Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics). [/quote]

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

I'm still trying to understand Iskra's Cold Cake analogy . Do people eat warm cake somewhere ?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.

Yep, totally. Can't purge anyone if you're dead 'cause you weren't paying attention to where Crown was going...

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.

Yep, totally. Can't purge anyone if you're dead 'cause you weren't paying attention to where Crown was going...

If your running in a group pressing one button repeatedly then your doing it all wrong. I had a great support purger build that did so much more and was almost unkillable. It took way more than 1 button to get the fullest out of it though

antihero727 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.

Yep, totally. Can't purge anyone if you're dead 'cause you weren't paying attention to where Crown was going...

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.

Yep, totally. Can't purge anyone if you're dead 'cause you weren't paying attention to where Crown was going...

If your running in a group pressing one button repeatedly then your doing it all wrong. I had a great support purger build that did so much more and was almost unkillable. It took way more than 1 button to get the fullest out of it though

I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

I was responding to a point that said good situational awareness, good intuition, and paying attention to enemy and your leader's movements are necessary to be a good player in a large group.

Hence, I chose to adapt the PVE phrase "You can't DPS if you're dead" to the situation, something applicable no matter whether you are playing a one-button purge-spammer or a solid support build. All those things are necessary to be a good support player. You can't purge/heal/support/whatever your group if you aren't paying attention and wind up dead because of it.

I really didn't expect disagreement with that, but by all means, continue to preach on your preferred way to play a support build.

In raids I main a mag support. At first you're like "crap I just spam purge," but as you grow and learn the utility on that son of a *** is insane. Buffing your team and snaring/ disrupting the other team. You also both help the healers keep your team up and help lock down the enemy for your dps. It's fun as hell if you have a good raid to take advantage of it.

Iskras wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand Iskra's Cold Cake analogy . Do people eat warm cake somewhere ?

Google translate, its pastry (in my language, 'Pastel').

Ok thank you Iskra . Warm pastry sounds much more delicious then warm cake .

People claim dedicated support builds are a skill-less cakewalk, yet I can't even begin to tell you how many people I know who are absolutely dog-*** terrible at it. The same way I've seen hundreds of terrible healers or god-awful tanks or genuine potatomancer dps players.

Yeah, the support guy might now be killing you. But he's cross-healing, CCing, stunning, rooting, purging, rapids-ing, negating/ulting, buffing and generally empowering his group to get those other good dps or healers delivered, consistently, to their target, without fail, in a way that would objectively not be possible without him. You wonder why guilds like Omni and Dracarys and Invictus and Vehemence are/were looked at and hated so much by enemy players, a large part of that has to do with the consistency of their support players that helped their groups do what very few other groups are/were capable of doing over a sustained fight.

Vincelex, Xai and Aenaire may not be killing you, but they're absolutely the backbone supporting Drac that let's them sit in Ash for an hour and farm the living *** out of DC and AD that outnumber them 3:1. I'd say the exact same thing about my peeps in Omni, and the support builds in every other guild, regardless of their reputation.

The whole pattern of public shaming and disdain directed at folks playing support roles or just builds designed to synergize and help their groups (ie. any "group build") is honestly a huge problem in my eyes. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a support role. It's necessary and with the crazy amount of incoming damage and CC when you're fighting outnumbered, it can also be extremely stressful and challenging, but also very rewarding when you're able to pull out a win. And I say that as someone who has played both the high-powered DPS roles as well as dedicated stamina and magicka support builds over the years. Honestly, I find "rapids-monkeying", as some would call it, more difficult than bombblading. Regardless, though, my point: ridiculing anyone because of the role they choose to play is just a *** thing to do.

But then, I'm also someone who's never really understood the culture of hate-telling in general. So. There's that.

Ixtyr wrote: »

People claim dedicated support builds are a skill-less cakewalk, yet I can't even begin to tell you how many people I know who are absolutely dog-*** terrible at it. The same way I've seen hundreds of terrible healers or god-awful tanks or genuine potatomancer dps players.

Yeah, the support guy might now be killing you. But he's cross-healing, CCing, stunning, rooting, purging, rapids-ing, negating/ulting, buffing and generally empowering his group to get those other good dps or healers delivered, consistently, to their target, without fail, in a way that would objectively not be possible without him. You wonder why guilds like Omni and Dracarys and Invictus and Vehemence are/were looked at and hated so much by enemy players, a large part of that has to do with the consistency of their support players that helped their groups do what very few other groups are/were capable of doing over a sustained fight.

Vincelex, Xai and Aenaire may not be killing you, but they're absolutely the backbone supporting Drac that let's them sit in Ash for an hour and farm the living *** out of DC and AD that outnumber them 3:1. I'd say the exact same thing about my peeps in Omni, and the support builds in every other guild, regardless of their reputation.

The whole pattern of public shaming and disdain directed at folks playing support roles or just builds designed to synergize and help their groups (ie. any "group build") is honestly a huge problem in my eyes. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a support role. It's necessary and with the crazy amount of incoming damage and CC when you're fighting outnumbered, it can also be extremely stressful and challenging, but also very rewarding when you're able to pull out a win. And I say that as someone who has played both the high-powered DPS roles as well as dedicated stamina and magicka support builds over the years. Honestly, I find "rapids-monkeying", as some would call it, more difficult than bombblading. Regardless, though, my point: ridiculing anyone because of the role they choose to play is just a *** thing to do.

But then, I'm also someone who's never really understood the culture of hate-telling in general. So. There's that.

This game has funny disdain for group plays tbh. Never have I seen this much disdain for group plays of any kind than in this game at all levels. Kill 1 person with 3-6 men and then 3-6 end up getting killed by group larger than that is somehow more disdainful than them overwhelming 1 person for example.

usmcjdking wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

People claim dedicated support builds are a skill-less cakewalk, yet I can't even begin to tell you how many people I know who are absolutely dog-*** terrible at it. The same way I've seen hundreds of terrible healers or god-awful tanks or genuine potatomancer dps players.

Yeah, the support guy might now be killing you. But he's cross-healing, CCing, stunning, rooting, purging, rapids-ing, negating/ulting, buffing and generally empowering his group to get those other good dps or healers delivered, consistently, to their target, without fail, in a way that would objectively not be possible without him. You wonder why guilds like Omni and Dracarys and Invictus and Vehemence are/were looked at and hated so much by enemy players, a large part of that has to do with the consistency of their support players that helped their groups do what very few other groups are/were capable of doing over a sustained fight.

Vincelex, Xai and Aenaire may not be killing you, but they're absolutely the backbone supporting Drac that let's them sit in Ash for an hour and farm the living *** out of DC and AD that outnumber them 3:1. I'd say the exact same thing about my peeps in Omni, and the support builds in every other guild, regardless of their reputation.

The whole pattern of public shaming and disdain directed at folks playing support roles or just builds designed to synergize and help their groups (ie. any "group build") is honestly a huge problem in my eyes. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a support role. It's necessary and with the crazy amount of incoming damage and CC when you're fighting outnumbered, it can also be extremely stressful and challenging, but also very rewarding when you're able to pull out a win. And I say that as someone who has played both the high-powered DPS roles as well as dedicated stamina and magicka support builds over the years. Honestly, I find "rapids-monkeying", as some would call it, more difficult than bombblading. Regardless, though, my point: ridiculing anyone because of the role they choose to play is just a *** thing to do.

But then, I'm also someone who's never really understood the culture of hate-telling in general. So. There's that.

This game has funny disdain for group plays tbh. Never have I seen this much disdain for group plays of any kind than in this game at all levels. Kill 1 person with 3-6 men and then 3-6 end up getting killed by group larger than that is somehow more disdainful than them overwhelming 1 person for example.

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised why there is a large disdain for ball groups.

a) highly inclusive.
b) nothing works.
c) farms half a faction.
d) guaranteed lag.

Most people on the receiving end of a ball group do not have a pleasant experience.

So, the same reason that most people who can't handle nightblades disdain nightblades and call for nerfs?

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Hate to say it, but not being able to escape the Drac farm is totally an L2P issue.

But as for beating them? You’ll need to be coordinated in order to do it. There ARE multiple counters to their play style, but they’re not, and shouldn’t be, easy to pull off for uncoordinated pugs.

Educate the masses on the primary targets (spoiler alert: Ixtyr already named them) and the skills they’ll need to run in order to do it. Call out where their engagements are expected to be. Make your call on where to engage. This can all be done in /yell chat. If done right, you might not wipe a group like this, but can pressure them out at the very least.

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.