Loot Boxes now becoming Illegal. How does this effect Crown Crates?

Zamuro

*** lootboxes in every game they are cancer. simple as that

Slick_007

Raideen wrote: »

Not only are loot boxes predatory and designed to be, but games (and this is extremely obvious in ESO to anyone with a design background) that employ cash shops are designed to funnel you to their store on a consistent basis to spend money. This game nickel and dimes you every time you turn around, especially if you are a person who plays MMORPG's to collect, role play, or dress up your character. A fine example of this is the price of outfit slots, the fact they are for one character only and then the cost to create outfits which is extremely expensive in gold. The issue is none of this is promoted when the game is purchased, none of this is talked about when you subscribe, its just something you find out as you go along. The design of the game is very close to bait and switch. Bait the idea of an MMORPG with the purchase, but do not use any disclaimers to addess that the R in RPG can mostly be had only through crown purchases. The fact that the vast majority of mounts, costumes, and NPC pets can only be had with crowns is disgusting. It is not mentioned anywhere that the vast majority of these items do not exist in game, not as drops, not for gold.

you are complaining about the crown store and straight out purchases, which isnt even the topic here. Nice way to show that your side doesnt have an argument.

Raideen

Slick_007 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Not only are loot boxes predatory and designed to be, but games (and this is extremely obvious in ESO to anyone with a design background) that employ cash shops are designed to funnel you to their store on a consistent basis to spend money. This game nickel and dimes you every time you turn around, especially if you are a person who plays MMORPG's to collect, role play, or dress up your character. A fine example of this is the price of outfit slots, the fact they are for one character only and then the cost to create outfits which is extremely expensive in gold. The issue is none of this is promoted when the game is purchased, none of this is talked about when you subscribe, its just something you find out as you go along. The design of the game is very close to bait and switch. Bait the idea of an MMORPG with the purchase, but do not use any disclaimers to addess that the R in RPG can mostly be had only through crown purchases. The fact that the vast majority of mounts, costumes, and NPC pets can only be had with crowns is disgusting. It is not mentioned anywhere that the vast majority of these items do not exist in game, not as drops, not for gold.

you are complaining about the crown store and straight out purchases, which isnt even the topic here. Nice way to show that your side doesnt have an argument.

You are incorrect.

I simply added additional reasoning as to why this stuff is predatory and borderline illegal. And in fact "our side" (the side of the consumers) have extremely valid points.

Why do you shill so hard for ZoS? Honest question. You belittle anyone who has an opinion against their practices and I find it odd that you have not yet been banned for your constant harassment of others on the forums.

casinoguy

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

With loot boxes becoming illegal in Belgium, the U.S. now looking into it, and Europe could we finally get rid of the Crown Crates system that is now becoming illegal in some nations?

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03EY02y2WE

Actually there is no US definition of gambling, its state by state but most states use this simple test:

1. Prize - Is there a prize
2. Chance - Is it based on an outcome of chance
3. Consideration - Are you risking something of value

In the State of Washington, there is currently a bill in the legislature to study if loot boxes are gambling. The Washington State Gambling Commission has come out publicly already that the trading of skins in certain shooters is in fact gambling and therefore illegal.

The word is getting out there, all it will take is one State Attorney General to come and say its gambling and illegal and then file suit against one or more gaming companies. This is exactly what happened to Fan Duel and Draft Kings.

Hokiewa

casinoguy wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

With loot boxes becoming illegal in Belgium, the U.S. now looking into it, and Europe could we finally get rid of the Crown Crates system that is now becoming illegal in some nations?

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03EY02y2WE

Actually there is no US definition of gambling, its state by state but most states use this simple test:

1. Prize - Is there a prize
2. Chance - Is it based on an outcome of chance
3. Consideration - Are you risking something of value

In the State of Washington, there is currently a bill in the legislature to study if loot boxes are gambling. The Washington State Gambling Commission has come out publicly already that the trading of skins in certain shooters is in fact gambling and therefore illegal.

The word is getting out there, all it will take is one State Attorney General to come and say its gambling and illegal and then file suit against one or more gaming companies. This is exactly what happened to Fan Duel and Draft Kings.

Except it's not that simple. Cases in this country regarding loot boxes have already gone before general district court and appealed to circuit court. Circuit courts have consistently ruled that "Loot boxes" are not a form of gambling because there is no implicit risk. You pay money, you buy coins, gems, whatever the currency is. You then use that form of in-game currency to purchase a box of random loot. That step right there has halted any claims of gambling all over the world (this bypasses the consideration issue because you have already obtained the product (crowns) for the exchange of money). In the cases where the judiciary has ignored that premise, they then found that there is not an inherent risk because every crate "rewards" products.

US Gambling Law is even more clear on why crown crates are not considered gambling. You fail to mention several things regarding "anything of value". First, that phrase is not dependent upon the individual, it's dependent on the collective of people participating. Digital products are not real and have NO monetary value as defined by the EULA, which every gaming company has. These EULAs, particularly the portion regarding that the consumer does not own the digital rights to the product and that digital assets in game have no value have been upheld on every legal challenge.

Also, there is no risk. Even you ignore the tertiary purchase aspect, you are still receiving goods for your cash. The value you place on the goods you receive is entirely subjective and no court would ever pick and choose the prizes based upon individual perceived value.

Regardless, in the unlikely event some state passes a law banning games with loot boxes, it will be challenged immediately and rapidly overturned, as it has be done in at least a dozen times in the past. Probably won't even get that far because the legislators know this.

Oh, and the Washinton State Gambling Commission has not come out publicly in any regard about this issue. They have been commissioned to study it and release a report by 12/1/18. There is no bill, it is just a study. RIF. The comparison to FanDuel and Draft Kings doesn't pass the logic test. Those sites, you wager money and you either win or lose. Crown crates you are purchasing a random lot of digital goods that are not transferable and have no value.

Hokiewa

Raideen wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Not only are loot boxes predatory and designed to be, but games (and this is extremely obvious in ESO to anyone with a design background) that employ cash shops are designed to funnel you to their store on a consistent basis to spend money. This game nickel and dimes you every time you turn around, especially if you are a person who plays MMORPG's to collect, role play, or dress up your character. A fine example of this is the price of outfit slots, the fact they are for one character only and then the cost to create outfits which is extremely expensive in gold. The issue is none of this is promoted when the game is purchased, none of this is talked about when you subscribe, its just something you find out as you go along. The design of the game is very close to bait and switch. Bait the idea of an MMORPG with the purchase, but do not use any disclaimers to addess that the R in RPG can mostly be had only through crown purchases. The fact that the vast majority of mounts, costumes, and NPC pets can only be had with crowns is disgusting. It is not mentioned anywhere that the vast majority of these items do not exist in game, not as drops, not for gold.

you are complaining about the crown store and straight out purchases, which isnt even the topic here. Nice way to show that your side doesnt have an argument.

You are incorrect.

I simply added additional reasoning as to why this stuff is predatory and borderline illegal. And in fact "our side" (the side of the consumers) have extremely valid points.

Why do you shill so hard for ZoS? Honest question. You belittle anyone who has an opinion against their practices and I find it odd that you have not yet been banned for your constant harassment of others on the forums.

So anybody that disagrees with your opinion (which you push hard for) is a shill for Zos? Do you honestly believe this? As far as harassment and belittling is concerned, you do your fair share of it to anyone that disagrees with you. Or lol, you constantly accuse them of working for ZOS. It is amusing reading your posts though so I thank you for the entertainment.

Coolits

The ESRB has responded to external pressure and is implementing a new box label system in an attempt to look proactive and steer the conversation away from lootboxes which is the real issue.

If there was any doubt, this only goes to show who's interests the ESRB have in mind and its not the consumer.

casinoguy

Hokiewa wrote: »

casinoguy wrote: »

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

With loot boxes becoming illegal in Belgium, the U.S. now looking into it, and Europe could we finally get rid of the Crown Crates system that is now becoming illegal in some nations?

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
Anything of Value Law and Legal Definition
Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.

i. a work of art, antique, or collectible;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03EY02y2WE

Actually there is no US definition of gambling, its state by state but most states use this simple test:

1. Prize - Is there a prize
2. Chance - Is it based on an outcome of chance
3. Consideration - Are you risking something of value

In the State of Washington, there is currently a bill in the legislature to study if loot boxes are gambling. The Washington State Gambling Commission has come out publicly already that the trading of skins in certain shooters is in fact gambling and therefore illegal.

The word is getting out there, all it will take is one State Attorney General to come and say its gambling and illegal and then file suit against one or more gaming companies. This is exactly what happened to Fan Duel and Draft Kings.

Except it's not that simple. Cases in this country regarding loot boxes have already gone before general district court and appealed to circuit court. Circuit courts have consistently ruled that "Loot boxes" are not a form of gambling because there is no implicit risk. You pay money, you buy coins, gems, whatever the currency is. You then use that form of in-game currency to purchase a box of random loot. That step right there has halted any claims of gambling all over the world (this bypasses the consideration issue because you have already obtained the product (crowns) for the exchange of money). In the cases where the judiciary has ignored that premise, they then found that there is not an inherent risk because every crate "rewards" products.

US Gambling Law is even more clear on why crown crates are not considered gambling. You fail to mention several things regarding "anything of value". First, that phrase is not dependent upon the individual, it's dependent on the collective of people participating. Digital products are not real and have NO monetary value as defined by the EULA, which every gaming company has. These EULAs, particularly the portion regarding that the consumer does not own the digital rights to the product and that digital assets in game have no value have been upheld on every legal challenge.

Also, there is no risk. Even you ignore the tertiary purchase aspect, you are still receiving goods for your cash. The value you place on the goods you receive is entirely subjective and no court would ever pick and choose the prizes based upon individual perceived value.

Regardless, in the unlikely event some state passes a law banning games with loot boxes, it will be challenged immediately and rapidly overturned, as it has be done in at least a dozen times in the past. Probably won't even get that far because the legislators know this.

Oh, and the Washinton State Gambling Commission has not come out publicly in any regard about this issue. They have been commissioned to study it and release a report by 12/1/18. There is no bill, it is just a study. RIF. The comparison to FanDuel and Draft Kings doesn't pass the logic test. Those sites, you wager money and you either win or lose. Crown crates you are purchasing a random lot of digital goods that are not transferable and have no value.

I never said that the Washington State Gambling Commission came out publicly about loot boxes. I said that they came out publicly about the skins in shooters. Valve also backed down in this case.

http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/17723033/washington-state-gambling-commission-orders-valve-stop-skins-gambling

My point with this was to show that video game digital goods are on the radar with State regulators.

As far as the comparison to Fan Duel and Draft Kings, it shows that the definition of gambling can vary from state to state.

I am not an attorney nor do I really care either way, I have purchased many loot boxes. I have worked in the Gambling Regulation business for close to 30 years and I love video games so I am interested in how this plays out.

Here is a link to the article about Washington State and loot box regulation

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/01/the-legislative-fight-over-loot-boxes-expands-to-washington-state/

Stopnaggin

sheepdog2142_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

From what I can tell they are now going after any game of chance. Also they are now targeting it because it allows people under the age of 21 to gamble. The developer also does need to pay a for a gambling licences and raise the games age to 21.

Definition of Gambling for US Law:
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Does that mean the little machines that drop a chance item for a quarter are going to be regulated? Same principle as the crates, you are guaranteed something for that quarter, maybe not what you wanted but still something.

I'm an adult. I have the ability to decide for myself what I spend my money on. I don't need the government telling me how to spend my money. I also don't need a new law because some people have an addiction problem, as sad as that is for them. Should we outlaw alcohol becaused of alcoholics? Forcing things on people because of possible problems from a small percentage of the population isn't a solution.

I buy crates when I feel like it. Some people don't buy them at all because of different reasons. That's all fine, but its not fine to infringe on my rights because others don't like it.

casinoguy

Lunaugh wrote: »

Worth looking into for this discussion is the different gambling laws for video slot machines. In Texas, Video machines are regulated under seperate laws, as they pay out in a different fashion. They still operate on the same process as a slot machine (put money in, spin some wheels, potential to earn store credit).
Seeing as what is gambled on for crown crates is not something you can hold, exchange or re-sell, it may not be included in the gambling laws.

Slot machines along with almost every type of gambling in Texas is illegal. Aside from Hawaii and Utah, Texas law is one of the strictest states in the US. However, there are certain counties/cities in Texas where they turn a blind eye. Eight line video machines are a perfect example of that. They are found in small backroom businesses but don't go out of their way to hide it. San Antonio finally decided to start cracking down on them.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/9-underground-gambling-establishments-discovered-8380513.php&cmpid=artem

Yzalirk

I know this has been stated but yes, Crown Crates are indeed a gambling system. You can dress it up any way you like but the fact of the matter is you are spending money in a game of chance. Pretty much everything in a Crown Crate is exclusive so you have to bet on luck to get what you want. To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

Elsonso

Yzalirk wrote: »

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

When it comes to Crowns, which come from real money, I would much rather purchase what is in the Crown Crates directly, instead of playing some game of chance to get it.

ZOS and Bethesda just never seem satisfied. Their appetite for cash seems insatiable. In the end, the "leave no money on the table" gig wears a person down, though.

Yzalirk

lordrichter wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

When it comes to Crowns, which come from real money, I would much rather purchase what is in the Crown Crates directly, instead of playing some game of chance to get it.

Exactly. It is a more honest deal because you know exactly what you are paying for rather than sleazy Loot Crates where your rewards are determined in an algorithm.

ZOS needs to understand that if they add Crown Crate items in the Crown Store, more people will invest money into the game.

Stopnaggin

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Yzalirk

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

TelvanniWizard

Yes, paying money for the chance of winning anything (instead of buying directly that ítem) is gambling. Plainly.

Easily_Lost

I have a solution to Crown Crates. Put the high end rewords directly into the Crown Store at 10,000 Crowns. Now you have no reason to *** about it.
Oh now it's too expensive. Oh yeah, some people are never satisfied unless things are cheap or free.

Coolits

Easily_Lost wrote: »

I have a solution to Crown Crates. Put the high end rewords directly into the Crown Store at 10,000 Crowns. Now you have no reason to *** about it.
Oh now it's too expensive. Oh yeah, some people are never satisfied unless things are cheap or free.

This would be far more acceptable and less exploitative than crown crates as you would know exactly what you're getting and as a result make an informed decision whether to purchase or not.

Elsonso

.

Coolits wrote: »

Easily_Lost wrote: »

I have a solution to Crown Crates. Put the high end rewords directly into the Crown Store at 10,000 Crowns. Now you have no reason to *** about it.
Oh now it's too expensive. Oh yeah, some people are never satisfied unless things are cheap or free.

This would be far more acceptable and less exploitative than crown crates as you would know exactly what you're getting and as a result make an informed decision whether to purchase or not.

A lot cheaper than the Radiant Apex mounts, too!

Stopnaggin

Yzalirk wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

Your argument was about children buying things. Then it was about you buying, not children. So which is it? Are we defending the children now? Or is it that you don't like the boxes yourself?

The argument isn't whether I'd like to buy x from the store or chance for x from a box. If I can afford to buy crates and there are items in there I want, I will. The fact that people want the government to step in and take away other people rights is the issue. You want to change something because you dont like it. That's all fine and dandy. I prefer to have a choice in the matter. You know that thing called freedom.

Just because you and others dont like them doesn't mean my right to buy them should be reduced. The morality issue is bunk, how many social warriors on here are out there trying to save our kids? How many are donating their time to say a cancer hospitable or a big brother big sister program? No you are campaigning against something that you dont like and it has nothing to do with kids or addicts. If it was you would soap box against casinos, lotteries, horse tracks and any other form of gambling. Even those little qaurter machines in grocery stores.

Whether I like the boxes or not, its a choice that I make. I would rather have a choice than not. Its not all that hard. If you dont like them don't buy them. Just don't act like this is some social crusade for the kids. My kids are not your responsibility, they are mine to raise. I dont need the govt or anyone else telling me how to raise them. If you have kids then you can raise them as you see fit, you dont need some politician telling you what is in your best interest. Freedom of choice, what you do with it is up to you, buts its not up to you to tell others what their choice should be.

Yzalirk

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

Your argument was about children buying things. Then it was about you buying, not children. So which is it? Are we defending the children now? Or is it that you don't like the boxes yourself?

The argument isn't whether I'd like to buy x from the store or chance for x from a box. If I can afford to buy crates and there are items in there I want, I will. The fact that people want the government to step in and take away other people rights is the issue. You want to change something because you dont like it. That's all fine and dandy. I prefer to have a choice in the matter. You know that thing called freedom.

Just because you and others dont like them doesn't mean my right to buy them should be reduced. The morality issue is bunk, how many social warriors on here are out there trying to save our kids? How many are donating their time to say a cancer hospitable or a big brother big sister program? No you are campaigning against something that you dont like and it has nothing to do with kids or addicts. If it was you would soap box against casinos, lotteries, horse tracks and any other form of gambling. Even those little qaurter machines in grocery stores.

Whether I like the boxes or not, its a choice that I make. I would rather have a choice than not. Its not all that hard. If you dont like them don't buy them. Just don't act like this is some social crusade for the kids. My kids are not your responsibility, they are mine to raise. I dont need the govt or anyone else telling me how to raise them. If you have kids then you can raise them as you see fit, you dont need some politician telling you what is in your best interest. Freedom of choice, what you do with it is up to you, buts its not up to you to tell others what their choice should be.

I made a general synopsis about ESO having a gambling system in place. I then proceeded to state examples. Then I stated my opinion on the matter with a reasonable compromise. Do you not understand what an argument is?

You really did not answer my hypothetical, typical. You are vague when you say “the government.” What government? What country? What state? Since I live in the United States, I will use that. In most states, the required age to legally gamble at casinos is between 18 and 21. This varies because of casino policies. ESO is advertised for ages 17+ but not all players fall in that category. The game has Crown Crates which is a gambling system. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable or exclusive. This option is available to all players, even if they are a minor. So yes, the federal government has every right to step in. The ESRB has no regulation on video game gambling nor do they intend to have one because it is an exploitive cash cow. Imagine how much of a mess it would be if all state governments had to enact their own separate laws.

Those examples you provided are already regulated, excluding grocery quarter machines, whatever the hell those are. You have to provide a valid ID in order to participate in those. As for video games, you do not need to.

Since when did this come to be about you and your children? That is rather hypocritical of you to claim that I made it all about me then you proceed to talk about you and your children... twice.

JKorr

Easily_Lost wrote: »

I have a solution to Crown Crates. Put the high end rewords directly into the Crown Store at 10,000 Crowns. Now you have no reason to *** about it.
Oh now it's too expensive. Oh yeah, some people are never satisfied unless things are cheap or free.

Actually I would be okay with that. Set a price, and I can decide if I want the item badly enough to pay for it. Keep the item or items in the rngesus boxes, and I won't even consider buying. Look for the threads from the people who really wanted one of the radiant apex mounts. One poster spent over a thousand dollars and didn't get one, let alone the one he wanted. A set price whatever it might be to get the specific item you want, versus the "cheap" rngesus boxes where you get many items you don't want and a small chance of maybe getting the one you do.

I can only speak for myself; considering I've been subbed since early access, and pay for the game when I don't have to, used my crowns to buy the dlc, and buy crowns in addition when I want a limited time item, or want to gift items to friends, I don't have any issues paying for things I consider worth it.

jaws343

Yzalirk wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Yzalirk

jaws343 wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Crowns are a middle man just like how Chips are.

Elsonso

jaws343 wrote: »

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Literally, no real money is directly exchanged with them for a Crown Crate. This much is true. However, you cannot purchase a Crown Crate in any currency other than Crowns. Crowns are obtained in exchange for real currency, either purchased directly by some party, or as part of an ESO Plus purchase. There is no normal way to purchase Crown Crates without real world money being involved. Maybe that presents a legal loophole, but it is good enough for me. Eventually, laws will catch up.

Now, if they want to offer Crown Crates for gold, or Tel Var, or Alliance Points earned in the game, that is a different story.

jaws343

Yzalirk wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

To think that only adults play ESO is completely asinine and flat out ignorant. If a child is determined to get that super rare whatever, chances are they will spend what it takes to get what they want. Same thing applies to adults and casinos - they will bet X amount of money to win big. In this case, it is cosmetic items in a video game.

In my opinion, I think that these Loot Boxes need to go. This applies to all games, not just ESO. I would much prefer to buy the specific items I want up front in the Crown Store, no BS.

And you destroy your own argument. First its about children, then its you who want to buy directly from the store. If as you say children will find a way to get them, adding them to the store is not going to stop them either.

Aside from the so called morality argument, you can not take away peoples rights. Just because one person finds something to be bad doesn't make it so. How would you like the government to tell you that you are not allowed to have a cheeseburger because you are over weight? No more alcohol because it may effect someone else? Lets all stop playing the pity card with children and addicts, this has never been about them, it's always about the individual. Parents need to be parents, this is not ZOS's or your job to tackle.

Explain how I “destroy my argument.” Please, I am very curious.

Let me ask you this - would you rather spend $5 for something you specifically want up front, no catches, or would you rather spend $50+ for a slight chance to get that item you want?

Your argument there is completely irrelevant and could not be further from the topic at hand. If I am the only one who finds it a problem, then how come many other people are speaking up against it? Why are governments looking into it? Why are these big wig corporate types getting intimidated? Loot Crates are a type of gambling. You pay money to take a chance at getting something valuable. This applies to Crown Crates. One person can spend less than the other to get an Apex Mount as the rewards are determined by an algorithm.

So please, do not sit there trying to defend something you cannot.

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Crowns are a middle man just like how Chips are.

Not exactly. Chips are directly exchangeble for real money. They have a value that is tangible in the real world. Crowns cannot be exchanged for cash and the items that crowns purchase cannot be exchanged for cash. Once you buy crowns, they are only useful for buying crown store items and nothing else.

jaws343

lordrichter wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Literally, no real money is directly exchanged with them for a Crown Crate. This much is true. However, you cannot purchase a Crown Crate in any currency other than Crowns. Crowns are obtained in exchange for real currency, either purchased directly by some party, or as part of an ESO Plus purchase. There is no normal way to purchase Crown Crates without real world money being involved. Maybe that presents a legal loophole, but it is good enough for me. Eventually, laws will catch up.

Now, if they want to offer Crown Crates for gold, or Tel Var, or Alliance Points earned in the game, that is a different story.

"Good enough for you." Why do you care? How does this effect you in any way? Has someone forced you to purchase crowns and then use those crowns to buy crown crates? If the answer is no, then let others spend their money in whatever way they please.

The whole argument for making them illegal sounds like entitled whining across the board. They are cosmetic items, get over it. Buy crowns and attempt to get them or move on. It is the least important thing to worry about.

Yzalirk

lordrichter wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Now, if they want to offer Crown Crates for gold, or Tel Var, or Alliance Points earned in the game, that is a different story.

I actually think something like that would be a good idea. They should be earned through actually playing the game, like Overwatch. Yes, I am aware that they offer Loot Crates for real life money as an alternative as well. Maybe by completing daily challenges you can get them as a reward.

TelvanniWizard

Yzalirk wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Actually, that is false. Not a single dime is paid in exchange for a Crown Crate. You actually pay for Crowns, which can then be used to exchange for in game things like dlc, mounts, homes, and yes Crown Crates. It is an important distinction, because there is no money exchange for Crown Crates. You bought crowns, which are essentially a worthless currency, and decided to use that worthless currency to purchase a Crown Crate. It's like buying tickets at a carnival, that are only good at that carnival, and then complaining when you spent those worthless tickets on games of chance for a prize instead of a hotdog (also not illegal and highly targeted at children).

Now, if they want to offer Crown Crates for gold, or Tel Var, or Alliance Points earned in the game, that is a different story.

I actually think something like that would be a good idea. They should be earned through actually playing the game, like Overwatch. Yes, I am aware that they offer Loot Crates for real life money as an alternative as well. Maybe by completing daily challenges you can get them as a reward.

And if that fails...Death to scam crates!

SilentRaven1972

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uha5c7hJdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ZX7NbOhks