Loot Boxes now becoming Illegal. How does this effect Crown Crates?

VexingArcanist · February 2018

Children. Gambling.

/thread

AefionBloodclaw · February 2018

The difference between Loot Crates and Crown Crates is that Crown Crates don't give in-game benefits. Other than Experience Scrolls. Oooh you get extra xp big deal, get over it. Crown Crates have cool cosmetics, and there's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't really be compared to those EA type loot crates. If someone gets addicted to buying more and more crates to get cosmetic stuff, big deal it doesn't break the game or the person (hopefully)

Elsonso · February 2018

AefionBloodclaw wrote: »

The difference between Loot Crates and Crown Crates is that Crown Crates don't give in-game benefits. Other than Experience Scrolls. Oooh you get extra xp big deal, get over it. Crown Crates have cool cosmetics, and there's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't really be compared to those EA type loot crates. If someone gets addicted to buying more and more crates to get cosmetic stuff, big deal it doesn't break the game or the person (hopefully)

Crown Crates are loot boxes. They are a form of loot box that contains convenience items and cosmetics, in the form of mounts, pets, costumes, hair, makeup, emotes, etc. They are not the form of loot box that contains game changing equipment (armor and weapons).

I agree that they do not rise to the level of what EA did, and EA probably still wants to do. That does not mean that they don't share similarities, including studio addiction dependence upon them.

Perwulf · February 2018

AefionBloodclaw wrote: »

The difference between Loot Crates and Crown Crates is that Crown Crates don't give in-game benefits. Other than Experience Scrolls. Oooh you get extra xp big deal, get over it. Crown Crates have cool cosmetics, and there's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't really be compared to those EA type loot crates. If someone gets addicted to buying more and more crates to get cosmetic stuff, big deal it doesn't break the game or the person (hopefully)

TL:DR = Gambling boxes. Looks pretty much the same to me. Me and most of my friends left ESO because of this because it's a disgusting thing to lock good stuffs behind rngs or with ridiculous crown price. While we're just a part of smaller playerbase who left the game, I'm pretty sure that someday when players had enough of this predatory marketing they will leave the game too and it looks like it's the road where this game is heading.

LadyAstrum · February 2018

VexingArcanist wrote: »

Children. Gambling.

/thread

I think at best there'll eventually be regulations put into place, but I doubt loot boxes will be outright banned. I think it'll be up to game companies whether they're lucrative/morally tasteful enough to continue, if regulations are put into place.

Hokiewa · February 2018

VexingArcanist wrote: »

Children. Gambling.

/thread

Children. Internet.

/unthread

Wreuntzylla · February 2018

Cue song ''You're so vain.' It's not about you. It's not. It's about the 3-4% of the population that are genetically or chemically compelled to keep spending.

That's right, you could be chemically manipulated to ruin your life on boxes. Read some studies on the side effects of Alzheimer's medications. It's one of those things that makes you laugh and cry at the same time (also can come with compulsive sex disorders, including very boring accountant type people suddenly becoming super freaks).

Loot boxes don't necessarily disappear if they are labeled gambling, they would simply fall under gambling regulations and caselaw. Some of which protect you even if you aren't compulsive but after a drinking binge wake up to find you owe millions of dollars to a casino that you don't even remember going to.

It becomes really sad when kids are involved. Or when someone bankrupts their family and commits suicide because their death is the only way for their family to avoid certain debts.

Full disclosure: I am genetically insulated from addiction, but have had involvement in cases where adopted natives, without ever knowing anything about the people who conceived them, and living in middle class environments with great parents, went down the exact same drug/alcohol addiction path their genetic parents did, almost in an identical manner. They at least did not have to give up their children as the family was well situated to care for them.

An interesting life lesson about how you can escape your environment but you can't escape genetics.

exiars10 · February 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

AefionBloodclaw wrote: »

The difference between Loot Crates and Crown Crates is that Crown Crates don't give in-game benefits. Other than Experience Scrolls. Oooh you get extra xp big deal, get over it. Crown Crates have cool cosmetics, and there's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't really be compared to those EA type loot crates. If someone gets addicted to buying more and more crates to get cosmetic stuff, big deal it doesn't break the game or the person (hopefully)

Crown Crates are loot boxes. They are a form of loot box that contains convenience items and cosmetics, in the form of mounts, pets, costumes, hair, makeup, emotes, etc. They are not the form of loot box that contains game changing equipment (armor and weapons).

I agree that they do not rise to the level of what EA did, and EA probably still wants to do. That does not mean that they don't share similarities, including studio addiction dependence upon them.

But they are not loot boxes. You get loot boxes by playing game (like many Steam games) and then you have to buy key to open them. You never get crown boxes in ESO for playing it (of course I exclude special promotion in January for ESO Plus subscribers). They just don't freely drop into your inventory so when you hover it you see what you can possible get if you open it - basically temp you to open them.
I deleted hundreds and hundreds of crates for TF2 and CS: GO.

VexingArcanist wrote: »

Children. Gambling.

/thread

It's not gambling (even Jim Sterling who is loudest about it admit it's not real gamling but call it gamling so politicians could get involved) and game is PEGI 18 in Europe. So if parents buy game targeted to adults it's not my problem and shouldn't be anybody except those parents.

Elsonso · February 2018

exiars10 wrote: »

But they are not loot boxes. You get loot boxes by playing game (like many Steam games) and then you have to buy key to open them. You never get crown boxes in ESO for playing it (of course I exclude special promotion in January for ESO Plus subscribers). They just don't freely drop into your inventory so when you hover it you see what you can possible get if you open it - basically temp you to open them.
I deleted hundreds and hundreds of crates for TF2 and CS: GO.

They are all loot boxes. In the MMO sense of the term. They are all monetization schemes that involve a virtual container that contains a random assortment of digital goods. That is pretty much the definition, and the "monetization" might be considered optional by some people. For the purposes of this discussion, it is not optional.

My understanding is that Crown Crates do not (yet) meet any widely accepted legal definition of "gambling", and probably won't. Other definitions of "gambling" could include Crown Crates, but the legal one is the big one, and it does not.

Edit: The main problem with calling Crown Crates gambling lies with the risk. Crown Crates always have a prize. They are like Cracker Jack boxes. That eliminates the risk, which is one of the three pillars of gambling.

Coolits · February 2018

Today Hawaii legislators have introduced four new bills designed to limit the implementation of electronic gambling systems (aka loot boxes),

One pair of bills, House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024, would prohibit the sale of any game featuring a system wherein players can purchase a randomized reward using real money to anyone younger than 21 years old.

The other two bills, House Bill 2727 and Senate Bill 3025, would require video game publishers to prominently label games containing such randomized purchase systems, as well as disclose the probability rates of receiving each loot box reward.

Another nail in the coffin of loot boxes

Turelus · February 2018

Coolits wrote: »

Today Hawaii legislators have introduced four new bills designed to limit the implementation of electronic gambling systems (aka loot boxes),

One pair of bills, House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024, would prohibit the sale of any game featuring a system wherein players can purchase a randomized reward using real money to anyone younger than 21 years old.

The other two bills, House Bill 2727 and Senate Bill 3025, would require video game publishers to prominently label games containing such randomized purchase systems, as well as disclose the probability rates of receiving each loot box reward.

Another nail in the coffin of loot boxes

I doubt it, the game already has an adult rating as mentioned before.

They'll just bump the rating up, make us agree to another EULA/ToS and anyone who lies and breaks it has no case in court.

Azurya · February 2018

it is quite like working for a software company from your homeoffice.
you never know, if you will get any money for it
if you do, that is also in some sense gambling, isn´t it??

exiars10 · February 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

They are all loot boxes. In the MMO sense of the term. They are all monetization schemes that involve a virtual container that contains a random assortment of digital goods. That is pretty much the definition, and the "monetization" might be considered optional by some people. For the purposes of this discussion, it is not optional.

My understanding is that Crown Crates do not (yet) meet any widely accepted legal definition of "gambling", and probably won't. Other definitions of "gambling" could include Crown Crates, but the legal one is the big one, and it does not.

Edit: The main problem with calling Crown Crates gambling lies with the risk. Crown Crates always have a prize. They are like Cracker Jack boxes. That eliminates the risk, which is one of the three pillars of gambling.

Again, Crown Crates are not loot boxes. They don't drop freely in ESO. There is nothing to loot. When you play TF2, CS: GO, and so on, they drop as you progress and play. Big difference. Zenimax doesn't give you loot boxes for free so you have to buy keys to open them.

And yes, no gambling because you always get something. Just because buyers are disappointed what they got doesn't mean it's gambling.

Obligatory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsNIFD7TxwU

Coolits wrote: »

Today Hawaii legislators have introduced four new bills designed to limit the implementation of electronic gambling systems (aka loot boxes),

One pair of bills, House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024, would prohibit the sale of any game featuring a system wherein players can purchase a randomized reward using real money to anyone younger than 21 years old.

The other two bills, House Bill 2727 and Senate Bill 3025, would require video game publishers to prominently label games containing such randomized purchase systems, as well as disclose the probability rates of receiving each loot box reward.

Another nail in the coffin of loot boxes

Ha ha, who cares about Hawaii?!

And of course they just want to rise legal age to 21. It's already PEGI 18 in Europe, so yea.
And about disclose - this system is already in place in PRC and some game publishers easily bypassed it (ATVI says hi) and did it stop people from spending money of loot boxes? Of course not.

Hokiewa · February 2018

Coolits wrote: »

Today Hawaii legislators have introduced four new bills designed to limit the implementation of electronic gambling systems (aka loot boxes),

One pair of bills, House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024, would prohibit the sale of any game featuring a system wherein players can purchase a randomized reward using real money to anyone younger than 21 years old.

The other two bills, House Bill 2727 and Senate Bill 3025, would require video game publishers to prominently label games containing such randomized purchase systems, as well as disclose the probability rates of receiving each loot box reward.

Another nail in the coffin of loot boxes

I can already tell you that ESO and the majority of well known games with loot boxes, crates etc....have already gone around the proposed legislation especially that first set. They did this well in advance when Korea and China attempted the same thing. House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024 may pass but buying crowns to then purchase crown crates would not violate that state law by the mere fact that you are not using cash to directly purchase a randomized reward. Additionally, the state of Hawaii has no legal authority to enforce federally legal commerce on the Internet (commerce clause). The legislators know this because a more specific law would be not be upheld by the Ninth Circuit. It would've have made much more legal sense to restrict the sales to anyone under 18. Regardless, if initially passed, the number of companies with massive legal budgets will overturn it the first time somebody attempts to enforce it, arguing as successfully in previous attempts, that Hawaii has violated the Commerce Clause. In fact, most circuit courts have established precedent that loot crates etc...do not constitute gambling at all, which is a further argument that companies will make.

It's not a nail by any stretch, it's one state with ineffective and rather embarrassing attempts to jump the wagon.

Coolits · February 2018

These guys have done a pretty good summary of today's Hawaii news, it's awesome that more than half of the states in the US are also looking at adopting similar legislation.

Elsonso · February 2018

Coolits wrote: »

These guys have done a pretty good summary of today's Hawaii news, it's awesome that almost half of the states in the US are also looking at adopting similar legislation.

Depending on the language of the proposed law in Hawaii, those could hit this game. The report certainly opens it up to all loot boxes, not just the ones that come with pay to win games, like BF2.

Pops_ND_Irish · February 2018

Geez

Coolits · February 2018

A US senator has requested the ESRB review the rating process with regards to loot boxes or face the FTC.

It's amazing now this has gone mainstream just how much attention it is getting outside of gaming circles.

Pops_ND_Irish · February 2018

Hehe, worrying about a game instead of more important things.
If someone can ruin someone or something over something completely meaningless, they will just to get the satisfaction that they did it.
Ridiculous If you dont want crown crates dont buy em. How hard is it

lucky_Sage · February 2018

SisterGoat wrote: »

ESO is already M rated, so upping the rating is not going to work.

if they keep them they would have to go to adult rating like gta san andrias did and it would really hurt the game

exiars10 · February 2018

It won't hurt game - as I typed it's PEGI 18 here in Europe which is highest possible rating i.e. like AO in US.

And I am suprised how Americans don't know how they legal system works.

As @Hokiewa wrote, people don't know that federal judges have final say in everything.

witchdoctor · February 2018

I wonder how many people hoping Crown crates are deemed 'illegal,' will cry when the subscription comes back (and increases).

Pops_ND_Irish · February 2018

All of them will ! Crown crates go away they will have to try and, get rid of or try to make, something else free.
Whining about crown crates because they have to take a chance on getting something. They want it free and then complain because its fee for everybody. Geez play the game and enjoy it instead of complaining about minuscule things.

Elsonso · February 2018

witchdoctor wrote: »

I wonder how many people hoping Crown crates are deemed 'illegal,' will cry when the subscription comes back (and increases).

No worries there. The required subscription is not coming back. Why? Because they have learned that they can have BOTH worlds. A game where most of the active players subscribe and a game where there is a cash store with loot boxes that brings in boatloads of cash. Players will pay for both. At the same time!

What's not to love here?

Penarddun · February 2018

Is this why the new crates didn't come out with the new DLC? They are on hold or something?

Elsonso · February 2018

Penarddun wrote: »

Is this why the new crates didn't come out with the new DLC? They are on hold or something?

No. It is just not time for them to switch crate seasons.

Coolits · February 2018

Senator Chris Lee has just released an update video which among other things shows the ESA and other lobbyists discussing lootboxes in Hawaii. Interesting stuff.

Slick_007 · February 2018

Coolits wrote: »

Senator Chris Lee has just released an update video which among other things shows the ESA and other lobbyists discussing lootboxes in Hawaii. Interesting stuff.

i watched it. there really was nothing in there even worth watching. If this guy wants to promote himself maybe he should learn something about what hes trying to legislate because it really seemed like nobody there had a damn clue including the senator.

Raideen · February 2018

I watched the video and this video is huge.

The ESRB has no comment on loot boxes and its noted that they do not police them with their rating system. This has to change.

Secondly. Talking about the CEO of Electronic Arts bragging about how to "Design moments of frustration that encourage you to buy loot boxes" is extremely telling of the predatory acts that surround loot crates and dare I say even cash shops in general. This snippet can be found at 10:30

Not only are loot boxes predatory and designed to be, but games (and this is extremely obvious in ESO to anyone with a design background) that employ cash shops are designed to funnel you to their store on a consistent basis to spend money. This game nickel and dimes you every time you turn around, especially if you are a person who plays MMORPG's to collect, role play, or dress up your character. A fine example of this is the price of outfit slots, the fact they are for one character only and then the cost to create outfits which is extremely expensive in gold. The issue is none of this is promoted when the game is purchased, none of this is talked about when you subscribe, its just something you find out as you go along. The design of the game is very close to bait and switch. Bait the idea of an MMORPG with the purchase, but do not use any disclaimers to addess that the R in RPG can mostly be had only through crown purchases. The fact that the vast majority of mounts, costumes, and NPC pets can only be had with crowns is disgusting. It is not mentioned anywhere that the vast majority of these items do not exist in game, not as drops, not for gold.

Lunaugh · February 2018

Worth looking into for this discussion is the different gambling laws for video slot machines. In Texas, Video machines are regulated under seperate laws, as they pay out in a different fashion. They still operate on the same process as a slot machine (put money in, spin some wheels, potential to earn store credit).
Seeing as what is gambled on for crown crates is not something you can hold, exchange or re-sell, it may not be included in the gambling laws.