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A buff to Khajiit?

  • IlCanis_LupuslI
    IlCanis_LupuslI
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    Facefister wrote: »
    I think spell-crit wouldn't fit on Khajiit lore-wise. And I also think that Khajiit is fine as it is.

    How to balance Bosmer? Remove the +6% Stamina and give them 1500 physical penetration.

    HELL NO! Leave my Bosmer alone we already have 1 useless passive(2 in Pve) we dont need 2 useless race passives (all in pve)1.5k pen?? thats what like 2% damage? despite the regen beeing useless in pve
    Cp 1490
    Xbox-EU-AD
    Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
    Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
    Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
    Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
    Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.
  • MinuitPro
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    Change Carnage to Bloodlust: 2/4/6% Damage Done + 4/6/10% Max Health

    This one thinks it would be fun... good for PvE, but bad for PvP.
  • JobooAGS
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    True every race "must" excel at something, but asking for changes that would practically homogenize race choice isn't particularly healthy for the game. Races should be changed that barring a few changes in play style, they are relatively equal regardless of content for the role they play. I dont want to see only khajiits in the leaderboards in trials for stam dps nor do I want to see only redguards and orcs (and bosmer snbs) in pvp either. Racial balance imo would be done if, with the exception of a few adjustments, the same player could pull the same numbers relatively speaking as desired to a degree making races more of personal prefenence. Better yet would to seperate racials and race making race purely ascetic and everything else being the same.
  • Ahzek
    Ahzek
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    MinuitPro wrote: »
    Change Carnage to Bloodlust: 2/4/6% Damage Done + 4/6/10% Max Health

    This one thinks it would be fun... good for PvE, but bad for PvP.

    That ... would be the most ridiculously powerful racial passive in the entire game. Have you missed the part where Altmer get +6% dmg done only for elemental damage ? And that is already really good in both PvE and PvP. Orcs get 4% physical damage and are top tier for some PvP builds.
    Jo'Khaljor
  • MinuitPro
    MinuitPro
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    True every race "must" excel at something, but asking for changes that would practically homogenize race choice isn't particularly healthy for the game. Races should be changed that barring a few changes in play style, they are relatively equal regardless of content for the role they play. I dont want to see only khajiits in the leaderboards in trials for stam dps nor do I want to see only redguards and orcs (and bosmer snbs) in pvp either. Racial balance imo would be done if, with the exception of a few adjustments, the same player could pull the same numbers relatively speaking as desired to a degree making races more of personal prefenence. Better yet would to seperate racials and race making race purely ascetic and everything else being the same.

    Interesting idea. While a bowl of kittens is cute, one would get sick of them after a while. Variety is the spice.
    Edited by MinuitPro on January 31, 2018 7:25PM
  • OdinForge
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    I don't know about PvE but Khajiit seems fine for me from a PvP perspective. Redguard and Bosmer are really good races to pick for stamblade, but Khajiit has really good PvP synergy with nightblade.

    For 1vX I prefer stacking HP regen with typical healing sources, than just simply having higher stamina pool and thus a stronger vigor tooltip. If I wanted to build my nightblade specifically for 1v1s I'd probably opt back for Redguard over Khajiit or Bosmer.

    My catblade typically runs around 27K stamina, depending on the setup I have for him. So his vigor tooltip can be as low as 9.7K depending on what regen I use, you can get much higher than that with Bosmer and even more with Redguard. But I find layering HP regen into the mix is more beneficial outnumbered vs just simply having higher healing tooltips. Especially with so many sources of unavoidable damage, defile and how squishy medium armor can be without a defensive set.

    20% hp regen isn't useless for PvP Khajiit.

    Khajiit/NB HP regen synergy
    • Refreshing shadows: 15%
    • Nimble: 20%
    • Major fortitude : 20%
    • Constitution: 8%
    • Troll king: 1548
    • Gold food: 351


    Edited by OdinForge on January 31, 2018 7:36PM
    The Age of Wrobel.
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    Alright, 10-12% spell and weapon crit with 10% max mag along with an hp boost?
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    So do I get this right? The current suggestion is:


    12% spell/ weapon crit
    10% max mag
    10 % stam recovery
    + hp boost

    20% health recovery
    10% increased dmg from stealth

    5% increased pickpocketing
    3m smaller detection radius
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on January 31, 2018 7:44PM
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    So do I get this right? The current suggestion is:


    12% spell/ weapon crit
    10% max mag
    10 % stam recovery
    + hp boost

    20% health recovery
    10% increased dmg from stealth

    5% increased pickpocketing
    3m smaller detection radius

    Mag recovery, my bad
    Edited by JobooAGS on January 31, 2018 7:59PM
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    Alright, 10-12% spell and weapon crit with 10% max mag along with an hp boost?

    I don't see any reason to muddy the waters by bringing magicka DPS into the equation, honestly. At that point we're going beyond minor balance tweaks and I'd say: get rid of combat racial passives altogether and move them into profession/specialization trees that every race can use and easily change.

    As far as minor balance changes to keep Khajiit competitive with Redguard, especially with the off balance changes and their effects on heavy attack builds, something like:

    Nine-Lives (replacing Nimble): +2/3/5% max health, +4/8/12% stamina regen
    Carnage: +3/6/12% weapon critical
    Stealthy: remains the same

    Carnage might be better suited at +10%, hard to say. But I am pretty confident that there's very little reason to use a Khajiit in PvE right now.
  • MinuitPro
    MinuitPro
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    MinuitPro wrote: »
    Change Carnage to Bloodlust: 2/4/6% Damage Done + 4/6/10% Max Health

    This one thinks it would be fun... good for PvE, but bad for PvP.

    Yeah I was totally being farcical. :)
    Edited by MinuitPro on January 31, 2018 7:59PM
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    No, you're asking to be BiS.

    Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.
  • Supernatural
    Supernatural
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    No, you're asking to be BiS.

    Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.

    My statement that Nord has more utility than a Khajiit is purely PvP-based. Both have 20% health regeneration, so they negate each other on that. 8% crit in PvP, as I already mentioned, is very weak, not only due to being heavily countered by impenetrable, resistant etc, but also by the fact that PvP is so bursty that an 8% extra crit is barely noticable. And then you have the lackluster stealthy and nimble passives, which bring almost nothing to the table. Compare to the extra flat stats and damage mitigation that Nord gets. You still think Khajiit is better? Again, I am not saying Nord could not use some buffing. It is overall weaker when compared to other stamina races.
    Edited by Supernatural on January 31, 2018 8:41PM
    Maelstrom Arena - World's First Nightblade 600k Score - 02/18/2017
  • Apache_Kid
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I honestly wouldn't be opposed to just a flat increase to 10%. Thanks for the informative post.

    But the health passives while not the best aren't TOTALLY useless and you need to account for that a bit. Yeah they could probably use a little something.
    Edited by Apache_Kid on January 31, 2018 8:28PM
  • Aztlan
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    I like the proposal for spell and weapon crit. And I would love to see a stamina bonus.

    Here's another idea. Why not buff the Health Recovery passive? I don't think that would be more powerful than the Bosmer stamina recovery passive, for example, and would allow for some interesting new builds.
    Edited by Aztlan on January 31, 2018 10:48PM
  • TrinityBreaker
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Khajiit are just fine, I don't see why you'd want to change anything, except maybe make the crit bonus apply to spells as well (why not?).

    Give them 6% stamina on top of everything and I see no reason not to run Khajiit in PvE, it becomes meta race for everyone - hardly ideal. My stamina DK is khajiit and trust me, there's no resource management issues there.

    In PvP khajiit is fine, that 8% Crit Chance is good for both damage and healing (worth atleast 4% "healing done") and the 20% health regen is also powerful, especially if you run Troll King (and why wouldn't you, not running that set is a mistake considering how broken it is - but that's a topic for another day).

    So compared to Wood Elf for example you're trading 11% stam regen 6% max stam & poison/disease resistance for: 20% health regen, 8% crit.


    Sounds fair to me.

    Watch that "Powerful" 20% Health regen get negated by a reverb bash/Dark Flare secondary affect/incap. Not meaning to come at you reckless but 11 out of the 12 toons I have are khajiit and that health recov is absolutely worthless. Also CP into Befoul is just overkill on the health regen passive.
    Ebonheart for life.
    Xbox NA
    I am Dog Star.

    Khajiit Stam Sorc - Ji'saad Ranajiradh AR 30
    Khajiit Mag DK - Kesjhad
    Khajiit Magblade - Ji'sava Ak'nir
    Fat Khajiit Stamplar - Dro'haniAk'nir - AR 36
    Khajiit Stam Dk - Diego Ri'jhad - AR 49
    Khajiit Magplar - Dro'nara Ak'nir
    Khajiit StamBlade - Ri'artharr Ak'nir
    Fat Khajiit Stamden - Dro'hani Warbreaker
    Argonian Stam DK - Tiberius Demetros
    Khajiit Stamplar - Diëgo Ri'jhad
    Fat Khajiit Stam DK - Drö'hani Ak'nir/Dances-With-Alkosh
    Khajiit Magden - Arctic Mayhem


  • DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Khajiit are just fine, I don't see why you'd want to change anything, except maybe make the crit bonus apply to spells as well (why not?).

    Give them 6% stamina on top of everything and I see no reason not to run Khajiit in PvE, it becomes meta race for everyone - hardly ideal. My stamina DK is khajiit and trust me, there's no resource management issues there.

    In PvP khajiit is fine, that 8% Crit Chance is good for both damage and healing (worth atleast 4% "healing done") and the 20% health regen is also powerful, especially if you run Troll King (and why wouldn't you, not running that set is a mistake considering how broken it is - but that's a topic for another day).

    So compared to Wood Elf for example you're trading 11% stam regen 6% max stam & poison/disease resistance for: 20% health regen, 8% crit.


    Sounds fair to me.

    Watch that "Powerful" 20% Health regen get negated by a reverb bash/Dark Flare secondary affect/incap. Not meaning to come at you reckless but 11 out of the 12 toons I have are khajiit and that health recov is absolutely worthless. Also CP into Befoul is just overkill on the health regen passive.

    On live, Troll King isn't actually affected by Defile (bug), but they've apparently fixed it for this update.

    And that health regen passive is actually subtracted from the opponent's heal debuff, so if it's let's say -50% health regen & healing, it becomes -30% health regen & -50% healing with the Khajiit passive.

    Meaning the amount of health regen you get from the passive doesn't fluctuate, only if your base health regen is somehow reduced, i.e. if there was a debuff that said "-200 health regen" no percentages or anything, then you'd be getting less from Khajiit passive.


    It's pretty easy to actually figure out how much exactly you get out of the passive, since most builds get zero health regen from gear/mundus/jewelry. 309 is the base value to which the +20% is applied, meaning you get a whopping 61 health regen.

    Troll King nets you 309 health regen from the passive (now 370 total) and if we add Orzorga's (passive adds 70 health regen to that), you'd be looking at 440 health regen from the Khajiit passive, which is pretty good.

    Note that vast majority comes from Troll King.
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 11:36PM
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    It would be nice for those players at the beginning of the game who had built Khajiit based on what the passive use to be. I know people who were upset by the change (some quit the game, a couple came back).

    At any regard I do think Khajiit deserve a little something but ZoS will need to be careful about it.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    No, you're asking to be BiS.

    Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.

    I actually think Nord isn't that bad.

    If you can break 19k HP on Nord (which isn't hard) you can dump blade cloak as you have roughly the same effective HP as your standard stam DPS with it. A free front bar skill slot is exceptionally strong.
    0331
    0602
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    Khajiit, Nord, Imperial, and Breton all four need buffs because of the drastic changes ZOS made last year regarding huge sustain nerfs to CP (removed Cost Reduction CP and nerfed Recovery CP), armor passives (nerfed cost and recovery bonuses), and cost of Skills (huge Stamina cost increase to Vigor). In the case of Khajiit all the changes to proc sets no longer criting, Thief Mundus nerfed, and health recovery builds nerfed are just in addition to the above sustain changes.

    ZOS did a sweeping overhaul to core components in the game last year and failed to take into account the further divide in balance between races. It majorly buffed races like Argonian which is now overperforming in PvP and Redguard which was already a top choice prior to Morrowind because both have sustain passives that return max resources regardless of how low your Recovery stat is. Meanwhile all the other races were effectively nerfed if they have a passive tied to your Recovery stat, Crit chance, etc.

    Out of all the races I'd say Khajiit was hit the hardest last year with the Morrowind nerfs but others like Nord, Imperial, and Breton were already falling behind the meta races prior to that.
    Edited by Twohothardware on February 1, 2018 1:34AM
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    No, you're asking to be BiS.

    Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.

    My statement that Nord has more utility than a Khajiit is purely PvP-based. Both have 20% health regeneration, so they negate each other on that. 8% crit in PvP, as I already mentioned, is very weak, not only due to being heavily countered by impenetrable, resistant etc, but also by the fact that PvP is so bursty that an 8% extra crit is barely noticable. And then you have the lackluster stealthy and nimble passives, which bring almost nothing to the table. Compare to the extra flat stats and damage mitigation that Nord gets. You still think Khajiit is better? Again, I am not saying Nord could not use some buffing. It is overall weaker when compared to other stamina races.

    Yes.

    I'll take 8% crit every day and any day. The reason I run around with 3000 Impen is because crit is so damn strong. And I don't care how much impen you run, it doesn't effect my heals.

    That 6% mitigation isn't 6% of the damage on a tooltip. It's 6% after Battlespirit, CP mitigation, Protection buffs, Minor maim, etc. In short, it's 6% of a tiny number already reduced and thus my Nord is pretty much taking the same damage as your Khajiit. Without the 8% crit.

    Nord is overall weaker to every race in the game. Khajiits aspire to be BiS. Nords aspire not to suck.
  • Finedaible
    Finedaible
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    Recremen wrote: »
    I'd take just giving them weapon crit and spell crit. It's not a buff per-se, since hybrid builds are still not real, but it lets people who play Khajiit not be as terrible when they're forced by circumstance to play magicka.

    I've been wanting them to revert this for so long so i'm not stuck with stamina builds. Khajiit do need a max stat gain though since they are the only race which does not gain max stat bonuses from their passives. At least give them something unique like 3% stamina cost reduction, mirroring Bretons' 3% magicka cost reduction. Many races get bonuses to two max stats in addition to recovery passives.
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    Only way Khajiit will get a buff is if they buff Wood Elves, Nords and Bretons 1st.

    Why do Bretons need a buff?

    The Breton magicka cost reduction passive has needed a buff since the Morrowind sustain nerfs in my opinion.

    Morrowind buffed that passive by making it relevant. Prior to Morrowind, it scaled HORRIBLY with magician, to the point where it was labelled as useless as the Nord's damage reduction passive.

    I heal endgame trials as a Breton magplar, and the race does an excellent job of outliving all the Altmer and Argonians with the massive boost to spell resistance.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    Aztlan wrote: »
    I like the proposal for spell and weapon crit. And I would love to see a stamina bonus.

    Here's another idea. Why not buff the Health Recovery passive? I don't think that would be more powerful than the Bosmer stamina recovery passive, for example, and would allow for some interesting new builds.

    They nerfed all health recovery in a major way when they had defile effect it.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Aztlan wrote: »
    I like the proposal for spell and weapon crit. And I would love to see a stamina bonus.

    Here's another idea. Why not buff the Health Recovery passive? I don't think that would be more powerful than the Bosmer stamina recovery passive, for example, and would allow for some interesting new builds.

    They nerfed all health recovery in a major way when they had defile effect it.

    They did, but that nerf doesn't affect the Khajiit racial passive or the amount of health regen you get from it.
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    The solution to Nord is to change percentage-based damage reduction to numeric physical resistance buff equal to Breton spell resistance buff. This one change adjusts the mitigation equation enough to make the nord a quite worthwhile tanking race by reducing the brutal diminishing returns in damage mitigation such that the Nord can devote CP, sets, and slots to goals other than physical resistances.

    As a khajiit stamblade main, the most balanced 'rebalancing' in my opinion would be to raise the stamina recovery bonus to 20%, and keep all the other passives the same. That health recovery does have use for brawlers in pvp and Off-tank DDs in PvE (where defile reductions should always be purged by the healer immediately after application anyway). This rebalance scheme preservers the khajiit's niche of critical damage while lessening what is perceived as their core weakness (sustain) without crowding out the races that specialize in sustain.
    Edited by waitwhat on February 1, 2018 1:33AM
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.
    Edited by waitwhat on February 1, 2018 1:39AM
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    If you give Khajiit a stamina crit damage buff, this is what's going to happen:

    1. Three months later Stamina Nightblade skills will eat a damage nerf hard, as their abilities synergize the most readily with crit and they start doing obscene damage against crit resist builds in Cyrodiil.
    2. Four to six months after that, everyone suddenly realizes why all the all the stamDKs, stamSorcs, and stamdens hit like freight trains stack on top of airliners stacked on top of asteroids.
    3. Queue, nearly a year hence, a blanket stamina damage nerf that ironically hits non-Khajiit stamina DD races the hardest, as ZOS is unlikely to directly nerf a buff they previously gave, as doing so would be to admit an egregious mistake.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    Stacked multiplicative increases can get out of hand very, very quickly, as they experience exponential returns. We have to be very, very careful about them, as even a 5% critical damage increase can balloon hugely with enough points in Piercing and the Shadow mundus.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
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