Feanor wrote: »

I think it’s funny how this thread died when actual counter arguments to facts are needed...

The only thing funny about this thread is how you take the argument to Nbs when you have no answer,

Both nbs and sorcs are overpowered in the passives department , and when you say nb is op, they tell you no, sorc is op, and when you say sorc is op, they will tell you no, nb is op, and pass the ball between them.

You do know I am a Dk main, yet you take the argument to nbs being OP, ON PURPOSE, just so you can seem right.

Magsorc passives and overall costs are tons better than what a magDk has, and stamsorc is just leagues ahead of DK when it comes to passives.

Yet you come here with a dumb list that just lists what buffs/debuffs each class has, and you try to make a point from such a pointless list,

That dumb list tells me Dk has access to: defile,expedition,empower,minor vitality,major fortitude, major mending..

While in reality, an average DK has none of these. Sorcs do lack debuffs and some special buffs, but they do have some unique passives that are better than having ''major this, minor that'' on an ability you will never use.

That was my original point, and you still managed to drag the discussion to nightblades.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I think it’s funny how this thread died when actual counter arguments to facts are needed...

The only thing funny about this thread is how you take the argument to Nbs when you have no answer,

Both nbs and sorcs are overpowered in the passives department , and when you say nb is op, they tell you no, sorc is op, and when you say sorc is op, they will tell you no, nb is op, and pass the ball between them.

You do know I am a Dk main, yet you take the argument to nbs being OP, ON PURPOSE, just so you can seem right.

Magsorc passives and overall costs are tons better than what a magDk has, and stamsorc is just leagues ahead of DK when it comes to passives.

Yet you come here with a dumb list that just lists what buffs/debuffs each class has, and you try to make a point from such a pointless list,

That dumb list tells me Dk has access to: defile,expedition,empower,minor vitality,major fortitude, major mending..

While in reality, an average DK has none of these. Sorcs do lack debuffs and some special buffs, but they do have some unique passives that are better than having ''major this, minor that'' on an ability you will never use.

That was my original point, and you still managed to drag the discussion to nightblades.

I see, you're a dk main that strongly wants 2 other classes nerfed.

Mag/ stam dk? Do you have trouble hitting and killing the sorc/ nb by spamming dizzying?

Potatoes gon potate.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I think it’s funny how this thread died when actual counter arguments to facts are needed...

The only thing funny about this thread is how you take the argument to Nbs when you have no answer,

Both nbs and sorcs are overpowered in the passives department , and when you say nb is op, they tell you no, sorc is op, and when you say sorc is op, they will tell you no, nb is op, and pass the ball between them.

You do know I am a Dk main, yet you take the argument to nbs being OP, ON PURPOSE, just so you can seem right.

Magsorc passives and overall costs are tons better than what a magDk has, and stamsorc is just leagues ahead of DK when it comes to passives.

Yet you come here with a dumb list that just lists what buffs/debuffs each class has, and you try to make a point from such a pointless list,

That dumb list tells me Dk has access to: defile,expedition,empower,minor vitality,major fortitude, major mending..

While in reality, an average DK has none of these. Sorcs do lack debuffs and some special buffs, but they do have some unique passives that are better than having ''major this, minor that'' on an ability you will never use.

That was my original point, and you still managed to drag the discussion to nightblades.

I see, you're a dk main that strongly wants 2 other classes nerfed.

Mag/ stam dk? Do you have trouble hitting and killing the sorc/ nb by spamming dizzying?

They don’t have nerf those classes but need to buff dk up to par with them.

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Sharee

You can have an execute if you give us your Flame Lash spammable - in lightning, of course. Oh, and give us a passive that says "free 25% damage on everything against vampires".

Reading this I say Yes, Yes, YESSSSSS to duel wield lightning whips for my Sorc.



Here ZOS take my money, take my crowns, take all of it!

You can have noodle (admittedly good, but not enough to warrant the class good.) and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

You can have noodle and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

Bolded statement is not true though mate. Less burst, perhaps. Less damage definitely not. BG'ing with classes and checking the damage at the end.

Depending on type and duration of game I usually get:
Stamblade: 500k-800k
MagSorc/MagBlade: 600k-1m
DK/MagDen: 900k-1.5m

It's literally 50% more than I average on the other classes mag classes bar MagDen. And I haven't really tested MagDen this patch since the nerfs to Birds. He might have fallen off a bit. Kills usually higher with Sorc/NB though.

Stamblade always seems low, even to me. But then so many people can't survive the opening burst that on an opponent of 23k HP you rarely have to do to more than 25k damage to kill them. And if they survive that burst, you're better off switching to a squishier target or resetting.

Letting dots tick vs actual killing damage. On my DK i will dot up as many players generally, I mean why not. Talons+engulfing helps group, and embers is healing. Then add the dot+return from spiked armour and you will get hyperinflated numbers. The damage, even pressure in a 1v1 that comes from a dotblade or a dotsorc outdoes DK, even with the 25% because relying on being a tank is a massive damage loss.

DK actually, despite passives, has a very high potential damage, both dots and burst, output. Even against a ST. But are often forced into two sustain sets and s/b+heavy if wanting to be viable OW, which reduces damage. Niche destro/resto builds exist, but "DK is a tank class" kappa.

Hence " Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently."

Dots are a great type of pressure and DKs also have burst in their ultie. If Sorcs in particular did not kill steal in BGs with their execute, I reckon DKs would be as high as anyone. I disagree that dot damage is not killing damage.

Also bleedblades and bleedsorcs are duel builds mostly. You're no comparing OW build damage with duel build damage. You wouldn't build for tanking in a duel on a DK either and neither would you go vamp. You can go 2H/Resto and rely on shields for dealing with the bleeds/dots. Shields are better 1v1 than blocking.

I don't disagree that nerfed tankiness and lack of mobility is gimping DK in more open content compared to other classes. But really it's not the damage that is lacking from the class. I never felt damage was a problem in my DK at least.

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

You can have noodle and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

Bolded statement is not true though mate. Less burst, perhaps. Less damage definitely not. BG'ing with classes and checking the damage at the end.

Depending on type and duration of game I usually get:
Stamblade: 500k-800k
MagSorc/MagBlade: 600k-1m
DK/MagDen: 900k-1.5m

It's literally 50% more than I average on the other classes mag classes bar MagDen. And I haven't really tested MagDen this patch since the nerfs to Birds. He might have fallen off a bit. Kills usually higher with Sorc/NB though.

Stamblade always seems low, even to me. But then so many people can't survive the opening burst that on an opponent of 23k HP you rarely have to do to more than 25k damage to kill them. And if they survive that burst, you're better off switching to a squishier target or resetting.

Letting dots tick vs actual killing damage. On my DK i will dot up as many players generally, I mean why not. Talons+engulfing helps group, and embers is healing. Then add the dot+return from spiked armour and you will get hyperinflated numbers. The damage, even pressure in a 1v1 that comes from a dotblade or a dotsorc outdoes DK, even with the 25% because relying on being a tank is a massive damage loss.

DK actually, despite passives, has a very high potential damage, both dots and burst, output. Even against a ST. But are often forced into two sustain sets and s/b+heavy if wanting to be viable OW, which reduces damage. Niche destro/resto builds exist, but "DK is a tank class" kappa.

Hence " Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently."

Dots are a great type of pressure and DKs also have burst in their ultie. If Sorcs in particular did not kill steal in BGs with their execute, I reckon DKs would be as high as anyone. I disagree that dot damage is not killing damage.

Also bleedblades and bleedsorcs are duel builds mostly. You're no comparing OW build damage with duel build damage. You wouldn't build for tanking in a duel on a DK either and neither would you go vamp. You can go 2H/Resto and rely on shields for dealing with the bleeds/dots. Shields are better 1v1 than blocking.

I don't disagree that nerfed tankiness and lack of mobility is gimping DK in more open content compared to other classes. But really it's not the damage that is lacking from the class. I never felt damage was a problem in my DK at least.

Idk, I ran a dot build on my stamsorc OW, since its dots had better killing power. Implosion, constant unpurgable hurricane, poison injection. If anything got too hairy I just ran like heck.

I also don't disagree that DK damage is fine for how its played, but in comparison to other openworld builds of a similar type, take a heavy armour warden, heavy NB, heavy stamplar, a DK has quite a bit less killing power, even with the 25% extra damage. Sets like 7th (rip) fury and ravager.

Tbh I don't even think MDK is that bad this patch. (because everything else has been nerfed) Sure, utterly awful in OW. But buffed in most duels, as if they werent strong enough, and good in BGs. Its just when I see those people saying DK can delete groups of vamps with a single (fiery) breath. I can barely cast one without being mag drained.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

You can have noodle and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

Bolded statement is not true though mate. Less burst, perhaps. Less damage definitely not. BG'ing with classes and checking the damage at the end.

Depending on type and duration of game I usually get:
Stamblade: 500k-800k
MagSorc/MagBlade: 600k-1m
DK/MagDen: 900k-1.5m

It's literally 50% more than I average on the other classes mag classes bar MagDen. And I haven't really tested MagDen this patch since the nerfs to Birds. He might have fallen off a bit. Kills usually higher with Sorc/NB though.

Stamblade always seems low, even to me. But then so many people can't survive the opening burst that on an opponent of 23k HP you rarely have to do to more than 25k damage to kill them. And if they survive that burst, you're better off switching to a squishier target or resetting.

Letting dots tick vs actual killing damage. On my DK i will dot up as many players generally, I mean why not. Talons+engulfing helps group, and embers is healing. Then add the dot+return from spiked armour and you will get hyperinflated numbers. The damage, even pressure in a 1v1 that comes from a dotblade or a dotsorc outdoes DK, even with the 25% because relying on being a tank is a massive damage loss.

DK actually, despite passives, has a very high potential damage, both dots and burst, output. Even against a ST. But are often forced into two sustain sets and s/b+heavy if wanting to be viable OW, which reduces damage. Niche destro/resto builds exist, but "DK is a tank class" kappa.

Hence " Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently."

DoTs are strong in PvP. I used to think they were trash because it's not much damage, they get cleansed, vigor just heals through them, etc., and was I dead wrong.

Thinking back to how mediocre I used to be playing this game, the biggest difference by far is my appreciation for the pressure DoTs put on opponents.

They don't put up sexy kill counter numbers, but @Maulkin is right, they output *a lot* of damage and your opponents must react, heal through, and consume resources to counter that damage. DKs and templars (at least magicka versions) should have the highest output in BGs by quite a bit, even if they dont rack up numbers in the leftmost column.

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

You can have noodle and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

Bolded statement is not true though mate. Less burst, perhaps. Less damage definitely not. BG'ing with classes and checking the damage at the end.

Depending on type and duration of game I usually get:
Stamblade: 500k-800k
MagSorc/MagBlade: 600k-1m
DK/MagDen: 900k-1.5m

It's literally 50% more than I average on the other classes mag classes bar MagDen. And I haven't really tested MagDen this patch since the nerfs to Birds. He might have fallen off a bit. Kills usually higher with Sorc/NB though.

Stamblade always seems low, even to me. But then so many people can't survive the opening burst that on an opponent of 23k HP you rarely have to do to more than 25k damage to kill them. And if they survive that burst, you're better off switching to a squishier target or resetting.

Letting dots tick vs actual killing damage. On my DK i will dot up as many players generally, I mean why not. Talons+engulfing helps group, and embers is healing. Then add the dot+return from spiked armour and you will get hyperinflated numbers. The damage, even pressure in a 1v1 that comes from a dotblade or a dotsorc outdoes DK, even with the 25% because relying on being a tank is a massive damage loss.

DK actually, despite passives, has a very high potential damage, both dots and burst, output. Even against a ST. But are often forced into two sustain sets and s/b+heavy if wanting to be viable OW, which reduces damage. Niche destro/resto builds exist, but "DK is a tank class" kappa.

Hence " Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently."

Dots are a great type of pressure and DKs also have burst in their ultie. If Sorcs in particular did not kill steal in BGs with their execute, I reckon DKs would be as high as anyone. I disagree that dot damage is not killing damage.

Also bleedblades and bleedsorcs are duel builds mostly. You're no comparing OW build damage with duel build damage. You wouldn't build for tanking in a duel on a DK either and neither would you go vamp. You can go 2H/Resto and rely on shields for dealing with the bleeds/dots. Shields are better 1v1 than blocking.

I don't disagree that nerfed tankiness and lack of mobility is gimping DK in more open content compared to other classes. But really it's not the damage that is lacking from the class. I never felt damage was a problem in my DK at least.

Idk, I ran a dot build on my stamsorc OW, since its dots had better killing power. Implosion, constant unpurgable hurricane, poison injection. If anything got too hairy I just ran like heck.

I also don't disagree that DK damage is fine for how its played, but in comparison to other openworld builds of a similar type, take a heavy armour warden, heavy NB, heavy stamplar, a DK has quite a bit less killing power, even with the 25% extra damage. Sets like 7th (rip) fury and ravager.

Tbh I don't even think MDK is that bad this patch. (because everything else has been nerfed) Sure, utterly awful in OW. But buffed in most duels, as if they werent strong enough, and good in BGs. Its just when I see those people saying DK can delete groups of vamps with a single (fiery) breath. I can barely cast one without being mag drained.

You are comparing a mDK with heavy armor stam builds. Thats like comparing apples with oranges. Those are not similar type builds. Stam builds can do generally better in OW. This is completely irrelevant with the classes. If you want to compare mDK then compare it with other magicka classes. Most magicka builds use sustain/tanky sets and sacrifice dmg in OW just like mDKs. Only magblades and wardens can probably get away with dmg sets. The most popular sets for sorcs are shackle, amber, lich, riposte. Non of them is a dmg set.

Cause they can't sustain cause all their skills are expensive asf. Please do some research on this before you respond so you don't waste my time.

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

You can have noodle and wings (You'll have to glue them back together first, too much snip snip.) if we can have fire fury and fire streak. Also would trade sustain too.

Also funny how through the 25% free damage DK (if wanting to be actually OW viable) has less damage than most other classes. Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently.

Bolded statement is not true though mate. Less burst, perhaps. Less damage definitely not. BG'ing with classes and checking the damage at the end.

Depending on type and duration of game I usually get:
Stamblade: 500k-800k
MagSorc/MagBlade: 600k-1m
DK/MagDen: 900k-1.5m

It's literally 50% more than I average on the other classes mag classes bar MagDen. And I haven't really tested MagDen this patch since the nerfs to Birds. He might have fallen off a bit. Kills usually higher with Sorc/NB though.

Stamblade always seems low, even to me. But then so many people can't survive the opening burst that on an opponent of 23k HP you rarely have to do to more than 25k damage to kill them. And if they survive that burst, you're better off switching to a squishier target or resetting.

Letting dots tick vs actual killing damage. On my DK i will dot up as many players generally, I mean why not. Talons+engulfing helps group, and embers is healing. Then add the dot+return from spiked armour and you will get hyperinflated numbers. The damage, even pressure in a 1v1 that comes from a dotblade or a dotsorc outdoes DK, even with the 25% because relying on being a tank is a massive damage loss.

DK actually, despite passives, has a very high potential damage, both dots and burst, output. Even against a ST. But are often forced into two sustain sets and s/b+heavy if wanting to be viable OW, which reduces damage. Niche destro/resto builds exist, but "DK is a tank class" kappa.

Hence " Thanks reliance on constantly nerfed block/tankiness and no other usable forms of defense that scale decently."

Dots are a great type of pressure and DKs also have burst in their ultie. If Sorcs in particular did not kill steal in BGs with their execute, I reckon DKs would be as high as anyone. I disagree that dot damage is not killing damage.

Also bleedblades and bleedsorcs are duel builds mostly. You're no comparing OW build damage with duel build damage. You wouldn't build for tanking in a duel on a DK either and neither would you go vamp. You can go 2H/Resto and rely on shields for dealing with the bleeds/dots. Shields are better 1v1 than blocking.

I don't disagree that nerfed tankiness and lack of mobility is gimping DK in more open content compared to other classes. But really it's not the damage that is lacking from the class. I never felt damage was a problem in my DK at least.

Idk, I ran a dot build on my stamsorc OW, since its dots had better killing power. Implosion, constant unpurgable hurricane, poison injection. If anything got too hairy I just ran like heck.

I also don't disagree that DK damage is fine for how its played, but in comparison to other openworld builds of a similar type, take a heavy armour warden, heavy NB, heavy stamplar, a DK has quite a bit less killing power, even with the 25% extra damage. Sets like 7th (rip) fury and ravager.

Tbh I don't even think MDK is that bad this patch. (because everything else has been nerfed) Sure, utterly awful in OW. But buffed in most duels, as if they werent strong enough, and good in BGs. Its just when I see those people saying DK can delete groups of vamps with a single (fiery) breath. I can barely cast one without being mag drained.

You are comparing a mDK with heavy armor stam builds. Thats like comparing apples with oranges. Those are not similar type builds. Stam builds can do generally better in OW. This is completely irrelevant with the classes. If you want to compare mDK then compare it with other magicka classes. Most magicka builds use sustain/tanky sets and sacrifice dmg in OW just like mDKs. Only magblades and wardens can probably get away with dmg sets. The most popular sets for sorcs are shackle, amber, lich, riposte. Non of them is a dmg set.

I was just going based of tanky playstyled classes. The only similar class of a MagDk is probably a magplar, which are probably worse off than DK cause no lockdown.

Sorcs also having to run 2x sustain or utility sets is pretty dampening, but at least they get to invest into mag for their defense. But yeah the sustain changes hit them real bad. (I ran necro divines, mag stone, and old OP desert rose, died within one patch.)