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A buff to Khajiit?

  • Apache_Kid
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
  • JobooAGS
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I forgot to add to give khajiits the same amount of mag regen as stam regen too in my proposal. Make khajiits the crit race.

    Hmm I would be fine with this But the magicka regen should be the same as the stam regen currently is. Giving them a sustain buff to what they currently have with crit would make the BiS for every build unless it was very minimal.

    Proposed Khajiit passives:

    Nimble:
    Increases health recovery by 6/13/20% mag and stam recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy:
    reduces detection radius by 1/2/3 m increases your damage while in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage:
    Increases weapon and spell critical by 2/5/8% and Max Health by 2/4/6% or Dodge Chance by 1/2(3)/3(5)%
  • Edziu
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I forgot to add to give khajiits the same amount of mag regen as stam regen too in my proposal. Make khajiits the crit race.

    Hmm I would be fine with this But the magicka regen should be the same as the stam regen currently is. Giving them a sustain buff to what they currently have with crit would make the BiS for every build unless it was very minimal.

    Proposed Khajiit passives:

    Nimble:
    Increases health recovery by 6/13/20% mag and stam recovery by 3/6/10%

    Stealthy:
    reduces detection radius by 1/2/3 m increases your damage while in stealth by 3/6/10%

    Carnage:
    Increases weapon and spell critical by 2/5/8% and Max Health by 2/4/6% or Dodge Chance by 1/2(3)/3(5)%

    as dodge chance will be great but even op here...better to not try anything with it because it will be to insane especially as just for race passive, it will have more snse to add to medium armor but as passive its nonsense and it cant be as will be enough to bring back old major evasion for 20% chance from 15% which is now
  • ArchMikem
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.
    CP1,500+ Master Explorer - AvA August Palatine - Console Peasant
  • Supernatural
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not. And also keep in mind ESO is more than just trials. At the moment, in PvP Khajiit is BY FAR the worst race to pick for a stamina build, apart from magicka races obviously.
    Edited by Supernatural on January 31, 2018 4:55PM
    Maelstrom Arena - World's First Nightblade 600k Score - 02/18/2017
  • Apache_Kid
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
  • IZZEFlameLash
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    Redguards are still the best stam race both pvp and pve. Not sure what you are trying to get at. Bosmers are mostly stamblade gankers. Khajiits are nothing currently. Orcs are popular choice for stamplar and stamsorc. Redguards dominate the most.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Supernatural
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    A buff to Khajiit will not stop Redguard from being a very strong and versatile race. In solo PvE like Maelstrom it will still be better than Khajiit due to its superior sustain and in PvP it will still be the best race for all stamina classes along with Orc, with the exclusion maybe of stamina nightblade (the only class where bosmer is BiS, unlike you stated).
    Maelstrom Arena - World's First Nightblade 600k Score - 02/18/2017
  • SodanTok
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.
  • Apache_Kid
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.

    Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.

    I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.
  • JobooAGS
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    with more hp, you can slot more into stam or mag. Khajiit in my view is the crit race and therefore focus on crit. Boosting hp instead of mag and stam will reinforce this while giving khajiits a % modifier.

    Edit: If you want, increase the crit values to 10% each
    Edited by JobooAGS on January 31, 2018 5:35PM
  • SodanTok
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.

    Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.

    I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.

    From experience, most people looking down on redguard in PVP are the same people that think 10% regen on 2k stam regen build means 200 more regen! :D When you truly put it up to math, there are very few situations where redguard does not win damage and sustain wise. Obviously there are the 'not everything is about damage' cases where different races like Orc come better.
  • JobooAGS
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    A buff to Khajiit will not stop Redguard from being a very strong and versatile race. In solo PvE like Maelstrom it will still be better than Khajiit due to its superior sustain and in PvP it will still be the best race for all stamina classes along with Orc, with the exclusion maybe of stamina nightblade (the only class where bosmer is BiS, unlike you stated).

    I personally dont want content that is set up in a way that you only have 3 races in it in the leaderboards, which may happen if the wrong adjustments are made, just look at mag dps, everyone is an altmer (save mag dks, but they are dead pve wise). I would rather see more diversity in races in content and not everyone funneling into a supoosedly "bis race" and raid leaders forcing people to race change because of a buff or nerf to a race
  • LiquidPony
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    Agreed.

    Personally I think Khajiit is pretty underwhelming right now. Maybe they're better for e-peen target skeleton contests or easy content on heavy attack builds like stamDKs or stamsorcs, but Redguard is far and away better on LA-focused builds and in Maelstrom, and when factoring in the external stamina drains in more difficult content (blocking meteors on vAA HM, breakfrees and resource drains in vHoF, vMoL HM, etc.) I just don't really see a compelling reason to use Khajiit over Redguard on any PvE stam build right now.
    Edited by LiquidPony on January 31, 2018 5:45PM
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds". Too low resources, "the buff changed nothing".

    For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds". Too low resources, only crit to offer, no elemental dmg boon or regen.

    I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.

    Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.

    Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways. Even if ZOS seems to depict Khajiits as stam race.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on January 31, 2018 5:44PM
  • DDuke
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
    For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".

    I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.

    Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.

    Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.

    It'd make my Khajiit stam DK's Power Lash crit more often :p
  • LiquidPony
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    Sure, but a well-tuned max HP buff would allow Khajiit to safely run 7 pieces of medium armor, which (compared to a typical 6/1 setup) is another +4% stamina regen, +1.5% weapon critical, and -2% stamina cost at the expense of 2% max stamina.

    Same reason that Imperial is actually a better stam DPS race than a lot of people think it is.
  • JobooAGS
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
    For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".

    I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.

    Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.

    Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.

    You can also increase the crit values to 10% too
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
    For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".

    I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.

    Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.

    Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.

    You can also increase the crit values to 10% too

    I haven't done the math but I doubt that would put them over Redguards, Orcs, Wood Elfs... Altmer, Dunmer, Breton...
  • JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
    For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".

    I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.

    Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.

    Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.

    You can also increase the crit values to 10% too

    I haven't done the math but I doubt that would put them over Redguards, Orcs, Wood Elfs... Altmer, Dunmer, Breton...

    If not, let me know what percentage will accounting for a 6% hp boost (which means slotting more mag/stam instead of hp)
    Edit: spelling
    Edited by JobooAGS on January 31, 2018 6:00PM
  • Apache_Kid
    Apache_Kid
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.

    Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.

    I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.

    From experience, most people looking down on redguard in PVP are the same people that think 10% regen on 2k stam regen build means 200 more regen! :D When you truly put it up to math, there are very few situations where redguard does not win damage and sustain wise. Obviously there are the 'not everything is about damage' cases where different races like Orc come better.

    Not saying redguard is bad in PvP, rather my point was that people want to do many different things with their PvP builds and that may require a specific race like orc as you mentioned. Also I know a couple people who only PvP with Argonians for the option passive. Unlike PvE, There are disagreements to what is truly best in Open world PvP was my point regarding redguards and PvP
  • Didgerion
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    Yeah, Khajits need a buff.

    They need more speed - they are cats after all.
    And more stamina sustain - again they are cats!

    And 10% damage from stealth has to be removed from the game altogether - as result you will see less one-shot builds out there and more balanced NBs.
  • CaptainVenom
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.

    8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.

    But again, what would that change?

    Well... it would be better than nothing, I suppose.
    🌈 Ride with Pride 🌈Magicka/Damage Necromancer - PC - NA - DC
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    krathos wrote: »
    what if, and hear me out, you had to kill a khajiit 9 times in order to fully kill it.

    Then you wear the phoenix set on top of that.
  • Silver_Strider
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on January 31, 2018 6:43PM
    Argonian forever
  • Supernatural
    Supernatural
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.
    Maelstrom Arena - World's First Nightblade 600k Score - 02/18/2017
  • IlCanis_LupuslI
    IlCanis_LupuslI
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    In this post I want to analyze how Khajiit performs in PvE and PvP.

    So, what do you get as a Khajiit?
    • 20% Health Recovery. I'll be blunt about this one: Health recovery is absolutely worthless in end-game PvE. No builds will ever invest into health recovery, whether it is a DD, a healer, or tank. There is simply no reason to. In PvP, health recovery is a rather weak stat and in order to make some use out of it you will have to run specific health recovery oriented sets, such as Troll King, but anything beyond that will turn you into a tank who will not be able to kill anyone. But then again, if you wanna build for tankiness, there are other races which fullfill that role way better. Khajiit has always been a pure damage race, and was never used for its health recovery.
    • 10% Stamina Recovery. An extremely weak passive in end-game PvE. This equals to less than 100 recovery if we are running base stam regen, which in end-game PvE you will want to do in order to maximize your DPS. Somewhat decent in PvP, but overall gets outshined by other races' racials which boast out much more sustain.
    • 10% damage done while in stealth and reduced detection radius. Has no use in end-game PvE, okay-ish in solo PvE (outside of Maelstrom Arena) and PvP. Wood Elf also has this passive.
    • 8% Critical Strike Chance. The sole reason one would pick Khajiit (outside of roleplaying and looks) as their race. Unfortunately, this passive's value has been DRASTICALLY decreased over the latest patches. Warhorn changed from multiplicative to additive, proc sets not critically striking anymore and huge nerfs to the thief and the shadow (gets outcritted by the warrior mundus stone), mundus stones really killed off Khajiit. In PvP, both critical strike chance and damage are being heavily mitigated by things such as the impenetrable trait, the resistance champion point passive, as well as the impregnable set, making this passive rather weak.

    Overall, I think it is pretty clear that Khajiit underperforms. In end-game PvE it is in the shadow of Redguard. Damage wise they are more or less the same (redguard does tiny more damage, but you will not notice any actual difference), but the redguard's resource management is far superior, and higher sustain equal higher DPS. In PvP, Khajiit is simply lackluster. Redguard and Wood Elf are flat out better both in damage and sustain, Imperial has very high stat pools, and Orc, Argonian and Nord have much better utility.

    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP. What am I proposing:
    FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH

    Khajiit Skills
    • Medium Armor Expertise: This passive ability has been renamed to “Cutpurse.” Also, in addition to the current benefit it now increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.
    • Robust Constitution: This passive ability has been renamed to “Nimble.” Also, it no longer increases your Health Recovery by 6/13/20%. It now increases your Max Stamina by 2/4/6% and continues to increase your Stamina Recovery by 3/6/10%.
    Anyone remember this? This is back from June 2016 (Shadows of the Hist, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/274961/pts-patch-notes-v2-5-0/p1). This change was mainly PvP focused, however it was eventually reverted, as Khajiit was already the strongest stamina PvE race by a good margin, and a 6% max stamina would make it even more powerful. However, things have changed so much since then, that I feel like it is the right time for this change to be implemented, the race really needs it. It will make Khajiit the best choice for a stamina DD once again, but not by too much, and it will actually give Khajiit something to work with in PvP. What do you think?

    only if that useless stealth passive gets removed and replaced (with the bosmer aswell) with something actually usefull for non nightblades pvp and pve wise :-(
    Cp 1490
    Xbox-EU-AD
    Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
    Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
    Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
    Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
    Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.
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