction that i enjoy playing with and I refuse to let others dictate to me the conditions of my entertainment. The world is full of bad people, but in my little corner of it I have the choice to surround myself with good people so we can laugh and have fun.

sure i am not against havving fun trust me, i am against theis poor performances wich comes from ZOS side.

Crown

Anazasi wrote: »

I have argued for the last year for balance play without OVERemphasizing the broken aspects (Magblade destro groups). But i'm the idiot for doing this.

@Anazasi Players will do whatever allows them to win most easily, effectively, and with least effort. Groups that run near-perfect min/max optimised with players who play *for the group* rather than for their own egos will usually win over others. Unless there are limits or constraints put in-game it is unlikely that there will be any significant changes. The likelihood of all players policing and managing themselves approaches zero.

On the topic of Earthgore, I still believe it's one of the more powerful sets if it's used correctly. A group of 6-10 can easily get by with one healer if there's one or two others running it. A really good group with good cross heals doesn't even need a healer.

Sanct16 wrote: »

This thread is exactly why I don't participate in the forums much anymore.

@Sanct16 Not even going to try to read through it, but I agree in principle. I lost interest in forums a long time ago.. I only show up when someone tags me.