(Vivec NA) This Campaign is an AD farming contest. AD has no morale.

Satiar

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.

AD creates the problem for themselves.

People used to do this to me all the time when I led VE. I'd go on a grand adventure to Sej, everyone sees us there and leaves. So I go to BRK and I get nothing. Meanwhile AD has pushed Ash and DC has pushed Aleswell. So I go Chalman. DC is now at Glade. I retake Aleswell and behind me Sej, BRK and Chalman have all been retaken. Group is frustrated and I'm bored, try to get a few fights going than log off.

That happened to me ALOT, to the point where I basically stopped pushing VE to far-off places because I just didn't get good fights and I knew DC couldn't hold territory behind me. This is basically what AD needs to do. Stop feeding farms. Boredom is the mindkiller.

Agrippa_Invisus

Satiar wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.

AD creates the problem for themselves.

People used to do this to me all the time when I led VE. I'd go on a grand adventure to Sej, everyone sees us there and leaves. So I go to BRK and I get nothing. Meanwhile AD has pushed Ash and DC has pushed Aleswell. So I go Chalman. DC is now at Glade. I retake Aleswell and behind me Sej, BRK and Chalman have all been retaken. Group is frustrated and I'm bored, try to get a few fights going than log off.

That happened to me ALOT, to the point where I basically stopped pushing VE to far-off places because I just didn't get good fights and I knew DC couldn't hold territory behind me. This is basically what AD needs to do. Stop feeding farms. Boredom is the mindkiller.

All us EP vets screaming at the PUGs to starve the farm helped with that a lot, too.

I learned looooong ago (*waves at Alacrity*) that when your enemy inserts themselves between you and your other enemy, just let them fight and go steal their stuff.

VaranisArano

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

usmcjdking

VaranisArano wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

Valid, but unfeasible answer. No one should have to work in a video game to have fun. Not for some altruistic hippy reason, but because fun = money well spent.

Just look at the last few posts dude. People are advocating for ignoring ball group farms, which is a latent admission that they are indeed overpowered in that the best way to combat them is to literally not PVP.

That's nonsense. I like the concept of ball groups in open world PVP and I think their existence is healthy overall. What's not healthy are a few skills/items which are absolutely ridiculous in a raid setting that allow said ball groups to overstay their welcome.

Agrippa_Invisus

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

Valid, but unfeasible answer. No one should have to work in a video game to have fun. Not for some altruistic hippy reason, but because fun = money well spent.

Just look at the last few posts dude. People are advocating for ignoring ball group farms, which is a latent admission that they are indeed overpowered in that the best way to combat them is to literally not PVP.

That's nonsense. I like the concept of ball groups in open world PVP and I think their existence is healthy overall. What's not healthy are a few skills/items which are absolutely ridiculous in a raid setting that allow said ball groups to overstay their welcome.

I disagree.

Baseball, volleyball, football, and other sports require team organization, getting gear and equipment together, and ensuring a place to play. That seems like an awful lot of work to have fun, and if it's small neighborhood scale it's going to typically be the same people playing the game as getting it put together. Games, and excelling at games, have always been about the time / practice commitment someone puts into them. The Overwatch noob is going to get smashed by the Platinum level player, and it takes a lot of effort (read: work) to change that on the noob's part -- as it should.

All things being equal, it is absolutely ok for a team or faction to lose a fight, a campaign, or whatever based on their own failings. If a team fails to organize appropriately, then they should lose. This is how you reward the work that goes into either coordinating a ball group, or a series of guilds pushing to raise their campaign score, or a four man trying to win in BGs.

As long as there is equality of access -- anyone can have the same classes, skills, etc -- then it's a fair competition as the onus to use what works best is on the losing team.

Now, there's definitely an argument against Wardens and All Races / All Alliances and soon the Psijic skill lines being stuck behind a paywall (something inherently unfair that takes something outside the game to correct -- money) in there, and if you want to attack it from that angle, I'll be right there with you. There is an awful lot of pay to win starting to be added to the game. ESO can avoid it by ungating Wardens and the AR/AA to start and likely the Psijic line too.

usmcjdking

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

Agrippa_Invisus

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

So? That many 1vXers choose the weakest of the players on the battlefield to make highlights of means very little in the grand scheme of things.

VaranisArano

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

So? That many 1vXers choose the weakest of the players on the battlefield to make highlights of means very little in the grand scheme of things.

Yep, since the videos of a 1vXer meeting an organized group of players go in the "THEY ZERGED ME!!!" section after they die in short order to players who know what to do when facing a 1vXer.

Agrippa_Invisus

VaranisArano wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

So? That many 1vXers choose the weakest of the players on the battlefield to make highlights of means very little in the grand scheme of things.

Yep, since the videos of a 1vXer meeting an organized group of players go in the "THEY ZERGED ME!!!" section after they die in short order to players who know what to do when facing a 1vXer.

I think I'm missing your point, because I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

VaranisArano

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

So? That many 1vXers choose the weakest of the players on the battlefield to make highlights of means very little in the grand scheme of things.

Yep, since the videos of a 1vXer meeting an organized group of players go in the "THEY ZERGED ME!!!" section after they die in short order to players who know what to do when facing a 1vXer.

I think I'm missing your point, because I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Sorry, it was half in response to the person you were responding to.

The vast majority of players don't belong in the vast majority of 1vXer videos or guild highlight videos.
Because 1vXers choose the weakest of the players to make highlights of.

And I agree, and add that when those 1vXers face organized players, they often complain about getting zerged instead.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.

AD creates the problem for themselves.

People used to do this to me all the time when I led VE. I'd go on a grand adventure to Sej, everyone sees us there and leaves. So I go to BRK and I get nothing. Meanwhile AD has pushed Ash and DC has pushed Aleswell. So I go Chalman. DC is now at Glade. I retake Aleswell and behind me Sej, BRK and Chalman have all been retaken. Group is frustrated and I'm bored, try to get a few fights going than log off.

That happened to me ALOT, to the point where I basically stopped pushing VE to far-off places because I just didn't get good fights and I knew DC couldn't hold territory behind me. This is basically what AD needs to do. Stop feeding farms. Boredom is the mindkiller.

tbh I've played since release and have always been able to find good fights away from our factions front line on every faction I've played both NA and EU . I don't really feel that only playing "close to own faction" pvp can be justified in this way.

AD and DC both react the same you just need to know how to 'trigger' a response to your actions. AD isn't some helpless faction. You can tell pugs to avoid us for sure but if you think that its worth losing multiple keeps for this avoidance rather than simply take a fight then that's on you.

I don't really ever want to get to the stage where all I do is zerg on the front line because I can assure you that AD will be complaining 10x more than now about us if we do that.

Agrippa_Invisus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.

AD creates the problem for themselves.

People used to do this to me all the time when I led VE. I'd go on a grand adventure to Sej, everyone sees us there and leaves. So I go to BRK and I get nothing. Meanwhile AD has pushed Ash and DC has pushed Aleswell. So I go Chalman. DC is now at Glade. I retake Aleswell and behind me Sej, BRK and Chalman have all been retaken. Group is frustrated and I'm bored, try to get a few fights going than log off.

That happened to me ALOT, to the point where I basically stopped pushing VE to far-off places because I just didn't get good fights and I knew DC couldn't hold territory behind me. This is basically what AD needs to do. Stop feeding farms. Boredom is the mindkiller.

tbh I've played since release and have always been able to find good fights away from our factions front line on every faction I've played both NA and EU . I don't really feel that only playing "close to own faction" pvp can be justified in this way.

AD and DC both react the same you just need to know how to 'trigger' a response to your actions. AD isn't some helpless faction. You can tell pugs to avoid us for sure but if you think that its worth losing multiple keeps for this avoidance rather than simply take a fight then that's on you.

I don't really ever want to get to the stage where all I do is zerg on the front line because I can assure you that AD will be complaining 10x more than now about us if we do that.

The rare times that Drac and IVS have been in the same keep have been... deeply unfair to our opponents.

Having everyone on the EP front lines is just an invitation for zerging, lag, and unfun for everyone involved.

I wish people understood why we (the EP guilds) tend to spread so much.

I think folks forget the Havoc and Hijinx days when, yes, we would merrily 100vX with our best guilds.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

Any guild highlight video?
How about several vs multiple other enemy groups of similar and larger numbers. Or perhaps its the result which makes it un-competitive?

Lets not kid ourselves, there are still plenty of guilds fighting on all sides in vivec and it can be very challenging and interesting to fight them.
Channel Link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc5xuu6btI4NZVtNx3IC2MQ
https://youtu.be/wCl4WLDzvR0
https://youtu.be/LX0aSfyO4iA
https://youtu.be/HPLmhIGGBWE
https://youtu.be/noyAdz-6rS0
https://youtu.be/KTcRC7B9y6Q

I can keep posting if you enjoy scrolling?

pzschrek

Vincelex wrote: »

AW THANKS FOR THE SHOUT-OUT

+1

Having grown into mag support, it's crazy how much you can enable your team that way. It's hard af to do it right. Plus. those sexy bombblades would kill far less if the enemy wasn't encased under a negate, then purged on the counterpush.

Stam support feels like it has fewer dimensions, but I just started to learn it so I'll give it time. But there's no question that if there was literally ONE support role that is most indispensable in a raid, it's Mr Rapids.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue.

YUUUUP. AD very much enjoys getting farmed. The other factions are much smarter about leaving ball farm groups alone unless they bring the entire faction, or at least every guild in it.

usmcjdking

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

That's relevant in a competitive game, sure.

But your argument is not going to survive impact with mine because ESO is non-competitive. Nothing separates the noob and the pro which is the hallmark of competition. Need proof? Just look at just about any guild highlight video and a vast majority of 1vX videos. The vast majority of enemy players in those highlights have no business being in a highlight video.

Any guild highlight video?
How about several vs multiple other enemy groups of similar and larger numbers. Or perhaps its the result which makes it un-competitive?

Lets not kid ourselves, there are still plenty of guilds fighting on all sides in vivec and it can be very challenging and interesting to fight them.
Channel Link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc5xuu6btI4NZVtNx3IC2MQ
https://youtu.be/wCl4WLDzvR0
https://youtu.be/LX0aSfyO4iA
https://youtu.be/HPLmhIGGBWE
https://youtu.be/noyAdz-6rS0
https://youtu.be/KTcRC7B9y6Q

I can keep posting if you enjoy scrolling?

The result isn't important in determining whether something was competetive.

There is absolutely no standardized metric of quality control for fights introduced by ZOS- that's intended by game design but by it's own right it makes the game non-competitive. By your own admission you can take a 12 man and practically go wherever you want (unless you imply that fighting in the EP zerg is functionally impossible for yourself); in a competitive environment that's simply not the case. As far as I know @Irylia has established the only competitive group play in ESO (I think EU had that 3v3) and even then that's hindered by the fact that it requires quite a bit of preplanning & entirely player driven. Even then, this still doesn't make the game competitive.

This isn't to say that an air of competition isn't there amongst the players. There most certainly is. The environment to support competition isn't, though. If there was you guys would be bathing in $$$ prize pools.

Also, don't explicitly misquote or blatantly cut out half of my statement. Words mean things and what I said is not what you decided to address.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

You obsess over one guild farming. It used to be much more common. Learn their weaknesses, you’ll be ok.

AD in general is terrible at this. Half the time Zheg goes cross map to farm, DC or EP will just leave us alone to go hit our keeps. But when Drac sets up a farm in an AD keep, half the faction will stay there abd throw bodies out at them and lose half the map. It’s sad.

It's a pug quality issue, not a singular guild farming issue. DC/EP pugs seem much more open to pug groups and pushing objectives that are not in a straight line (Chalman notwithstanding). AD pugs are also much more resilient to the consistent farming considering farming AD is 80% of what people do on the server now, so they just keep going back. DC/EP pugs tend to wipe at a farm once or maybe twice and either return with 2-3 stacked guild raids or not come back at all.

AD creates the problem for themselves.

People used to do this to me all the time when I led VE. I'd go on a grand adventure to Sej, everyone sees us there and leaves. So I go to BRK and I get nothing. Meanwhile AD has pushed Ash and DC has pushed Aleswell. So I go Chalman. DC is now at Glade. I retake Aleswell and behind me Sej, BRK and Chalman have all been retaken. Group is frustrated and I'm bored, try to get a few fights going than log off.

That happened to me ALOT, to the point where I basically stopped pushing VE to far-off places because I just didn't get good fights and I knew DC couldn't hold territory behind me. This is basically what AD needs to do. Stop feeding farms. Boredom is the mindkiller.

tbh I've played since release and have always been able to find good fights away from our factions front line on every faction I've played both NA and EU . I don't really feel that only playing "close to own faction" pvp can be justified in this way.

AD and DC both react the same you just need to know how to 'trigger' a response to your actions. AD isn't some helpless faction. You can tell pugs to avoid us for sure but if you think that its worth losing multiple keeps for this avoidance rather than simply take a fight then that's on you.

I don't really ever want to get to the stage where all I do is zerg on the front line because I can assure you that AD will be complaining 10x more than now about us if we do that.

I’m ambivalent to what the AD pugs do because it doesn’t really effect me. I don’t lead anymore so I just follow where Zheg goes. But the pattern I’ve seen in this game will never cease to amuse me. The hardest fights are front line. The farms are backline. Always has always will be this way. And yet some never cease to disparage those who chose to fight in the front.

Joy_Division

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

Valid, but unfeasible answer. No one should have to work in a video game to have fun. Not for some altruistic hippy reason, but because fun = money well spent.

Just look at the last few posts dude. People are advocating for ignoring ball group farms, which is a latent admission that they are indeed overpowered in that the best way to combat them is to literally not PVP.

That's nonsense. I like the concept of ball groups in open world PVP and I think their existence is healthy overall. What's not healthy are a few skills/items which are absolutely ridiculous in a raid setting that allow said ball groups to overstay their welcome.

I normally always agree with you.

I ignore ball group farms not because the farmers are overpowered, but it's just the sensible and correct tactical thing to do. If a ball groups retreats into a tower or baits PuGs to follow them in a choke of their choosing, it is 10000% moronic to fight them on their terms of their choosing. Screw that. That's not them being overpowered. That's them placing themselves in an advantageous position that makes them too strong to assault. Things shouldn't be balanced around stupid.

So don't be a PuG. Don't play their game. Force them to fight on more even terms. Let them be bored in that tower or behind that choke and do nothing. Eventually they'll come out and be aggressive, which is a much more even playing field. The better guilds are certainly still formidable in the open field and I do agree that things like Earthgore need to just disappear and I'd rather ZoS make changes to encourage 2 squads of 8 rather than 16 stacking in one spot, but their relative power is much less and it just takes a few kills or a few mistakes until their group cohesion breaks apart.

Vilestride

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

Valid, but unfeasible answer. No one should have to work in a video game to have fun. Not for some altruistic hippy reason, but because fun = money well spent.

Just look at the last few posts dude. People are advocating for ignoring ball group farms, which is a latent admission that they are indeed overpowered in that the best way to combat them is to literally not PVP.

That's nonsense. I like the concept of ball groups in open world PVP and I think their existence is healthy overall. What's not healthy are a few skills/items which are absolutely ridiculous in a raid setting that allow said ball groups to overstay their welcome.

I normally always agree with you.

I ignore ball group farms not because the farmers are overpowered, but it's just the sensible and correct tactical thing to do. If a ball groups retreats into a tower or baits PuGs to follow them in a choke of their choosing, it is 10000% moronic to fight them on their terms of their choosing. Screw that. That's not them being overpowered. That's them placing themselves in an advantageous position that makes them too strong to assault. Things shouldn't be balanced around stupid.

So don't be a PuG. Don't play their game. Force them to fight on more even terms. Let them be bored in that tower or behind that choke and do nothing. Eventually they'll come out and be aggressive, which is a much more even playing field. The better guilds are certainly still formidable in the open field and I do agree that things like Earthgore need to just disappear and I'd rather ZoS make changes to encourage 2 squads of 8 rather than 16 stacking in one spot, but their relative power is much less and it just takes a few kills or a few mistakes until their group cohesion breaks apart.

Agreed here.

But @Satiar , frontline fights are the hardest fights? Really?

And lastly I have to agree with umj if we are going to use the word competitive. Obviously it's not to disregard the forefront context of there simply being competition. But a truly 'competitive ' format would be far more structured than open world pvp. If we ever wanted to call this game competitive in the same context that top tier esports games are competitive we'd have to change the format to more organized GVG style. Whatever the scale is. I wouldn't refer to anything less as competitive.

Also note that difficulty doesn't auto translate to competitive either.

pzschrek

Joys right. Plus the way the game is designed, the group build synergies really take hold above the 12 mark. A conservative estimate we've noted is that with the right roles in group, the amount of *** we can take on more than doubles when you move from the 9-10 person range into the 13-14 person range.

Satiar

Vilestride wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the 1 purge spammer, its a problem when there is like 6 or more of them doing it. i think thats the problem with this game, you can take a group like draq with 16 players and pit them against like 160 pugs manning 20 coldfire ballista's shutting at them. Draq will probably kill all those poor pugs without losing a single man, situations like this happens all the time, its the reasons why so many people do cyrodiil once and quit. what hope is there for the pugs when they cant kill the purge ball when they outnumber and outgun them? Jeez ZOS, even the daedric prince Hercine states "The hare must have a genuine chance to escape the hunt(draq farm), no matter how small".

Good question. What hope is there for the disorganized masses against an organized raid with good healers and support players?

Uh, the masses could get organized?

Valid, but unfeasible answer. No one should have to work in a video game to have fun. Not for some altruistic hippy reason, but because fun = money well spent.

Just look at the last few posts dude. People are advocating for ignoring ball group farms, which is a latent admission that they are indeed overpowered in that the best way to combat them is to literally not PVP.

That's nonsense. I like the concept of ball groups in open world PVP and I think their existence is healthy overall. What's not healthy are a few skills/items which are absolutely ridiculous in a raid setting that allow said ball groups to overstay their welcome.

I normally always agree with you.

I ignore ball group farms not because the farmers are overpowered, but it's just the sensible and correct tactical thing to do. If a ball groups retreats into a tower or baits PuGs to follow them in a choke of their choosing, it is 10000% moronic to fight them on their terms of their choosing. Screw that. That's not them being overpowered. That's them placing themselves in an advantageous position that makes them too strong to assault. Things shouldn't be balanced around stupid.

So don't be a PuG. Don't play their game. Force them to fight on more even terms. Let them be bored in that tower or behind that choke and do nothing. Eventually they'll come out and be aggressive, which is a much more even playing field. The better guilds are certainly still formidable in the open field and I do agree that things like Earthgore need to just disappear and I'd rather ZoS make changes to encourage 2 squads of 8 rather than 16 stacking in one spot, but their relative power is much less and it just takes a few kills or a few mistakes until their group cohesion breaks apart.

Agreed here.

But @Satiar , frontline fights are the hardest fights? Really?

And lastly I have to agree with umj if we are going to use the word competitive. Obviously it's not to disregard the forefront context of there simply being competition. But a truly 'competitive ' format would be far more structured than open world pvp. If we ever wanted to call this game competitive in the same context that top tier esports games are competitive we'd have to change the format to more organized GVG style. Whatever the scale is. I wouldn't refer to anything less as competitive.

Also note that difficulty doesn't auto translate to competitive either.

Hardest fights I ever led or played in were frontline. Storming emp keeps raid v faction. Manoeuvring vs multiple enemy groups on the open field outside of their own keeps. Pushing back a literal faction, step by step. Breaking entrenched gate and bridge farms.

My favourite memories are of battling Nexus and GoS on the faction frontier, forcing my way inside Meth emp keeps abd fending off Haxus pushes will trying to siege, fencing with Rage and AD in the killing fields between Ash keep and ash farm.

Absolutely front line fights are hardest @Vilestride. Or if not hardest, I’ll say they present a different challenge. Farms have one objective: don’t die. Actually pushing for front line fights puts you in bad territory, often away from coveted line of sight, against endless spawn, and your victory conditions are vastly more difficult than Stay Alive.

Farming used to be that thing people did for fun and AP, when did it become the height of skill and the hardest fight around?

Rin_Senya

Daaamn...So apparently zerging front lines together with your faction pugs and other guilds in one massive blob is harder than going somewhere trying to create your own fights! I guess all these groups, 1vX and smallscale players that not zerging from one keep to another with their factions just want an easy mode game. Shame. Shame. Shame.

___________

Iskras wrote: »

Negates, caltrops, some coffee and fun. This is the way to fight against Dracaris. I try target Rin_Senya all the time, without any sucess

Oh hi there

Satiar

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Daaamn...So apparently zerging front lines together with your faction pugs and other guilds in one massive blob is harder than going somewhere trying to create your own fights! I guess all these 1vX and smallscale players that not zerging from one keep to another with their factions just want an easy-mode game. Shame. Shame. Shame.

As we all know, if you want a true test of your abilities, you go farm pugs at Nikel....

Which is fine, really. It can be really fun. But when you try to use it as a platform to look down on people from it's just silly

Vilestride

Yeah, no one is defending PUG farming. All I am saying is the hardest fights are all those things you said.....without your faction at your back.

Not being at the front line with PUG and allied guild support doesn't default to meaning you're off farming PUGs.

In fact, you know what, let's go with front line, you're right, front line is the most challenging fight. Just not your own. Nikel for example is often an amazing fight due to the possibility of being met with guilds and huge forces of both opposing factions with next to 0 probability of your own faction aiding you. So yes, the 2 opposing factions front-line is where the best fights are at, agreed.

also...on the down low, the best farms aren't just about not dying, they're actually from taking long contested objectives :P

Rin_Senya

Satiar wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Daaamn...So apparently zerging front lines together with your faction pugs and other guilds in one massive blob is harder than going somewhere trying to create your own fights! I guess all these 1vX and smallscale players that not zerging from one keep to another with their factions just want an easy-mode game. Shame. Shame. Shame.

As we all know, if you want a true test of your abilities, you go farm pugs at Nikel....

Kinda a bit a sad to see you calling all these AD and DC guilds (including your own) that normally come to Nikel (sometimes even together with their faction..but that's just to challenge themselves for sure!) -"pugs"

Iskras

Caltrops, negates... end party!

Easy!

Logohs

In west Philadelphia born and raised
On the playground was where I spent most of my days

Vilestride

Logohs wrote: »

In west Philadelphia born and raised
On the playground was where I spent most of my days

That's racist. You should know better Logohs.

HowlKimchi

Well open world pvp in cyro was never meant to be competitive. We have BGs for that. Now, BGs is still pretty undeveloped right now, but making it a base game feature, having the option to select game mode, and having better matchmaking for solos and groups are all steps to the right direction. Hopefully we can host our own BG game soon.

Having said that Cyrodiil isn't competitive, it doesnt mean that it isn't challenging / unfun, since you can look for fights, form groups to fight zergs, etc.

Vilestride

HaruyukiHana wrote: »

Well open world pvp in cyro was never meant to be competitive. We have BGs for that. Now, BGs is still pretty undeveloped right now, but making it a base game feature, having the option to select game mode, and having better matchmaking for solos and groups are all steps to the right direction. Hopefully we can host our own BG game soon.

Having said that Cyrodiil isn't competitive, it doesnt mean that it isn't challenging / unfun, since you can look for fights, form groups to fight zergs, etc.

You're right, it wasn't intended to it's not an insult to point out that it is not.

Custom BG's or private matches would be a great addition in my opinion.

PenguinInACan

I'm not sure why the "competitive" argument is being dug up again, but I think a few things need to be put in perspective before any legitimate skill-based statements can be made.

• Availability of consistent competition:
  This is the number one metric for ego inflation and meta composition influence in Cyrodiil. There are currently around 1-3 guilds that run a competitive roster on NA between all 3 factions that (when numbers are equal) maintain a 50% chance of victory over another of these guilds. This leads to a very negative opinion about the playstyles those guilds adopt due to the small list of people who can adequately fight them straight up.
  
• Collaboration within faction :
  When trying to remain competitive, each major guild needs consistent interest in its goals to remain relevant. If a guild cannot keep a competitive roster capable of meta shifts and fluid participation, they will not remain relevent. Again, there are currently around 1-3 guilds that run a roster capable of sustaining a competitive composition. In order to supplement the lack of composition, guilds need to recruit. The population of players that want to participate in coordinated group PvP with all of the commitments involved (having multiple characters for raid roles etc) is the lowest it has been in years. This point is made obvious when you look at the rosters of the "top tier" guilds. They all share members, and they all have (at one point or another) had members playing on opposing faction PvP guilds.
  
• Collaboration within PvP guild community:
  This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best. The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.
  
• Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
  This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.

The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."