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Shimmering shield vs Dragon Scales, simple compare after reading pattchnotes where i was hoping...

  • Derra
    Derra
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Yeah, have to agree - wings could use some love.

    But I wouldn't just straight up buff the ability, it's really strong already in 1v1 against sorcs, bow builds, magblades etc. In fact, it's a bit too strong vs certain builds when it can be sustained indefinitely (builds with high regen, e.g. Lich etc can do this).


    Maybe they could make it a toggle that reflects infinite amount of projectiles, but stops your magicka/stamina regeneration entirely (and drains X magicka and/or stamina for every reflected projectile if this proves to be too strong)?

    I usually agree with you, but this would end up increasing the sustain problems even more, not even taking the stamina loss into account. Just lowering its cost would be fine imo, no buff, no nerf, just a cost reduction.
    Edit: grammar related

    Playing ranged Magblade and Sorc without pulse. No it wouldn´t.
    It´s a hardcounter.
    It´s also a very good trade in terms of dmg/cost ration compared to other skills - even if it only reflects lightattacks.
    If it does not reflect anything it bought you 6s where your opponent did not attack you with anything threatening.
    Edited by Derra on January 31, 2018 11:37AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • BohnT
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    Derra wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

    And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

    Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

    I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

    Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
    Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

    I think the problem with wings is that it´s only useful in situations with 1 projectile build. It´s still grossly op when fighting projectile builds in such a 1v1 situation.
    It trades well with even just lightattacks.

    I´d reduce wings uptime to 2.5 to 2.8s and make it reflect unlimited projectiles again while adjusting the cost down by ~25%. That way it becomes less of an overpowering 1v1 tool vs projectiles but at the same time gains immense utility as a real defense mechanic again.

    The extra dmg reflected morph seems fine - it could be merged with the small spellresi buff.
    The other could provide root and snare immunity for the duration (come on that or speedbuff is just superfitting for wings idk why that hasn´t happened yet).

    Giving wings unlimited projectiles reflects would make it way too strong even with reduced duration.
    I would keep the duration and increase the amount of reflects to 16 but only 4 reflects per person this would make them better against multiple targets.

    And the idea of giving reflective plate snare removal + immunity would be great and would make them more viable for stamdk
  • CrazYDunm3r
    CrazYDunm3r
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    Derra wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Yeah, have to agree - wings could use some love.

    But I wouldn't just straight up buff the ability, it's really strong already in 1v1 against sorcs, bow builds, magblades etc. In fact, it's a bit too strong vs certain builds when it can be sustained indefinitely (builds with high regen, e.g. Lich etc can do this).


    Maybe they could make it a toggle that reflects infinite amount of projectiles, but stops your magicka/stamina regeneration entirely (and drains X magicka and/or stamina for every reflected projectile if this proves to be too strong)?

    I usually agree with you, but this would end up increasing the sustain problems even more, not even taking the stamina loss into account. Just lowering its cost would be fine imo, no buff, no nerf, just a cost reduction.
    Edit: grammar related

    Playing ranged Magblade and Sorc without pulse. No it wouldn´t.
    It´s a hardcounter.
    It´s also a very good tradeoff in terms of dmg/cost ration compared to other skills - even if it only reflects lightattacks.
    If it does not reflect anything it bought you 6s where your opponent did not attack you with anything threatening.

    I responded to DDuke his offer, not yours. I still think every class deserves something that makes them stand out, for the DK that used to be wings. We can't move (we only have a nice gap closer I agree), we can't shieldstack that well, we can't cloak, we can't execute, but we can heal pretty well (small nerf because of the "bug" fixes) if you have a brain yes. There are much more skills in the game that are OP and yes, in a 1v1 situation against a caster wings is pretty OP, but... where do you see that except a duel? I'm seeing this in an open world perspective. Our sustain is worst by far, the skill is powerfull and shouldn't cost like 1k magicka or something, I just ask for a small cost reduction. It might be a counter etc and I don't say your vision is wrong, but I try to say that sustain is much more difficult than other classes and making this change DDuke offered wouldn't help that much for the class in general.
    Edited by CrazYDunm3r on January 31, 2018 11:43AM
    Ƹ== Glorious Wingtard ==Ʒ
    YouTube
    Triggered Tryhards
  • Derra
    Derra
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

    And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

    Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

    I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

    Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
    Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

    I think the problem with wings is that it´s only useful in situations with 1 projectile build. It´s still grossly op when fighting projectile builds in such a 1v1 situation.
    It trades well with even just lightattacks.

    I´d reduce wings uptime to 2.5 to 2.8s and make it reflect unlimited projectiles again while adjusting the cost down by ~25%. That way it becomes less of an overpowering 1v1 tool vs projectiles but at the same time gains immense utility as a real defense mechanic again.

    The extra dmg reflected morph seems fine - it could be merged with the small spellresi buff.
    The other could provide root and snare immunity for the duration (come on that or speedbuff is just superfitting for wings idk why that hasn´t happened yet).

    Giving wings unlimited projectiles reflects would make it way too strong even with reduced duration.
    I would keep the duration and increase the amount of reflects to 16 but only 4 reflects per person this would make them better against multiple targets.

    And the idea of giving reflective plate snare removal + immunity would be great and would make them more viable for stamdk

    I don´t think so to be honest.

    4 reflects currently is already overperforming against pure projectile builds. Mind you i think all hardcounter mechanics are garbage and lazy design.

    If we´re going from a 2.5s duration the DK would only be able to use 1 skill in between having to recast wings. It would be a very potent defense mechanism but under the light that it would basically eliminate doing anything else i don´t think it would be broken.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    In the end - no matter if you tweak the cost, the amount of projectiles absorbed/reflected, or the duration - it’s always about uptime. You need to have windows where wings are not available, or else ranged builds are completely hard countered.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • TheMystid
    TheMystid
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    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    (Not saying noob to you ofc, but only time that argument worked for me was against pure beginners.. many skills are actually easier to reflect with defensive stance rather than wings vs average/good players)
    Edited by TheMystid on January 31, 2018 11:57AM
    PC EU

    Nostalgic StamDk
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo (MMR too high, RIP) & Mighty Mojo Monkey
  • CrazYDunm3r
    CrazYDunm3r
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Please keep it constructive.
    Ƹ== Glorious Wingtard ==Ʒ
    YouTube
    Triggered Tryhards
  • Derra
    Derra
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    It´s not really a noobs perspective though. Wings either buys you 6s of time where you can´t get hit with projectiles or it becomes extremely costefficient.
    Assuming lightattack tooltip of ~2.5k just reflecting those is reflecting 13500 tooltip dmg.
    Reflecting just 1 skill will put it way past normal skills dmg potential for one gcd.

    Edit: Assuming 2.5k tooltip for lighattacks is for a very low dmg setup.
    Edited by Derra on January 31, 2018 12:02PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • TheMystid
    TheMystid
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.
    PC EU

    Nostalgic StamDk
  • Derra
    Derra
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    If the sniper does dodge or cloak the snipe you traded resources. If they do it for 2 snipes you´ve traded resources favorably - as the cost for 2x cloak + 2x snipe or 2x dodge + 2x snipe exceeds the cost of wings by far.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    That comparison is off though. It isn’t that Wings is under every circumstance too bad, but that Shimmering Shield is under every circumstance too good. If ZOS buffs Wings to Shimmering Shield Level ranged players can change to stam.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Feanor wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    That comparison is off though. It isn’t that Wings is under every circumstance too bad, but that Shimmering Shield is under every circumstance too good. If ZOS buffs Wings to Shimmering Shield Level ranged players can change to stam.

    100% agreed. Imo shimmering should have a greater cost associated to it per projectile absorbed as it is currently the case.
    It´s simply too cheap.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    Based on that every damage skill in the game is a "could happen". They still cost ressources. Thats why I used the word "potential" in the quoted post on purpose. The damage potential is there and it is not small. A developer ususally compares raw power/cost ratio of skills on paper to determine balance. "Could happen"s/potential dmg would be some kind of average - that average has to be considered when ranking the skill, since the potential output exists. Same is true for all damage skills.
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 31, 2018 12:31PM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo (MMR too high, RIP) & Mighty Mojo Monkey
  • TheMystid
    TheMystid
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    Derra wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    If the sniper does dodge or cloak the snipe you traded resources. If they do it for 2 snipes you´ve traded resources favorably - as the cost for 2x cloak + 2x snipe or 2x dodge + 2x snipe exceeds the cost of wings by far.

    Fair enough, but from a stamdk point of view the magicka spent for wings is way more valuable than the stamina used by the hypothetical sniper (as I can use it for Igneus shiled which gives me stamina back, for instance). Ofc from a magicka dk POV you're totally right.
    PC EU

    Nostalgic StamDk
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Let's further assume that my ultimate's dmg output is 20k cast every 20 second without major heroism. Thats 60k dmg ouput a minute. With major heroism (ultimate cast every 16 sec) we are generously saying its 1 ultimate cast more a minute - 80k dmg done per minute.

    Thats 20k added dmg ouput per minute due to major heroism (with 100% uptime and favorable rounding/assumptions).

    On paper, imo, even if wings would solely reflect light attacks (assuming 2.5k dmg output each) with only 25 % wings uptime (25% uptime = 15 sec uptime/minute = 4+4+2 projectiles being reflected = (4x2.5k)*2 + (2x2.5k) = 25k dmg output through reflects) - wings reflect would still come out slightly ahead in terms of dmg ouput compared to major heroism.

    I am fully aware that, especially in PvP, stuff plays out a bit different. But on paper, wings is really strong, imo. I think tho, that following the logic above, major heroism is not the problem with shimmering - it's the low cost.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo (MMR too high, RIP) & Mighty Mojo Monkey
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Let's further assume that my ultimate's dmg output is 20k cast every 20 second without major heroism. Thats 60k dmg ouput a minute. With major heroism (ultimate cast every 16 sec) we are generously saying its 1 ultimate cast more a minute - 80k dmg done per minute.

    Thats 20k added dmg ouput per minute due to major heroism (with 100% uptime and favorable rounding/assumptions).

    On paper, imo, even if wings would solely reflect light attacks (assuming 2.5k dmg output each) with only 25 % wings uptime (25% uptime = 15 sec uptime/minute = 4+4+2 projectiles being reflected = (4x2.5k)*2 + (2x2.5k) = 25k dmg output through reflects) - wings reflect would still come out slightly ahead in terms of dmg ouput compared to major heroism.

    I am fully aware that, especially in PvP, stuff plays out a bit different. But on paper, wings is really strong, imo. I think tho, that following the logic above, major heroism is not the problem with shimmering - it's the low cost.

    Major Heroism is absolutely the problem with shimmering shield. You get way too much ult, with warden I can easily use trees back to back. I can dish out dawnbreakers faster than incaps on my stamnb.
    The skill is just completely overtuned and needs major heroism changed to minor and the cost increased or the regain reduced.

    Major Heroism shouldn't be available to anyone with a 100% uptime. The only other source of major heroism has a 18 second cooldown and only procs at 20% health.
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    BohnT wrote: »
    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Let's further assume that my ultimate's dmg output is 20k cast every 20 second without major heroism. Thats 60k dmg ouput a minute. With major heroism (ultimate cast every 16 sec) we are generously saying its 1 ultimate cast more a minute - 80k dmg done per minute.

    Thats 20k added dmg ouput per minute due to major heroism (with 100% uptime and favorable rounding/assumptions).

    On paper, imo, even if wings would solely reflect light attacks (assuming 2.5k dmg output each) with only 25 % wings uptime (25% uptime = 15 sec uptime/minute = 4+4+2 projectiles being reflected = (4x2.5k)*2 + (2x2.5k) = 25k dmg output through reflects) - wings reflect would still come out slightly ahead in terms of dmg ouput compared to major heroism.

    I am fully aware that, especially in PvP, stuff plays out a bit different. But on paper, wings is really strong, imo. I think tho, that following the logic above, major heroism is not the problem with shimmering - it's the low cost.

    Major Heroism is absolutely the problem with shimmering shield. You get way too much ult, with warden I can easily use trees back to back. I can dish out dawnbreakers faster than incaps on my stamnb.
    The skill is just completely overtuned and needs major heroism changed to minor and the cost increased or the regain reduced.

    Major Heroism shouldn't be available to anyone with a 100% uptime. The only other source of major heroism has a 18 second cooldown and only procs at 20% health.

    I diagree. A simple cost increase by 50% - 100% (or corresponding reduction of mag return on absorb) would fix the uptime issue, especially on stamWardens (which should be focused on as an outlier/overperformer when trying to balance shimmering) while still reducing its uptime on magWarden signifcantly.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo (MMR too high, RIP) & Mighty Mojo Monkey
  • TheMystid
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    TheMystid wrote: »
    TheMystid wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    And that's exactly ZOS perspective: noobs' perspective.

    Thanks for your input. What exactly is wrong with the message you quoted?

    AFAIK reflected skills are still dodgeable or blockable by their initial caster, so the pros of reflecting a snipe will never be as good as a major heroism gain as long as the sniper has a bit of experience. If you want to incorporate what "could" happen by using wings, there are still many argument to consider besides that "single snipe reflect". Can't be any more constructive than that since I think OP has perfectly shown how the utility/defense shimmering provides has no match in the utility/offense dk wings provides.

    Based on that every damage skill in the game is a "could happen". They still cost ressources. Thats why I used the word "potential" in the quoted post on purpose. The damage potential is there and it is not small. A developer ususally compares raw power/cost ratio of skills on paper to determine balance. "Could happen"s/potential dmg would be some kind of average - that average has to be considered when ranking the skill, since the potential output exists. Same is true for all damage skills.

    If dk wings is a damage skill it is true, I can't say anything more:there's no point in comparing it to shimmering. Maybe people are just misled by the similar animation. In fact, i think the core of the problem is in the end another one - Dk's frustration :(
    Edited by TheMystid on January 31, 2018 1:12PM
    PC EU

    Nostalgic StamDk
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    The problem with Wings is that it's one of DKs last surviving defensive abilities (RIP old Cinder Storm) and yet its worth is highly questionable in open-world scenarios where the projectile cap is eaten up quickly if not immediately and DK simply lacks the sustain to keep casting wings.

    Wings (along with Cinderstorm) needs a total rework (so does Shimmering Shield, but alas). I don't think there's any question that Wings overperforms in duels against pure ranged builds. As limited as those encounters are (true 1v1s in Cyrodiil, and true ranged builds that aren't total scrubs), I don't like true hard counters in this game which shield is. Paradoxically, wings completely underperforms in open world--as I said above, it gets eaten up too quickly and DKs cannot sustain repeated casts if they want to be able to do anything else.

    It's time to make this a true defensive ability again that would help DKs perform across the board. I've advocated in the past for Wings to become a smallish AoE missile dampening ability that reduces the damage of projectiles for you and nearby allies around you. I think this would be more reliable, and thus more desirable, since it would perform better in open world, but act as less of a hard counter in duels. It would also give mDK some much needed utility to add to PvP groups.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
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    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • BohnT
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    BohnT wrote: »
    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Let's further assume that my ultimate's dmg output is 20k cast every 20 second without major heroism. Thats 60k dmg ouput a minute. With major heroism (ultimate cast every 16 sec) we are generously saying its 1 ultimate cast more a minute - 80k dmg done per minute.

    Thats 20k added dmg ouput per minute due to major heroism (with 100% uptime and favorable rounding/assumptions).

    On paper, imo, even if wings would solely reflect light attacks (assuming 2.5k dmg output each) with only 25 % wings uptime (25% uptime = 15 sec uptime/minute = 4+4+2 projectiles being reflected = (4x2.5k)*2 + (2x2.5k) = 25k dmg output through reflects) - wings reflect would still come out slightly ahead in terms of dmg ouput compared to major heroism.

    I am fully aware that, especially in PvP, stuff plays out a bit different. But on paper, wings is really strong, imo. I think tho, that following the logic above, major heroism is not the problem with shimmering - it's the low cost.

    Major Heroism is absolutely the problem with shimmering shield. You get way too much ult, with warden I can easily use trees back to back. I can dish out dawnbreakers faster than incaps on my stamnb.
    The skill is just completely overtuned and needs major heroism changed to minor and the cost increased or the regain reduced.

    Major Heroism shouldn't be available to anyone with a 100% uptime. The only other source of major heroism has a 18 second cooldown and only procs at 20% health.

    I diagree. A simple cost increase by 50% - 100% (or corresponding reduction of mag return on absorb) would fix the uptime issue, especially on stamWardens (which should be focused on as an outlier/overperformer when trying to balance shimmering) while still reducing its uptime on magWarden signifcantly.

    No the uptime on every other class is 33% max and with every proc you are at a risk to die due to you health being >=20%.

    The buff has to be removed from the skill no matter how much you increase the cost it is too powerful
  • Derra
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    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Average ulti gain is 3 per second.
    Major heroism provides 3 per 1.5 seconds.
    Assuming 100% uptime it´s a 66% increase in ulti gain - if no other factors (minor heroism, decisive, bloodspawn, tava's, passives for killing) are present.

    It´s really strong - but i don´t think it´s the problem with the ability but rather that a theoretical 100% uptime does not cost you more than 120 magica/s.
    Edited by Derra on January 31, 2018 2:05PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • DKsUnite
    DKsUnite
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    I know not all mDKs play this way but alot play permablock so a light attack is only doing like 700 dmg... would rather take the 2.8k dmg from 4 light attacks and get major heroism
    Vyr Cor | Magicka Dragonknight | DC
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

    And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

    Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

    I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

    Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
    Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

    I think the problem with wings is that it´s only useful in situations with 1 projectile build. It´s still grossly op when fighting projectile builds in such a 1v1 situation.
    It trades well with even just lightattacks.

    I´d reduce wings uptime to 2.5 to 2.8s and make it reflect unlimited projectiles again while adjusting the cost down by ~25%. That way it becomes less of an overpowering 1v1 tool vs projectiles but at the same time gains immense utility as a real defense mechanic again.

    The extra dmg reflected morph seems fine - it could be merged with the small spellresi buff.
    The other could provide root and snare immunity for the duration (come on that or speedbuff is just superfitting for wings idk why that hasn´t happened yet).

    Giving wings unlimited projectiles reflects would make it way too strong even with reduced duration.
    I would keep the duration and increase the amount of reflects to 16 but only 4 reflects per person this would make them better against multiple targets.

    And the idea of giving reflective plate snare removal + immunity would be great and would make them more viable for stamdk

    3 reflects per person, but no cap on people. Zergs are op as is.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    I believe based on the major/minor system its kinda safe to assume that major heroism (shimmering shield) is increasing ultimate gain on average by about 25% (Please correct me if wrong, I have no addon tracking that or providing me an average ult/sec monitoring) with 100% uptime.

    Let's further assume that my ultimate's dmg output is 20k cast every 20 second without major heroism. Thats 60k dmg ouput a minute. With major heroism (ultimate cast every 16 sec) we are generously saying its 1 ultimate cast more a minute - 80k dmg done per minute.

    Thats 20k added dmg ouput per minute due to major heroism (with 100% uptime and favorable rounding/assumptions).

    On paper, imo, even if wings would solely reflect light attacks (assuming 2.5k dmg output each) with only 25 % wings uptime (25% uptime = 15 sec uptime/minute = 4+4+2 projectiles being reflected = (4x2.5k)*2 + (2x2.5k) = 25k dmg output through reflects) - wings reflect would still come out slightly ahead in terms of dmg ouput compared to major heroism.

    I am fully aware that, especially in PvP, stuff plays out a bit different. But on paper, wings is really strong, imo. I think tho, that following the logic above, major heroism is not the problem with shimmering - it's the low cost.

    Change shimmering (and wings) to be per target. Lower resource return of shimmering, and make it something like 0.5% of users max mag. (200 per hit at 40k mag) Therefore increasing potential against groups. But lowering it against single players and for stamden.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • callen4492
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    diplomatt wrote: »
    to see a Real balance changes...

    Shimmering shield cost 2432 mag on my stam warden (bosmer)) in heavy or medium, return mana from projectiles (astronomic number 18216 of damage from projectile absorbed...and 578 mag from every projectile), it gives Major heroism for 6 seconds each time without coldown...So u need only 698 (2432-578*3) magicka to cast it...698 mana cost hell...

    And, for example we have Dragon scales on dk, the can reflect 4 projectiles...but not force pulce or warden's dive...give u while active +12% of healing recieved from passive and nothing else...cost on stamina dk is 3780 mana...

    @ZOS_Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Dk's Dragon scales are 5,4 times more expencive than Warden's Shimmering Shield, which in addition saves from no matter how big projectiles and gives u Unique extremly usefull buff... What the hell is going on? Do u really think that Dive is only thing need to be fixed...Really?

    To be fair, you didn't mention that wings REFLECT projectiles, whereas shim shield just absorbs them. You still even get stunned by projectiles like the Templars binding spear. Also, that means that wings return damage to the attacker. You didn't mention those things. That makes up for a little bit of the difference between the skills.

    I agree that this skill needs to be toned down but it's more that wings need to be fixed.

    As always, people overexxagerate on the forums.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    callen4492 wrote: »
    diplomatt wrote: »
    to see a Real balance changes...

    Shimmering shield cost 2432 mag on my stam warden (bosmer)) in heavy or medium, return mana from projectiles (astronomic number 18216 of damage from projectile absorbed...and 578 mag from every projectile), it gives Major heroism for 6 seconds each time without coldown...So u need only 698 (2432-578*3) magicka to cast it...698 mana cost hell...

    And, for example we have Dragon scales on dk, the can reflect 4 projectiles...but not force pulce or warden's dive...give u while active +12% of healing recieved from passive and nothing else...cost on stamina dk is 3780 mana...

    @ZOS_Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Dk's Dragon scales are 5,4 times more expencive than Warden's Shimmering Shield, which in addition saves from no matter how big projectiles and gives u Unique extremly usefull buff... What the hell is going on? Do u really think that Dive is only thing need to be fixed...Really?

    To be fair, you didn't mention that wings REFLECT projectiles, whereas shim shield just absorbs them. You still even get stunned by projectiles like the Templars binding spear. Also, that means that wings return damage to the attacker. You didn't mention those things. That makes up for a little bit of the difference between the skills.

    I agree that this skill needs to be toned down but it's more that wings need to be fixed.

    As always, people overexxagerate on the forums.

    I think the safe gain of major heroism makes up for the potentially reflected dmg personally.
    There should be no reason for the drastic cost difference.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Anethum
    Anethum
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    callen4492 wrote: »

    To be fair, you didn't mention that wings REFLECT projectiles, whereas shim shield just absorbs them. You still even get stunned by projectiles like the Templars binding spear. Also, that means that wings return damage to the attacker. You didn't mention those things. That makes up for a little bit of the difference between the skills.

    I agree that this skill needs to be toned down but it's more that wings need to be fixed.

    As always, people overexxagerate on the forums.

    reflect is absurd since then Zeni made so much exceptions to reflection. Absorb works on any projectile.
    its a very big reason to use absorb even in case of Defensive posture from shield skilline.
    And, wings 5,4 times expensive...
    Edited by Anethum on January 31, 2018 3:36PM
    @Anethum from .ua
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

    Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

    And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

    Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

    I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

    Saying that dampen magic is a 6k shield isnt very realistic. Even a normal build without too much max magicka can get a 10k+ shield. But anw shields as a mechanic doesnt scale well with more people either. That doesnt really say anything. And I didnt say wings are complete garbage. They are just very bad and unreliable in open world even tho that skill is supposed to be the backbone of DKs as a class.

    As far as wings vs shimmering are concerned the comparisons are very fair. It gives major heroism without cooldown. No class should have major heroism. Let alone without a cd. Who the hell thought that this was a good idea in a game with so many cheap ults.

    Major heroism should be implemented in a way to replace the old dynamic ult regen. Not just treat it as a normal buff like everything else. Its not a normal buff.

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