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A buff to Khajiit?

  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    People, you are all looking at it wrong. Try imagining redguard does not exist for the moment and suddenly all the stamina racial choices look much more balanced. Bosmer vs Khajiit vs Orc vs Imperial all look like meaningful choice. Some of them have more damage, some more sustain and some more utility. Yes, there are still clear winners given nature of the game (for example orc much better than bosmer for stamsorc or heavy armor build, bosmer overall not so great for pve, khajiit overall not so great for pvp, imperial much better for tanking than all 3 of them and I could list many other).

    Even nord does not look that bad, but would be probably overshadowed by combination of imperial and orc for any tanking/brawling related setups in pve/pvp.

    Redguard is problem why all other races just look so bad most of the time and need super situational builds to gain benefit (like synergy of nightblade and high regen, or stamsorc and mobility or imperial and high health or trollking and health recovery)

    If redguard lost 4% of his max stam, people (redguard users) would obviously cry all over the forum about ZoS again nerfing instead of buffing and about getting money from race change (tbh if any significant changes to race happen - as they should - I hope ZoS will consider temporary cheap/free race change), but in the end... few months later once all tears dry up (like with templar tears after Morrowind patch), nobody would think redguard is weak race and it would still, along with khajiit, be one of the most popular races in endgame and still literally the best race for PVE for builds/people that struggle with sustain.

    Templars are still qqing about their skills not working, I say it is better to either buff the other races or discouple races from racials amd call them "proventials" or something or greatly reduce them all together having only 1 racial and 1 extra "fun" racial with the fun racials being 1% gold for imperials, or 15% more up time on drinks for nords and etc

    Making the game more shallow? Sure thing. Worked out very well for SWTOR iirc.

    What's wrong with making race purely aesthetic and "racials" being a choice? Promotes the "play as you want" aspect of the game which was advertised.

    Play as you want is dead. If it hasn't been dead from the get go, it died when they removed softcaps and introduced the cp system. Removing racials won't make that promise come true either.

    Right now you build a khajiit stam sorc differently from an redguard stam sorc. That is diversity and good for the game. Making everything the same, opening every option up for everyone will kill diversity. What will happen if that comes true? Do you think anyone would pick any other racial set than what was considered BiS before? No. You will see different models but everyone runs the same "best" passives, e.g. the redguard ones for a stam char.

    Only solution to fullfill that promise at least a bit is to make racials balanced. Balanced does not mean same/ same. It means sometimes better, sometimes worse - like in "occasionally better or worse than something else".

    Therefore, yes, khajiit can use a buff. But nothing that makes them undoubtedly BiS for every stam build, like some of the posters suggest. If that also means nerfing something that clearly overperfoms, so be it. But making choices irrelevant is never a good idea.

    This is what I orignally suggested, but when people disagreed with that, there came my seperation suggestion. I say, to buff khajiit, buff the weapon crit to 10% and give an equal amount of spell crit and mag regen. Now that I think about orc, a 6% hp boost maybe not optimal.

    Buff Breton cost reduction while youre at it
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 4/8/12%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 500 Max Health and 400 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 4 seconds.

    Orc
    Brawny - Increase Max Health and Stamina by 3/5/7%
    Based on feedback, I wanted to update Orcs so that it won't be completely outclassed by Khajiit and a very minor Stamina and health buff might be enough to keep them on the map

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    Edit: Updated based on feedback.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 3, 2018 2:50PM
    Argonian forever
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    Thesee changes I can mostly agree on. I would go with the damahe reduction and regen on getting hit for nord however, the stam regen increase on khajiit may make bosmer redundant, and now that it was mentioned, Im slightly worried about khajiit vs orc now, bit it may be fine anyway. Otherwise, I can get behind this.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    Thesee changes I can mostly agree on. I would go with the damahe reduction and regen on getting hit for nord however, the stam regen increase on khajiit may make bosmer redundant, and now that it was mentioned, Im slightly worried about khajiit vs orc now, bit it may be fine anyway. Otherwise, I can get behind this.

    In that case, leave the Khajiit Stamina Regen as is or just slightly buffed to 12% instead of my suggested 15%, up Orcs Health and Stamina to 7% and everyone should be good.
    Argonian forever
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    I can agree with a couple of the changes like with maybe Nord and Breton but the rest are closer to nerfs than they are buffs and certainly won't make anyone choose those classes any more than they are now.

    With Khajiit you're losing more damage than you're gaining trading 3% Stamina for 4% less damage in Stealth. Trading 6% health for the 20% Health Recovery is also not an upgrade because the main class Khajiit is played as most is Nightblade and without Heavy Armor which is non-meta for a NB 6% health is not nearly as beneficial as the 20% health recovery combined with Troll King. And so the only buff you're getting is 5% more Stam Recovery and that alone isn't going to make up for Redguard which currently has 3x the Stamina sustain.

    Same with the Stealthy change for Bosmer, 3% Stamina equates to less damage than you lose from the bonus in Stealth.

    And with Imperial if they're going to just keep the Red Diamond passive instead of scrapping it altogether in favor of something else which is what I'd like to see then the resource return needs to be noticeable. 300 Health and 200 Stamina and Magicka with a 5 second cooldown isn't and because it's split up into 3 different small resource returns it ends up not helping you stay alive or use a skill. The reason Redguard's Adrenaline passive has always been impactful is because you get enough Stamina back when it procs that you can usually immediately cast a Skill if you were low on Stamina.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    I can agree with a couple of the changes like with maybe Nord and Breton but the rest are closer to nerfs than they are buffs and certainly won't make anyone choose those classes any more than they are now.

    With Khajiit you're losing more damage than you're gaining trading 3% Stamina for 4% less damage in Stealth. Trading 6% health for the 20% Health Recovery is also not an upgrade because the main class Khajiit is played as most is Nightblade and without Heavy Armor which is non-meta for a NB 6% health is not nearly as beneficial as the 20% health recovery combined with Troll King. And so the only buff you're getting is 5% more Stam Recovery and that alone isn't going to make up for Redguard which currently has 3x the Stamina sustain.

    Same with the Stealthy change for Bosmer, 3% Stamina equates to less damage than you lose from the bonus in Stealth.

    And with Imperial if they're going to just keep the Red Diamond passive instead of scrapping it altogether in favor of something else which is what I'd like to see then the resource return needs to be noticeable. 300 Health and 200 Stamina and Magicka with a 5 second cooldown isn't and because it's split up into 3 different small resource returns it ends up not helping you stay alive or use a skill. The reason Redguard's Adrenaline passive has always been impactful is because you get enough Stamina back when it procs that you can usually immediately cast a Skill if you were low on Stamina.

    The numbers on Red Diamond can be adjusted as needed to be helpful. My issue, however, is that you are attempting to balance based only on PvP instead of both PvP and PvE. In PvE, Stealthy is useless in 95% of situations whereas the extra health and stamina on Khajiit and stamina on Bosmer would make them more desirable overall choices there, while also still being useful in PvP as well. You can't balance everything based on how something performs in only 1 area of the game, nor can you balance with buffs only. Saying Khajiit/Bosmer is fine because their NBs in PvP are great is not balance because it neglects all the DKs, Sorcs, Warden and Templar Khajiits/Bosmers and PvE entirely. Tell me how you would buff Khajiit/Bosmer so that their PvP game is not improved but the other classes and PvE would benefit?
    Argonian forever
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    I just wish people would quit shoehorning khajiit into a stamina dps only race, it goes quite against their lore/background and is based entirely on a stereotype driven by the last couple of elder scrolls games.

    To explain: Khajiit culture doesnt have any concept of ownership. "If I'm holding it, it's mine. if you leave it on the table, it's mine. If I want it, it's mine." They become thieves and cutpurses outside of elsweyr because of that, and based on so many of them being gutter rats in morrowind or cyrodiil or skyrim we've come to this conclusion that all khajiit must be thieves, and thieves can only be medium armor wearing, dagger wielding rogues.

    That stereotype leaves out the fact that the khajiit have 16 different subspecies in elsweyr, few of which are actually suited to being 'rogue' type individuals. The suthay that we saw in morrowind and whatever subspecies has been portrayed in ESO is only a fraction of the whole.

    Cathay/Cathay-Raht khajiit are muscular, stand taller than an altmer, and are more than capable of being frontline warriors for the dominion (this is relatively well represented by making a khajiit with maxxed height/muscle mass in ESO, though the height slider doesnt allow as much variation as it should IMO).
    Alfiq (the 'housecat' khajiit) and Ohmes (the khajiit which look more like bosmer) are both supposed to have excellent spellcasting capabilities, on par with a breton or altmer in many cases.
    Suthay and Dagi khajiit are lanky, thin, and small, and make good rogues, scouts, and thieves.

    So yes, I do think that khajiit racials should support them being a jack of all trades race. It is entirely likely that they were lumped with the dominion to be frontline fighters, where the bosmer are the primary rogues and the altmer are the primary spellcasters. Each of the alliances has that kind of setup, but the racials dont always reflect it (covenant: breton spellcasters, orc fighters, redguard rogues. Pact: Dunmer spellcasters, nord fighters, argonian rogues).
    It's written into the creationist myth for khajiit, where azurah took the "forest children" from nirni and turned them into khajiit, to be the fastest, most beautiful, most clever, and most versatile species in order to survive the cursed land they ended up in (the deserts and poison jungles of elsweyr).


    So I say again, this is what the passives for khajiit should look like:

    Nimble - Increases Max health by 2/4/6%, and increases stamina and magicka recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy - Reduces detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters and increases damage in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage (Rename to Keen Eye) - Increases weapon and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%


    This gives khajiit a little more health to fill a tanking role (rather than health recovery, which is useless). It gives them magicka recovery and spell critical to fill a caster role, and it keeps their current stealth benefits, stamina recovery and weapon critical to fill a rogue role. None of these make them overtly better than any other race at any particular role, but it makes them more versatile overall. It also makes khajiit a prime choice for hybrid builds, despite them being pretty subpar right now.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Aztlan
    Aztlan
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    That is the best post in this entire thread. This one agrees!
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    I can agree with a couple of the changes like with maybe Nord and Breton but the rest are closer to nerfs than they are buffs and certainly won't make anyone choose those classes any more than they are now.

    With Khajiit you're losing more damage than you're gaining trading 3% Stamina for 4% less damage in Stealth. Trading 6% health for the 20% Health Recovery is also not an upgrade because the main class Khajiit is played as most is Nightblade and without Heavy Armor which is non-meta for a NB 6% health is not nearly as beneficial as the 20% health recovery combined with Troll King. And so the only buff you're getting is 5% more Stam Recovery and that alone isn't going to make up for Redguard which currently has 3x the Stamina sustain.

    Same with the Stealthy change for Bosmer, 3% Stamina equates to less damage than you lose from the bonus in Stealth.

    And with Imperial if they're going to just keep the Red Diamond passive instead of scrapping it altogether in favor of something else which is what I'd like to see then the resource return needs to be noticeable. 300 Health and 200 Stamina and Magicka with a 5 second cooldown isn't and because it's split up into 3 different small resource returns it ends up not helping you stay alive or use a skill. The reason Redguard's Adrenaline passive has always been impactful is because you get enough Stamina back when it procs that you can usually immediately cast a Skill if you were low on Stamina.

    The numbers on Red Diamond can be adjusted as needed to be helpful. My issue, however, is that you are attempting to balance based only on PvP instead of both PvP and PvE. In PvE, Stealthy is useless in 95% of situations whereas the extra health and stamina on Khajiit and stamina on Bosmer would make them more desirable overall choices there, while also still being useful in PvP as well. You can't balance everything based on how something performs in only 1 area of the game, nor can you balance with buffs only. Saying Khajiit/Bosmer is fine because their NBs in PvP are great is not balance because it neglects all the DKs, Sorcs, Warden and Templar Khajiits/Bosmers and PvE entirely. Tell me how you would buff Khajiit/Bosmer so that their PvP game is not improved but the other classes and PvE would benefit?

    I get wanting buffs for PvE but at the very least it needs to not be a nerf to the class in PvP which giving up 20% health recovery for 6% health and giving up 4% damage in stealth for 3% Stamina both are. Khajiit is already behind Redguard, Argonian, and Bosmer in PvP so any changes for PvE has to be at least a minor buff in PvP or it's not worth it.

    For Khajiit I would give them something like the 15% Stam Recovery and then buff the Crit bonus more to at least 12%. I would also increase the Health Recovery bonus back to 30% like it used to be considering in this patch they are again nerfing health recovery by making Major Defile apply to Troll King as well.

    With the above change Khajiit would be improved in both PvE and PvP, Redguard would still have better sustain with 9% Recovery + Adrenaline but Khajiit would have a little more clear advantage in DPS.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I just wish people would quit shoehorning khajiit into a stamina dps only race, it goes quite against their lore/background and is based entirely on a stereotype driven by the last couple of elder scrolls games.

    To explain: Khajiit culture doesnt have any concept of ownership. "If I'm holding it, it's mine. if you leave it on the table, it's mine. If I want it, it's mine." They become thieves and cutpurses outside of elsweyr because of that, and based on so many of them being gutter rats in morrowind or cyrodiil or skyrim we've come to this conclusion that all khajiit must be thieves, and thieves can only be medium armor wearing, dagger wielding rogues.

    That stereotype leaves out the fact that the khajiit have 16 different subspecies in elsweyr, few of which are actually suited to being 'rogue' type individuals. The suthay that we saw in morrowind and whatever subspecies has been portrayed in ESO is only a fraction of the whole.

    Cathay/Cathay-Raht khajiit are muscular, stand taller than an altmer, and are more than capable of being frontline warriors for the dominion (this is relatively well represented by making a khajiit with maxxed height/muscle mass in ESO, though the height slider doesnt allow as much variation as it should IMO).
    Alfiq (the 'housecat' khajiit) and Ohmes (the khajiit which look more like bosmer) are both supposed to have excellent spellcasting capabilities, on par with a breton or altmer in many cases.
    Suthay and Dagi khajiit are lanky, thin, and small, and make good rogues, scouts, and thieves.

    So yes, I do think that khajiit racials should support them being a jack of all trades race. It is entirely likely that they were lumped with the dominion to be frontline fighters, where the bosmer are the primary rogues and the altmer are the primary spellcasters. Each of the alliances has that kind of setup, but the racials dont always reflect it (covenant: breton spellcasters, orc fighters, redguard rogues. Pact: Dunmer spellcasters, nord fighters, argonian rogues).
    It's written into the creationist myth for khajiit, where azurah took the "forest children" from nirni and turned them into khajiit, to be the fastest, most beautiful, most clever, and most versatile species in order to survive the cursed land they ended up in (the deserts and poison jungles of elsweyr).


    So I say again, this is what the passives for khajiit should look like:

    Nimble - Increases Max health by 2/4/6%, and increases stamina and magicka recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy - Reduces detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters and increases damage in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage (Rename to Keen Eye) - Increases weapon and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%


    This gives khajiit a little more health to fill a tanking role (rather than health recovery, which is useless). It gives them magicka recovery and spell critical to fill a caster role, and it keeps their current stealth benefits, stamina recovery and weapon critical to fill a rogue role. None of these make them overtly better than any other race at any particular role, but it makes them more versatile overall. It also makes khajiit a prime choice for hybrid builds, despite them being pretty subpar right now.

    Here is the problem with this train of thought. Khajiit comes in all shapes and sizes and if we had all 16 Khajiit sub races to play, then I would support making each have unique racials based on that sub race. We do not. We are given the nimble, thieving Khajiit and their passives currently reflect that.You are suggesting that Khajiit get more regen than an Altmer and potentially more damage than a Breton, when the lore of both races suggests they are the superior magical races, with Dunmer boasting similar claims. You cannot cherry pick 1 race's lore and disregard the other races because that isn't how balance works. Now, if you want them to be a jack of all trades, they also need to be the masters of none to balance them out. Meaning, that 10% magic and stamina regen gets nerfed to 5% each and their crit bonus gets nerfed to 4% each because it would not be fair in any regards to every other race otherwise.

    Khajiit is now the worst race for everything but at least they can do it all.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 3, 2018 12:55AM
    Argonian forever
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I just wish people would quit shoehorning khajiit into a stamina dps only race, it goes quite against their lore/background and is based entirely on a stereotype driven by the last couple of elder scrolls games.

    To explain: Khajiit culture doesnt have any concept of ownership. "If I'm holding it, it's mine. if you leave it on the table, it's mine. If I want it, it's mine." They become thieves and cutpurses outside of elsweyr because of that, and based on so many of them being gutter rats in morrowind or cyrodiil or skyrim we've come to this conclusion that all khajiit must be thieves, and thieves can only be medium armor wearing, dagger wielding rogues.

    That stereotype leaves out the fact that the khajiit have 16 different subspecies in elsweyr, few of which are actually suited to being 'rogue' type individuals. The suthay that we saw in morrowind and whatever subspecies has been portrayed in ESO is only a fraction of the whole.

    Cathay/Cathay-Raht khajiit are muscular, stand taller than an altmer, and are more than capable of being frontline warriors for the dominion (this is relatively well represented by making a khajiit with maxxed height/muscle mass in ESO, though the height slider doesnt allow as much variation as it should IMO).
    Alfiq (the 'housecat' khajiit) and Ohmes (the khajiit which look more like bosmer) are both supposed to have excellent spellcasting capabilities, on par with a breton or altmer in many cases.
    Suthay and Dagi khajiit are lanky, thin, and small, and make good rogues, scouts, and thieves.

    So yes, I do think that khajiit racials should support them being a jack of all trades race. It is entirely likely that they were lumped with the dominion to be frontline fighters, where the bosmer are the primary rogues and the altmer are the primary spellcasters. Each of the alliances has that kind of setup, but the racials dont always reflect it (covenant: breton spellcasters, orc fighters, redguard rogues. Pact: Dunmer spellcasters, nord fighters, argonian rogues).
    It's written into the creationist myth for khajiit, where azurah took the "forest children" from nirni and turned them into khajiit, to be the fastest, most beautiful, most clever, and most versatile species in order to survive the cursed land they ended up in (the deserts and poison jungles of elsweyr).


    So I say again, this is what the passives for khajiit should look like:

    Nimble - Increases Max health by 2/4/6%, and increases stamina and magicka recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy - Reduces detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters and increases damage in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage (Rename to Keen Eye) - Increases weapon and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%


    This gives khajiit a little more health to fill a tanking role (rather than health recovery, which is useless). It gives them magicka recovery and spell critical to fill a caster role, and it keeps their current stealth benefits, stamina recovery and weapon critical to fill a rogue role. None of these make them overtly better than any other race at any particular role, but it makes them more versatile overall. It also makes khajiit a prime choice for hybrid builds, despite them being pretty subpar right now.

    Here is the problem with this train of thought. Khajiit comes in all shapes and sizes and if we had all 16 Khajiit sub races to play, then I would support making each have unique racials based on that sub race. We do not. We are given the nimble, thieving Khajiit and their passives currently reflect that.You are suggesting that Khajiit get more regen than an Altmer and potentially more damage than a Breton, when the lore of both races suggests they are the superior magical races, with Dunmer boasting similar claims. You cannot cherry pick 1 race's lore and disregard the other races because that isn't how balance works. Now, if you want them to be a jack of all trades, they also need to be the masters of none to balance them out. Meaning, that 10% magic and stamina regen gets nerfed to 5% each and their crit bonus gets nerfed to 4% each because it would not be fair in any regards to every other race otherwise.

    Khajiit is now the worst race for everything but at least they can do it all.

    You're telling me that 8% spell crit is worth more than 10% max magicka and 4% spell damage? Or that 10% recovery is worth more than 3% reduced cost (again, bretons have 10% max magicka, which will always give you more damage than 8% spell crit).

    If that were true, khajiit would still be the best stamina race right now with 10% stamina recovery and 8% weapon crit, but they're far from it. 8% crit, in most cases, translates to 4-6% damage bonus overall depending on critical damage value, and that's only in pve. In PvP, 8% crit is relatively worthless considering how many people run impen.

    My suggestion only offers similar magicka bonuses to the stamina bonuses khajiit already get, and a slight health boost at the cost of removing health recovery. I hardly consider that better than an altmer or breton as a spellcaster.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    I'm just going to suggest all my ideas for racial buffs across the board and say screw it all

    Nord
    Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
    Rugged - Reduce Block Cost by 2/3/4% and Restore 2/3/4% more resources on Heavy Attacks.
    Nords loses out on the old damage reduction it previously had but gains cheaper block costs as well as more resource return on Heavy Attacks.. I think it's a fair trade off since Rugged suffers horribly from diminish returns that it only ever really mitigated like 1-2% damage.
    OR
    Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
    Not a big fan of this one over the other but it lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit.

    Breton
    Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%
    Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race

    Khajiit
    Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 5/10/15%
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    OMG I NERFED STEALTHY. Big deal. You got 3% Stamina, 6% health and a 5% buff to stamina regen and all it cost was 20% health recovery and 4% stealth damage.

    Bosmer
    Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
    Same as Khajiit. Less damage from stealth, more Max Stamina.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 300 Max Health and 200 Max Stamina + Max Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 5 seconds.

    The rest of the races are fine, IMO but I'm sure others will disagree so I'm not touching them.

    I can agree with a couple of the changes like with maybe Nord and Breton but the rest are closer to nerfs than they are buffs and certainly won't make anyone choose those classes any more than they are now.

    With Khajiit you're losing more damage than you're gaining trading 3% Stamina for 4% less damage in Stealth. Trading 6% health for the 20% Health Recovery is also not an upgrade because the main class Khajiit is played as most is Nightblade and without Heavy Armor which is non-meta for a NB 6% health is not nearly as beneficial as the 20% health recovery combined with Troll King. And so the only buff you're getting is 5% more Stam Recovery and that alone isn't going to make up for Redguard which currently has 3x the Stamina sustain.

    Same with the Stealthy change for Bosmer, 3% Stamina equates to less damage than you lose from the bonus in Stealth.

    And with Imperial if they're going to just keep the Red Diamond passive instead of scrapping it altogether in favor of something else which is what I'd like to see then the resource return needs to be noticeable. 300 Health and 200 Stamina and Magicka with a 5 second cooldown isn't and because it's split up into 3 different small resource returns it ends up not helping you stay alive or use a skill. The reason Redguard's Adrenaline passive has always been impactful is because you get enough Stamina back when it procs that you can usually immediately cast a Skill if you were low on Stamina.

    The numbers on Red Diamond can be adjusted as needed to be helpful. My issue, however, is that you are attempting to balance based only on PvP instead of both PvP and PvE. In PvE, Stealthy is useless in 95% of situations whereas the extra health and stamina on Khajiit and stamina on Bosmer would make them more desirable overall choices there, while also still being useful in PvP as well. You can't balance everything based on how something performs in only 1 area of the game, nor can you balance with buffs only. Saying Khajiit/Bosmer is fine because their NBs in PvP are great is not balance because it neglects all the DKs, Sorcs, Warden and Templar Khajiits/Bosmers and PvE entirely. Tell me how you would buff Khajiit/Bosmer so that their PvP game is not improved but the other classes and PvE would benefit?

    I get wanting buffs for PvE but at the very least it needs to not be a nerf to the class in PvP which giving up 20% health recovery for 6% health and giving up 4% damage in stealth for 3% Stamina both are. Khajiit is already behind Redguard, Argonian, and Bosmer in PvP so any changes for PvE has to be at least a minor buff in PvP or it's not worth it.

    For Khajiit I would give them something like the 15% Stam Recovery and then buff the Crit bonus more to at least 12%. I would also increase the Health Recovery bonus back to 30% like it used to be considering in this patch they are again nerfing health recovery by making Major Defile apply to Troll King as well.

    With the above change Khajiit would be improved in both PvE and PvP, Redguard would still have better sustain with 9% Recovery + Adrenaline but Khajiit would have a little more clear advantage in DPS.

    Nerfs are just as required as buffs, else it makes power creep even worse. While you're suggestion might not sound unbalanced, we have to consider that it's not just Redguards that we need to balance for. Orcs are barely hanging on as well because they currently do damage that is on par, if not superior, to Redguard but if Khajiit do more damage than Orcs, they suffer for it. I had initially forgot about Orcs in my consideration as well and amended that they get a minor increase to keep this status as well. It also encroaches on Bosmers that are still struggling to be out of Redguard's shadow at all as well and already fall behind Khajiit in damage that adding even more damage as well as a regen buff would just push poor Bosmer further down the line as far as PvE balance is concerned.
    Argonian forever
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I just wish people would quit shoehorning khajiit into a stamina dps only race, it goes quite against their lore/background and is based entirely on a stereotype driven by the last couple of elder scrolls games.

    To explain: Khajiit culture doesnt have any concept of ownership. "If I'm holding it, it's mine. if you leave it on the table, it's mine. If I want it, it's mine." They become thieves and cutpurses outside of elsweyr because of that, and based on so many of them being gutter rats in morrowind or cyrodiil or skyrim we've come to this conclusion that all khajiit must be thieves, and thieves can only be medium armor wearing, dagger wielding rogues.

    That stereotype leaves out the fact that the khajiit have 16 different subspecies in elsweyr, few of which are actually suited to being 'rogue' type individuals. The suthay that we saw in morrowind and whatever subspecies has been portrayed in ESO is only a fraction of the whole.

    Cathay/Cathay-Raht khajiit are muscular, stand taller than an altmer, and are more than capable of being frontline warriors for the dominion (this is relatively well represented by making a khajiit with maxxed height/muscle mass in ESO, though the height slider doesnt allow as much variation as it should IMO).
    Alfiq (the 'housecat' khajiit) and Ohmes (the khajiit which look more like bosmer) are both supposed to have excellent spellcasting capabilities, on par with a breton or altmer in many cases.
    Suthay and Dagi khajiit are lanky, thin, and small, and make good rogues, scouts, and thieves.

    So yes, I do think that khajiit racials should support them being a jack of all trades race. It is entirely likely that they were lumped with the dominion to be frontline fighters, where the bosmer are the primary rogues and the altmer are the primary spellcasters. Each of the alliances has that kind of setup, but the racials dont always reflect it (covenant: breton spellcasters, orc fighters, redguard rogues. Pact: Dunmer spellcasters, nord fighters, argonian rogues).
    It's written into the creationist myth for khajiit, where azurah took the "forest children" from nirni and turned them into khajiit, to be the fastest, most beautiful, most clever, and most versatile species in order to survive the cursed land they ended up in (the deserts and poison jungles of elsweyr).


    So I say again, this is what the passives for khajiit should look like:

    Nimble - Increases Max health by 2/4/6%, and increases stamina and magicka recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy - Reduces detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters and increases damage in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage (Rename to Keen Eye) - Increases weapon and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%


    This gives khajiit a little more health to fill a tanking role (rather than health recovery, which is useless). It gives them magicka recovery and spell critical to fill a caster role, and it keeps their current stealth benefits, stamina recovery and weapon critical to fill a rogue role. None of these make them overtly better than any other race at any particular role, but it makes them more versatile overall. It also makes khajiit a prime choice for hybrid builds, despite them being pretty subpar right now.

    Here is the problem with this train of thought. Khajiit comes in all shapes and sizes and if we had all 16 Khajiit sub races to play, then I would support making each have unique racials based on that sub race. We do not. We are given the nimble, thieving Khajiit and their passives currently reflect that.You are suggesting that Khajiit get more regen than an Altmer and potentially more damage than a Breton, when the lore of both races suggests they are the superior magical races, with Dunmer boasting similar claims. You cannot cherry pick 1 race's lore and disregard the other races because that isn't how balance works. Now, if you want them to be a jack of all trades, they also need to be the masters of none to balance them out. Meaning, that 10% magic and stamina regen gets nerfed to 5% each and their crit bonus gets nerfed to 4% each because it would not be fair in any regards to every other race otherwise.

    Khajiit is now the worst race for everything but at least they can do it all.

    You're telling me that 8% spell crit is worth more than 10% max magicka and 4% spell damage? Or that 10% recovery is worth more than 3% reduced cost (again, bretons have 10% max magicka, which will always give you more damage than 8% spell crit).

    If that were true, khajiit would still be the best stamina race right now with 10% stamina recovery and 8% weapon crit, but they're far from it. 8% crit, in most cases, translates to 4-6% damage bonus overall depending on critical damage value, and that's only in pve. In PvP, 8% crit is relatively worthless considering how many people run impen.

    My suggestion only offers similar magicka bonuses to the stamina bonuses khajiit already get, and a slight health boost at the cost of removing health recovery. I hardly consider that better than an altmer or breton as a spellcaster.

    Altmer has 9% regen and outperforms Breton in every single area, including sustain. It stands to reason then that a Khajiit with 10% magic regen would also do better in sustain than a Breton, and Altmer if we're being perfectly frank. I also only stated that it could potentially do more damage than Breton only not Altmer. Breton is already struggling to be relevant without Khajiit being thrown into the mix as a better Sustain race with damage that is close to, if not on par with, them as well. Again, it's just not balanced from any perspective that it's astonishing that you can say that it would be with a straight face.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 3, 2018 2:28PM
    Argonian forever
  • Finedaible
    Finedaible
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    A lot of different perspectives here, and some good ideas.

    I don't believe reverting Carnage so that it affects spell and weapon critical would be overpowered since Khajiit were already nerfed indirectly on the crit front due to standing stone tweaks. You would still have to build towards either weapon or spell crit to be optimal, but you would at least have a choice to go mage or warrior (build diversity). Players could still try out hybrid builds too, even if they aren't optimal. Maybe even raise the % to 10% from 8%.

    I do think Khajiit should have either a stamina, magicka, or health bonus since they are the only race that has none while other races have a stat bonus, and some also have recovery compounded on top, making their sustain a lot easier (or rather, more relevant) since the changes from Morrowind patch.

    I like the suggested idea of an evasion stat, but i'm not sure of the implications this would have with Major and minor evasion. It would give them a neat stat for build diversity if the player wished to play a tank though.
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    The solution to Nord is to change percentage-based damage reduction to numeric physical resistance buff equal to Breton spell resistance buff. This one change adjusts the mitigation equation enough to make the nord a quite worthwhile tanking race by reducing the brutal diminishing returns in damage mitigation such that the Nord can devote CP, sets, and slots to goals other than physical resistances.

    As a khajiit stamblade main, the most balanced 'rebalancing' in my opinion would be to raise the stamina recovery bonus to 20%, and keep all the other passives the same. That health recovery does have use for brawlers in pvp and Off-tank DDs in PvE (where defile reductions should always be purged by the healer immediately after application anyway). This rebalance scheme preservers the khajiit's niche of critical damage while lessening what is perceived as their core weakness (sustain) without crowding out the races that specialize in sustain.

    This post is ridiculous. It might make some minor level of sense if Nords had more stam power.

    No. It isn't ridiculous.

    Changing the way the Nord damage mitigation passive is calculated would lower the opportunity cost of being a Nord for the purposes of tanking, and would allow them to approach point and skill investments in a unique way. Nothing in this post is meant to address Nord DPS, and their "stam power" is just fine for tanking.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
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