Counter to bleed builds?

jaws343 · March 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My Stam Sorc uses Bleeds (Dual Wield Double Axes) Since I don't want to play the Two Hander it feels clunky and slow. I get root and snare immunity from Retreating Maneuvers(2k+ Stam Regen before a pot in Heavy Armor + Dark Deal allows me to use it very liberally, and it helps those around me as an added bonus) and Draining Shot as a Burst Heal.

Dual Wield has no execute, so Bleeds are simply throwing Duel Wield users a bone...As you can only beat people with it by putting a lot of pressure on them. Also, Bleeds are the only real counter to permablocking tanks. If you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time you have to stack dots and bleeds on them.

Dual Wield lacks the burst and execute TH and Bow have (Poison Injection and Reverse Slice Respectively) So they get Bleeds instead to deal a little extra damage. Now the Two Handed Axe passive probably needs to be changed and not have a bleed since they have access to an execute in Reverse Slash, but the dual wield axe passive certainly needs to be left alone unless your going to give us vastly under represented dual wield specs an actual execute.

Pretty sure steel tornado is the dual wield execute.

Master_Kas · March 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

No efficient counterplay options.

unefficient? slot purge, and still die due to purge burning your magicka too quick.

But isn't it called efficent purge?

idk · March 2018

Karmanorway wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Cleanse for starters.

How many bleeds are in the game? I cannot think of many outside of axes, one DW skill and some set procs. What am I missing? Most DoTs are not bleeds.

Well last guy that wrecked me was, reverb bash (defile) twin blade + blood craze + hurricane

You merely proved my point. Most of what got mentioned aren’t bleeds. At most you have two bleeds going if and only off they used an axe.

Bash and hurricane arent bleeds.

Ashamray · March 2018

If you think that you will stop getting damage from bleed abuser because you use purge, I have bad news for you.

artal · March 2018

Its kind of funny to see people whining about everything. Someone wrote here if you purge bleeds they are instantly reaplied... lol
How, please explain me that. What someone that run bleed build just applies all dots by running around and looking at people?
Cmon just burst them, purge, kite, outheal, shield, cc to interrupt his flow... its not that hard. They are not unkillable, so pressure them, put them on defensive
I wonder how do you counter burst builds...hmmmm....probably crying about those to

CatchMeTrolling · March 2018

artal wrote: »

Its kind of funny to see people whining about everything. Someone wrote here if you purge bleeds they are instantly reaplied... lol
How, please explain me that. What someone that run bleed build just applies all dots by running around and looking at people?
Cmon just burst them, purge, kite, outheal, shield, cc to interrupt his flow... its not that hard. They are not unkillable, so pressure them, put them on defensive
I wonder how do you counter burst builds...hmmmm....probably crying about those to

Well they aren't wrong, if someone purges your bleed you simply reapply it, if you're a magplar you're not kiting any bleed build for obvious reasons. And any other class I barely see running purge. So yeah I'm just going to reapply it. Albeit realistically bleeds combined with other attacks and a poor indication of notifying a person that a bleed is ticking away on them I'm sure many people don't know it until it's too late. But then again PC has add one telling you when to purge and dodge.

But I think it's more funny that you can only perceive thing's as whining and crying.

artal · March 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well they aren't wrong, if someone purges your bleed you simply reapply it, if you're a magplar you're not kiting any bleed build for obvious reasons. And any other class I barely see running purge. So yeah I'm just going to reapply it. Albeit realistically bleeds combined with other attacks and a poor indication of notifying a person that a bleed is ticking away on them I'm sure many people don't know it until it's too late. But then again PC has add one telling you when to purge and dodge.

But I think it's more funny that you can only perceive thing's as whining and crying.

Well tell me please how much time does it takes to reapply it?
Bleed builds are mostly heavy armor and rely a lot on heavy atacks, so throwing in heavy atacks, switching weapons and hitting skills will take a lot of time.
Lets say dk with 2h axe and dw, he have maybe venomous claw on back bar, so heavy into claw switch weapons, heavy into blood craze and maybe light into noxious. It will take a lot of time to do it and its not guarantee axes bleed will proc. And in that time you can be making some dmg to him so he has to cast some defensive bufs, heals etc making his combo even slower. ye instantly reapplied...

Dont get me wrong I never said bleed builds are not strong, but they deserve to be strong, just like any other build. I just dont feel they are that OP poeple are making them to be.
What bothers me is mentality of people that bleed build guarantee victory over anyone.

CatchMeTrolling · March 2018

artal wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well they aren't wrong, if someone purges your bleed you simply reapply it, if you're a magplar you're not kiting any bleed build for obvious reasons. And any other class I barely see running purge. So yeah I'm just going to reapply it. Albeit realistically bleeds combined with other attacks and a poor indication of notifying a person that a bleed is ticking away on them I'm sure many people don't know it until it's too late. But then again PC has add one telling you when to purge and dodge.

But I think it's more funny that you can only perceive thing's as whining and crying.

Well tell me please how much time does it takes to reapply it?
Bleed builds are mostly heavy armor and rely a lot on heavy atacks, so throwing in heavy atacks, switching weapons and hitting skills will take a lot of time.
Lets say dk with 2h axe and dw, he have maybe venomous claw on back bar, so heavy into claw switch weapons, heavy into blood craze and maybe light into noxious. It will take a lot of time to do it and its not guarantee axes bleed will proc. And in that time you can be making some dmg to him so he has to cast some defensive bufs, heals etc making his combo even slower. ye instantly reapplied...

Dont get me wrong I never said bleed builds are not strong, but they deserve to be strong, just like any other build. I just dont feel they are that OP poeple are making them to be.
What bothers me is mentality of people that bleed build guarantee victory over anyone.

Why do you have this impression that you have to do something elaborate to place a bleed on someone. The dw skill can be reapplied just like that. You don't have to sit there looking like you're trying to chop trees either to proc a bleed. Just about every stam build uses heavy attacks anyways, at least they should be but the part you're missing is you don't have to fully charge a heavy attack.

Bleeds aren't op but they aren't instantly countered, you can be bursty and apply bleeds as well, a good bleed build doesn't just rely on bleeds. That's why if you get a good stam sorc or stamplar on you it can get ugly quick.

Plus like I said I'm sure most are only looking at it from a CP perspective, bleed/dot high pressure builds are really strong in no cp.

BohnT · March 2018

Master_Kas wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

No efficient counterplay options.

unefficient? slot purge, and still die due to purge burning your magicka too quick.

But isn't it called efficent purge?

Well it's an efficent way to purge your magicka bar

IZZEFlameLash · March 2018

idk wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Cleanse for starters.

How many bleeds are in the game? I cannot think of many outside of axes, one DW skill and some set procs. What am I missing? Most DoTs are not bleeds.

Well last guy that wrecked me was, reverb bash (defile) twin blade + blood craze + hurricane

You merely proved my point. Most of what got mentioned aren’t bleeds. At most you have two bleeds going if and only off they used an axe.

Bash and hurricane arent bleeds.

Twin Blade and Blunt only shows up when you get bleed proc on you. So that is a bleed. Then blood craze also is bleed dot I believe. So there we go. 50% of recap being bleed.

TheBonesXXX · March 2018

Kill us before we kill you.

Waffennacht · March 2018

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Kill us before we kill you.

A good way to disrupt and counter heavily offensive builds is to have a hard CC on your backbar.
This allows you to bar swap cancel the hard CC then apply your own pressure.
This can help allow you to kill then before they kill you as our good friend here suggests.

Maulkin · March 2018

Generally speaking bleed builds apply constant pressure while being tanky. They are quite cost efficient in their damage dealing, while you expend loads of resources trying to deliver burst heals and burst damage. They are essentially good 1v1 builds.

You need to build somewhat similar to them to counter them. Troll king and/or 2 HoTs will usually counter a lot of the bleed damage and allow you to maintain your own pressure. Magic builds will need Rapid Regen and another cost efficient source of healing (Refreshing Path, Cauterise, Burning Embers, Siphoning, Extended Ritual, Power Surge etc.)

The worst are the ones that defile as well though. But defiles in general are super strong in 1v1s regardless of the type of build utilising them.

Enslaved · March 2018

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Just put the Khajiit down and you wont get scratched.

Aznox · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Generally speaking bleed builds apply constant pressure while being tanky. They are quite cost efficient in their damage dealing, while you expend loads of resources trying to deliver burst heals and burst damage. They are essentially good 1v1 builds.

You need to build somewhat similar to them to counter them. Troll king and/or 2 HoTs will usually counter a lot of the bleed damage and allow you to maintain your own pressure. Magic builds will need Rapid Regen and another cost efficient source of healing (Refreshing Path, Cauterise, Burning Embers, Siphoning, Extended Ritual, Power Surge etc.)

The worst are the ones that defile as well though. But defiles in general are super strong in 1v1s regardless of the type of build utilising them.

Spot on.

Pressure builds emerged naturally as a predator to the burst meta which was reliant on strong but low-efficiency burst damage/defense. (of course it's not only full burst or full pressure, there are infinite variations of the mix)

edit : not sure i could really call this a counter, maybe more a rising alternative that is taking some players by surprise, hence the collection of "nerf bleed" threads.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My Stam Sorc uses Bleeds (Dual Wield Double Axes) Since I don't want to play the Two Hander it feels clunky and slow. I get root and snare immunity from Retreating Maneuvers(2k+ Stam Regen before a pot in Heavy Armor + Dark Deal allows me to use it very liberally, and it helps those around me as an added bonus) and Draining Shot as a Burst Heal.

Dual Wield has no execute, so Bleeds are simply throwing Duel Wield users a bone...As you can only beat people with it by putting a lot of pressure on them. Also, Bleeds are the only real counter to permablocking tanks. If you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time you have to stack dots and bleeds on them.

Dual Wield lacks the burst and execute TH and Bow have (Poison Injection and Reverse Slice Respectively) So they get Bleeds instead to deal a little extra damage. Now the Two Handed Axe passive probably needs to be changed and not have a bleed since they have access to an execute in Reverse Slash, but the dual wield axe passive certainly needs to be left alone unless your going to give us vastly under represented dual wield specs an actual execute.

Pretty sure steel tornado is the dual wield execute.

Steel Tornado is not exactly a great execute. It just ups the damage of the base skill on targets with low health.

Steel Tornado is the BEST AOE execute in the game, its great when your in a group of players in PVP or clearing trash mobs in PVE, but its a terrible execute for a single player. It works ok against Stamblades right now because its the only execute you can't dodge, but blocking makes its damage laughable. Reverse Slice for example is a much higher damage execute then Steel Nado.

Steel Nado does have its uses in group PVP, PVE, and against builds based on dodge roll, buts its more situational then other executes. Its best used when you can hit multiple people with it as execute damage is far less then Mage's Fury, Impale, Reverse Slice, Implosion, etc when hitting a single target.

I started using it in BG's sometimes because its really good at finishing off Stamblades who can neither Cloak nor Dodge its damage when they get low on health...i just wonder how long that will last though...with 70% of the game being Nightblades, im sure they will cry on the Summerset PTS and get it nerfed just like they have every other ability that they cna't dodge or Cloak.

Aznox · March 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Steel Tornado is not exactly a great execute.

[...]

I started using it in BG's sometimes because its really good

[...]

they will cry [...] and get it nerfed

Also lets not forgot the weapon passive that gives all dual wield abilities 20% bonus damage against enemies under 25% health.
(but of course it does not really compare to reverse slice)

WrathOfInnos · March 2018

Bleeds are the counter to heavy armor, since they bypass armor mitigation. The counters are high healing, shielding or purging. Medium or light armor are best against bleeds (for higher vigor ticks and cheaper shields/heals).

Smithernest54 · March 2018

Block cast heals!

Maulkin · March 2018

Smithernest54 wrote: »

Block cast heals!

IZZEFlameLash · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Smithernest54 wrote: »

Block cast heals!

This. So much. Lol

Toc de Malsvi · March 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My Stam Sorc uses Bleeds (Dual Wield Double Axes) Since I don't want to play the Two Hander it feels clunky and slow. I get root and snare immunity from Retreating Maneuvers(2k+ Stam Regen before a pot in Heavy Armor + Dark Deal allows me to use it very liberally, and it helps those around me as an added bonus) and Draining Shot as a Burst Heal.

Dual Wield has no execute, so Bleeds are simply throwing Duel Wield users a bone...As you can only beat people with it by putting a lot of pressure on them. Also, Bleeds are the only real counter to permablocking tanks. If you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time you have to stack dots and bleeds on them.

Dual Wield lacks the burst and execute TH and Bow have (Poison Injection and Reverse Slice Respectively) So they get Bleeds instead to deal a little extra damage. Now the Two Handed Axe passive probably needs to be changed and not have a bleed since they have access to an execute in Reverse Slash, but the dual wield axe passive certainly needs to be left alone unless your going to give us vastly under represented dual wield specs an actual execute.

Pretty sure steel tornado is the dual wield execute.

Edit: already addressed by previous poster.

Savos_Saren · March 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Bleeds are the counter to heavy armor, since they bypass armor mitigation. The counters are high healing, shielding or purging. Medium or light armor are best against bleeds (for higher vigor ticks and cheaper shields/heals).

On my light armor DK, even if you're spamming Burning Embers after the enemy's initial attack with Rending Slashes- you still can't out heal all the damage. The fight usually starts with Power of the Light, Rending Slashes, and then Jabs until you succumb. Not to mention any poisons that might be applied. What's worse is if the StamPlar is running Shuffle... because then the mDK can't actually tag them for the Burning Embers heal.

Now... if there was a magicka variant of Bleed that ignored all spell penetration... then perhaps bleed defenders could have a better perspective.

Skoomah · March 2018

Outheal or outburst the bleeder. That's the counter. Bleed builds trade high burst for steady damage over time. So in response, live through the ticks, and counter with massive burst damage.

Range the bleeders down. They have to get up close to apply the bleeds.

Navoric_Envaldreth · March 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Outheal or outburst the bleeder. That's the counter. Bleed builds trade high burst for steady damage over time. So in response, live through the ticks, and counter with massive burst damage.

Range the bleeders down. They have to get up close to apply the bleeds.

The problem is when you die within 2 seconds and see 5 bleeds from 1 person dealing double your health... within 2 seconds...

Sixty5 · March 2018

Timeraider wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Outheal or outburst the bleeder. That's the counter. Bleed builds trade high burst for steady damage over time. So in response, live through the ticks, and counter with massive burst damage.

Range the bleeders down. They have to get up close to apply the bleeds.

The problem is when you die within 2 seconds and see 5 bleeds from 1 person dealing double your health... within 2 seconds...

For 5 Bleeds you are going to need: Rending Slashes, DW bleed, Cleave, 2H Bleed and then a set to proc.

Total tooltip for those bleeds for me is about 8k each, but we will ramp that to 10k for simplicity and buffs.

You are halving that for Battle Spirit, so over the entire duration of all 4 bleeds you are looking at about 20k base damage.
That damage is being dealt across about 10 seconds all up, so you are looking at maybe 6k damage every 2 seconds, with crits.

So yeah, if you have 3k HP, I can definitely see why bleeds would seem strong.

bpmachete · April 2018

The stam sorc bleed build guys say, kill us before we kill you, and I didn't see anyone mention that their Dark Deal is now uninterruptable. They already were super tough, now whenever you CC them or if they take and immovable they can Dark Deal right in your face, like a Breath of Life on PEDs and they can do it all over again. I like powerful warriors so props to them... gotta gang up on them... then they will complain noone one v ones with the uninterruptable Dark Deal beasts...

KRBMMO · April 2018

Is bleed considered a "negative effect" that is removed by a couple of 5-piece sets? I can't remember the names but there are a few out there that "remove 5 negative effects".

Ladislao · April 2018

KRBMMO wrote: »

Is bleed considered a "negative effect" that is removed by a couple of 5-piece sets? I can't remember the names but there are a few out there that "remove 5 negative effects".

It is Wyrd Tree's Blessing. And yes, it removes dots as well.

Nelson_Rebel · April 2018

Ok lets be honest here, against a proper bleed build, they will be using Defile along with their
bleed damage. Every. Time.

Purge will not ever work. it costs 7 thousand magic for the fully morphed efficient purge morph. No one in this game can sustain a DAMAGE pvp build with a 7 thousand magic cost purge skill. You will die, very quickly if you try to use this as a counter.

Most bleed builds have s&B for reverb bash (stun and defile) and use heroic slash to reduce your damage too. So not only are you going to be constantly getting bashed, defiled, and reduced damage. You have to find a way to burst them in about 30 seconds because your self healing WILL fail on any build around that time against a bleed build.

The simple answer is realisticly, you can't. If your opponent is even halfway decent, you will most likely die unless you are a stamblade with massive burst. Other than that, your best bet is to just walk away.

I hate to say it, but you cant do anything against a defile/bleed/maim build who is using damage setups and their own monster set on top of it.

Runnning your own bleed build on a stamplar hard counters, but its just using the same tactic, the big difference is having cleanse at your disposal

All you can do is hope they are just bad or walk away