Loot Boxes now becoming Illegal. How does this effect Crown Crates?

Thevampirenight

For the highest valuable items should have regulated requirements of having at least a ten to 15 percent for cosmetic items and 35 percent chance for pay to win boxes at the minimum . A horse or a house it would be a very small chance to get right now. It would maybe be two to three percent best guess. If they made it a law to not only disclose the odds of getting such items. But also a requirement you have to follow for the highest reward to where it does not exploit the playerbase then it would be a middle ground solution which I do feel should be done.

Its understandable up to a point the gaming industry needs profits to continue to support their companies and games and making future games. Given the fact they have not been regulated when it comes to things like lootboxes and in game micro translations has become a major problem.

I don't think they should fully ban the practice of lootboxes but I do think they should be putting regulations on it. At the moment they are looking into putting harsher restrictions like age requirements or the outright banning the sell of such games that deploy lootbox systems. By the looks of it what EA did with a star wars game has put attention on this issue. There might come a time where Elder Scrolls Online might be forced to get rid of them or restrict them.

The gaming industry should still work with lawmakers where loot crates can still make them money but also to prevent abuse of these systems where it can't become full fledged gambling.

Turelus

Continuing this conversation as this was the most fitting thread for it (only a month old necro so I don't think it's too bad)

The Netherlands has moved to banning boxes which have items which hold real world value. Whilst this doesn't effect ESO yet it seems the movement against loot boxes is continuing to gain traction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8ssMDbmrw

mike_skleinub17_ESO

Neverwinter is done for if this actually happens

Sawzallz

So call of duty has been having loot crates long before ea and probably a lot of other games and they aren't having a problem because the chances are actually fair and they offer daily quest to get crates, once a month they do crate bribes, you get a crate everyday, and you could buy them, while eso is a lot different there isn't a way to get crates with out paying for it, and once a year you get a free crate, i love Bethesda i love fallout, skyrim, doom, maybe just stick to single player games.

Gnyxl

Really? Gambling? Hilarious! I'm a Free Market Capitalist. I say ANYTHING goes! Want to sell body parts? Go for it. Want to deal drugs? Knock yourself out! (Literally!) Hell, I don't care - we spend too much taxation on enforcing stupid BS as it is already! While we're at it, fully legalize all firearms as well! Gambling & prostitution too! People will eventually learn what is good for them and the rest will die off anyway. The market always corrects itself and people peddling bad goods and services will go out of business. Free Market Capitalism is self-correcting and self-policing.

DanteYoda

Mechwarrior online just removed the paid aspect of their loot boxes.. Maybe this had something to do with that..

Urza1234 wrote: »

My only contribution is that no one really cares what Belgium or Hawaii does or says. Still they might be on to something.

No only you don't care, you don't speak for all of us.. If governments can stop predatory gambling of minors then all the better.. And yes anyone under 18 is a minor..

Last i checked this games not R18+ and remember different countries have different age requirements.. Any minor these days can buy a reloadable credit card and purchase crates, which is gambling..

JWKe

Let’s face it. Politicians talk talk talk and for all we know they’ll still be talking about it 5 years down the line. We have to remember politicians many are paid off by corps like EA etc and it’ll be silly to think they’re mostly on the side of the “people.” At the end of the day it all comes down to self regulation. Set your limits, and holdfast to it.

Mystrius_Archaion

Juhasow wrote: »

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

You have no idea.
I myself have spent over $200 on crown crates, pretty much exclusively on the first season Storm Atronach. I was just trying to get the Storm Atronach Wolf, Bear and Senche. I only spent that high to get them.
I could have bought those same mounts at the highest mount price we have seen for maybe 5000 crowns each and only spent $100-$120, which is still too much for 3 mounts. This is why it is only viable to spend on crown sales if at all.

I only bought the crates under the assumption that "it won't take that many to get because they wouldn't be so rare that I would spend more than a direct purchase", but I was so deluded.
That's what they hoped for.


This is why they ARE gambling and should be illegal. They are, in fact, worse than gambling because you almost never get equal or greater value in return for your investment unlike actual casinos that are legally, at least in the US, required to pay out 95% of their gambling revenue to the gamblers in some way(as I remember it). These crates do not "pay out" to that standard.
WORSE, when the game ends for whatever reason then we lose all value of the items so the payout is then 0%.

These need to be regulated. There is no argument, only "a sucker is born every minute"(P.T. Barnum) that falls for the tricks and lies that marketing does.

notimetocare

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

You have no idea.
I myself have spent over $200 on crown crates, pretty much exclusively on the first season Storm Atronach. I was just trying to get the Storm Atronach Wolf, Bear and Senche. I only spent that high to get them.
I could have bought those same mounts at the highest mount price we have seen for maybe 5000 crowns each and only spent $100-$120, which is still too much for 3 mounts. This is why it is only viable to spend on crown sales if at all.

I only bought the crates under the assumption that "it won't take that many to get because they wouldn't be so rare that I would spend more than a direct purchase", but I was so deluded.
That's what they hoped for.


This is why they ARE gambling and should be illegal. They are, in fact, worse than gambling because you almost never get equal or greater value in return for your investment unlike actual casinos that are legally, at least in the US, required to pay out 95% of their gambling revenue to the gamblers in some way(as I remember it). These crates do not "pay out" to that standard.
WORSE, when the game ends for whatever reason then we lose all value of the items so the payout is then 0%.

These need to be regulated. There is no argument, only "a sucker is born every minute"(P.T. Barnum) that falls for the tricks and lies that marketing does.

Your, or another persons ignorance, is not a reason something should be illegal. Nor should they be regulated. Government will not fix people's stupidity.

Dutch government just tried this, so we will see how it plays out. I imagine, worse for consumers of whatever games are going to be changed.

rollerx45

I mean it is straight up gambling, making gambling in itself isn't necessarily the right way to go, but as children play these games and are engaging in these loot boxes, then yeah, it should be illegal.

rollerx45

rollerx45 wrote: »

I mean it is straight up gambling, making gambling in itself isn't necessarily the right way to go, but as children play these games and are engaging in these loot boxes, then yeah, it should be illegal.

Making gambling in itself illegal I meant to put.

Alexandea

But... but... today could be my lucky day!

ghastley

Putting motifs in the Crown Crates may have crossed some kind of line. Especially if master writs can require them. That's getting close to having the gambling aspect become a necessary part of playing the game.

Elsonso

ghastley wrote: »

Putting motifs in the Crown Crates may have crossed some kind of line. Especially if master writs can require them. That's getting close to having the gambling aspect become a necessary part of playing the game.

They would tell us, if they bothered to tell us anything, that they have no plans to include these motifs in any writs. This is how ZOS says no to something, while still leaving open the possibility of doing it in the future.

notimetocare

rollerx45 wrote: »

I mean it is straight up gambling, making gambling in itself isn't necessarily the right way to go, but as children play these games and are engaging in these loot boxes, then yeah, it should be illegal.

This game is not rated for children. Not are many other games with loot crates. That is an issue to take up about bad parenting and not a 'illegal cuz gambling' thing.

Slick_007

Turelus wrote: »

Continuing this conversation as this was the most fitting thread for it (only a month old necro so I don't think it's too bad)

The Netherlands has moved to banning boxes which have items which hold real world value. Whilst this doesn't effect ESO yet it seems the movement against loot boxes is continuing to gain traction.

score a win for the nanny state. real world, still to have a turn

Istoppucks

@Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

@ZOS_EveP
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

DanteYoda

Istoppucks wrote: »

@Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

@ZOS_EveP
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

Would you prefer people started new threads on the same topics?

Istoppucks

DanteYoda wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

@Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

@ZOS_EveP
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

Would you prefer people started new threads on the same topics?

Why wouldnt they just comment on the existing threads? Im just asking at what point is necroring a year old threads considered spamming.

On topic:

If this thread is not considered spamming i guess ill post some updated info.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamezone.com/news/new-zealand-claims-that-loot-boxes-do-not-meet-the-legal-definition-for-gambling-3461657/amp/

https://www.pcgamer.com/european-game-rating-body-agrees-with-esrb-loot-boxes-arent-gambling/

http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/11/25/uk-gambling-commission-determines-loot-boxes-arent-gambling-under-british-law

Turelus

Istoppucks wrote: »

Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

ZOS_EveP
ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_JessicaFolsom
ZOS_BillE
ZOS_GaryA

Huh? I just post in the ones that keep going. This is the only necro I have done an that's because it was on an update to a relevant discussion only a month old.

Istoppucks

Turelus wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

ZOS_EveP
ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_JessicaFolsom
ZOS_BillE
ZOS_GaryA

Huh? I just post in the ones that keep going. This is the only necro I have done an that's because it was on an update to a relevant discussion only a month old.

No worries i went ahead and provided updated info if its going to stay open.

Rinira

I understand why games have loot crates but at the same time I try to avoid supporting them through those crates. I am 100% more likely to straight up buy several items that I want rather than waste tons of cash and probably not get what I was after. I doubt this will really effect ESO at all. If it makes them put everything in the cash shop instead of a random box.. sure why not. They didn't always have the boxes anyway.

Mystrius_Archaion

notimetocare wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Crown crates in ESO are far from "predatory gambling boxes" so I doubt it'll touch them in any way.

You have no idea.
I myself have spent over $200 on crown crates, pretty much exclusively on the first season Storm Atronach. I was just trying to get the Storm Atronach Wolf, Bear and Senche. I only spent that high to get them.
I could have bought those same mounts at the highest mount price we have seen for maybe 5000 crowns each and only spent $100-$120, which is still too much for 3 mounts. This is why it is only viable to spend on crown sales if at all.

I only bought the crates under the assumption that "it won't take that many to get because they wouldn't be so rare that I would spend more than a direct purchase", but I was so deluded.
That's what they hoped for.


This is why they ARE gambling and should be illegal. They are, in fact, worse than gambling because you almost never get equal or greater value in return for your investment unlike actual casinos that are legally, at least in the US, required to pay out 95% of their gambling revenue to the gamblers in some way(as I remember it). These crates do not "pay out" to that standard.
WORSE, when the game ends for whatever reason then we lose all value of the items so the payout is then 0%.

These need to be regulated. There is no argument, only "a sucker is born every minute"(P.T. Barnum) that falls for the tricks and lies that marketing does.

Your, or another persons ignorance, is not a reason something should be illegal. Nor should they be regulated. Government will not fix people's stupidity.

Dutch government just tried this, so we will see how it plays out. I imagine, worse for consumers of whatever games are going to be changed.

So we should sell cigarettes to children again because they're ignorant of the dangers?

Seriously, that was too easy.


Also, I happened to have the crowns mostly on sale when I bought them for those crates back then, so I spent $200 that was more like $400. And I may be low-balling the amount since I try to forget how much I wasted on crap drops to get the few things I wanted.

Mystrius_Archaion

rollerx45 wrote: »

rollerx45 wrote: »

I mean it is straight up gambling, making gambling in itself isn't necessarily the right way to go, but as children play these games and are engaging in these loot boxes, then yeah, it should be illegal.

Making gambling in itself illegal I meant to put.

You can edit your post by clicking the gear icon in the upper right of your post and then clicking edit in the dropdown.

Mystrius_Archaion

notimetocare wrote: »

rollerx45 wrote: »

I mean it is straight up gambling, making gambling in itself isn't necessarily the right way to go, but as children play these games and are engaging in these loot boxes, then yeah, it should be illegal.

This game is not rated for children. Not are many other games with loot crates. That is an issue to take up about bad parenting and not a 'illegal cuz gambling' thing.

Actually, gambling legal age is higher than this game's rating in many countries. PEGI 16 is always pasted in the trailers for the European folks, which would put it in legal trouble as a US company legally required to adhere to US law all around the world(yes, seriously) and gambling is minimum 18 or 21 in most areas. This game may be rated "M for Mature" in the US(which I'm unsure if it is) but that's only 17 if memory serves, not the 18 or 21 for gambling.

Also FYI, those ratings are just guidelines with no real power or enforcement capability, so the legal system would require them to be enforced and set a bad precedent for games that would result in stricter rules when purchasing games even for us older people.

Also, they would need to do their best to prevent minors from playing, because everyone knows they do play, by implementing even more obtrusive age checks or whatever else they can come up with, and they would still be vulnerable to the law if a child managed to circumvent this.



If nothing else, this will cause more regulation that none of us wants to hassle with. Therefore, it is best to just avoid the gambling issue entirely by making everything purchasable directly without any RNG, if purchasable at all rather than in game.


Edit:
Looked it up for you to confirm.
legal gambling age by state, all over 18
ESRB Ratings guide, 17 for Mature

Coolits

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prison sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

JWKe

Istoppucks wrote: »

@Turelus Is it really necessary to necro every thread created about loot boxes ? At what point is this considered spamming?

@ZOS_EveP
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

Is it really a necro if the topic discussed is still relevant today?

Istoppucks

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games. You are celebrating the same people who claim violence in video games causes violence?

Way to go *golf clap* you guys are so desperate for attention and upvotes you blindly follow the bandwagon that will open the door for these government agencies to crack down on video games. If you think for a second they will stop at "gambling " you are beyond help. Get those desperately needed upvotes now because you guys are opening Pandora's box with your fake rage.

You know in the end this could be a good thing i guess. Those who can afford to pay double the price for games once this revenue stream is removed and developers have no choice but raise the price. Since f2p wont be a thing the vocal minority will no longer be able to flood forums with their desperate attention bandwagon garbage.

We will no longer be forced to hear the doom and gloom , crying and complaining from the vocal minority.

Turelus

Istoppucks wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games. You are celebrating the same people who claim violence in video games causes violence?

Way to go *golf clap* you guys are so desperate for attention and upvotes you blindly follow the bandwagon that will open the door for these government agencies to crack down on video games. If you think for a second they will stop at "gambling " you are beyond help. Get those desperately needed upvotes now because you guys are opening Pandora's box with your fake rage.

You know in the end this could be a good thing i guess. Those who can afford to pay double the price for games once this revenue stream is removed and developers have no choice but raise the price. Since f2p wont be a thing the vocal minority will no longer be able to flood forums with their desperate attention bandwagon garbage.

We will no longer be forced to hear the doom and gloom , crying and complaining from the vocal minority.

Not all governments are the American government.

Elsonso

Istoppucks wrote: »

Coolits wrote: »

Belgium have finished their investigation into lootboxes and has found them to be illegal warning several games companies to remove them or face upto a 5 year prizon sentince and an 800k euro fine.

First the Dutch and now Belgium, I'm sure many more contries will follow.

Its unbelievable you people support government regulations in video games. You are celebrating the same people who claim violence in video games causes violence?

Way to go *golf clap* you guys are so desperate for attention and upvotes you blindly follow the bandwagon that will open the door for these government agencies to crack down on video games. If you think for a second they will stop at "gambling " you are beyond help. Get those desperately needed upvotes now because you guys are opening Pandora's box with your fake rage.

That is one way to look at it.

Another way is that the computer game industry sits back and realizes that maybe they should come up with some different ways to make revenue that are less exploitive of their customer base. Take action before the government does, rather than waiting for government to do it.

I don't want govenment to step in, but the reason that they are is because some of the studios are pushing the boundaries and attracting the attention of government busybodies. If the studios that caused this had stopped short of that, this thread would not exist.