Counter to bleed builds?

Ragnarock41

Aznox wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

stamsorc bleed builds can delete people in literally 3 seconds. Stamblade can't even hope to achieve that sort of pressure.

You just literally lost all credibility.

Those builds use stuff like ballista(or dbos, doesnt matter really),hurricane,flurry(somehow they also hit very hard with this too) etc, not just bleeds alone.

I saw people actually melt and die before bleeds even start ticking. Stamsorcs have the best damage output, incap,leap, sub assault etc might be bursty but they are not nearly as scary as a well played stamsorc.

All being said, I don't care what you think of my credibility, I personally fought your stamsorc in both duels and cyrodiil, you are not one of those bursty ones, so stop thinking everybody runs your own build.

Sanctum74

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Stop saying that stamwarden and stamsorc bleedbuild are OP. Stamblade are the OP one according to the forumwarriors.

Nice miss-direction. That's because they are, only closely matched by StamDens.

Have you tried a bleed build on a heavy armour StamBlade with troll king? I'm guessing not. They nasty af. And they can still disengage at will, thanks to cloak+shade. With superior burst damage to that of StamSorcs.

StamSorc is basically forced to play bleed (i.e. DoT) and defile builds, because it's the only thing remotely competitive on the class with no burst damage. No Incap+Grim Focus, no Sub Assault+DBoS, no PotL+DBoS. For StamSorc, DBoS is literally the only available burst skill and that's a 125 cost ultimate on a class without Major Heroism and practically no Minor/Major buffs outside of what Weapons Skills provide. What's a StamSorc to do, if not build for Bleeds/DoTs?

StamSorc is a bit like a StamDK, with physical instead of poisons DoTs. Only with worse in-fight sustain (no Battle Roar or Helping Hands), tankiness and CCs, but with more DoT damage and more movement. Both still bottom of the stam pile due to lack of burst outside of ult and with no build variance.

StamBlade in the meantime, can play a bleed build as well as any StamSorc. But it can also play roly-poly dodge+cloak build, racking up large K/D ratios. Or sniper-ganker build. Or basically any stamina build conceivable. And still be the best at them all, or at worse second best.

you seriously say that stamblade outperforms a stamsorc bleedbuild? sometimes i wonder if ppl in theese forums actually play the game.

Your input in this thread so far has been to make a sarcastic joke about Stamblade being potentially weaker than StamSorc (lol) and one dismissive post with no further explanation. I'm quite leaning towards you not playing the game so far, more than anyone else in this thread.

Do you even have any of these builds we're talking about? Have you even tried playing a heavy StamBlade or a StamSorc bleed build? Do you even have a StamSorc? Or did you just get wrecked by a couple and jumped on the bandwagon that bleed builds are strong and somehow StamSorc is the best one?

Do you think you can make a StamSorc bleed build that can take on a skilled heavy armor Stamblade equally built for brawling? I've yet to see a StamSorc do that, but who knows you might be the first and you might be the best player in the history of ESO too. Allow me to have my doubts though.

stamsorc bleed builds can delete people in literally 3 seconds. Stamblade can't even hope to achieve that sort of pressure.

If you die in 3 seconds to a bleed build then obviously it was not the bleed that killed you. It's just not mathematically possible to die to bleeds in 3 seconds since it takes 2-3 seconds to apply the bleeds and then wait for the ticks, unless your running around with less than 5k health.

Aznox

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Those builds use stuff like ballista,hurricane,flurry(somehow they also hit very hard with this too) etc, not just bleeds alone.

I saw people actually melt and die before bleeds even start ticking. Stamsorcs have the best damage output, incap,leap, sub assault etc might be bursty but they are not nearly as scary as a well played stamsorc.

Sincere advice to you, if you want to be taken seriously in a serious discussion about complex matters, do not wander randomly from one subject to another.

We are talking about resource-efficient pressure builds (of which bleed is one of the main components), and you bring burst combos and ultimate to the discussion, which is absolutely unrelated.

Maulkin

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

stamsorc bleed builds can delete people in literally 3 seconds. Stamblade can't even hope to achieve that sort of pressure.

You just literally lost all credibility.

Those builds use stuff like ballista,hurricane,flurry(somehow they also hit very hard with this too) etc, not just bleeds alone.

I saw people actually melt and die before bleeds even start ticking.

Lol at whichever heavy armor Stamblade dies to this.

Ballista means bow. Flurry means DW. Bow+DW means no S&B, means no Major Defile through Reverb Bash. Means no Major Fracture through Puncture or Minor Maim though Heroic Slash.

Any capable heavy armor Stamblade will outheal your damage in one cloak. While their major defile from 70 cost Incap, the Fracture from Suprise Attack, the Maim from Fear/Shade and the burst from Incap+Will every 15 seconds, will put out more pressure than you hope to handle.

Good luck with that.

waitwhat

@Karmanorway
Any cleanse or "removes X harmful effects" is the best (and tbh the only) counter. This would be Purge, Extended Ritual (Templar), Blue Betty (Warden), or perhaps even a set like Wyrd Tree's Blessing.

Since bleed bypasses block and ignores physical resistance, I wouldn't rely on out healing it, because damage like that can get out of hand really quickly, particularly if the attacker is stacking bleed DoTs (i.e. Carve with a Battle Axe + Set Combo, etc.). Crucially, if you lack a cleanse, you're going to be really vulnerable to Defile, which anyone running a bleed build is most likely going to put on you, so there goes all of the healing anyway.

I run Efficient Purge on my stamblade. It is a skill that is more than worth your time to get.

Ragnarock41

Aznox wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Those builds use stuff like ballista,hurricane,flurry(somehow they also hit very hard with this too) etc, not just bleeds alone.

I saw people actually melt and die before bleeds even start ticking. Stamsorcs have the best damage output, incap,leap, sub assault etc might be bursty but they are not nearly as scary as a well played stamsorc.

Sincere advice to you, if you want to be taken seriously in a serious discussion about complex matters, do not wander randomly from one subject to another.

We are talking about resource-efficient pressure builds (of which bleed is one of the main components), and you bring burst combos and ultimate to the discussion, which is absolutely unrelated.

The very same build that deleted the person next to me did a ridicilous 11,500 blood craze in 5 hits to me.
I would say that is a pretty impressive bleed. Which is normal to expect from a probably glass cannon stamsorc.

The post is about bleeds in general. I do not need advices from you, nor do I need you to take me seriously.

in other words, ı don't give a damn about what you think of me lad.

Maulkin

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Stop saying that stamwarden and stamsorc bleedbuild are OP. Stamblade are the OP one according to the forumwarriors.

Nice miss-direction. That's because they are, only closely matched by StamDens.

Have you tried a bleed build on a heavy armour StamBlade with troll king? I'm guessing not. They nasty af. And they can still disengage at will, thanks to cloak+shade. With superior burst damage to that of StamSorcs.

StamSorc is basically forced to play bleed (i.e. DoT) and defile builds, because it's the only thing remotely competitive on the class with no burst damage. No Incap+Grim Focus, no Sub Assault+DBoS, no PotL+DBoS. For StamSorc, DBoS is literally the only available burst skill and that's a 125 cost ultimate on a class without Major Heroism and practically no Minor/Major buffs outside of what Weapons Skills provide. What's a StamSorc to do, if not build for Bleeds/DoTs?

StamSorc is a bit like a StamDK, with physical instead of poisons DoTs. Only with worse in-fight sustain (no Battle Roar or Helping Hands), tankiness and CCs, but with more DoT damage and more movement. Both still bottom of the stam pile due to lack of burst outside of ult and with no build variance.

StamBlade in the meantime, can play a bleed build as well as any StamSorc. But it can also play roly-poly dodge+cloak build, racking up large K/D ratios. Or sniper-ganker build. Or basically any stamina build conceivable. And still be the best at them all, or at worse second best.

you seriously say that stamblade outperforms a stamsorc bleedbuild? sometimes i wonder if ppl in theese forums actually play the game.

Your input in this thread so far has been to make a sarcastic joke about Stamblade being potentially weaker than StamSorc (lol) and one dismissive post with no further explanation. I'm quite leaning towards you not playing the game so far, more than anyone else in this thread.

Do you even have any of these builds we're talking about? Have you even tried playing a heavy StamBlade or a StamSorc bleed build? Do you even have a StamSorc? Or did you just get wrecked by a couple and jumped on the bandwagon that bleed builds are strong and somehow StamSorc is the best one?

Do you think you can make a StamSorc bleed build that can take on a skilled heavy armor Stamblade equally built for brawling? I've yet to see a StamSorc do that, but who knows you might be the first and you might be the best player in the history of ESO too. Allow me to have my doubts though.

stamsorc bleed builds can delete people in literally 3 seconds. Stamblade can't even hope to achieve that sort of pressure.""

Edited for people who don't get the joke

I'm pretty sure by now he was being serious and the joke wasn't actually in his post.

waitwhat

I used Master's Axes + Rending Slashes + Incap + Shadowy Disguise to take down perma-blocking DKs in Cyrodiil. Since DKs lack a class-based cleanse and the perma-blockers run a lot of sturdy instead of impen, you could really see when the "OH ***" moment hit them after I cloaked. They were fine until they weren't, but by then they usually didn't have the resources to recover.

waitwhat

@Karmanorway I haven't tested this, but Bastion of the Heartland might help you with the most common bleed in Cyrodiil: The DoT from Carve. Since Carve is an AoE, you might get the 25% reduction on the bleed DoT, but again I'm not sure.

Only the 5% 3-piece bonus of Heartland will protect you from an axe or Rending Slashes bleed though.

Ragnarock41

waitwhat wrote: »

@Karmanorway I haven't tested this, but Bastion of the Heartland might help you with the most common bleed in Cyrodiil: The DoT from Carve. Since Carve is an AoE, you might get the 25% reduction on the bleed DoT, but again I'm not sure.

Only the 5% 3-piece bonus of Heartland will protect you from an axe or Rending Slashes bleed though.

I don't think that is how it works. The direct damage portion of the carve will be reduced, but the bleed from that ability is probably gonna stay the same. Either way it is so low that it doesn't even require counterplay.

The most dangerous two bleeds are blood craze and werewolf passive bleed. The passive 2h and dw bleeds are also strong too. Meanwhile carve is more like an ''eh'' tier bleed.

BohnT

waitwhat wrote: »

@Karmanorway I haven't tested this, but Bastion of the Heartland might help you with the most common bleed in Cyrodiil: The DoT from Carve. Since Carve is an AoE, you might get the 25% reduction on the bleed DoT, but again I'm not sure.

Only the 5% 3-piece bonus of Heartland will protect you from an axe or Rending Slashes bleed though.

Dots applied to someone are always considered a ST ability. Heartland won't help you. The Problem with Bleed builds is that every spec just has a set amount of max healing and when bleed builds use defiles in their current strenght it's very easy to outdamage that healing meaning you set their life on a timer that will reach 0 at some point

Aznox

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The post is about bleeds in general. I do not need advices from you, nor do I need you to take me seriously.

You are right, i'm probably taking these discussions too seriously, my apologies.

waitwhat

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

@Karmanorway I haven't tested this, but Bastion of the Heartland might help you with the most common bleed in Cyrodiil: The DoT from Carve. Since Carve is an AoE, you might get the 25% reduction on the bleed DoT, but again I'm not sure.

Only the 5% 3-piece bonus of Heartland will protect you from an axe or Rending Slashes bleed though.

I don't think that is how it works. The direct damage portion of the carve will be reduced, but the bleed from that ability is probably gonna stay the same. Either way it is so low that it doesn't even require counterplay.

The most dangerous two bleeds are blood craze and werewolf passive bleed. The passive 2h and dw bleeds are also strong too. Meanwhile carve is more like an ''eh'' tier bleed.

Yeah I think you're right. It doesn't work that way.

Maim would be another thing to try, if one's build doesn't accommodate frequent cleansing.

Ragnarock41

waitwhat wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

@Karmanorway I haven't tested this, but Bastion of the Heartland might help you with the most common bleed in Cyrodiil: The DoT from Carve. Since Carve is an AoE, you might get the 25% reduction on the bleed DoT, but again I'm not sure.

Only the 5% 3-piece bonus of Heartland will protect you from an axe or Rending Slashes bleed though.

I don't think that is how it works. The direct damage portion of the carve will be reduced, but the bleed from that ability is probably gonna stay the same. Either way it is so low that it doesn't even require counterplay.

The most dangerous two bleeds are blood craze and werewolf passive bleed. The passive 2h and dw bleeds are also strong too. Meanwhile carve is more like an ''eh'' tier bleed.

Yeah I think you're right. It doesn't work that way.

Maim would be another thing to try, if one's build doesn't accommodate frequent cleansing.

maim does work , yes. CP also helps afaik. I have 56 points into thick skinned, yet I still get bleeds in my recap that are well above 8-10k regularly. without that CP mitigation I would be eaten alive basically. So yeah, if you want any chance at all, make sure you have some CP into thick skinned.

Subversus

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

NyassaV

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

But overall I'm not wrong. Bleeds are even hard on Magicka too sometimes. They whittle down shields very well forcing a user to burn magic and since it's physical damage Harness can't help you

Subversus

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Edit: I usually browse the forums on my phone, ergo no signature

NyassaV

Subversus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Nope. Here they are:
https://legendeso.challonge.com/r14o0nlv

The Drexl guy won so he isn't actually 6th

BohnT

Subversus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Edit: I usually browse the forums on my phone, ergo no signature

Browsing without signature really is a pain when you argue with People who have signatures like this but don't realise it:
Stamnb is dead,
Magsorc op etc.
chars: Furry Hairball - Khajiit Stamnb sniper

Subversus

BohnT wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Edit: I usually browse the forums on my phone, ergo no signature

Browsing without signature really is a pain when you argue with People who have signatures like this but don't realise it:
Stamnb is dead,
Magsorc op etc.
chars: Furry Hairball - Khajiit Stamnb sniper

It’s terrible foruming without a signature tbf. Not to mention that I’ve not been on here on my pc in ages, I don’t even know what my own signature looks like lmao

Aznox

Let me try a hasty recap :

A new "bleed" meta is (?) challenging the established "burst" meta for stam pvp.

Stamblade is as good at it as he is with a burst build
Stamsorc feels naturally good at it and is seeing a comeback in popularity
Stamwarden doesn't care because he's too busy bursting people
StamDK feels left aside
Stamplar feels left aside

Mag classes are worried about finding the right tools to fight this.

Questions :
- will the new meta overcome the old one or will they compete in a healthy manner ?
- did stamDK and stamplar tried hard enough ?
- how can we further distinguish sub-categories in this "bleed" meta ?

BohnT

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Edit: I usually browse the forums on my phone, ergo no signature

Browsing without signature really is a pain when you argue with People who have signatures like this but don't realise it:
Stamnb is dead,
Magsorc op etc.
chars: Furry Hairball - Khajiit Stamnb sniper

It’s terrible foruming without a signature tbf. Not to mention that I’ve not been on here on my pc in ages, I don’t even know what my own signature looks like lmao

@Subversuss PC EU

Subversus - AD Redguard Heavy armor Stamblade
Spank me Daddy - AD High Elf Magsorc
You touch my tralalaOverperforming - DC Breton Magblade
Malevolent - AD Argonian Magblade
Decent Player - AD Redguard StamDK
Most Triggered - AD FAT Orc Stamplar
Cherry Wine - EP Breton Magsorc - in Progress

like this

Subversus

BohnT wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Counter pressure... That's pretty much it

Let me guess you play nightblade?
All classes which struggle against bleed builds can't counter pressure them.
Things like Stamsorc with troll king can't be pressured they have enough healing to kill you in 95% of the fights noatter how hard you'll try to pressure them.

Either you 1 shot them with will+ incap and can heal up with cloak or you play a stamclass and lose to bleed + defiles.

Literally all damage to an opponent is considered counter presure no matter what class you play

I'll just assume you are a nightblade because that's the only class that can counter pressure bleed builds as they can just heal up with cloak and then try to burst with incap.
Try it on a stamdk, stamplar, stamwarden or non bleed stamsorc. It doesn't work you can't pressure the bleed build because they are one of the specs with the most pressure.

That is rather incorrect. (I detect a tad of salt but whatever)

StamDK IS a pressure class, also corrosive armor carried one of the best stamDKs I know to victory in the Legend Tournament awhile back. Leap also does more damage than incap, still stuns, and is undodgable

Stamplar is also a pressure class and if you aren't using DW/2H with bleeds then you're probably not playing it very well

StamWarden has no issue with pressure builds cuz of shrooms and shalks

With a stamsorc you just have to use dark deal at the right time, other than that you might actually be screwed

Incap is the best ult for single target nothing in this game comes close to its performance.
Saying it's blockable or dodgeable is ignorant as it's instant and can be AC'd you'd have to dodge before the incap is used to avoid it.

Leap misses far more often due to bugs and lags+ has a long travel time that can't be cancelled. It's also more expensive and doesn't provide major defile + 20% more damage taken debuff which is even more devastating with the will that'll hit after the incap.

Stamdk has much less pressure than any bleed build they also lose to them in any fight against players of the same skill level.

Bleed stamplar is a pure 1v1 spec. If you bring that thing into open world you will be stomped everytime you fight multiple targets or a magicka spec or an OW stamsorc bleed spec.

Stamwarden gets rekt by bleed builds like any other stamspec that hasn't access to cloak. They may survive longer but at the same skill level they will always lose.

Stamsorc is either bleed build with no regen or non bleed build with no regen. If the non bleed build can nuke the bleed build in the first seconds he win if not he'll lose

Stamnb is the best stamclass to fight bleed builds. They can fully heal and negate the damage with cloak and can easily burst the bleed build with incap+ will.

How dare you argue with @NyassaV ???? He’s the 11th winner of the Legend tournament, his word is law!!!






Kappa

She* FFS sake it's in the signature
I placed 6th in a magicka competition too :P

Did you play a dw magsorc? Because last I’ve heard a dw magsorc won that tournament, and unless you were also playing dw sorc, losing to one is... well I’ll leave it at that

Edit: I usually browse the forums on my phone, ergo no signature

Browsing without signature really is a pain when you argue with People who have signatures like this but don't realise it:
Stamnb is dead,
Magsorc op etc.
chars: Furry Hairball - Khajiit Stamnb sniper

It’s terrible foruming without a signature tbf. Not to mention that I’ve not been on here on my pc in ages, I don’t even know what my own signature looks like lmao

@Subversuss PC EU

Subversus - AD Redguard Heavy armor Stamblade
Spank me Daddy - AD High Elf Magsorc
You touch my tralalaOverperforming - DC Breton Magblade
Malevolent - AD Argonian Magblade
Decent Player - AD Redguard StamDK
Most Triggered - AD FAT Orc Stamplar
Cherry Wine - EP Breton Magsorc - in Progress

like this

Oh lol at least my main sorc and nb are still correct

Subversus

Aznox wrote: »

Let me try a hasty recap :

A new "bleed" meta is (?) challenging the established "burst" meta for stam pvp.

Stamblade is as good at it as he is with a burst build
Stamsorc feels naturally good at it and is seeing a comeback in popularity
Stamwarden doesn't care because he's too busy bursting people
StamDK feels left aside
Stamplar feels left aside

Mag classes are worried about finding the right tools to fight this.

Questions :
- will the new meta overcome the old one or will they compete in a healthy manner ?
- did stamDK and stamplar tried hard enough ?
- how can we further distinguish sub-categories in this "bleed" meta ?

Here’s the thing though. The new bleed stamblades aren’t “challenging the burst meta”. They have both burst (incap, merciless, surprise attack which gives fracture - very important debuff) but also crazy (emphasis on CRAZY) sustained pressure thanks to overpowered bleeds. I can’t see a -good- bleed blade losing to any other class in this game, except for maybe pet sorcs and that’s a HUGE maybe. Especially if the nb runs cloak.

If you guys don’t believe me, there are already a few examples on our server. One very good player who’s now straight up broken (dusk) and a few absolutely terrible players who are suddenly unbeatable simply because they play meta (“meta”, bleedblades have been around forever but nobody played them).

BohnT

Subversus wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Let me try a hasty recap :

A new "bleed" meta is (?) challenging the established "burst" meta for stam pvp.

Stamblade is as good at it as he is with a burst build
Stamsorc feels naturally good at it and is seeing a comeback in popularity
Stamwarden doesn't care because he's too busy bursting people
StamDK feels left aside
Stamplar feels left aside

Mag classes are worried about finding the right tools to fight this.

Questions :
- will the new meta overcome the old one or will they compete in a healthy manner ?
- did stamDK and stamplar tried hard enough ?
- how can we further distinguish sub-categories in this "bleed" meta ?

Here’s the thing though. The new bleed stamblades aren’t “challenging the burst meta”. They have both burst (incap, merciless, surprise attack which gives fracture - very important debuff) but also crazy (emphasis on CRAZY) sustained pressure thanks to overpowered bleeds. I can’t see a -good- bleed blade losing to any other class in this game, except for maybe pet sorcs and that’s a HUGE maybe. Especially if the nb runs cloak.

If you guys don’t believe me, there are already a few examples on our server. One very good player who’s now straight up broken (dusk) and a few absolutely terrible players who are suddenly unbeatable simply because they play meta (“meta”, bleedblades have been around forever but nobody played them).

Didn't bambok run a bleed stamnb for 1-2 weeks? Not sure however

Subversus

BohnT wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Let me try a hasty recap :

A new "bleed" meta is (?) challenging the established "burst" meta for stam pvp.

Stamblade is as good at it as he is with a burst build
Stamsorc feels naturally good at it and is seeing a comeback in popularity
Stamwarden doesn't care because he's too busy bursting people
StamDK feels left aside
Stamplar feels left aside

Mag classes are worried about finding the right tools to fight this.

Questions :
- will the new meta overcome the old one or will they compete in a healthy manner ?
- did stamDK and stamplar tried hard enough ?
- how can we further distinguish sub-categories in this "bleed" meta ?

Here’s the thing though. The new bleed stamblades aren’t “challenging the burst meta”. They have both burst (incap, merciless, surprise attack which gives fracture - very important debuff) but also crazy (emphasis on CRAZY) sustained pressure thanks to overpowered bleeds. I can’t see a -good- bleed blade losing to any other class in this game, except for maybe pet sorcs and that’s a HUGE maybe. Especially if the nb runs cloak.

If you guys don’t believe me, there are already a few examples on our server. One very good player who’s now straight up broken (dusk) and a few absolutely terrible players who are suddenly unbeatable simply because they play meta (“meta”, bleedblades have been around forever but nobody played them).

Didn't bambok run a bleed stamnb for 1-2 weeks? Not sure however

That’s where he started, yeah. Rav+seventh, back when literally nobody was using seventh. I think Dracane helped him theorycraft the build, since they were... friends ... back then hahahahahaha. It was quite funny too, since back then I really hated duels (and was kinda casual at ESO due to me playing another game) and he kept telling me next day when we met in class how he was wiping the floor with everyone and they were all crying fast forward a few years and now I also am crying about bleeds feelsbadman

Maulkin

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Those builds use stuff like ballista(or dbos, doesnt matter really),hurricane,flurry(somehow they also hit very hard with this too) etc, not just bleeds alone.

I saw people actually melt and die before bleeds even start ticking. Stamsorcs have the best damage output, incap,leap, sub assault etc might be bursty but they are not nearly as scary as a well played stamsorc.

What in Oblivion's name, are you even talking about? What is this best damage output, enlighten me.

Are you talking about Energized passive for 5% extra Physical Damage? Or about 8% Extra Stamina from double barring Bound Armaments? Those two buffs result in about 8-9% increased damage in total and are entirely cancelled out by Minor Berserk on Grim Focus on a Stamblade.

Any damage skill the StamSorc slots, bar Hurricane, is entirely available to the StamBlade. And the reason StamBlade doesn't use most weapon skills, is because it's got better versions of them in the class. Any bleed the StamSorc uses, the StamBlade has access to. Any buff or debuff, the same. Why would Stamblade slot Ransack or Flurry, when Surprise Attack does the job of both better?

So if it's not the passives or buffs/debuffs what is it? You think the only class DoT, Hurricane, is resulting in higher total damage and pressure over the course of a fight than an Incap every 20", a Grim Focus proc on every 5th attack, a Major Fracture on Surprise Attack?

What is it, that you think a StamSorc has that makes it better at damage than a StamBlade and why? Rationalise it for me, because all I'm reading is bollox atm.

Toast_STS

7th legion was a great counter to my bleed build before they put a cooldown on it. I'm not sure if it's much less of a counter now or people just stopped running it altogether.

Karmanorway

waitwhat wrote: »

@Karmanorway
Any cleanse or "removes X harmful effects" is the best (and tbh the only) counter. This would be Purge, Extended Ritual (Templar), Blue Betty (Warden), or perhaps even a set like Wyrd Tree's Blessing.

Since bleed bypasses block and ignores physical resistance, I wouldn't rely on out healing it, because damage like that can get out of hand really quickly, particularly if the attacker is stacking bleed DoTs (i.e. Carve with a Battle Axe + Set Combo, etc.). Crucially, if you lack a cleanse, you're going to be really vulnerable to Defile, which anyone running a bleed build is most likely going to put on you, so there goes all of the healing anyway.

I run Efficient Purge on my stamblade. It is a skill that is more than worth your time to get.

Ive tried the 2 sets u mentioned, and does help a bit , but the purge tho is too expensive for me

Nelson_Rebel

I've had no choice but to resort to using blessed meridia's armor


Since I'm a DK there is no way for me reliably get rid of Defile and bleeds applied to me at the same time. And its suicide to try and out heal a defile/bleed combo. The damage is to much and defile will ensure you cant heal effectively, ESPECIALLY if they have invested into the befoul CP tree.


Blessed Merida's as jewelry and weapons with my main 5 body damage set and Monster set, has been the only way to get relief from the bleed/defile meta. At least as a DK with no access to skills of removing it. Purge is far far to expensive with 1 cast using up almost the entire magicka bar and won't do *** agaisnt a bleed/defile build who can simply CHEAPLY recast both effects. It's unsustainable in any fight