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Shimmering shield vs Dragon Scales, simple compare after reading pattchnotes where i was hoping...

  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    diplomatt wrote: »
    You can't compare two skills in isolation from the package. If they just made all skills available to all people, or offered comparable skills in out of class abilities then yes you could do that. As it stands you can't because it is the total package that a class offers and not an individual skill. This means passives, this means secondary effects, the whole kit'n'kaboodle. This error crops up so often in most people's analysis and I find it tiresome. I'd also like to add that the ice reflect might actually be a better morph than the ultimate one. They both have their uses.

    As I wrote several times. And in the main messege - Its only example of extremly bad unbalanced design. And we need not only 1 skill change, but a huge amount of them. Not only Dive dodgeable, but skills rework. Also, rework snares (at least standart them as major, minor etc to not stuck to 0 or almost mobility), purge/purify, also rework cost poisons. Many skills and passives, not 1 Dive or 1 shimmering

    My point is that there are bigger problems at play here. They need to solve the broken cc mechanics before they start doing ANYTHING else. I'm actually surprised people don't get more concerned about the ice reflecting morph of this skill, I've a friend who uses that one and it hit hard particularly when combined with his other stuff.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
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    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    diplomatt wrote: »
    LMAO cause 33% of your missing health is peanuts. GDB
    75% of damage done? Worthless to have an offensive heat. Burning Embers
    100% of AOE damage done? No need of something like that in a Xv1. Deep Breath
    The fact that DKs ALSO still have Major Mending or that theirs is on demand? 2 ticks of Vigor get major mending every time you cast it
    Don't forget that passive that lets DKs block 10% more damage than any other class. Iron Skin
    Yep, they've got no tankiness in PvP.

    Random words? I really don't understand anything here before "fact"of dk's major mending.

    "Fact" about 2,5 seconds of Major Mending which dk get for 4050 mana ingneous. And dk have no stamina burst heal. Only 1 option - Rally on 2-hander ( which makes impossible to have counter to snares against u in heavy armor). In medium u have, but any help from "tanky" 10% block cost.
    And 1 mana "burst" heal - Green dragon, which cost, attention! 4320 mana - did u tryed ever to manage on stamina character 2 skills each 4k+ cost in pvp? And GDB heal u for 4k if someone already damaged u for 12k before. 6k if damaged 18k (at this point as usual opponent actively Executing u already).
    But warden gets Major Mending automatic from passive at 40% of health.
    Thats all what we need to know about tankiness.

    4k skill for 2,5 sec Major mending on dk. Dk have no burst stamina heal.
    0 cost 3 sec Major mending on warden. Warden have burst stamina heal (which is stamina, cheap and stronger than green dragon in even case when u lose 90% of your health on dk). also he have green lotus (2700 mana each 20 seconds...), which grants u healing from every light or heavy atack + give u 10% sweapon critical.
    Warden is more tanky in every scenario except pure blocking without damaging opponent.
    Absolutly no challenge.
    And with this Major heroizm, and defence against range atacks, and resourses (netch, passives)...

    Man, just stop writing *** if u don't know mathematics, logic and classes.

    - You want to run Rally, go for it! Use immovability pots or use Unstoppable, both give you CC immunity. (Even Kodi runs Rally on his Warden)
    - I run a DK healer so I know exactly how good and easy Igneous is to keep up.
    - 12000* 0.33 GDB *1.25 Major Mending =4950
    - 18000*0.33 GDB*1.25 Major Mending = 7425 (Looks like its not me who has trouble with math)
    - Both Skills cost you 8370 together
    - Ultimate that gives you 8 seconds of invincibility (3% Damage cap) That's also a 9200 Heal
    -Yep, no DK still have Wardens beat in tankiness

    Since you know one of the classes so well that you didn't even recognize 3 of its skills by what they do, I went ahead and cleared up my original post for you too. Maybe you should take a second to review the mathematics, and logic of the class yourself? I'll be hear if you need anymore help.
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #Nerfmire
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Anethum
    Anethum
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    - You want to run Rally, go for it! Use immovability pots or use Unstoppable, both give you CC immunity. (Even Kodi runs Rally on his Warden)
    - I run a DK healer so I know exactly how good and easy Igneous is to keep up.

    omg, Dunning-Kruger effect as it is.
    u even recognize what difference is between hard cc (immovable pots defend only from hard cc...) and snare or immobilize?
    or if u want to say what kodi run on warden, isn't better to watch attentively his twitch...there main thing is forward momentum (rally is another morf...which is impossible to use together with it...) to remove snares... because of above described...
    dk healer...yeah, I feel your power in pvp and pve...
    hell did u read at all what i wrote about major mending on wardens? warden even don't care about its activation... major mending is automatic...in active fight warden always with major mending buff without spending any resourses for this.
    Edited by Anethum on February 3, 2018 1:44PM
    @Anethum from .ua
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    diplomatt wrote: »

    - You want to run Rally, go for it! Use immovability pots or use Unstoppable, both give you CC immunity. (Even Kodi runs Rally on his Warden)
    - I run a DK healer so I know exactly how good and easy Igneous is to keep up.

    omg, Dunning-Kruger effect as it is.
    u even recognize what difference is between hard cc (immovable pots defend only from hard cc...) and snare or immobilize?
    or if u want to say what kodi run on warden, isn't better to watch attentively his twitch...there main thing is forward momentum (rally is another morf...which is impossible to use together with it...) to remove snares... because of above described...
    dk healer...yeah, I feel your power in pvp and pve...
    hell did u read at all what i wrote about major mending on wardens? warden even don't care about its activation... major mending is automatic...in active fight warden always with major mending buff without spending any resourses for this.

    If you're waiting for 40% health to heal, you're already dead. Staying at 100% Because you have Major Mending at 90% is far more powerful.
    Some how you think because I can run an off build in any content that thats Dunning-Kruger? LMAO.
    look you tried to insult my math, I proved yours wrong. You tried to insult my class knowledge, after failing to recognize 3 skills by their effect. Now your trying to insult may intelligence with a fancy term that’s drop laughably often.

    The true is, Wardens and DK are damably closed to the same, that’s the reason they both can tank. DK have the edge in damage mitigation, Wardens have it in healing, but THAT is all it is, an edge. The same is true between Refective Scale and Shimmering Shield, Refective has an offensive edge, Shimmering a defensive. Both skills shut down range builds, once class counters with burst, the other class counters with consent pressure. People just already understand and except the royal pain that is MagDK in PvP, they haven’t come to grips with Stamden yet.
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #Nerfmire
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    diplomatt wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

    I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

    Dk's almost doesn't use this skill because of it's cost and huge amount of skills which can't be reflected.
    If before Spectral bow dk isn't cc-ed and still have this skill active with all nb's light attacks before it procs, I can't say nothing good about that nightblade.
    Shimmering shield is extremly effective and cheap as hell.
    One of the best examples of "balance"

    Just pointing out that the real reason Shimmering is busted and wings are meh is more the other buffs it gives, rather than the effect itself.

    If I had to tweak Wings, I'd cut the cost to 2k, make it last 1.5 seconds, and then reflect every projectile in that period
    Make it more of an active defense thing rather than something you just throw up.

    Totally agree with making wings into more of an active defence. This change would also make more sense with the visual. They way it works now, you should really see a MagDK flap its wings every second xD.

    But 1.5 seconds is too short. 2 seconds seems more appropriate to account for latency issues.
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Cries wrote: »
    Lmao these people actually saying wings is better than shimmering shield :D

    Welcome to the forums, where people spew bulls#@! to not have their cheese taken away.

    lol, I main a dk, not defengin my "cheese'. Wings is definitely more useful, primarily because its so easy to use offensively and can easily turn pressure around.

    Lol 4 light attacks in response to your wingflap sure is a pressure being turned around. At the cost of 3k and more magicka depending on cost reduction for what, little amount of reflectable skills the game have? While shimmering refunds its costs in some way and generates ults for real heavy attack of healing ult? I'd take shimmering over wings all days.

    Reflect is costly for what it does and it doesn't even do much damage since your stats seem to determine the damage of the returned projectile still. Also, even if you do reflect some projectiles you will still get the secondary effects such as major defile from templar.

    I've ran magicka warden with shimmering and harness, nearly impossible for ranged builds to kill me because I could keep both up and have no strain on my magicka.

    If your wings are just getting taken off by light attacks you're using it wrong. Sitting there spamming wings when nothing is coming at you is obviously not turn any pressure around as you aren't getting pressured in the first place. Pop them when you know a sorc is about to hit a db/meteor + frag combo, a nb is about to hit an incap + merciless combo, or when you're outnumbered and have snipe spammers in the back to deal with, they all just took 9k damage to the face and back off to ward/heal allowing you to start pressuring them. If you're mindlessly using the skill that's not on it, that's on your inability to use it appropriately. In that case they can lower the cost all you want and you'd still just be wasting resources using it ineffectively. I run a stam dk and virtually never run outta magicka for wings/igneous shield/weapons.

    Lol using it wrong. Right. Because I sit there and spam it. Right. /sarcasm Why would I even waste my precious 3k magicka when I can just use mist form (it is still better than wings despite snares and all the other problems).

    Anyone with half the brain does it. Not sure if you are playing the same game. No player with brains will use reflectable skill other than light attacks. No players with common sense will be using frag when they know I slotted the wings until they are sure they can burst me down. I don't even slot wings on any of my DKs. Waste of magicka for what it does when blocking can do much better.
    Edited by IZZEFlameLash on February 4, 2018 3:30AM
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
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    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)
    Edited by Bakkagami on February 4, 2018 8:09AM
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    Tbh, I'm not keen on getting into a general warden vs dk debate. But on the whole, both have their strengths and weaknesses. Timing an ult with a reflected merciless, for example, isn't remotely difficult, and doesn't take anything away from your burst combo options but just gives you another way to burst/counter against certain setups.


    As for the people who seem to believe that I think wardens are bad, that's definitely not the case. I think they're particularly strong in pvp ( i have one that i love playing) but I don't think nerfing shimmering is the way to go, as its a skill comparable to dks wings in terms of class definition and utility. Birds being dodgeable isn't really great an option in my opinion as well. Wardens have essentially 2 offensive skills in pvp. The problem is they both were given insanely high potencies compared to related skills in other classes. (birds hits like an undodgeable/spammable dizzy swing, shalk hits like an ult on a 3 sec cd). IMO, the best way to balance warden for pvp while not making them complete garbage in pve would be to lower the potencies on both skills (keep birds undodgeable but make it significantly weaker - think ransack) and give them another offensive option for sustained damage (An arctic wind revamp would be a good place to put this imo, currently the idea is cool but it scales too low to be useful in almost any situation)

    Now, this convo started out about dks wings needing a cost reduction, which i disagree with so i'll clarify that.

    Magdks in particular do need sustain help, but lowering wings costs wouldn't do anything but increase wing spam and have forums explode about wings countering builds again (the reason why force pulse is no longer reflectable), while not fixing the actual problem. The issue is magdks are the only mag class in the game without an active source of resource recovery that is sporadic rather than continuously reliable. (magblades have syphoning, templars have rune, 5% cost reduction, 5% larger pool and 10% recovery, and wardens have betty netch, as well as resource return). Dk's recovery passive only returns stam so, while that helps block dks and stamdks it's much less useful for a typical pvp magdk, and their ONLY other recovery passive requires an ult and was noticeably nerfed in recent patches. Hardened armor being reworked to apply magicka steal rather than a weak shield for 5% of your health would be a better change and help in both 1v1 and group situations, while still making sure a skill as strong as wings in certain situations still has to be used with some semblance of thought.
    Edited by Bakkagami on February 4, 2018 9:18AM
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

    I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

    Shimmering shield is indeed OP. It is a magica combat skill and stam users are using it. It is that OP.

    As for poor stam toons with no sheilds or reflect. Well, you have dodge chance, freedom from snares from a variety of skills, movement speed for LOS, more resistance, cheaper skills, better armor sets, more CC's, better burst, a greater weapon variety..... I'm not going to cry for you about the shields especially since shields and heals are 50% less effective in PVP and avoiding damage from dodge is not.

    I agree with you on the shimmering shield OP but believe me when I say, from a magica ranged toon, that wings is plenty powerful. It is good enough that you are just not going to loose a fight to a ranged mag toon with it.
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    It does kind of. It bugs to not reflect dots occasionally. Though that could have been part of the not refreshing issue
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #Nerfmire
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    First thing that should be done is buff of Reflective Plate. Its one of the most useless morphs. You won't even notice any difference when use Plate or unmorphed skill.
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shimmering Shield is the BEST active buff skill in PvP right now.

    If you ask ANYONE if they want to basically gain Major Heroism on demand, you already know the answer they'd give you.

    I'm surprised anyone can say Dragon Fire Scale is anywhere near as good as Shimmering Shield.

    Shimmering Shield has basically no cost since it returns magicka, grants Ultimate, protects from damage, and doesn't scale with Battle Spirit...

    Dragon Fire Scale has a 33% shorter duration and costs 1000 more magicka than Shimmering Shield and doesn't return any resources or anything like that to compensate. This means DFS must be casted more often even though it receives less "return-on-investment" than SS.

    And might I say that most Dragonknights would kill even just for your Icy Aura passive (reduces the amount that you can be slowed down by snares)?
    Edited by FlamingBeard on February 4, 2018 9:05PM
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shimmering Shield is the BEST active buff skill in PvP right now.

    If you ask ANYONE if they want to basically gain Major Heroism on demand, you already know the answer they'd give you.

    I'm surprised anyone can say Dragon Fire Scale is anywhere near as good as Shimmering Shield.

    Shimmering Shield has basically no cost since it returns magicka, grants Ultimate, protects from damage, and doesn't scale with Battle Spirit...

    Dragon Fire Scale has a 33% shorter duration and costs 1000 more magicka than Shimmering Shield and doesn't return any resources or anything like that to compensate. This means DFS must be casted more often even though it receives less "return-on-investment" than SS.

    And might I say that most Dragonknights would kill even just for your Icy Aura passive (reduces the amount that you can be slowed down by snares)?

    Holy shiet, you are right. That alone can be a huge boon too. Reducing the snare. Still, major or at least minor heroism would be nice...
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.

    Mobility is easy to maintain with pots, 100% uptime. Not to mention, you really don't see nearly as many Falcon wings as I would except. It seems it another skill that gets bumbed quickly
    BohnT wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    just stop talking about class viability or anything.
    Magma Shell is completely outclassed by shield ult, it's cheaper which is the main reason to use it because it has a higher uptime, prevents all ranged damage vs a Buggy ult that costs 200 ult, often Fails to reduce the damage to 9% and deals 100 aoe dmg while the reflects actually do some damage.

    Whip doesn't hit as hard as birds, neither is it ranged or anything, the offence of a dk is laughable vs stamwarden or magwarden, good luck killing a magplar, or a sorc with your dots, DKs offensive power Comes from skoria.
    good heals are laughable compared to warden heals aswell as buffs and mobility.
    Dk is so bad in solo Play due to lack of mobility

    Paper and practise are 2 different Things, People claimed on the pts that warden was lackluster in pvp and guess what? It's completely overperforming, DK sounds decent on paper but is a trashbag in reality.

    Its pretty clear either you do'nt play a DK at all, or you're just not skilled at all. I'm not trying to suggest builds here, just what available. I run Magma Shell, I also rarely use it. My Power Lash tool tips for 9630, my Cliff Racer 10718. No they are even because that’s Power Lash and not including 15% range Damage. Just because you can’t play it, doesn’t mean it’s not good.
    Shimmering Shield is the BEST active buff skill in PvP right now.

    If you ask ANYONE if they want to basically gain Major Heroism on demand, you already know the answer they'd give you.

    I'm surprised anyone can say Dragon Fire Scale is anywhere near as good as Shimmering Shield.

    Shimmering Shield has basically no cost since it returns magicka, grants Ultimate, protects from damage, and doesn't scale with Battle Spirit...

    Dragon Fire Scale has a 33% shorter duration and costs 1000 more magicka than Shimmering Shield and doesn't return any resources or anything like that to compensate. This means DFS must be casted more often even though it receives less "return-on-investment" than SS.

    And might I say that most Dragonknights would kill even just for your Icy Aura passive (reduces the amount that you can be slowed down by snares)?

    They both last 6 seconds, Wings reflects 4 not 3. How the hell did you come up with Wings not lasting as long :s yes Major Herisom is good, so is 35% extra damage. Shimmering has a Damage cap (scaled with Battle Spirt or not) Wings has no Fing Damage cap at all Sure Ice Aura is great, so is Iron Skin. No they aren’t the same, yes they are damn close to equal footing
    Edited by Maura_Neysa on February 5, 2018 7:40AM
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #Nerfmire
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Stormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Ultimate_Overlord
    Ultimate_Overlord
    ✭✭✭
    You dont understand people. Siege shield is a part of the best solo pvp combo in the game. What you do is put siege shield down as a beacon for zerglings, they come over, see an oil pot that you put down, and then once they pile up and try to burn it you destro ult them. Dont forget to also put down a blood altar so you dont die while ulting. 100% reliable ap farming tactic big boss has been keeping secret for years.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.

    Mobility is easy to maintain with pots, 100% uptime. Not to mention, you really don't see nearly as many Falcon wings as I would except. It seems it another skill that gets bumbed quickly
    BohnT wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    just stop talking about class viability or anything.
    Magma Shell is completely outclassed by shield ult, it's cheaper which is the main reason to use it because it has a higher uptime, prevents all ranged damage vs a Buggy ult that costs 200 ult, often Fails to reduce the damage to 9% and deals 100 aoe dmg while the reflects actually do some damage.

    Whip doesn't hit as hard as birds, neither is it ranged or anything, the offence of a dk is laughable vs stamwarden or magwarden, good luck killing a magplar, or a sorc with your dots, DKs offensive power Comes from skoria.
    good heals are laughable compared to warden heals aswell as buffs and mobility.
    Dk is so bad in solo Play due to lack of mobility

    Paper and practise are 2 different Things, People claimed on the pts that warden was lackluster in pvp and guess what? It's completely overperforming, DK sounds decent on paper but is a trashbag in reality.

    Its pretty clear either you do'nt play a DK at all, or you're just not skilled at all. I'm not trying to suggest builds here, just what available. I run Magma Shell, I also rarely use it. My Power Lash tool tips for 9630, my Cliff Racer 10718. No they are even because that’s Power Lash and not including 15% range Damage. Just because you can’t play it, doesn’t mean it’s not good.
    Shimmering Shield is the BEST active buff skill in PvP right now.

    If you ask ANYONE if they want to basically gain Major Heroism on demand, you already know the answer they'd give you.

    I'm surprised anyone can say Dragon Fire Scale is anywhere near as good as Shimmering Shield.

    Shimmering Shield has basically no cost since it returns magicka, grants Ultimate, protects from damage, and doesn't scale with Battle Spirit...

    Dragon Fire Scale has a 33% shorter duration and costs 1000 more magicka than Shimmering Shield and doesn't return any resources or anything like that to compensate. This means DFS must be casted more often even though it receives less "return-on-investment" than SS.

    And might I say that most Dragonknights would kill even just for your Icy Aura passive (reduces the amount that you can be slowed down by snares)?

    They both last 6 seconds, Wings reflects 4 not 3. How the hell did you come up with Wings not lasting as long :s yes Major Herisom is good, so is 35% extra damage. Shimmering has a Damage cap (scaled with Battle Spirt or not) Wings has no Fing Damage cap at all Sure Ice Aura is great, so is Iron Skin. No they aren’t the same, yes they are damn close to equal footing

    I play stam and magdk so no worries about my class knowledge.
    Yours however is beyond laughable. If you actually used a DK for 1 day in cyro and then switched to a warden with shimmering you should know that the uptime of shimmering shield is almost 100% while Wings can't be kept up with 3.5k magicka cost vs 400 shimmering.
    The damage cap of shimmering is at a level where there is no projectile in the game that can hit for 18k uncritical damage in one hit.

    You can have all dk passives they won't be missed not a single bit.
    35% damage is laughable as the damage is reduced by your mitigation, then it's increased by 35% and then it's reduced by the enemies mitigation.
    Also no one will use a strong skill against wings that means you increase 4 light attacks over 4 seconds which deal 1k damage each time.
    While wardens get ult so they can control when to nuke an enemy with a strong attack pvp is about controlling the fight and your burst window.

    Wings are the exact opposite of controlling your burst as they rely 100% on bad decisions of your enemy to increase your burst

  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    On paper, DK sounds great. But they have a few glaring issues that stop them performing as well.

    The meta for solo is mobile, bursty and take as little damage as possible, not hold block and mitigate and burn down anymore. They can do burst pretty good if built for it, but have *** tier mobility, sustain and no real class defense bar... wings... The reliance on mist/block hurst mobility and sustain quite bad. And niche builds that use shields do worse than other classes, NBs can use cloak and shields, etc. Then comes the issue with sustain.

    Every other class either equals or does better in solo due to having better mobility, sustain and/or defenses.

    Mobility is easy to maintain with pots, 100% uptime. Not to mention, you really don't see nearly as many Falcon wings as I would except. It seems it another skill that gets bumbed quickly
    BohnT wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Adenoma wrote: »
    @Bakkagami , correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I used wings it didn't prevent me from getting DOTs or status effects like major defile (most notably it just reflects the snipe projectile). I can't remember exactly, but I recall the snares getting through wings from things like crippling grasp, etc.

    Shimmering shield won't reflect DOTs or status effects either, but it will not reflect things like knockbacks or CCs.

    I'll agree that someone spamming wings is a dumb player because you're really just trying to create damage windows where you reflect a frag, will proc, or some other big projectile for unexpected burst. People can play around wings if they're just keeping them up all the time and eventually that magDK is going to be unable to sustain wings while being offensive.

    Having recently decided to stop maining stamwarden after I had to jump from the stamDK ship (RIP my sweet prince) I can tell you that as a magNB I just have to leave any warden running shimmering shield alone. Who cares if they're snared/have DOTs/get defiled because I can't produce any offensive pressure through a shield that is essentially free for them to keep up - sure, those secondary effects would matter if I'm trying to Xv1 someone. My only real option as a solo player is to just disengage or waste resources in the hope that they play like an idiot and leave me big offensive windows. If a warden using shimmering shield is halfway competent all they have to do to avoid dying to my range is to literally just refresh SS on cooldown.

    You can't refresh wings on cooldown and have the same success.

    Wings does in fact reflect dot portions of skills like vamp bane or poison inject, same with cripple root/snare and dot.

    Against a magnb shimmering and wings will work pretty much the same except in the case of shimmering you will get heroism uptime, in the case of wings the nb will end up damaging themselves via their spammabe, class dot, and execute (which is pretty amusing since the damage will still scale off your low health. Haven't tested if it double scales though.)

    And even against a magnb shimmering is better both offensive and defensive wise.
    With wings you need an opponent that is dumb enough to use anything besides light attacks no one would use will against a DK with wings or even crippling grasp.
    Even if they use it you can't combine it with a burst rota as you'd had to start it in a blink of an eye with no time to prepare for it.

    With major heroism you get free ult and then you can decide when to use your burst rota and there is nothing the other player can do to stop you from using your ult.

    Shimmering vs Wings is a microcosm of Warden vs DK.
    Wardens can rely on their own skill to kill people while DKs have to hope that their opponent is stupid in order to be able to kill them.

    I suggest you do some DK research, DKS have all the tools they need to be absolute solo Beasts. Every form of cc, good heals, good damage, a skill that hits as hard as Cliff Racer (though not as cheesable) an amazing offensive and Defensive Ulti.

    just stop talking about class viability or anything.
    Magma Shell is completely outclassed by shield ult, it's cheaper which is the main reason to use it because it has a higher uptime, prevents all ranged damage vs a Buggy ult that costs 200 ult, often Fails to reduce the damage to 9% and deals 100 aoe dmg while the reflects actually do some damage.

    Whip doesn't hit as hard as birds, neither is it ranged or anything, the offence of a dk is laughable vs stamwarden or magwarden, good luck killing a magplar, or a sorc with your dots, DKs offensive power Comes from skoria.
    good heals are laughable compared to warden heals aswell as buffs and mobility.
    Dk is so bad in solo Play due to lack of mobility

    Paper and practise are 2 different Things, People claimed on the pts that warden was lackluster in pvp and guess what? It's completely overperforming, DK sounds decent on paper but is a trashbag in reality.

    Its pretty clear either you do'nt play a DK at all, or you're just not skilled at all. I'm not trying to suggest builds here, just what available. I run Magma Shell, I also rarely use it. My Power Lash tool tips for 9630, my Cliff Racer 10718. No they are even because that’s Power Lash and not including 15% range Damage. Just because you can’t play it, doesn’t mean it’s not good.
    Shimmering Shield is the BEST active buff skill in PvP right now.

    If you ask ANYONE if they want to basically gain Major Heroism on demand, you already know the answer they'd give you.

    I'm surprised anyone can say Dragon Fire Scale is anywhere near as good as Shimmering Shield.

    Shimmering Shield has basically no cost since it returns magicka, grants Ultimate, protects from damage, and doesn't scale with Battle Spirit...

    Dragon Fire Scale has a 33% shorter duration and costs 1000 more magicka than Shimmering Shield and doesn't return any resources or anything like that to compensate. This means DFS must be casted more often even though it receives less "return-on-investment" than SS.

    And might I say that most Dragonknights would kill even just for your Icy Aura passive (reduces the amount that you can be slowed down by snares)?

    They both last 6 seconds, Wings reflects 4 not 3. How the hell did you come up with Wings not lasting as long :s yes Major Herisom is good, so is 35% extra damage. Shimmering has a Damage cap (scaled with Battle Spirt or not) Wings has no Fing Damage cap at all Sure Ice Aura is great, so is Iron Skin. No they aren’t the same, yes they are damn close to equal footing

    I play stam and magdk so no worries about my class knowledge.
    Yours however is beyond laughable. If you actually used a DK for 1 day in cyro and then switched to a warden with shimmering you should know that the uptime of shimmering shield is almost 100% while Wings can't be kept up with 3.5k magicka cost vs 400 shimmering.
    The damage cap of shimmering is at a level where there is no projectile in the game that can hit for 18k uncritical damage in one hit.

    You can have all dk passives they won't be missed not a single bit.
    35% damage is laughable as the damage is reduced by your mitigation, then it's increased by 35% and then it's reduced by the enemies mitigation.
    Also no one will use a strong skill against wings that means you increase 4 light attacks over 4 seconds which deal 1k damage each time.
    While wardens get ult so they can control when to nuke an enemy with a strong attack pvp is about controlling the fight and your burst window.

    Wings are the exact opposite of controlling your burst as they rely 100% on bad decisions of your enemy to increase your burst

    Pretty sure you're viewing wings like its a ward (should be kept up). It's an active reflect skill, not a souped up harness. Yea, no one good is going to hit you with a hard hitting skill when your putting up wings 3 seconds before they attack because they looked at you funny, but you will reflect people regularly if you know when to use them. Put wings up when they are going into a merciless combo, when a sorcs frags are proc'd, or when a snipe is in the air. If you're trying to spam wings that's on your inability to manage resources, I've been maining a stam dk for over 3500 hrs and not being able to manage wings has never been an issue. Shimmering has a lower skill floor since its cost and ult gen but that's it, Wings is more deadly if used by someone who knows how to use it as it allows you to SIMULTANEOUSLY negate an opponent's burst and put burst pressure on them.

    Dk as it is now, is fun because it takes some modicum of skill and knowledge of not only your class but people you are going up against, as opposed to the gods we were before, easily 1vXing just about anything with infinite resources, insane tankiness/heals and ridiculous damage. Stam dk in particular still has a solid toolkit. magdk can use some resource management help but otherwise their toolkit is solid as well. (been using chains recently on mine open world and its been solid for mobility/empowerment and staying on top of targets for heals)

    Also... 12% healing received with easy 100% uptime... AT WILL access to major mending... 10% block cost reduction... basically 100% uptime on 30% snare... minor brutality (think its 1 of only 2 ways to get that buff, other being through poisons)... and obviously stam return and resource return from ults... dk passives aren't exactly something to laugh at...
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    You dont understand people. Siege shield is a part of the best solo pvp combo in the game. What you do is put siege shield down as a beacon for zerglings, they come over, see an oil pot that you put down, and then once they pile up and try to burn it you destro ult them. Dont forget to also put down a blood altar so you dont die while ulting. 100% reliable ap farming tactic big boss has been keeping secret for years.

    definitely trying this on a magblade for the laughs.
  • Adenoma
    Adenoma
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just putting it out there - as a magNB I would slot the reworked agony in a heartbeat to be able to get major heroism.
    Adenoma-Badenoma-Sadenoma
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Adenoma wrote: »
    Just putting it out there - as a magNB I would slot the reworked agony in a heartbeat to be able to get major heroism.

    I just imagined a NB with Major Heroism access through class skills *shudder*.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shimmering shield hands down just for that delicious ultgen.

    Though... NBs with it would be... not desirable...
    Edited by IZZEFlameLash on February 5, 2018 3:25PM
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • RighteousBacon
    RighteousBacon
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

    I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

    Bruh just dodge roll, it’s especially predictable when it gets reflected
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

    I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

    Bruh just dodge roll, it’s especially predictable when it gets reflected

    or you know, be a smart lad and use fear+light weave before using the spectral proc.

    By the time that DK breaks free his wings will be down and he will probably eat that bow to his face.

    Same thing can also work on wardens, tho by removing their shimmering shield you effectively give them major heroism+magicka return so its not even a lose for them, as long as they don't die instantly.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Magdks in particular do need sustain help, but lowering wings costs wouldn't do anything but increase wing spam and have forums explode about wings countering builds again (the reason why force pulse is no longer reflectable), while not fixing the actual problem. The issue is magdks are the only mag class in the game without an active source of resource recovery that is sporadic rather than continuously reliable. (magblades have syphoning, templars have rune, 5% cost reduction, 5% larger pool and 10% recovery, and wardens have betty netch, as well as resource return). Dk's recovery passive only returns stam so, while that helps block dks and stamdks it's much less useful for a typical pvp magdk, and their ONLY other recovery passive requires an ult and was noticeably nerfed in recent patches. Hardened armor being reworked to apply magicka steal rather than a weak shield for 5% of your health would be a better change and help in both 1v1 and group situations, while still making sure a skill as strong as wings in certain situations still has to be used with some semblance of thought.

    While I agree with what you said, I'd rather not have hardened armor taken away from my 1vx stamDK. Hardened+vigor+igneous is pretty much the only way to survive. Unless volatile armor is changed to deal poison damage (adding damage so I can compensate for survivability else where), I don't think it's fair that the defensive Major buffs skill only benefit magDKs. Every little bit helps in a 1vx, even a 1k damage shield.

    Just change Elder Dragon into a magicka+health constitution passive instead.
    They both last 6 seconds, Wings reflects 4 not 3. How the hell did you come up with Wings not lasting as long :s yes Major Herisom is good, so is 35% extra damage. Shimmering has a Damage cap (scaled with Battle Spirt or not) Wings has no Fing Damage cap at all Sure Ice Aura is great, so is Iron Skin. No they aren’t the same, yes they are damn close to equal footing

    This doesn't change the fact that wings does not do enough for its cost. Personally, I do see wings in PvP a lot more than I used to but when I talk to players it's more because there's nothing else for them to bar. Wings, a class iconic skill, should be slotted for a better reason than just to fill space.

    That said, while I do advocate for a decrease in the cost of wings, I'd only accept it if the duration was decreased to 1.5-2.5 seconds, making the skill more reactive than a passive hard counter (also remove reflection cap). If a MDK wants to cast wings every GCD then that's their play style.

    Shimmering shield is overpowered ONLY because of how easily it can be sustained in conjunction with what it does. It does too much for it's opportunity cost. Remove the magicka on return and the skill would be [more] balanced. Shimmering shield could just as easily be compared to Harness magicka in this regard. Stam DKs cannot have 100% uptime on wings, yet stamens can achieve virtually 100% uptime. The issue isn't the effects of the skills but rather the uptime. 100% Negation of the bulk of your opponents offensive pressure is much more damaging than both 135% reflected projectiles and Major Heroism combined.
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