Shimmering shield vs Dragon Scales, simple compare after reading pattchnotes where i was hoping...

Anethum

to see a Real balance changes...

Shimmering shield cost 2432 mag on my stam warden (bosmer)) in heavy or medium, return mana from projectiles (astronomic number 18216 of damage from projectile absorbed...and 578 mag from every projectile), it gives Major heroism for 6 seconds each time without coldown...So u need only 698 (2432-578*3) magicka to cast it...698 mana cost hell...

And, for example we have Dragon scales on dk, the can reflect 4 projectiles...but not force pulce or warden's dive...give u while active +12% of healing recieved from passive and nothing else...cost on stamina dk is 3780 mana...

@ZOS_Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Dk's Dragon scales are 5,4 times more expencive than Warden's Shimmering Shield, which in addition saves from no matter how big projectiles and gives u Unique extremly usefull buff... What the hell is going on? Do u really think that Dive is only thing need to be fixed...Really?

Ragnarock41

diplomatt wrote: »

to see a Real balance changes...

Shimmering shield cost 2432 mag on my stam warden (bosmer)) in heavy or medium, return mana from projectiles (astronomic number 18216 of damage from projectile absorbed...and 578 mag from every projectile), it gives Major heroism for 6 seconds each time without coldown...So u need only 698 (2432-578*3) magicka to cast it...698 mana cost hell...

And, for example we have Dragon scales on dk, the can reflect 4 projectiles...but not force pulce or warden's dive...give u while active +12% of healing recieved from passive and nothing else...cost on stamina dk is 3780 mana...

@ZOS_Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Dk's Dragon scales are 5,4 times more expencive than Warden's Shimmering Shield, which in addition saves from no matter how big projectiles and gives u Unique extremly usefull buff... What the hell is going on? Do u really think that Dive is only thing need to be fixed...Really?

Lets not forget that %12 healing received is not something special to wings.

You get that passive normally for slotting spikes anyways.

Either way, Calm down, wings are broken and useless for years now. Its not something new. Problem is, if you buff wings, you're giving magDks even more cheese. yes, stamDK can't spam it, but magDks can easily have it up almost all the time.

Then why not have stamina wings? Because zos doesn't care about stamDks.

TimeDazzler

Should give the magicka return only and only if, you absorb 3 projectiles and reduce major heroism to only once per cast. In my opinion that would be a good start without completely butchering the ability. Come to think of it It'll still be great in OW and also finally make wardens actually have to time when to use it in duels n' not just mindlessly spam it. I doubt in a duel vs a good player they will ever hit you more than 3 times so you won't get the magicka return and thus won't be able to spam it; a lot more counter-play in duels while still being excellent vs zergs.

Anethum

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Then why not have stamina wings? Because zos doesn't care about stamDks.

Yup, it's one of the reasons i've taken for compare these 2 skills.
They closed thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4816342#Comment_4816342.
And now we have only these changes...I have no words

Ragnarock41

diplomatt wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Then why not have stamina wings? Because zos doesn't care about stamDks.

Yup, it's one of the reasons i've taken for compare these 2 skills.
They closed thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4816342#Comment_4816342.
And now we have only these changes...I have no words

We told it back when first morrowind came out, that shimmering shield is everything a stamDk can possibly dream of, yet they didn't listen because we did not ask nicely, beg for it and kiss their feets while at it.

Sixty5

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

Anethum

Cries wrote: »

Should give the magicka return only and only if you absorb 3 projectiles and reduce major heroism to only once per cast in my opinion would be a good start without completely butchering the ability.

its only example. same as Dive, same as Extended ritual, Power of the LIght, Implosion passive, Mages' wraith proc etc etc...real changes, real attention to all this in general, not only to one skill

krathos

Cries wrote: »

Should give the magicka return only and only if, you absorb 3 projectiles and reduce major heroism to only once per cast. In my opinion that would be a good start without completely butchering the ability. Come to think of it It'll still be great in OW and also finally make wardens actually have to time when to use it in duels n' not just mindlessly spam it. I doubt in a duel vs a good player they will ever hit you more than 3 times so you won't get the magicka return and thus won't be able to spam it; a lot more counter-play in duels while still being excellent vs zergs.

or make it minor heroism because major *** heroism is insane.

Anethum

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

Dk's almost doesn't use this skill because of it's cost and huge amount of skills which can't be reflected.
If before Spectral bow dk isn't cc-ed and still have this skill active with all nb's light attacks before it procs, I can't say nothing good about that nightblade.
Shimmering shield is extremly effective and cheap as hell.
One of the best examples of "balance"

krathos

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

ehhhh most of those reflects are light attacks lol reflect is strong but i can stay with confidence almost every DK would drop wings for shimmering shield given the chance.

IZZEFlameLash

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

krathos

IZZESparkling wrote: »

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

lord was reflecting meteors the most fun *** ever.

DKsUnite

krathos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

ehhhh most of those reflects are light attacks lol reflect is strong but i can stay with confidence almost every DK would drop wings for shimmering shield given the chance.

I would actually go back to *** coag only working with missing health and give up wings to have shimmering shield.

krathos

DKsUnite wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

ehhhh most of those reflects are light attacks lol reflect is strong but i can stay with confidence almost every DK would drop wings for shimmering shield given the chance.

I would actually go back to *** coag only working with missing health and give up wings to have shimmering shield.

yeah for real. its hands down one of the nuttiest skills in the game.

Ragnarock41

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

That is true, however this doesn't stop magblades from destroying magDks in duels, tho wings do make a big difference on their survivability, can't deny that.

IZZEFlameLash

krathos wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

lord was reflecting meteors the most fun *** ever.

Ah yes, "boom" => flap => meteor goes back to the caster. Good times lol.

I was groaning when I read shimmering shield tooltip. "That is so DK needed stuff." Major Heroism, fits for DK because it is 'stand your ground' class supposedly according to ZoS. How heroic is that?!

DKsUnite

IZZESparkling wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

lord was reflecting meteors the most fun *** ever.

Ah yes, "boom" => flap => meteor goes back to the caster. Good times lol.

I was groaning when I read shimmering shield tooltip. "That is so DK needed stuff." Major Heroism, fits for DK because it is 'stand your ground' class supposedly according to ZoS. How heroic is that?!

Instead they give it to a class that has the highest burst and best healing ulti in the game

ak_pvp

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

to see a Real balance changes...

Shimmering shield cost 2432 mag on my stam warden (bosmer)) in heavy or medium, return mana from projectiles (astronomic number 18216 of damage from projectile absorbed...and 578 mag from every projectile), it gives Major heroism for 6 seconds each time without coldown...So u need only 698 (2432-578*3) magicka to cast it...698 mana cost hell...

And, for example we have Dragon scales on dk, the can reflect 4 projectiles...but not force pulce or warden's dive...give u while active +12% of healing recieved from passive and nothing else...cost on stamina dk is 3780 mana...

@ZOS_Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Dk's Dragon scales are 5,4 times more expencive than Warden's Shimmering Shield, which in addition saves from no matter how big projectiles and gives u Unique extremly usefull buff... What the hell is going on? Do u really think that Dive is only thing need to be fixed...Really?

Lets not forget that %12 healing received is not something special to wings.

You get that passive normally for slotting spikes anyways.

Either way, Calm down, wings are broken and useless for years now. Its not something new. Problem is, if you buff wings, you're giving magDks even more cheese. yes, stamDK can't spam it, but magDks can easily have it up almost all the time.

Then why not have stamina wings? Because zos doesn't care about stamDks.

After block has been hit and whip/embers are dodgable I would quite like some cheese. Even on MDK if you are using it vs 2 ranged casters who aren't immune to it, (At that point its useless anyway) it has an uptime of literally 1s. Weave+attack.

Sixty5

diplomatt wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

Dk's almost doesn't use this skill because of it's cost and huge amount of skills which can't be reflected.
If before Spectral bow dk isn't cc-ed and still have this skill active with all nb's light attacks before it procs, I can't say nothing good about that nightblade.
Shimmering shield is extremly effective and cheap as hell.
One of the best examples of "balance"

Just pointing out that the real reason Shimmering is busted and wings are meh is more the other buffs it gives, rather than the effect itself.

If I had to tweak Wings, I'd cut the cost to 2k, make it last 1.5 seconds, and then reflect every projectile in that period
Make it more of an active defense thing rather than something you just throw up.

Recremen

krathos wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

lord was reflecting meteors the most fun *** ever.

They got rid of it because some of us starting running Guard Wings builds, from back when Guard would pull all projectiles in an area towards the caster. Granted, we wouldn't have had to start doing that if meteor wasn't literally breaking the game and giving unplayable 20-second lag but hey, that's water under the bridge now.

krathos

Recremen wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

If only DK would get ultimates for reflecting... that alone would be a boon.

lord was reflecting meteors the most fun *** ever.

They got rid of it because some of us starting running Guard Wings builds, from back when Guard would pull all projectiles in an area towards the caster. Granted, we wouldn't have had to start doing that if meteor wasn't literally breaking the game and giving unplayable 20-second lag but hey, that's water under the bridge now.

back in 1.6 i played a SB/2h stam nb and i would run the SB reflect just to see the reaction of a NB reflecting the meteor.

DKsUnite

Sixty5 wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

Dk's almost doesn't use this skill because of it's cost and huge amount of skills which can't be reflected.
If before Spectral bow dk isn't cc-ed and still have this skill active with all nb's light attacks before it procs, I can't say nothing good about that nightblade.
Shimmering shield is extremly effective and cheap as hell.
One of the best examples of "balance"

Just pointing out that the real reason Shimmering is busted and wings are meh is more the other buffs it gives, rather than the effect itself.

If I had to tweak Wings, I'd cut the cost to 2k, make it last 1.5 seconds, and then reflect every projectile in that period
Make it more of an active defense thing rather than something you just throw up.

It lasts 1.5 seconds anyways lol

Sixty5

DKsUnite wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to point out that in itself, Reflect is more powerful than Absorb.

I'd rather see my spectral bow proc get eaten up rather than critting myself for 12k.

Dk's almost doesn't use this skill because of it's cost and huge amount of skills which can't be reflected.
If before Spectral bow dk isn't cc-ed and still have this skill active with all nb's light attacks before it procs, I can't say nothing good about that nightblade.
Shimmering shield is extremly effective and cheap as hell.
One of the best examples of "balance"

Just pointing out that the real reason Shimmering is busted and wings are meh is more the other buffs it gives, rather than the effect itself.

If I had to tweak Wings, I'd cut the cost to 2k, make it last 1.5 seconds, and then reflect every projectile in that period
Make it more of an active defense thing rather than something you just throw up.

It lasts 1.5 seconds anyways lol

Hmm, then cut that down to 1 second flat then.

I've honestly never taken the ability on my DK, and the only experience I have fighting against it is on an overload mag sorc

Mojomonkeyman

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

pieratsos

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

Mojomonkeyman

pieratsos wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

Ragnarock41

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

Mojomonkeyman

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

That I can agree with. Nonethless, comparing a ... lets call it "average" skill to the single most overperforming skill in the game and demanding buffs based on that is very questionable in my opinion. Even moreso if attempting to downplay/neglect the strengths of the "average" skill even further. It's just not an objective analysis.

DDuke

Yeah, have to agree - wings could use some love.

But I wouldn't just straight up buff the ability, it's really strong already in 1v1 against sorcs, bow builds, magblades etc. In fact, it's a bit too strong vs certain builds when it can be sustained indefinitely (builds with high regen, e.g. Lich etc can do this).


Maybe they could make it a toggle that reflects infinite amount of projectiles, but stops your magicka/stamina regeneration entirely (and drains X magicka and/or stamina for every reflected projectile if this proves to be too strong)?

Derra

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys conveniently downplay a lot that Wings have the potential to reflect huge amounts of damage - I'm pretty sure the relative cost ratio of wings looks a lot sweeter when incorporating just a single reflected snipe into your "math".

Yes wings are extremely powerful in a 1v1. Problem is in open world you get hit by 4 stray light attacks and you basically wasted almost 4k magicka for nothing.

And what did ZOS do to help wings? Increased the duration and made it even more powerful in 1v1 since its much cheaper to keep it up and it can shut down ranged builds, while also leaving it almost useless in open world since the duration is irrelevant. Wings in open world didnt even last 4 seconds. What was the point of increasing its duration.

Well, four straight light attack can be around 6k dmg, my dampen magic doesnt absorb more and costs not much less. And Wings even reflect the same amount of dmg back to the attackers, so its not only 6k dmg absorbed, but also 6k dmg done. And that's one of the weakest possible scenarios. Just replace one light attack with a snipe and you have a really good cost/dmg mitigated/dmg done ratio for the skill (not even considering the additional perks).

I am not trying to say Wings is a great skill, I am trying to say its not as weak as some people make it out to be. And I am saying that all those shimmering vs. wings comparisons I see are not fair comparisons, since they always tend to conveniently forget or downplay the potential dmg done aspect to further support their agenda ("buff wings").

Wings isn't a bad skill. Its just not cost effective at all.
Problem is , you can't afford it when you need it, like you would on a warden. and it also doesn't benefit you indirectly, like, it doesnt give you major heroism or magicka return. damage reflection is kind of meaningless as no one will die to their own reflected snipes or frags.

I think the problem with wings is that it´s only useful in situations with 1 projectile build. It´s still grossly op when fighting projectile builds in such a 1v1 situation.
It trades well with even just lightattacks.

I´d reduce wings uptime to 2.5 to 2.8s and make it reflect unlimited projectiles again while adjusting the cost down by ~25%. That way it becomes less of an overpowering 1v1 tool vs projectiles but at the same time gains immense utility as a real defense mechanic again.

The extra dmg reflected morph seems fine - it could be merged with the small spellresi buff.
The other could provide root and snare immunity for the duration (come on that or speedbuff is just superfitting for wings idk why that hasn´t happened yet).

CrazYDunm3r

DDuke wrote: »

Yeah, have to agree - wings could use some love.

But I wouldn't just straight up buff the ability, it's really strong already in 1v1 against sorcs, bow builds, magblades etc. In fact, it's a bit too strong vs certain builds when it can be sustained indefinitely (builds with high regen, e.g. Lich etc can do this).


Maybe they could make it a toggle that reflects infinite amount of projectiles, but stops your magicka/stamina regeneration entirely (and drains X magicka and/or stamina for every reflected projectile if this proves to be too strong)?

I usually agree with you, but this would end up increasing the sustain problems even more, not even taking the stamina loss into account. Just lowering its cost would be fine imo, no buff, no nerf, just a cost reduction.
Edit: grammar related