(Vivec NA) This Campaign is an AD farming contest. AD has no morale.

Egocanemveresum

Ooh is this the part of the thread where the third iteration of haxus engages in internet ego battles with people who don't agree with them?

I have come prepared with popcorn. Commence!

Rohamad_Ali

Glad I decided to return the last couple weeks and watch AD get back from a very super close campaign . Real edge of my seat stuff with the score board . Congrats to AD for turning it back around and winning Vivec . Great campaign !

Dyride

AD deserves some credit.

chris211

HaruyukiHana wrote: »

Well open world pvp in cyro was never meant to be competitive. We have BGs for that. Now, BGs is still pretty undeveloped right now, but making it a base game feature, having the option to select game mode, and having better matchmaking for solos and groups are all steps to the right direction. Hopefully we can host our own BG game soon.

Having said that Cyrodiil isn't competitive, it doesnt mean that it isn't challenging / unfun, since you can look for fights, form groups to fight zergs, etc.

bg's is complete trash

Ixtyr

PenguinInACan wrote: »

They all share members, and they all have (at one point or another) had members playing on opposing faction PvP guilds.

To be clear, and assuming you're referencing Omni in this group of "1-3 guilds", I have one member in my guild that runs with Invictus. The entirety of my remaining roster does not run regularly with IVS or Drac (though 1-2 of us have popped into IVS to hang out once or twice here and there when bored).

Roster sharing absolutely is a thing, yes, but it's really less prevalent than some like to think. Even between Drac and IVS, the amount of legitimate, regular overlap boils down to only a couple people, really.

We generally tend to overlap more with less-hardcore guilds than with each other, all else equal.

As for playing other factions...sure, that happens. Most of us have rerolled at some point out of bored on or to play with friends elsewhere. When you've logged thousands of hours in the game over the years, sometimes a change of scenery is warranted.

Agrippa_Invisus

Ixtyr wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

They all share members, and they all have (at one point or another) had members playing on opposing faction PvP guilds.

To be clear, and assuming you're referencing Omni in this group of "1-3 guilds", I have one member in my guild that runs with Invictus. The entirety of my remaining roster does not run regularly with IVS or Drac (though 1-2 of us have popped into IVS to hang out once or twice here and there when bored).

Roster sharing absolutely is a thing, yes, but it's really less prevalent than some like to think. Even between Drac and IVS, the amount of legitimate, regular overlap boils down to only a couple people, really.

We generally tend to overlap more with less-hardcore guilds than with each other, all else equal.

As for playing other factions...sure, that happens. Most of us have rerolled at some point out of bored on or to play with friends elsewhere. When you've logged thousands of hours in the game over the years, sometimes a change of scenery is warranted.

To follow up on what Ixtyr is saying here --

When it comes to off-night PVP (the nights there aren't formal guild raids), most of us will play with anyone who wants to work for our faction and has a reasonable sense of humor. Raids nights are, for most guilds, guild exclusive events. The nights when our pre-built meta groups should be running at full strength, and with well tuned proficiency.

The size of the PVP community of this game has reached a point where a) almost all of us know each other (pretty well by now), and b) you can't reasonably exclude folks as then there'd be no one to play with.

By and large most of the long term PVP community don't dislike each other, and there are a few folks that, even though they play for the other teams mostly, we adore them because they're legitimately good peoples. They just picked an uglier color at character creation.

Ixtyr, for instance, is good people. He's done good work helping other factions without trumpeting it up and down this forums. Humility + Skill = Respect, and his opponents give that to him because he's earned it.

If he happens to dust off his EP and play it one day, I'm sure as hell not going to begrudge someone like that a group slot.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.

I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.
When we are playing PVP we are looking for one thing, challenging situations. It doesn’t matter to us whether that situation will provide 100k AP or 0 AP. If we can be challenged in a fight and try and prevail then that is enjoyable for us. The most challenging and fun situation for us to be fighting in is where one or more enemy groups are against us. We look for these fights away from our faction because we want to only rely on our own group for support.
There have been amazing fights near Nikel dolmen, fights on bridges, warden hills etc that net almost 0 AP (because once you kill a group and they respawn they are worth nothing). Equally going into a high intensity keep where AD and DC groups are fighting and winning a 70k tick is also a lot of fun too. AP is merely a byproduct of our fights, it’s a rough measure of how we are doing that night sure but it’s more important to us that we find some groups to fight against and have a challenging situation then always being on 100k+ per hr.
Now onto objective pushing and pug farming. A lot of what we do combines pushing objectives with ‘setup times’. For example if we can create a scenario where enemies want to come fight us then its only of benefit because it means that we don’t have to hunt for groups and people to fight. The situation @Satiar mentioned about why VE reverted to frontline fights with the pugs for us would be considered a failure to read the map and create the environment we want to play in. If we fight at a keep and only pugs show up we would likely also consider it a failure because we aren’t challenged in the way that we want to be.

Also its wrong to say that "guilds" avoid farms because very regularly we are farming keeps vs other organised groups and their own pugs. I can understand that it might be a problem for other guilds that they only really meet pugs in keeps like Arrius but Dracarys very rarely experiences this.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.

I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).
This being said there have been a number of groups who recognised that actually attending and fighting each other in a positive and friendly manor helps improve both participating guilds and foster greater community.
I would gladly invite TM and any other guild which is yet to experience community run GvGs to consider participating regardless of perfect compositions. I often find it hard to believe that guilds which often run full raids find it hard to make a 12v12 or 16v16 comp especially for what ‘should be’ a fun and different event to freshen up gameplay. I’ll contact you in game and maybe we can talk about the next events.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.

I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.
Certainly your composition and numbers informs what you can likely expect from your group but that doesn’t stop us trying to push our expectations. “get as much AP as possible” very rarely crosses our minds when we are setting goals for a night. Instead we look for group fights in challenging situations to push ourselves and improve. Additionally we also sometimes have a goal of creating a fight in certain area to make use of new terrain locations for the pure enjoyment of finding something fresh about the game. Our main criteria is “where are the enemy factions fighting”, “where are enemy groups” and “where can we attract many enemies and challenge ourselves”

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."

Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.

Iskras

- just to register, i like fight against dracaris. Its a challenge.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.

I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.
When we are playing PVP we are looking for one thing, challenging situations. It doesn’t matter to us whether that situation will provide 100k AP or 0 AP. If we can be challenged in a fight and try and prevail then that is enjoyable for us. The most challenging and fun situation for us to be fighting in is where one or more enemy groups are against us. We look for these fights away from our faction because we want to only rely on our own group for support.
There have been amazing fights near Nikel dolmen, fights on bridges, warden hills etc that net almost 0 AP (because once you kill a group and they respawn they are worth nothing). Equally going into a high intensity keep where AD and DC groups are fighting and winning a 70k tick is also a lot of fun too. AP is merely a byproduct of our fights, it’s a rough measure of how we are doing that night sure but it’s more important to us that we find some groups to fight against and have a challenging situation then always being on 100k+ per hr.
Now onto objective pushing and pug farming. A lot of what we do combines pushing objectives with ‘setup times’. For example if we can create a scenario where enemies want to come fight us then its only of benefit because it means that we don’t have to hunt for groups and people to fight. The situation @Satiar mentioned about why VE reverted to frontline fights with the pugs for us would be considered a failure to read the map and create the environment we want to play in. If we fight at a keep and only pugs show up we would likely also consider it a failure because we aren’t challenged in the way that we want to be.

Also its wrong to say that "guilds" avoid farms because very regularly we are farming keeps vs other organised groups and their own pugs. I can understand that it might be a problem for other guilds that they only really meet pugs in keeps like Arrius but Dracarys very rarely experiences this.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.

I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).
This being said there have been a number of groups who recognised that actually attending and fighting each other in a positive and friendly manor helps improve both participating guilds and foster greater community.
I would gladly invite TM and any other guild which is yet to experience community run GvGs to consider participating regardless of perfect compositions. I often find it hard to believe that guilds which often run full raids find it hard to make a 12v12 or 16v16 comp especially for what ‘should be’ a fun and different event to freshen up gameplay. I’ll contact you in game and maybe we can talk about the next events.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.

I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.
Certainly your composition and numbers informs what you can likely expect from your group but that doesn’t stop us trying to push our expectations. “get as much AP as possible” very rarely crosses our minds when we are setting goals for a night. Instead we look for group fights in challenging situations to push ourselves and improve. Additionally we also sometimes have a goal of creating a fight in certain area to make use of new terrain locations for the pure enjoyment of finding something fresh about the game. Our main criteria is “where are the enemy factions fighting”, “where are enemy groups” and “where can we attract many enemies and challenge ourselves”

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."

Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.

Which guilds run full raids often?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.

I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.
When we are playing PVP we are looking for one thing, challenging situations. It doesn’t matter to us whether that situation will provide 100k AP or 0 AP. If we can be challenged in a fight and try and prevail then that is enjoyable for us. The most challenging and fun situation for us to be fighting in is where one or more enemy groups are against us. We look for these fights away from our faction because we want to only rely on our own group for support.
There have been amazing fights near Nikel dolmen, fights on bridges, warden hills etc that net almost 0 AP (because once you kill a group and they respawn they are worth nothing). Equally going into a high intensity keep where AD and DC groups are fighting and winning a 70k tick is also a lot of fun too. AP is merely a byproduct of our fights, it’s a rough measure of how we are doing that night sure but it’s more important to us that we find some groups to fight against and have a challenging situation then always being on 100k+ per hr.
Now onto objective pushing and pug farming. A lot of what we do combines pushing objectives with ‘setup times’. For example if we can create a scenario where enemies want to come fight us then its only of benefit because it means that we don’t have to hunt for groups and people to fight. The situation @Satiar mentioned about why VE reverted to frontline fights with the pugs for us would be considered a failure to read the map and create the environment we want to play in. If we fight at a keep and only pugs show up we would likely also consider it a failure because we aren’t challenged in the way that we want to be.

Also its wrong to say that "guilds" avoid farms because very regularly we are farming keeps vs other organised groups and their own pugs. I can understand that it might be a problem for other guilds that they only really meet pugs in keeps like Arrius but Dracarys very rarely experiences this.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.

I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).
This being said there have been a number of groups who recognised that actually attending and fighting each other in a positive and friendly manor helps improve both participating guilds and foster greater community.
I would gladly invite TM and any other guild which is yet to experience community run GvGs to consider participating regardless of perfect compositions. I often find it hard to believe that guilds which often run full raids find it hard to make a 12v12 or 16v16 comp especially for what ‘should be’ a fun and different event to freshen up gameplay. I’ll contact you in game and maybe we can talk about the next events.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.

I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.
Certainly your composition and numbers informs what you can likely expect from your group but that doesn’t stop us trying to push our expectations. “get as much AP as possible” very rarely crosses our minds when we are setting goals for a night. Instead we look for group fights in challenging situations to push ourselves and improve. Additionally we also sometimes have a goal of creating a fight in certain area to make use of new terrain locations for the pure enjoyment of finding something fresh about the game. Our main criteria is “where are the enemy factions fighting”, “where are enemy groups” and “where can we attract many enemies and challenge ourselves”

PenguinInACan wrote: »

The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."

Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.

Which guilds run full raids often?

A little sad that that's the only comment but nevertheless I'll respond to it.
I see Fantasia, Omni, DIG, DK, Ruin, Iron Legion, Guardians of Daggerfall, Legions of Mordo in groups in the 20's. A lot of those groups also do run lower numbers too some more often then others.
Regarding TM i only really see you guys around within these groups or the pugs I don't normally see you guys on your own to accurately judge your numbers (recently - we have fought separately in the past). I think you are normally like 12-18 ish when I see you inside the other AD?

Of the guilds I mentioned I've seen guardians, iron legion Omni and Fantasia away from their factions. The rest not so much. (Bare in mind that I don't have much vision of EP side actions aside from seeing where the frontline is and where action on the map is)

No insult intended just my observations during the times and areas I play.

pzschrek

I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.

Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

pzschrek wrote: »

I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.

Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.

I wasn't aware there is a measuring contest. Purely a difference of group objectives. I don't agree with the definitions put forth as either "pushing frontline objectives or farming pugs" because our experience on NA (and my experience of participating in other guild raids on EU) greatly differs as I explained above.

Agrippa_Invisus

pzschrek wrote: »

I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.

Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.

Lemme tell ya, those of us who run support roles (not even heals, just pure support) don't get any flashy numbers to show off, don't get any giant kill streaks or hosts of killing blows.

It takes a lot of stuffing one's own ego into a box to handle it for long stretches of a time, and it's why it's hard to find folks willing to do it. Everyone wants to be the guy who kills everybody, or keeps everyone alive, or is an impossible to kill rock. No one wants to be the guy that makes it so everyone else can do those things while not being able to do any of those things themself.

... literally don't even have an attack on their bars sometimes...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

pzschrek wrote: »

I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.

Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.

Lemme tell ya, those of us who run support roles (not even heals, just pure support) don't get any flashy numbers to show off, don't get any giant kill streaks or hosts of killing blows.

It takes a lot of stuffing one's own ego into a box to handle it for long stretches of a time, and it's why it's hard to find folks willing to do it. Everyone wants to be the guy who kills everybody, or keeps everyone alive, or is an impossible to kill rock. No one wants to be the guy that makes it so everyone else can do those things while not being able to do any of those things themself.

... literally don't even have an attack on their bars sometimes...

The glory when you kill someone 1v1 with light attacks root and negate on a sorc though... best feeling ever XD

pzschrek

I agree @Agrippa_Invisus. In raid groups I exclusively run support roles and I really love it actually. Nobody else sees what you do but it's amazing. It's definitely it's own reward and there's only a small handful of us who feel this way. Of all the people I know in this game, I think I know about 6 who mainly play mag support sorcs in PVP. It's impossible to understate the utility of that class/build to an organized group.

This is the only "actiony" game I play, man. I mostly play Paradox games and deep strategy games like that, which is kind of why I fell in love with Cyro. The huge map! The strategy! The dynamic opposition! The fact that it is obviously built for large, synergized groups of players working as a team that is more than the sum of its parts!

I find it really disappointing that most of the community really wants groups to actually just be the sum of their parts, which is boring as hell to me and if that's what the game turns into someday i'll be done with it. But I also am keenly aware that there are maybe 80 players in the entire community who want to play this PVP as it was clearly designed, so that day will probably come sooner or later.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO I actually did not have you in mind with that specific measuring comment, but that wasn't clear of course. My apologies.

Agrippa_Invisus

pzschrek wrote: »

This is the only "actiony" game I play, man. I mostly play Paradox games and deep strategy games like that, which is kind of why I fell in love with Cyro. The huge map! The strategy! The dynamic opposition! The fact that it is obviously built for large, synergized groups of players working as a team that is more than the sum of its parts!

Paradox games are great. I love EU IV and HOI IV. Still haven't successfully retaken the Med as Byzantium in 1444 yet. That is /hard/.

pzschrek wrote: »

I find it really disappointing that most of the community really wants groups to actually just be the sum of their parts, which is boring as hell to me and if that's what the game turns into someday i'll be done with it. But I also am keenly aware that there are maybe 80 players in the entire community who want to play this PVP as it was clearly designed, so that day will probably come sooner or later.

There's a lot of players that don't even want to be the sum of parts, but instead just want to be parts.

I've never been able to grasp why there's such a big solo pvp community in this game.

pzschrek

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Paradox games are great. I love EU IV and HOI IV. Still haven't successfully retaken the Med as Byzantium in 1444 yet. That is /hard/.

Good on you for trying. I'm not a masochist. The most I did was restore the Roman empire from the Komnenian restoration bookmark in CK2.

In the new HOI4 expansion you can play as Greece and restore the Byzantine empire. In my own head I've compared theorycrafting group comps to theorycrafting division templates. XD

The community that cross-plays paradox games is larger than I thought. I work with tons of gamers (they got me into ESO) but nobody I've ever known IRL plays paradox games. I've met quite a few in ESO PVP and all but one was into group play, which I suppose makes sense. @kpittsniperb14_ESO plays them often as well.

carljokl

I find an irony in this thread that the PS4 / NA Vivec campaign has been dominated by Aldmeri Dominion for quite some time.

IxSTALKERxI

carljokl wrote: »

I find an irony in this thread that the PS4 / NA Vivec campaign has been dominated by Aldmeri Dominion for quite some time.

A venatus officer got a character copy on PS4 launch and solo'd the entire server there so that probably would of helped the AD cause for a bit haha.

chris211

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

pzschrek wrote: »

I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.

Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.

Lemme tell ya, those of us who run support roles (not even heals, just pure support) don't get any flashy numbers to show off, don't get any giant kill streaks or hosts of killing blows.

It takes a lot of stuffing one's own ego into a box to handle it for long stretches of a time, and it's why it's hard to find folks willing to do it. Everyone wants to be the guy who kills everybody, or keeps everyone alive, or is an impossible to kill rock. No one wants to be the guy that makes it so everyone else can do those things while not being able to do any of those things themself.

... literally don't even have an attack on their bars sometimes...

when i play pvp i do nothing but heal and buff the group i'm in and i enjoy it to the fullest

TheValar85

AD hase no Moral? on N/A? aww poor you (i will be a bit hars now so you have been warned)

Come to PC/EU and see how disgusting DC and EP are in Shor, in Sotha Sil In Kyne, and in Vivec. Those are definetly dosent have "Morals".

Adn you say double teaming against one fraction is a moraly right game paly in AVA? no sir. thats what i call SAHDE sir. dont victimise your self, while you team up with the oposite fraction to fight against one. That kind of action DOES NOT HAVE MORAL.

barshemm

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I've never been able to grasp why there's such a big solo pvp community in this game.

Because it's fun?

Solo I can cap an enemy resource or take back one of ours and account for individual points at eval. Solo or small group I can respond to others doing the same quickly.

I can get in 1vX and 1v1 situations.

I can expirement with builds and tactics.

When I do zerg surf or help with large pushes I can do anything from dps, hit the edge and pull to distract (literally on my Warden which is real fun) or toss in a defile/bleed set and help with a push.

Personally I find the small scale pvp just more fun.

The big ball zerg guilds have a mutual respect for each other, a lot of us solo players have the same for each other.

How the point system works, imho it favors the small scale. Focusing on multiple objectives at eval is more efficient than grouping a bunch of players in one spot.

BTW not criticizing large group play in this post. I get people enjoy it and it is a challenging way to play.

*Please excuse typos, typed on phone.

ShadowProc

Vilestride wrote: »

Yeah, no one is defending PUG farming. All I am saying is the hardest fights are all those things you said.....without your faction at your back.

Not being at the front line with PUG and allied guild support doesn't default to meaning you're off farming PUGs.

In fact, you know what, let's go with front line, you're right, front line is the most challenging fight. Just not your own. Nikel for example is often an amazing fight due to the possibility of being met with guilds and huge forces of both opposing factions with next to 0 probability of your own faction aiding you. So yes, the 2 opposing factions front-line is where the best fights are at, agreed.

also...on the down low, the best farms aren't just about not dying, they're actually from taking long contested objectives :P

Because when you go deep into AD you know you will get pugs and not good guilds to fight. A organized raid will mop the floor with 60 pugs. And you know it.

Some of the best guilds fight in the front lines against other guilds. Who do you fight south in the back keeps?

Mr_Nobody

Vilestride wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Nemesismimz wrote: »

Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)

I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.

Absolutely.

The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.

Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.

The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.

Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.

With the amount of siege, debuffs, snares and general negative effects that can be applied to player you be foolish to run a large group and not have a dedicated purge role within it. Whether or not you think it's skilful is irrelevant, any good group is going to tell you it's important. But on the topic of it's skillset:

Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.

That is the issue of cyrodiil. If your 20 man group rushes through a point and takes 0 damage and 0 cc, because of 1 spell allowing to so... ummm whatever, this wont be addressed and these trash ball groups will continue on doing what they have done for the last 3 years.

Thogard

Maybe if AD wasn’t 60% nightblades the faction would be able to win fights

Vilestride

ShadowProc wrote: »

Because when you go deep into AD you know you will get pugs and not good guilds to fight. A organized raid will mop the floor with 60 pugs. And you know it.

Some of the best guilds fight in the front lines against other guilds. Who do you fight south in the back keeps?

The problem isn't that going deep only results in mostly fighting pugs. The problem is that going anywhere these days almost exclusively results in fighting pugs. There are exceptions of course and they are the answer to your question.

During our times of play we will almost always fight Fantasia multiple times, Iron legion if we go DC. Small TM groups if we take faregyl, Omni if it's Wednesday. Any action against deep AD keeps will almost certainly result in Dom Knights showing up to, not sure if you count that as pugs or not.

Regardless, each of these guilds are their respective factions best guilds online during said times of play and we see them multiple times a night at faregyl/roe/nikel/ash/glade. So when you say going deep only results in pugs fights, unless you mean EVERYONE IN CYRODIL IS A PUG, I don't know what the *** you are talking about.

Jadokis

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Ni and TKG from DC are helping AD this season. With Omni, DK and large amount of PUG, AD is able to maintain tactical advantage against EP and DC.

If AD can’t win this campaign then I’d say there must be some real problems with AD...

Vilestride wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Because when you go deep into AD you know you will get pugs and not good guilds to fight. A organized raid will mop the floor with 60 pugs. And you know it.

Some of the best guilds fight in the front lines against other guilds. Who do you fight south in the back keeps?

The problem isn't that going deep only results in mostly fighting pugs. The problem is that going anywhere these days almost exclusively results in fighting pugs. There are exceptions of course and they are the answer to your question.

During our times of play we will almost always fight Fantasia multiple times, Iron legion if we go DC. Small TM groups if we take faregyl, Omni if it's Wednesday. Any action against deep AD keeps will almost certainly result in Dom Knights showing up to, not sure if you count that as pugs or not.

Regardless, each of these guilds are their respective factions best guilds online during said times of play and we see them multiple times a night at faregyl/roe/nikel/ash/glade. So when you say going deep only results in pugs fights, unless you mean EVERYONE IN CYRODIL IS A PUG, I don't know what the *** you are talking about.

Let's be honest here. AD is the easy target. I've watched a lot of farms at fare, too. DK, if they're on, will actively avoid going there or take 10-20 mins to just show up probably cause they don't want to run to Fare every 20mins or they're engaged somewhere else. 99% of your time is spent fighting disorganized pugs and slightly more organized for better VD procs zone pug groups. There's an easy way to get fights with other guilds - go to where they are. It doesn't even have to be on your own faction's front line (which you're not as opposed to playing in as all the posts always try to make it seem) either.

bmesi

every campaign is an ad farm fest u idiots. Hi @vortexman11 Hi @Agrippa_Invisus I miss u guys and I miss playing with ivs :c