Facefister wrote: »I think spell-crit wouldn't fit on Khajiit lore-wise. And I also think that Khajiit is fine as it is.
How to balance Bosmer? Remove the +6% Stamina and give them 1500 physical penetration.
Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
Change Carnage to Bloodlust: 2/4/6% Damage Done + 4/6/10% Max Health
This one thinks it would be fun... good for PvE, but bad for PvP.
Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
True every race "must" excel at something, but asking for changes that would practically homogenize race choice isn't particularly healthy for the game. Races should be changed that barring a few changes in play style, they are relatively equal regardless of content for the role they play. I dont want to see only khajiits in the leaderboards in trials for stam dps nor do I want to see only redguards and orcs (and bosmer snbs) in pvp either. Racial balance imo would be done if, with the exception of a few adjustments, the same player could pull the same numbers relatively speaking as desired to a degree making races more of personal prefenence. Better yet would to seperate racials and race making race purely ascetic and everything else being the same.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
LiquidPony wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Going off of Asayre's equations ...
Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...
DPS gain of +10% max stamina:
DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))
DPS gain = 4.8%
DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:
DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))
DPS gain = 4.5%
Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.
Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.
Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »So do I get this right? The current suggestion is:
12% spell/ weapon crit
10% max mag
10 % stam recovery
+ hp boost
20% health recovery
10% increased dmg from stealth
5% increased pickpocketing
3m smaller detection radius
LiquidPony wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Going off of Asayre's equations ...
Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...
DPS gain of +10% max stamina:
DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))
DPS gain = 4.8%
DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:
DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))
DPS gain = 4.5%
Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.
Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.
Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.
Alright, 10-12% spell and weapon crit with 10% max mag along with an hp boost?
Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
Joy_Division wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
No, you're asking to be BiS.
Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.
LiquidPony wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Going off of Asayre's equations ...
Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...
DPS gain of +10% max stamina:
DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))
DPS gain = 4.8%
DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:
DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))
DPS gain = 4.5%
Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.
Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.
Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.
Khajiit are just fine, I don't see why you'd want to change anything, except maybe make the crit bonus apply to spells as well (why not?).
Give them 6% stamina on top of everything and I see no reason not to run Khajiit in PvE, it becomes meta race for everyone - hardly ideal. My stamina DK is khajiit and trust me, there's no resource management issues there.
In PvP khajiit is fine, that 8% Crit Chance is good for both damage and healing (worth atleast 4% "healing done") and the 20% health regen is also powerful, especially if you run Troll King (and why wouldn't you, not running that set is a mistake considering how broken it is - but that's a topic for another day).
So compared to Wood Elf for example you're trading 11% stam regen 6% max stam & poison/disease resistance for: 20% health regen, 8% crit.
Sounds fair to me.
TrinityBreaker wrote: »Khajiit are just fine, I don't see why you'd want to change anything, except maybe make the crit bonus apply to spells as well (why not?).
Give them 6% stamina on top of everything and I see no reason not to run Khajiit in PvE, it becomes meta race for everyone - hardly ideal. My stamina DK is khajiit and trust me, there's no resource management issues there.
In PvP khajiit is fine, that 8% Crit Chance is good for both damage and healing (worth atleast 4% "healing done") and the 20% health regen is also powerful, especially if you run Troll King (and why wouldn't you, not running that set is a mistake considering how broken it is - but that's a topic for another day).
So compared to Wood Elf for example you're trading 11% stam regen 6% max stam & poison/disease resistance for: 20% health regen, 8% crit.
Sounds fair to me.
Watch that "Powerful" 20% Health regen get negated by a reverb bash/Dark Flare secondary affect/incap. Not meaning to come at you reckless but 11 out of the 12 toons I have are khajiit and that health recov is absolutely worthless. Also CP into Befoul is just overkill on the health regen passive.
Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
Joy_Division wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
No, you're asking to be BiS.
Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.
Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
No, you're asking to be BiS.
Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.
My statement that Nord has more utility than a Khajiit is purely PvP-based. Both have 20% health regeneration, so they negate each other on that. 8% crit in PvP, as I already mentioned, is very weak, not only due to being heavily countered by impenetrable, resistant etc, but also by the fact that PvP is so bursty that an 8% extra crit is barely noticable. And then you have the lackluster stealthy and nimble passives, which bring almost nothing to the table. Compare to the extra flat stats and damage mitigation that Nord gets. You still think Khajiit is better? Again, I am not saying Nord could not use some buffing. It is overall weaker when compared to other stamina races.
I'd take just giving them weapon crit and spell crit. It's not a buff per-se, since hybrid builds are still not real, but it lets people who play Khajiit not be as terrible when they're forced by circumstance to play magicka.
FlamingBeard wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Only way Khajiit will get a buff is if they buff Wood Elves, Nords and Bretons 1st.
Why do Bretons need a buff?
The Breton magicka cost reduction passive has needed a buff since the Morrowind sustain nerfs in my opinion.
I like the proposal for spell and weapon crit. And I would love to see a stamina bonus.
Here's another idea. Why not buff the Health Recovery passive? I don't think that would be more powerful than the Bosmer stamina recovery passive, for example, and would allow for some interesting new builds.
dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »I like the proposal for spell and weapon crit. And I would love to see a stamina bonus.
Here's another idea. Why not buff the Health Recovery passive? I don't think that would be more powerful than the Bosmer stamina recovery passive, for example, and would allow for some interesting new builds.
They nerfed all health recovery in a major way when they had defile effect it.
Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
LiquidPony wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Going off of Asayre's equations ...
Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...
DPS gain of +10% max stamina:
DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))
DPS gain = 4.8%
DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:
DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))
DPS gain = 4.5%
Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.
Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.
Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.