Loot Boxes now becoming Illegal. How does this effect Crown Crates?

sheepdog2142_ESO

With loot boxes becoming illegal in Belgium, the U.S. now looking into it, and Europe could we finally get rid of the Crown Crates system that is now becoming illegal in some nations?

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03EY02y2WE

SydneyGrey

I would be fine with that, because then ZOS would be forced to put all that stuff in the Crown Store instead.

Turelus

If the backlash is bad enough and we finally actually see some laws on this stuff then ZOS would either need to up the rating and warn the game has gambling or drop the practice and return to selling single items.

Not watched all the video yet, but if it's tied to just progression in order to be gambling then nothing changes for ZOS.

SisterGoat

ESO is already M rated, so upping the rating is not going to work.

witchdoctor

While this is an interesting turn of events, and one that hopefully has a positive, i.e., no-more-loot-box-outcome, a few things off the top of my head:

1. Oddly enough, Hawaii, as a US state, probably has more leeway in regulating business inside its borders than Belgium does by virtue of membership in the EU (and associated supra-national bodies) (i.e., I highly doubt Belgium can 'force' another EU member's hand by declaring something illegal)

2. If individual states or nations push hard enough, game publishers response might be to not sell in those areas. May be difficult for an MMO, I suppose, but, that's what lawyers are for

3. I didn't read that Belgium had made it 'illegal,' rather their Justice Ministry had held it to be gambling and were referring the matter to supra-national bodies (per point 1)

Storymaster

If the selling of crime crates is stopped, is this going to have a negative impact on ESO's regular content schedule that has insofar been nonpareil to any mmorpg out there? That's what I am really concerned about, despite my disgust for crime crates.

Juhasow

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

Turelus

Storymaster wrote: »

If the selling of crime crates is stopped, is this going to have a negative impact on ESO's regular content schedule that has insofar been nonpareil to any mmorpg out there? That's what I am really concerned about, despite my disgust for crime crates.

ESO will be fine. They will just put higher price more limited time items in the store. There are other games which managed to run just fine without these boxes. ESO was also doing fine before these boxes.

sheepdog2142_ESO

SisterGoat wrote: »

ESO is already M rated, so upping the rating is not going to work.

Gambling is 21+ in allot of places so the M rating would not be high enough legally.

sheepdog2142_ESO

Juhasow wrote: »

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

From what I can tell they are now going after any game of chance. Also they are now targeting it because it allows people under the age of 21 to gamble. The developer also does need to pay a for a gambling licences and raise the games age to 21.

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

BloodWolfe

I hope this starts the end to all loot/gamble boxes in all games! These things are the worst thing to hit gaming and I refuse to ever support this practice.

Elsonso

Interesting.

Given how they are applying more pressure to make Crown Crates attractive, with the free Crates to get people started, and the Radiant Apex rewards that cannot be purchased with Gems, it will be interesting to see if they make any changes in order to distance themselves from EA. Perhaps their lawyers are already comfortable in how much space they have there.

P.S. - Say NO to Crown Crates.

Coolits

Victoria has also stated that loot boxes are gambling so it seems like the floodgates have opened and it could be a matter of time before they get regulated.

It won't come soon enough.

eklhaftb16_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

free Crates to get people started

Not sure how is that supposed to work, though. Every time I open a free crate, I thank the Divines that I didn't spend any money on that worthless crud.

olivesforge

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Of course, under US laws, definitions are only somewhat relevant, and under federal precedent (i.e nobody cares what Hawaii thinks) digital goods from loot boxes are not “something of value.”

Nothing’s happening, continue your playing.

sheepdog2142_ESO

olivesforge wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Of course, under US laws, definitions are only somewhat relevant, and under federal precedent (i.e nobody cares what Hawaii thinks) digital goods from loot boxes are not “something of value.”

Nothing’s happening, continue your playing.

Websters Definition of value

1 : the monetary worth of something : market price
2 : a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
3 : relative worth, utility, or importance a good value at the price the value of base stealing in baseball had nothing of value to say
4 : something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable

Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

One could argue the items in the crown crates are both valuable and desirable otherwise people would not by them. If you take the definition of Value or Valuable if you will and apply it with the legal definition of gambling there is something to see here.

JamilaRaj

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

free Crates to get people started

Not sure how is that supposed to work, though. Every time I open a free crate, I thank the Divines that I didn't spend any money on that worthless crud.

Easily. They could dispesne free scam boxes that look like cash shop scam boxes but have different contents or drop rates, i.e. they would let you win some token prizes to make you believe chance of winning is much higher than it actually is (ever heard of shell game?).
But they could also employ machine learning and have AI decide when and what you should win, in order to make you spend for as long as possible. In other words, to adjust yields so that you win neither too much nor too little. For example, based on what mounts or costumes you bought, used, talked about, viewed, it could assemble a list and every once in a while let you win some less desirable prize. Accuracy of its guesses would improve over time and with number of sample (players). For example, if a player bought X, Y and Z and then kept buying scam boxes until he won ultimate prize U, and you also bought X, Y and Z, AI would assume you are after U and make sure it is not in the first $500 worth of scam boxes, but feed you some minor prizes along the way.

olivesforge

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

One could argue the items in the crown crates are both valuable and desirable otherwise people would not by them. If you take the definition of Value or Valuable if you will and apply it with the legal definition of gambling there is something to see here.

Several already argued something similar in multiple courts. They all lost. At least in the US, there’s no question. Loot crates contain nothing of value (as defined legally, not as defined by non-legal dictionaries which have no standing under law), and even if they did, the value is the lowest possible result, not the highest.

sheepdog2142_ESO

olivesforge wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

One could argue the items in the crown crates are both valuable and desirable otherwise people would not by them. If you take the definition of Value or Valuable if you will and apply it with the legal definition of gambling there is something to see here.

Several already argued something similar in multiple courts. They all lost. At least in the US, there’s no question. Loot crates contain nothing of value (as defined legally, not as defined by non-legal dictionaries which have no standing under law), and even if they did, the value is the lowest possible result, not the highest.

I guess thats why Belgium and Hawaii decided they are rite?

Coolits

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

One could argue the items in the crown crates are both valuable and desirable otherwise people would not by them. If you take the definition of Value or Valuable if you will and apply it with the legal definition of gambling there is something to see here.

Several already argued something similar in multiple courts. They all lost. At least in the US, there’s no question. Loot crates contain nothing of value (as defined legally, not as defined by non-legal dictionaries which have no standing under law), and even if they did, the value is the lowest possible result, not the highest.

I guess thats why Belgium and Hawaii decided they are rite?

Looking at it from another angle, It's going to be hard to keep selling loot boxes when terms like "predatory towards children" are being thrown about by government officials.

BenevolentBowd

My prediction

There will be a patch to prevent players with Belgium IP's from buying crown crates and no change for everyone else.

Cadbury

Great. Now I can potentially be arrested for illegal possession of crown crates

khele23eb17_ESO

Keep in mind EU is a bureaucracy. Even if they decide on banning lootboxes, it can take years before any regulations actually happen.

Danikat

JamilaRaj wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

free Crates to get people started

Not sure how is that supposed to work, though. Every time I open a free crate, I thank the Divines that I didn't spend any money on that worthless crud.

Easily. They could dispesne free scam boxes that look like cash shop scam boxes but have different contents or drop rates, i.e. they would let you win some token prizes to make you believe chance of winning is much higher than it actually is (ever heard of shell game?).
But they could also employ machine learning and have AI decide when and what you should win, in order to make you spend for as long as possible. In other words, to adjust yields so that you win neither too much nor too little. For example, based on what mounts or costumes you bought, used, talked about, viewed, it could assemble a list and every once in a while let you win some less desirable prize. Accuracy of its guesses would improve over time and with number of sample (players). For example, if a player bought X, Y and Z and then kept buying scam boxes until he won ultimate prize U, and you also bought X, Y and Z, AI would assume you are after U and make sure it is not in the first $500 worth of scam boxes, but feed you some minor prizes along the way.

A machine learning system like that could be very effective with the regular crown crates but it's almost impossible to make it work when you're talking about a person opening just 3 free crates, and especially when your goal for those 3 tries is to get them to buy more crates. You simply don't have enough tries to work with.

ZOS absolutely could get the data - they could match my crown store purchases (and maybe even in-game purchases, forum posts etc.) up to people who have bought crown crates and work out not only the kind of things I'm likely to want but how much I'm likely to spend trying for them before giving up completely. Which is also important - if it's holding back the things I really want until I spend $500 but I only have $100 to spend on this quarters crates all it's doing is making sure I will never get anything I want, and then next time around I'm less likely to spend anything because all I'll remember is spending $100 and getting nothing worthwhile.

But then they've got just 3 crates (with only 1 or 2 prizes above the bottom tier in each crate) to set up a pattern to the point where I'll notice it, at least subconsciously, and want to buy more crates to continue the pattern. Whilst I'm aware some people will draw quite an elaborate conclusion from just 1 data point (e.g. "my friend got the drop I want while playing a class I hate, obviously ZOS fixed it so bad classes get the best drops to force us to play them so they can say they're all balanced") I think even those people would be hard pressed to spot a pattern in just 3 drops. Especially since it has to be subtle - if it's too obvious the odds are being adjusted each time that may put them off.

Over time it could work, if they kept the same pattern running through all the free promotions (we've had what? 4 of them now, including the one this weekend?). But then you run into cost/benefit issues. Is it really worth setting up and maintaining a machine learning program over 6+ months so that eventually some of your customers might spend a bit more money? (I suppose it depends on how many customers and how much extra money, but I can imagine that being a pretty tough sell to the bosses.)

Especially when they could just go with your first idea - slightly increase the odds of getting good drops from the free crates which would serve much the same purpose with far less effort on their end. They could even set it up so the odds of getting the rarest drops increase each time - so most people will get their best drop/s from the last crate, meaning they're likely to end on a high note and feel more positive about the crates, but will also have plenty of junk items from the first 1-2 to look at trading in, which gets them looking at the crown gem menu and what else they could win if they just keep buying more crates.

Heh, it's kind of amusing to think of ZOS gambling with their own gambling system - trying to work out how many tries and how many prizes they need to give away to increase their profits without going too far and losing potential purchases/customers.

JamilaRaj

Danikat wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

free Crates to get people started

Not sure how is that supposed to work, though. Every time I open a free crate, I thank the Divines that I didn't spend any money on that worthless crud.

Easily. They could dispesne free scam boxes that look like cash shop scam boxes but have different contents or drop rates, i.e. they would let you win some token prizes to make you believe chance of winning is much higher than it actually is (ever heard of shell game?).
But they could also employ machine learning and have AI decide when and what you should win, in order to make you spend for as long as possible. In other words, to adjust yields so that you win neither too much nor too little. For example, based on what mounts or costumes you bought, used, talked about, viewed, it could assemble a list and every once in a while let you win some less desirable prize. Accuracy of its guesses would improve over time and with number of sample (players). For example, if a player bought X, Y and Z and then kept buying scam boxes until he won ultimate prize U, and you also bought X, Y and Z, AI would assume you are after U and make sure it is not in the first $500 worth of scam boxes, but feed you some minor prizes along the way.

A machine learning system like that could be very effective with the regular crown crates but it's almost impossible to make it work when you're talking about a person opening just 3 free crates, and especially when your goal for those 3 tries is to get them to buy more crates. You simply don't have enough tries to work with.

AI would not work with three tries of single player, it would work with histories of all players and their reactions to its incentives. Even if this was a player's first scam crate ever, he would have some history; he did something, used something etc. AI would attempt to determine what kind of player he is, adjust scam crates and offer him incentives it knows worked well with other similar players.
In case of promotional scam crates, it would on one hand prevent well spending gamblers from accidentally winning worthwhile prizes, which could make them stop spending, and on the other hand let prospective gamblers win appropriately useful prizes so they would think: okay, gambling is not that bad - I opened just three scam crates and got X, which is quite useful, now what if I opened thirty?

Danikat wrote: »

ZOS absolutely could get the data - they could match my crown store purchases (and maybe even in-game purchases, forum posts etc.) up to people who have bought crown crates and work out not only the kind of things I'm likely to want but how much I'm likely to spend trying for them before giving up completely. Which is also important - if it's holding back the things I really want until I spend $500 but I only have $100 to spend on this quarters crates all it's doing is making sure I will never get anything I want, and then next time around I'm less likely to spend anything because all I'll remember is spending $100 and getting nothing worthwhile.

AI would eventually learn and manage this type of, say, fixed-sum gamblers (as opposed to gamblers who aim for particular items) better than pure RNG. Also which players it can press and how.

Danikat wrote: »

But then they've got just 3 crates (with only 1 or 2 prizes above the bottom tier in each crate) to set up a pattern to the point where I'll notice it, at least subconsciously, and want to buy more crates to continue the pattern. Whilst I'm aware some people will draw quite an elaborate conclusion from just 1 data point (e.g. "my friend got the drop I want while playing a class I hate, obviously ZOS fixed it so bad classes get the best drops to force us to play them so they can say they're all balanced") I think even those people would be hard pressed to spot a pattern in just 3 drops. Especially since it has to be subtle - if it's too obvious the odds are being adjusted each time that may put them off.

Over time it could work, if they kept the same pattern running through all the free promotions (we've had what? 4 of them now, including the one this weekend?). But then you run into cost/benefit issues. Is it really worth setting up and maintaining a machine learning program over 6+ months so that eventually some of your customers might spend a bit more money? (I suppose it depends on how many customers and how much extra money, but I can imagine that being a pretty tough sell to the bosses.)

Probably yes. They want to know what kinds of players they have, how they behave and what makes them spend anyway, and then design the game around it. So a predatory AI would have a lot of common code with other tools.

Danikat wrote: »

Especially when they could just go with your first idea - slightly increase the odds of getting good drops from the free crates which would serve much the same purpose with far less effort on their end. They could even set it up so the odds of getting the rarest drops increase each time - so most people will get their best drop/s from the last crate, meaning they're likely to end on a high note and feel more positive about the crates, but will also have plenty of junk items from the first 1-2 to look at trading in, which gets them looking at the crown gem menu and what else they could win if they just keep buying more crates.

Heh, it's kind of amusing to think of ZOS gambling with their own gambling system - trying to work out how many tries and how many prizes they need to give away to increase their profits without going too far and losing potential purchases/customers.

craftycarper73

something on twitter todat about ea removing loot boxes

Cadbury

craftycarper73 wrote: »

something on twitter todat about ea removing loot boxes

Links?

Mureel

Storymaster wrote: »

If the selling of crime crates is stopped, is this going to have a negative impact on ESO's regular content schedule that has insofar been nonpareil to any mmorpg out there? That's what I am really concerned about, despite my disgust for crime crates.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

Why don't people get that?

I think calling them crime crates is inflammatory at best.

Urza1234

My only contribution is that no one really cares what Belgium or Hawaii does or says. Still they might be on to something.

Elsonso

Mureel wrote: »

Storymaster wrote: »

If the selling of crime crates is stopped, is this going to have a negative impact on ESO's regular content schedule that has insofar been nonpareil to any mmorpg out there? That's what I am really concerned about, despite my disgust for crime crates.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

Why don't people get that?

But you can have pie, or ice cream, instead.

Kilandros

olivesforge wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Of course, under US laws, definitions are only somewhat relevant, and under federal precedent (i.e nobody cares what Hawaii thinks) digital goods from loot boxes are not “something of value.”

Nothing’s happening, continue your playing.

As an actual RL lawyer I wish you wouldn't throw around terms you clearly don't understand. Also, just FYI, but Federal Courts apply state law all the time. And even if state law isn't binding (i.e., a federal court is not bound to it because they'll be applying federal laws), state rulings are frequently quite influential if there are limited federal rulings on the issue. If I was clerking for a federal judge hearing a novel federal issue (I did in fact clerk for a fed judge out of law school) and there were limited to no federal precedent, I would then look to state precedent.

I wish you guys wouldn't pretend to be armchair lawyers, but alas.