Counter to bleed builds?

Casul

Just rush them and kill them with your sword

raasdal

Karmanorway wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Healing? Like, any kind of healing?

You counter bleed damage like you would counter ANY OTHER DOT damage. There is nothing special about bleeds, except they ignore resistances. So the more resistance you have, the more annoying and "hardhitting" they will be.

So how do you counter MagDK ? How do you counter any kind of damage in the game?

In this case, you cannot counter by Blocking or Mitigating with Resistances. So you can either;

Shield it (Damage Shield that is)
Purge it
Heal it

There is nothing special about bleeds at all. It is just a DoT like everything else.

You are right, its not the bleed itself thats the problem, its the stacking

So, the stacking of DoTs?

Answer is still the same. You counter by either purging the DoTs or healing through them. Do not understand why anyone would not know this.

idk

Cleanse for starters.

How many bleeds are in the game? I cannot think of many outside of axes, one DW skill and some set procs. What am I missing? Most DoTs are not bleeds.

Kuramas9tails

Just put the Khajiit down and you wont get scratched.

Karmanorway

idk wrote: »

Cleanse for starters.

How many bleeds are in the game? I cannot think of many outside of axes, one DW skill and some set procs. What am I missing? Most DoTs are not bleeds.

Well last guy that wrecked me was, reverb bash (defile) twin blade + blood craze + hurricane

Karmanorway

raasdal wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Healing? Like, any kind of healing?

You counter bleed damage like you would counter ANY OTHER DOT damage. There is nothing special about bleeds, except they ignore resistances. So the more resistance you have, the more annoying and "hardhitting" they will be.

So how do you counter MagDK ? How do you counter any kind of damage in the game?

In this case, you cannot counter by Blocking or Mitigating with Resistances. So you can either;

Shield it (Damage Shield that is)
Purge it
Heal it

There is nothing special about bleeds at all. It is just a DoT like everything else.

You are right, its not the bleed itself thats the problem, its the stacking

So, the stacking of DoTs?

Answer is still the same. You counter by either purging the DoTs or healing through them. Do not understand why anyone would not know this.

I see , so purge 1 time all your magicka is gone, bleed gets reapplied instantly right after with major defile, pop useless heal ulti which is just enough for your hp bar to move back and forth on the same spot, not working man

DemonDruaga

Make vampires imune to bleed

Qbiken

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Make vampires imune to bleed

Lore friendly, sure. But does it really sounds balanced to you to be immune to certain types of damage?

jaws343

Karmanorway wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Healing? Like, any kind of healing?

You counter bleed damage like you would counter ANY OTHER DOT damage. There is nothing special about bleeds, except they ignore resistances. So the more resistance you have, the more annoying and "hardhitting" they will be.

So how do you counter MagDK ? How do you counter any kind of damage in the game?

In this case, you cannot counter by Blocking or Mitigating with Resistances. So you can either;

Shield it (Damage Shield that is)
Purge it
Heal it

There is nothing special about bleeds at all. It is just a DoT like everything else.

You are right, its not the bleed itself thats the problem, its the stacking

So, the stacking of DoTs?

Answer is still the same. You counter by either purging the DoTs or healing through them. Do not understand why anyone would not know this.

I see , so purge 1 time all your magicka is gone, bleed gets reapplied instantly right after with major defile, pop useless heal ulti which is just enough for your hp bar to move back and forth on the same spot, not working man

Useless healing ult? Those trees will keep you alive long enough to kill your opponent. That should be your goal whenever you drop the healing ult, burst your target down and then you don't have to worry about the bleeds.

Skander

You can't counter bleed with purge. You'll die sooner or later

Peekachu99

Qbiken wrote: »

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Make vampires imune to bleed

Lore friendly, sure. But does it really sounds balanced to you to be immune to certain types of damage?

Could give them bleed resistance? A generic amount like the racial Passives.

Qbiken

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Make vampires imune to bleed

Lore friendly, sure. But does it really sounds balanced to you to be immune to certain types of damage?

Could give them bleed resistance? A generic amount like the racial Passives.

Not a bad idea, but it would make vampire a even more obvious choice for PvP than it already is. But maybe a 5-10% damage reduction against bleed-damage? Nothing to OP but still something. Vampires also have the undeath passive (not a resistance passive but still), and as far as I know it reduces the damage of bleed as well (or at least it should). So a suggestion would maybe be to slightly nerf undeath and give vampires a small bleed-resistance passive. I could get behind that.

I personally don´t think bleed-damage makes a build "god-mode". It´s good in 1v1 and when you´re in a zerg/group, but in general, most tools becomes stronger when in a group. Nothing exclusive for bleed-damage. But when you´re outnumbered a bleed build loses its strengths

Aznox

Karmanorway wrote: »

Well last guy that wrecked me was, reverb bash (defile) twin blade + blood craze + hurricane

Standard stamsorc ... NERF STAMSORCS !

You also forgot double dot poison and rearming trap ... and Werewolf at the end if that's not enough

Tan9oSuccka

Fought a WW bleed build the other night. Pretty nasty.

The bleed and defile was too much.

I love the counter suggestion of purge. What, so they can apply it instantly again? Good suggestion

Aznox

On a more serious tone, i would rewrite OP's question to :
" How to win against a pressure build "

"Healing" or "Purge" alone won't save you and you need to return pressure to your opponent.

If you let a pressure build rotate all his dots and debuffs uncontested, you will die, period.

If you return enough pressure he will have to spend resources and rotation time on defensive actions, that's the best way to reduce pressure on yourself.

Now you either need to burst him down or out-sustain him.

fred4

My first thought was magplar as well, since I play one. You don't spam Extended Ritual, but it is a viable counter along with other skills. I use Pirate Skeleton for the Major Protection proc, as well as Wizard's Riposte for another 15% less damage. It works well on that class. You could also use that cheap Templar ult that no one uses for another 15% + X less damage. That's a lot of stacked damage mitigation that is not resistances.

I only rate Purge as a group skill, even Efficient Purge. A single heavy attack -> Incap from a well-specced NB will put around 6 effects on you. Purge is futile and far too expensive in solo play, and the Betty Netch is laughable. It might be free to cast, but the opportunity cost for clearing a single effect is far too great.

A nightblade would cloak, if possible, so DOTs do no damage. Not actually sure that includes bleeds. I assume it does.

As a magden I highly recommend Living Trellis, which I assume bleeds would proc every one second. Not sure that is viable on stamden.

Vigor is always your friend. Do bleeds crit? Then crit resistance is another thing. I know proc sets don't crit, but enchants sure do, for example.

My stam DK is a healing-over-time build and includes Vigor, Forward Momentum, Troll King, and Bloodthirst, as well as getting 6% damage reduction from being a Nord. I value Forward Momentum and speed pots. When I feel too much pressure my stam DK runs and flaps her wings. It drives some people mad. A warden could do the same playstyle using Shimmering Shield, I imagine.

DOTs and bleeds alone should not kill you - not from a single opponent - nor gap closer spam. They still have to get to you for a Suprise Attack, another Incap, or the like. Things that stop them from doing that is being highly mobile via Forward Momentum, Immovable pots, Speed pots, and Escapist's Poison. Also Defensive Rune, Eternal Hunt set, or Rearming Trap. I haven't played all of that, but am thinking of the obstacles other players throw in my way.

I suppose an NB could get you with a bow proc, but that's more of a magblade thing. You do have to listen for that sound and block / roll / reflect.

Minno

fred4 wrote: »

My first thought was magplar as well, since I play one. You don't spam Extended Ritual, but it is a viable counter along with other skills. I use Pirate Skeleton for the Major Protection proc, as well as Wizard's Riposte for another 15% less damage. It works well on that class. You could also use that cheap Templar ult that no one uses for another 15% + X less damage. That's a lot of stacked damage mitigation that is not resistances.

I only rate Purge as a group skill, even Efficient Purge. A single heavy attack -> Incap from a well-specced NB will put around 6 effects on you. Purge is futile and far too expensive in solo play, and the Betty Netch is laughable. It might be free to cast, but the opportunity cost for clearing a single effect is far too great.

A nightblade would cloak, if possible, so DOTs do no damage. Not actually sure that includes bleeds. I assume it does.

As a magden I highly recommend Living Trellis, which I assume bleeds would proc every one second. Not sure that is viable on stamden.

Vigor is always your friend. Do bleeds crit? Then crit resistance is another thing. I know proc sets don't crit, but enchants sure do, for example.

My stam DK is a healing-over-time build and includes Vigor, Forward Momentum, Troll King, and Bloodthirst, as well as getting 6% damage reduction from being a Nord. I value Forward Momentum and speed pots. When I feel too much pressure my stam DK runs and flaps her wings. It drives some people mad. A warden could do the same playstyle using Shimmering Shield, I imagine.

DOTs and bleeds alone should not kill you - not from a single opponent - nor gap closer spam. They still have to get to you for a Suprise Attack, another Incap, or the like. Things that stop them from doing that is being highly mobile via Forward Momentum, Immovable pots, Speed pots, and Escapist's Poison. Also Defensive Rune, Eternal Hunt set, or Rearming Trap. I haven't played all of that, but am thinking of the obstacles other players throw in my way.

I suppose an NB could get you with a bow proc, but that's more of a magblade thing. You do have to listen for that sound and block / roll / reflect.

Pirate skele and reposte are the only answers to bleed builds if you don't have access to a strong HoT or arent a NB with cloak.

Shields, while dots counter them, help keep the bleed off you if you arent using pirate skele. But it's similar to spaming purge; youll die eventually.

RinaldoGandolphi

My Stam Sorc uses Bleeds (Dual Wield Double Axes) Since I don't want to play the Two Hander it feels clunky and slow. I get root and snare immunity from Retreating Maneuvers(2k+ Stam Regen before a pot in Heavy Armor + Dark Deal allows me to use it very liberally, and it helps those around me as an added bonus) and Draining Shot as a Burst Heal.

Dual Wield has no execute, so Bleeds are simply throwing Duel Wield users a bone...As you can only beat people with it by putting a lot of pressure on them. Also, Bleeds are the only real counter to permablocking tanks. If you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time you have to stack dots and bleeds on them.

Dual Wield lacks the burst and execute TH and Bow have (Poison Injection and Reverse Slice Respectively) So they get Bleeds instead to deal a little extra damage. Now the Two Handed Axe passive probably needs to be changed and not have a bleed since they have access to an execute in Reverse Slash, but the dual wield axe passive certainly needs to be left alone unless your going to give us vastly under represented dual wield specs an actual execute.

fred4

Riposte has found it's way into all of my mag builds, if not as the main option, then as an alternate one that I carry around. I find Pirate works well on templar and was far less impressed with it on the magden. In fact, for the magden, even Riposte feels like a tossup compared to running Shacklebreaker / Necropotence, because a 50K+ magicka build gives you 13K+ shields (Dampen), or around 16K when wearing Imperial Physique instead of Shacklebreaker.

I should say that I play almost exclusively in the CP campaigns, but I do feel that with either the templar or the magden I can withstand any single player, and if not then it's my fault for playing badly or being up against a vastly superior dueller. On warden I typically use Dampen, Healing Ward, and Living Trellis. I don't recall having issues with bleed builds; it only gets tricky when someone uses Shield Breaker. The templar counters both bleeds and Shield Breaker, and since I track debuffs on the templar I am acutely aware when I'm up against those builds.

Ragnaroek93

Bleed builds are either squishy or don't have great mobility so doing high pressure (with defile if possible) and/or kite them will help a lot. However, if they push you into the point there you can only play defensive you will lose, you can't outheal a proper bleed build.

Waffennacht

Trellis. For roughly 2k mag you'll negate over 10k worth of damage and will proc major mending.

Trellis + Shield will really minimize damage and allow you to get off of the back bar.

Betty can help as a semi purge + mediocre heal

Kiting will help elevate pressure, if you can, slot a more proactive hard CC to disrupt your opponent's offensive charges

Minno

fred4 wrote: »

Riposte has found it's way into all of my mag builds, if not as the main option, then as an alternate one that I carry around. I find Pirate works well on templar and was far less impressed with it on the magden. In fact, for the magden, even Riposte feels like a tossup compared to running Shacklebreaker / Necropotence, because a 50K+ magicka build gives you 13K+ shields (Dampen), or around 16K when wearing Imperial Physique instead of Shacklebreaker.

I should say that I play almost exclusively in the CP campaigns, but I do feel that with either the templar or the magden I can withstand any single player, and if not then it's my fault for playing badly or being up against a vastly superior dueller. On warden I typically use Dampen, Healing Ward, and Living Trellis. I don't recall having issues with bleed builds; it only gets tricky when someone uses Shield Breaker. The templar counters both bleeds and Shield Breaker, and since I track debuffs on the templar I am acutely aware when I'm up against those builds.

This is because templar synergizes with the defile in a way. The 15% debuff is first negated by our mending passive (which comfortably adds about 10% extra healing at 30% health? i forget the exact math.) And then if you add 8% quick recovery + 8% minor mending, you'll basically void the defile into oblivion.

At lower health, you'll heal more than the defile takes away. And the major protection lets you sit in sweeps/channels longer to justify letting yourself get to low health. Which then lets you use Honor the Dead in 1-2 casts instead of 5 casts with other builds. Basically is saves you the trouble of sitting on your backbar the entire fight, letting you get on the offense!

Major defile is still a pain to deal with though, but against minor defile templars are better equipped to defend against that debuff than other classes.

The_Brosteen

There's nothing you can do. Accept your fate.

supaskrub

For your Hors d'oeuvre take a portion of major and minor defile, stacked points into syphoning, bleeds stacked from 1h axe, 2h battleaxe, carve ability, sets such as Twin Sisters and then minor/major maim thrown at you for desserts then the outcome is pretty pessimistic no matter how you purge/heal you will drain resources pretty quickly and be easy to finish off...

Karmanorway

I was thinking using Orgnums scales on backbar instead of ww hide, + add more cp i hp recovery and see how it goes.

imo bleeds deserves a cooldown , or same treatment as sorcerer Shields got

Karmanorway

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Bleed builds are either squishy or don't have great mobility so doing high pressure (with defile if possible) and/or kite them will help a lot. However, if they push you into the point there you can only play defensive you will lose, you can't outheal a proper bleed build.

thats the problem, i get to the point where i can only go defensive and using LoS also

Karmanorway

Aznox wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

Well last guy that wrecked me was, reverb bash (defile) twin blade + blood craze + hurricane

Standard stamsorc ... NERF STAMSORCS !

You also forgot double dot poison and rearming trap ... and Werewolf at the end if that's not enough

This^ im not calling out for nerfs, not on classes anyways, then i would rather they give Bleed the sorc Shield treatment, or a cooldown on the bleeds.
Although, fighting NBs no problems, stamsorc however .... :S

Aznox

A few post above i explained what happens when you fight a pressure/dot/bleed build.

If you can't fight back and need to go full defense, you are already dead, you just don't know it.

A flat damage burst build may have killed you earlier in fact.

Fighting a pressure build is very different than fighting a burst build.

Against a burst build you need strong instant defensive tools (block, burst heal, shields, dodge)

Against a pressure build you need efficient defensive tools that can be maintained over time (HoTs like vigor, lingering health pots, minor maim, roots, etc..)

WeylandLabs

I told you, you all will cry ! Keep whining lmfao Bleeeeeed !


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359042/p-m-s-build-stam-sorc

CatchMeTrolling

not much you can do against someone using bleeds with a combination of other things if you get stuck on the defense, if you get stuck playing "how long can I last " you're just delaying the inevitable. Have to put them on the defense, I'm sure most people in this thread play no cp so theres a few "counters" but bleeds are on a totally different level in no cp.

Bleeds can be really nasty on my stamplar and they're really good on stam sorcs.