Loot Boxes now becoming Illegal. How does this effect Crown Crates?

BTHRZeroX

Now I while I do not agree with lootboxes some are not bad.

Starwars Battlefront 2 was bad it was pay to win and could be exploited by the compnay

Overwatch its all Cosmetics. Nothing game changing nothing making you feel I need to buy this because the game is punishing me with a 50+ hour grind.

ESO is a mix of both, I mean the Motifs, the Crafting Levels, Riding Levels, the Vamp and WW Bite.

Finding most of those is a grind which is what MMO's do, So do they need to be in the store? I think not.

But the Cosmetic stuff I am fine with that its for looks and does not effect gameplay. One could argue that Motifs are for cosmetics. But they are really sought after and require a grind, not like a wedding dress....

Mystrius_Archaion

Istoppucks wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games.

Unbelievable that we ask the government to step in and help us when we can't solve the problem ourselves.
Do you never ever want the police to ever help you if somebody ever tries to harm you?
Does your internet provider not have a monopoly in your area where they could raise your rates 10 times what they are if they wanted and were not regulated by the government? Mine does.

Government can and does do good things, but nobody ever thinks of them in that way unless they actually feel wronged by somebody.


So yes, I'm all for government regulation of online games when the online game companies prove they can't self-regulate.
So many people claim "you can't control yourselves and stop purchasing crown crates" as the problem with the crown crates but then the developers "can't control themselves when they make crown crates with expensive crap drop rates just to rip people off". Both sides are wrong with the one side being completely non-existent without the other, meaning nobody would be "unable to stop buying" if there wasn't something they shouldn't be buying but can.

Mystrius_Archaion

BTHRZeroX wrote: »

Now I while I do not agree with lootboxes some are not bad.

Starwars Battlefront 2 was bad it was pay to win and could be exploited by the compnay

Overwatch its all Cosmetics. Nothing game changing nothing making you feel I need to buy this because the game is punishing me with a 50+ hour grind.

ESO is a mix of both, I mean the Motifs, the Crafting Levels, Riding Levels, the Vamp and WW Bite.

Finding most of those is a grind which is what MMO's do, So do they need to be in the store? I think not.

But the Cosmetic stuff I am fine with that its for looks and does not effect gameplay. One could argue that Motifs are for cosmetics. But they are really sought after and require a grind, not like a wedding dress....

The only good lootbox is a lootbox with a direct purchase option completely separate for all items.

Gambling is gambling so long as money is being thrown at something for any sort of random return.

See previous pages for my citation of gambling rules versus this game's age limit. Summary: This game is rated 17 and up in the US, 16 in Europe, and gambling is no lower than 18 in the US with many states at 21.
If they look at the lootboxes just from that they will be declared illegal unless they can reliably guarantee nobody under the age of 21 can play the game, or they will have to remove the mandatory randomness and allow direct purchase.

MinarasLaure

That's great news

Mefit

Doubtful Zenimax will have any issue .
Robert Trump sits on Zenimax board of Directors , he is the brother of United States Of America’s President Donald Trump .

It’s doubtful that Zenimax would ever be stopped from seeing Crown Boxes .

Streega

I just leave it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html

Turelus

Streega wrote: »

I just leave it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html

Interesting. Meanwhile in the UK... *crickets*

JWKe

At the end of the day if folks are skipping out on paying rent and instead buying these crates THEY have a problem. Even with regulation when it comes to gambling or alchohol folks still spend recklessly on those things. An addicition is an addiction.

Easily_Lost

Oh no, please do complain when those loot boxes are gone and those apex mounts and motifs cost around 50,000 to 60,000 Crowns or more.. Be careful what you ask for.

Turelus

JWKe wrote: »

At the end of the day if folks are skipping out on paying rent and instead buying these crates THEY have a problem. Even with regulation when it comes to gambling or alchohol folks still spend recklessly on those things. An addicition is an addiction.

That's very true. However we have gambling laws because there are some people who do have problems and companies would exploit them if they could. The same would be the end goal here, if companies are not able to stop themselves exploiting weaker willed individuals then someone has to step in and tell them no.

Charliff1966

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

knaveofengland

myself will never buy what i cant see , sorry eso but i like to see the meal iam buying before i eat it .

Juju_beans

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games.

Unbelievable that we ask the government to step in and help us when we can't solve the problem ourselves.
Do you never ever want the police to ever help you if somebody ever tries to harm you?
Does your internet provider not have a monopoly in your area where they could raise your rates 10 times what they are if they wanted and were not regulated by the government? Mine does.

Government can and does do good things, but nobody ever thinks of them in that way unless they actually feel wronged by somebody.


So yes, I'm all for government regulation of online games when the online game companies prove they can't self-regulate.
So many people claim "you can't control yourselves and stop purchasing crown crates" as the problem with the crown crates but then the developers "can't control themselves when they make crown crates with expensive crap drop rates just to rip people off". Both sides are wrong with the one side being completely non-existent without the other, meaning nobody would be "unable to stop buying" if there wasn't something they shouldn't be buying but can.

So because you cannot stop yourself from spending money you want the government to intervene on your behalf ?

Seems to me the "self regulation" is solely on the player here. No one is forced to buy loot boxes to play the game.

Juju_beans

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

With loot boxes becoming illegal in Belgium, the U.S. now looking into it, and Europe could we finally get rid of the Crown Crates system that is now becoming illegal in some nations?

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

Loot boxes aren't "real" though. Virtual cosmetics..pixels.

Charliff1966

Turelus wrote: »

JWKe wrote: »

At the end of the day if folks are skipping out on paying rent and instead buying these crates THEY have a problem. Even with regulation when it comes to gambling or alchohol folks still spend recklessly on those things. An addicition is an addiction.

That's very true. However we have gambling laws because there are some people who do have problems and companies would exploit them if they could. The same would be the end goal here, if companies are not able to stop themselves exploiting weaker willed individuals then someone has to step in and tell them no.

Dont play a game with lootboxes if you cant control your spending.

JWKe

Easily_Lost wrote: »

Oh no, please do complain when those loot boxes are gone and those apex mounts and motifs cost around 50,000 to 60,000 Crowns or more.. Be careful what you ask for.

Nah we won’t even have radiant apexes when crates are gone. When crates are gone it’ll be just like before the crates came around - bland, as well as tons of time duration mount sales.

Darkmage1337

olivesforge wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Of course, under US laws, definitions are only somewhat relevant, and under federal precedent (i.e nobody cares what Hawaii thinks) digital goods from loot boxes are not “something of value.”

Nothing’s happening, continue your playing.

"Value" is in the eyes of the beholder.
Same goes for "Beauty."

Both are subjective. Anyone can deem anything "valuable."

EDIT: Florida Gulf Coast University's definition of value:
Value: benefits received minus the cost of obtaining those benefits. That's the business 101 equation.
Virtual goods do provide a 'benefit' whether it is pay-to-win or 'convenience items' or even purely aesthetics/cosmetics items/goods.
All each have their own benefits to whomever considers them beneficial.

pdebie64b16_ESO

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

Until its in your country right? abit short-sighted dont you think?

Charliff1966

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

Until its in your country right? abit short-sighted dont you think?

Whats cheaper for a company? Remove crates or block countries. Me? Its a game, block ESO and i find something else to do.

xeNNNNN

BTHRZeroX wrote: »

Now I while I do not agree with lootboxes some are not bad.

Starwars Battlefront 2 was bad it was pay to win and could be exploited by the compnay

Overwatch its all Cosmetics. Nothing game changing nothing making you feel I need to buy this because the game is punishing me with a 50+ hour grind.

ESO is a mix of both, I mean the Motifs, the Crafting Levels, Riding Levels, the Vamp and WW Bite.

Finding most of those is a grind which is what MMO's do, So do they need to be in the store? I think not.

But the Cosmetic stuff I am fine with that its for looks and does not effect gameplay. One could argue that Motifs are for cosmetics. But they are really sought after and require a grind, not like a wedding dress....

Yes but thats just you and as for overwatch, that falls apart during every event because those events provided limited time only skins which automatically encourage people of all ages too spend money on those boxes.

A vast majority of people do not have the time too play as much as they want to, too even attempt to get the skins they want so what do they have to do? spend money. If they want them of course. They could say no and resist...but part of the reason overwatches success is the visual side of things, using events to push peoples impulsive spending behaviour is very much predatory. Normal for business but when kids are involved its just kinda sick tbh.

TankinatorFR

On Overwatch, the price of "limited time" object is divided by three on their second apparition, one year later.
Of course, you still need to wait for a year if you don't play a lot and are not lucky, but that's still better than most other games, including ESO.
That's one more way to get access to things without paying or playing a lot.
Of course, if you can't imagine waiting for things and want everything immediately, that is not an option, but then your comportment will not only be a problem when facing gambling in video-games, but also for most things in life...
Overwatch's paid crates are Pay2Fast on something useless.

On ESO, not only are we unable to obtain some things from the crown crates with gems, but also are we unable to predict when (if) their content will be available again. But we do know that is will most probably not be cheaper than it is now, and also that it will not be obtained just by playing anyway, sooner or later.
That is a completely different level, I believe.

Turelus

Charliff1966 wrote: »

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

Until its in your country right? abit short-sighted dont you think?

Whats cheaper for a company? Remove crates or block countries. Me? Its a game, block ESO and i find something else to do.

It might be cheaper, but I don't think ZOS wants or needs the PR hit for "stopping services in EU countries in order to keep loot boxes" I think it it came to the choice they would just stop crates and find new means to get the income.

xbobx

Easily_Lost wrote: »

Oh no, please do complain when those loot boxes are gone and those apex mounts and motifs cost around 50,000 to 60,000 Crowns or more.. Be careful what you ask for.

you cant actually believe that do you?

i suggest you take a few courses in economics and business.

Merlin13KAGL

Charliff1966 wrote: »

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

Until its in your country right? abit short-sighted dont you think?

Whats cheaper for a company? Remove crates or block countries. Me? Its a game, block ESO and i find something else to do.

What's cheaper is none of the above.

Simply change the ToS and require understanding and agreement that you are not in one of the 'banned' locales.

This takes it off of the publisher and places it squarely on the user.

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

JWKe wrote: »

At the end of the day if folks are skipping out on paying rent and instead buying these crates THEY have a problem. Even with regulation when it comes to gambling or alchohol folks still spend recklessly on those things. An addicition is an addiction.

That's very true. However we have gambling laws because there are some people who do have problems and companies would exploit them if they could. The same would be the end goal here, if companies are not able to stop themselves exploiting weaker willed individuals then someone has to step in and tell them no.

Dont play a game with lootboxes if you cant control your spending.

May as well tell a gambling addict to simply walk past the slot machines on the way to the buffet.

Regulation is intended to keep both side honest and safe. That seems to be the part most people miss.

There is absolutely nothing, other than the publisher's 'word' that the 'payout' from crates even works, let alone to a certain degree.

Short version: If everything being implemented is legitimate, there's nothing for anyone on either side to be concerned about.

Istoppucks

xbobx wrote: »

Easily_Lost wrote: »

Oh no, please do complain when those loot boxes are gone and those apex mounts and motifs cost around 50,000 to 60,000 Crowns or more.. Be careful what you ask for.

you cant actually believe that do you?

i suggest you take a few courses in economics and business.

So you think if the video game industry especially f2p games lose a source of revenue they wont raise the price elsewhere? Not sure what economics or business class you took but you missed a lot.

Istoppucks

Turelus wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Just stop selling the game in those countries and find a way to block people being able to play the game. Problem solved.

Until its in your country right? abit short-sighted dont you think?

Whats cheaper for a company? Remove crates or block countries. Me? Its a game, block ESO and i find something else to do.

It might be cheaper, but I don't think ZOS wants or needs the PR hit for "stopping services in EU countries in order to keep loot boxes" I think it it came to the choice they would just stop crates and find new means to get the income.

Most EU countries have determined loot boxes like ESO has are NOT gambling and the two countries who have ruled against loot boxes are targeting games where the items can be sold for real money. Come on these facts are well known lets stop with the doom and gloom already.

The population of these two countries is minuscule and game compaines would have no problem either leaving these countries or removing loot boxes just from those countries.

Elsonso

xbobx wrote: »

Easily_Lost wrote: »

Oh no, please do complain when those loot boxes are gone and those apex mounts and motifs cost around 50,000 to 60,000 Crowns or more.. Be careful what you ask for.

you cant actually believe that do you?

i suggest you take a few courses in economics and business.

Would they sell those things outright for 50k? No, as you suggest. This is why the boxes are here to stay. It is the only way to sell certain mounts for 10's of thousands of Crowns.

Mystrius_Archaion

Streega wrote: »

I just leave it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html

OOOH! This story I like and hadn't heard. My own state is listed there even. NICE!
Now we just need the state ZOS headquarters is in to do something about this and they will have a much bigger reason to fear.

Mystrius_Archaion

JWKe wrote: »

At the end of the day if folks are skipping out on paying rent and instead buying these crates THEY have a problem. Even with regulation when it comes to gambling or alchohol folks still spend recklessly on those things. An addicition is an addiction.

Except that those establishment are inclined to set limits on their customers. I've heard of plenty of times a heavy drinking person at a bar was told they couldn't have another, well before they stopped serving drinks to everybody else, because they were too plastered.
There are also programs to support those addicts and try to get them to resist their addictions, which happen to be forced to be covered by insurance and make our premiums go up thanks to Obamacare and be bad for the game industry image and revenue.

Not to mention, if an addiction is common enough and damaging enough to health or finances then the industry feeding the addiction can be targeted and fined severely for neglecting to do everything in its power to prevent that harm to its customers.
This happened most notably with the tobacco industry being fined severely for marketing to children and not placing warnings on products to the point where they are now required to support anti-smoking ads which hurt their revenue while also increasing their costs.

Game companies are in the unique position though where their product is not the problem, like tobacco is, and that their delivery method of certain parts of it is. They're not selling gambling as the only option; they're selling content that doesn't need to be gambled on.
This makes game companies both more flexible in potentially avoiding legal trouble and much more guilty of exploitation when other less obviously corrupt methods exist.

They are really pushing the boundaries and the boundaries to the point of the backlash being quite severe if they don't ease back themselves.

Mystrius_Archaion

Juju_beans wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games.

Unbelievable that we ask the government to step in and help us when we can't solve the problem ourselves.
Do you never ever want the police to ever help you if somebody ever tries to harm you?
Does your internet provider not have a monopoly in your area where they could raise your rates 10 times what they are if they wanted and were not regulated by the government? Mine does.

Government can and does do good things, but nobody ever thinks of them in that way unless they actually feel wronged by somebody.


So yes, I'm all for government regulation of online games when the online game companies prove they can't self-regulate.
So many people claim "you can't control yourselves and stop purchasing crown crates" as the problem with the crown crates but then the developers "can't control themselves when they make crown crates with expensive crap drop rates just to rip people off". Both sides are wrong with the one side being completely non-existent without the other, meaning nobody would be "unable to stop buying" if there wasn't something they shouldn't be buying but can.

So because you cannot stop yourself from spending money you want the government to intervene on your behalf ?

Seems to me the "self regulation" is solely on the player here. No one is forced to buy loot boxes to play the game.

So the people born mentally handicapped who escape into a game where they can do things they could never do in real life and are vulnerable to being exploited because they definitely do not have that mental capacity to recognize these things are completely screwed because they can't help themselves?


Gambling and tobacco and alcohol and hard drugs like opiods and obesity and everything are all capable of being stopped by self-regulation, but they aren't stopped. They continue on being all too common.
You give people to much credit, yourself included. I bet you have an addiction you will likely not admit to and certainly would be very hard to break. Everyone has something they have a very hard time saying no to and regret not saying no. Everyone unless they're lying which is also a character flaw that they can't stop just like an addiction.

I keep saying it. This is a battle against either human nature itself or those that exploit human nature. Which is easier to fight? Is it the humans and their nature that they may not even realize they are acting upon and can't fight or the ones who know they are exploiting it but don't have to so they can be stopped if they are encouraged to do so?
That's the reason for most laws.