PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Nifty2g · January 2018

Bevik wrote: »

@Nifty2g

So why Alkosh is not a DD set then. Last bonus is what makes tanks using it. If You ditch that or half it. Change slightly noone would ever use that. I don't think it's designed after any lore. Anyway they are changing the game and not adjusting the sets nor adding any new which could replace the actual meta.
I understand your team support meta build but you don't understand my point.

Most of the sets are designed after lore or their dungeon mechanics, Alkosh was designed based on the Shatter mechanic, it shatters your armor, it's exactly what Alkosh does.

xaraan · January 2018

Bevik, Alkosh is a DD set, it's just a set that tanks run b/c of the debuff. That is why it drops in medium, with robust jewelry and why all the bonuses are based around doing damage. Very similar to other debuff sets, giving you more pen allows more damage.

But the fact that it's group based and triggered off a synergy, tanks started running it b/c it was an armor debuff everyone would get.

Nifty2g · January 2018

xaraan wrote: »

Bevik, Alkosh is a DD set, it's just a set that tanks run b/c of the debuff. That is why it drops in medium, with robust jewelry and why all the bonuses are based around doing damage. Very similar to other debuff sets, giving you more pen allows more damage.

But the fact that it's group based and triggered off a synergy, tanks started running it b/c it was an armor debuff everyone would get.

Going to be honest, the set dropping in Robust is another reason why I love it. Healthy is mostly pointless.

xaraan · January 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Bevik, Alkosh is a DD set, it's just a set that tanks run b/c of the debuff. That is why it drops in medium, with robust jewelry and why all the bonuses are based around doing damage. Very similar to other debuff sets, giving you more pen allows more damage.

But the fact that it's group based and triggered off a synergy, tanks started running it b/c it was an armor debuff everyone would get.

Going to be honest, the set dropping in Robust is another reason why I love it. Healthy is mostly pointless.

Not really, having higher stam when stam doesn't regen doesn't help you in the current meta. (Edit: and saying healthy is pointless when you just bragged about having 50k health doesn't make sense). High health is more helpful, and the fact that I can run all tri glyphs means I can still get my stam up to a decent number, same with health (as if I split glyphs between health and stam) and then bonus magicka on top of it. You can even keep your magicka and stam close together so if you run a build that swaps between shield to staff, you can decide which resource will benefit from picking up a shard/orb.

I have both alkosh and some arcane jewelry sets and it's always a pain to swap on the fly. I prefer to have all healthy jewelry and then work around it from there.

I mean, to each his own as far as builds go. But I've done every piece of content in the game including vHM (we are working on vHM AS now) and can tell you for sure that Alkosh uptime isn't as great as people think. And DD would get more benefit out of having that 100% always up pen from CP and getting some other benefit from their tank. Heck, even Torug's isn't as great as people think, it's a little more uptime and a little more pen and most groups that talk about how it maximizes their dps never would even have needed it on every run I've ever seen them post.

Personally, I think a tank is crazy if they run one setup all the time. I'm packed with gear and swap it out all the time depending on who I run with and what the content is and Alkosh is rarely a go-to in that and the group hasn't seen any drop in performance.

Nifty2g · January 2018

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Bevik, Alkosh is a DD set, it's just a set that tanks run b/c of the debuff. That is why it drops in medium, with robust jewelry and why all the bonuses are based around doing damage. Very similar to other debuff sets, giving you more pen allows more damage.

But the fact that it's group based and triggered off a synergy, tanks started running it b/c it was an armor debuff everyone would get.

Going to be honest, the set dropping in Robust is another reason why I love it. Healthy is mostly pointless.

But I've done every piece of content in the game including vHM (we are working on vHM AS now) and can tell you for sure that Alkosh uptime isn't as great as people think. And DD would get more benefit out of having that 100% always up pen from CP and getting some other benefit from their tank. Heck, even Torug's isn't as great as people think, it's a little more uptime and a little more pen and most groups that talk about how it maximizes their dps never would even have needed it on every run I've ever seen them post.

I've completed vAS HM too, I get 96% crusher with torugs infused on average and 60-68% alkosh, Asylum is probably the best place for Alkosh. You get near 100% for when it actually matters.
Having a stamplar with 80-90% power of the light up time, I don't understand how going into penetration would give more damage, but yeah like I've been saying earlier, if you put the effort in with alkosh and even torugs you're increasing your whole raids dps by an incredible amount

As for healthy, it's not needed I can reach 50k with alkosh and torugs if you build for that high but it's not needed once you get used to it, I prefer to have higher stamina pool instead of running around with 13-14k

victoriana-blue · January 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Hey vict , I'm with you , my main is NB tank as well .
I think we could tank all DLC but we need an amazing team lol

victoriana-blue wrote: »

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

I have no idea how we don't perma block at BF HM final phase , Im a NB tank

Always awesome to see you and our fellow nb tanks around these threads.

We still exist! We still care!

I haven't done regular vBF yet because my friends list doesn't want to, but that works out because I have no idea how I want to approach that boss - healing through isn't going to cut it with those clones.

Asardes wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Hey vict , I'm with you , my main is NB tank as well .
I think we could tank all DLC but we need an amazing team lol

victoriana-blue wrote: »

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

I have no idea how we don't perma block at BF HM final phase , Im a NB tank

I've done vCoS and vRoM HM on Stam NB tank using my old Tava's (has become useless for the DK), Brands of Imperium and Swarm Mother (had those lying around) and it's not hard, but for vBF I really don't see how I could do it. And it's not just the perma-blocking, but the healing too. On DK I can hit GDB a few times to heal myself if the healer isn't paying attention, but there's no way I could heal myself without healer on NB and recover from such hits. Also I would consider vFH out of reach for this kind of tank due to the unreliability of pulls at the final boss - a DK (Unrelenting Grip) or Warden (Frozen Gate) can pull all the adds on a pilar when the boss shouts often, but I can't see a NB pull that many, even with the said monster set. As for trials, I wouldn't embarrass myself bringing a NB, when I have a Stam DK and Stam Warden which can do the job much better. Poor kitty would die as soon as the Manticora or Ra Kotu look at him ...

I don't want to get in a group's way either - I'm there to make my group's run easier, not harder. The agony disorient was always chancy since a stray aoe would break it, and frost blockade on my backbar slows mobs, but the elementals in HOTR really need some hard cc. Have you experimented with the mages guild skills at all?

Holding the adds at a pillar might be doable if the group is on comms and picks the pillar before the adds spawn so that they can be taunted that way, but that requires a lot more coordination than the average pug can handle (and is a lot of work if the group wanted a quick run).

xaraan · January 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Bevik, Alkosh is a DD set, it's just a set that tanks run b/c of the debuff. That is why it drops in medium, with robust jewelry and why all the bonuses are based around doing damage. Very similar to other debuff sets, giving you more pen allows more damage.

But the fact that it's group based and triggered off a synergy, tanks started running it b/c it was an armor debuff everyone would get.

Going to be honest, the set dropping in Robust is another reason why I love it. Healthy is mostly pointless.

But I've done every piece of content in the game including vHM (we are working on vHM AS now) and can tell you for sure that Alkosh uptime isn't as great as people think. And DD would get more benefit out of having that 100% always up pen from CP and getting some other benefit from their tank. Heck, even Torug's isn't as great as people think, it's a little more uptime and a little more pen and most groups that talk about how it maximizes their dps never would even have needed it on every run I've ever seen them post.

I've completed vAS HM too, I get 96% crusher with torugs infused on average and 60-68% alkosh, Asylum is probably the best place for Alkosh. You get near 100% for when it actually matters.
Having a stamplar with 80-90% power of the light up time, I don't understand how going into penetration would give more damage, but yeah like I've been saying earlier, if you put the effort in with alkosh and even torugs you're increasing your whole raids dps by an incredible amount

As for healthy, it's not needed I can reach 50k with alkosh and torugs if you build for that high but it's not needed once you get used to it, I prefer to have higher stamina pool instead of running around with 13-14k

1. Depending on what group you run with, you actually are my point about whether or not Alkosh is useful or not. If you are with a top DPS group clearing stuff the first week it comes out, you'll see a lot more results than if you are with a group that is learning mechanics more slowly and whose dps is quite messier. If you are in one of those guild setups that has decided you have to have x dps to be in it and run x sets and x classes, then that is in the minority compared to those doing the content and looking for advice on here. Telling guys in those groups to run stuff like Alkosh often isn't doing them any favors.

2. In AS, you don't have that much uptime with Alkosh, or even Torug's because the bosses aren't in position for damage often enough or olhms is shielded, so uptime showing on trackers isn't going to be accurate. Though you aren't wrong saying you can target your debuffs to get the most out of them because of all the movement, again, you have to remember, most of the players on here looking for advice are not running with 8 dd's doing 50k dps.

3. Not sure what you mean by saying more pen doesn't mean more damage - if you don't believe that, then why run Alkosh at all? Maybe I didn't say it clearly, more pen from CP means you don't need Alkosh and getting the better results b/c you'll have that 3k pen 100% of the time, not the 60%ish you posted in your example. Putting those points into getting 1% to something a DD has already dumped a bunch of points into b/c of diminishing returns makes way less sense.

My pushback on Alkosh is that every end game tank pushes it like its a mantra. one, it's not even that great, but two, it really is only as useful as it can be in those end game top raid guild. Most players coming here for advice aren't going to be running with those guys and it would make a horrible set for them. IMO, every tank should have a set, it has its place for burns, but it's one of the last sets I would recommend for new tanks learning content with other new players.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

You know that some tanks even used to use light armor set with no inherent "Tank" bonuses. The heresy I tell you.

Still do, my go to selfish setup is Plague and Desert Rose or Plague and Sanctuary, both are very nice for Axes or say off tanking vSO, where I need to be able to rely on my own heals or have to be more actively casting.

Tannus15 · January 2018

Firstly, can people please stop *** that somehow alkosh was intended to be a tank set?
It's not. It's used by tanks and not DD because tanks can use it and it's pretty rubbish on a DD because of the way synergies work. This might be addressed in dragon bones, but I have a feeling alkosh will still be bad on a DD.

Secondly, you can tank in any 5pc heavy armour set plus literally any other set.
Light, medium, whatever. The sooner you can ditch the "tanks can only run heavy sets" mentality the better. Personally I'm using 7pc heavy (ebon, lord warden) and 5pc adjustable to the situation. (jewellery & sword & shield). the only problem with this is how much of a pain getting jewellery and 2* weapons & shields for dungeon sets.
The only thing that really matters is that you can sustain 33k resists 100% of the time.

Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

And no one is using either of them for tanking because the benefits are simply too small to bother.

I will allow that Dragon or Potentates allows you to use your ult more often, which can also be beneficial, especially when you consider that the only way to safely heavy attack is to use Shield Wall.
This will probably be my go to solution for perma-blocking in Dragon-bones.

In fact, as far as I can see the real impact of the block cost reduction might be taking tanks out of the war-horn rotation. Will see how it plays out.

Lynx7386 · January 2018

Cant say I'm a fan of the changes, but ZOS has been nerfing blocking for tanks almost every patch for years now, and all because of pvp complaints. They nerfed block cost, and then black rose, and then constitution, and then block cost again, and then block enchants, it's ridiculous.

Tanking and healing is pretty much all I do at endgame in ESO, never liked playing the dps role (other than a few stints on my magdk). I honestly dont think ZOS knows what they're doing to pve tanking with these constant nerfs in the name of pvp.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, can people please stop *** that somehow alkosh was intended to be a tank set?
It's not. It's used by tanks and not DD because tanks can use it and it's pretty rubbish on a DD because of the way synergies work. This might be addressed in dragon bones, but I have a feeling alkosh will still be bad on a DD.

Secondly, you can tank in any 5pc heavy armour set plus literally any other set.
Light, medium, whatever. The sooner you can ditch the "tanks can only run heavy sets" mentality the better. Personally I'm using 7pc heavy (ebon, lord warden) and 5pc adjustable to the situation. (jewellery & sword & shield). the only problem with this is how much of a pain getting jewellery and 2* weapons & shields for dungeon sets.
The only thing that really matters is that you can sustain 33k resists 100% of the time.

Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

And no one is using either of them for tanking because the benefits are simply too small to bother.

I will allow that Dragon or Potentates allows you to use your ult more often, which can also be beneficial, especially when you consider that the only way to safely heavy attack is to use Shield Wall.
This will probably be my go to solution for perma-blocking in Dragon-bones.

In fact, as far as I can see the real impact of the block cost reduction might be taking tanks out of the war-horn rotation. Will see how it plays out.

You missed Footman's Fortune. Gives you more block mitigation. There are groups running this set in vAS and vHoF when they go through progression.

Leeching Plate is a great set for axes coupled with Bahraha's curse. U don't even have to re taunt axes as the damage output from the 2 sets is enough to keep axe aggo on you.

Tannus15 · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, can people please stop *** that somehow alkosh was intended to be a tank set?
It's not. It's used by tanks and not DD because tanks can use it and it's pretty rubbish on a DD because of the way synergies work. This might be addressed in dragon bones, but I have a feeling alkosh will still be bad on a DD.

Secondly, you can tank in any 5pc heavy armour set plus literally any other set.
Light, medium, whatever. The sooner you can ditch the "tanks can only run heavy sets" mentality the better. Personally I'm using 7pc heavy (ebon, lord warden) and 5pc adjustable to the situation. (jewellery & sword & shield). the only problem with this is how much of a pain getting jewellery and 2* weapons & shields for dungeon sets.
The only thing that really matters is that you can sustain 33k resists 100% of the time.

Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

And no one is using either of them for tanking because the benefits are simply too small to bother.

I will allow that Dragon or Potentates allows you to use your ult more often, which can also be beneficial, especially when you consider that the only way to safely heavy attack is to use Shield Wall.
This will probably be my go to solution for perma-blocking in Dragon-bones.

In fact, as far as I can see the real impact of the block cost reduction might be taking tanks out of the war-horn rotation. Will see how it plays out.

You missed Footman's Fortune. Gives you more block mitigation. There are groups running this set in vAS and vHoF when they go through progression.

Leeching Plate is a great set for axes coupled with Bahraha's curse. U don't even have to re taunt axes as the damage output from the 2 sets is enough to keep axe aggo on you.

Yeah, I'm not sure footmans is actually worth running. Ever. I guess it can have an honourable mention, but Hist bark will actually reduce the damage taken by almost twice as much as well as reduce the cost of blocking so yeah. Please don't.

I guess Resilient Yokeda should also be on the list of half arsed tanking sets with Leeching plate and Baharaha's curse since it's also situationally good when you're blocking a bunch of things that don't really hit all that hard and you don't have a healer.

Firstmep · January 2018

Im always happy to see blockholding tanks un pvp, my bleedplar has the perfect medicine for them.
As far as pve tank changes are concerned, zos has been hard at work to destroy endgame trial guilds ever since Morrowind.
At least when it comes to synergis they are starting to move towards the right direction.
At this rate i might start using moondancer again on my magplar, i used to love that set.
Also hoping to see a lot more light attack based dps builds come next patch. One thing here to mention is they keep changing core combat balance and mechanics without updating difficult pve encounters to match up.
To anyone saying pve is easy i know many ppl who still struggle with vma or vmol/vhof.

code65536 · January 2018

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

paulsimonps · January 2018

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, can people please stop *** that somehow alkosh was intended to be a tank set?
It's not. It's used by tanks and not DD because tanks can use it and it's pretty rubbish on a DD because of the way synergies work. This might be addressed in dragon bones, but I have a feeling alkosh will still be bad on a DD.

Secondly, you can tank in any 5pc heavy armour set plus literally any other set.
Light, medium, whatever. The sooner you can ditch the "tanks can only run heavy sets" mentality the better. Personally I'm using 7pc heavy (ebon, lord warden) and 5pc adjustable to the situation. (jewellery & sword & shield). the only problem with this is how much of a pain getting jewellery and 2* weapons & shields for dungeon sets.
The only thing that really matters is that you can sustain 33k resists 100% of the time.

Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

And no one is using either of them for tanking because the benefits are simply too small to bother.

I will allow that Dragon or Potentates allows you to use your ult more often, which can also be beneficial, especially when you consider that the only way to safely heavy attack is to use Shield Wall.
This will probably be my go to solution for perma-blocking in Dragon-bones.

In fact, as far as I can see the real impact of the block cost reduction might be taking tanks out of the war-horn rotation. Will see how it plays out.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, can people please stop *** that somehow alkosh was intended to be a tank set?
It's not. It's used by tanks and not DD because tanks can use it and it's pretty rubbish on a DD because of the way synergies work. This might be addressed in dragon bones, but I have a feeling alkosh will still be bad on a DD.

Secondly, you can tank in any 5pc heavy armour set plus literally any other set.
Light, medium, whatever. The sooner you can ditch the "tanks can only run heavy sets" mentality the better. Personally I'm using 7pc heavy (ebon, lord warden) and 5pc adjustable to the situation. (jewellery & sword & shield). the only problem with this is how much of a pain getting jewellery and 2* weapons & shields for dungeon sets.
The only thing that really matters is that you can sustain 33k resists 100% of the time.

Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

And no one is using either of them for tanking because the benefits are simply too small to bother.

I will allow that Dragon or Potentates allows you to use your ult more often, which can also be beneficial, especially when you consider that the only way to safely heavy attack is to use Shield Wall.
This will probably be my go to solution for perma-blocking in Dragon-bones.

In fact, as far as I can see the real impact of the block cost reduction might be taking tanks out of the war-horn rotation. Will see how it plays out.

You missed Footman's Fortune. Gives you more block mitigation. There are groups running this set in vAS and vHoF when they go through progression.

Leeching Plate is a great set for axes coupled with Bahraha's curse. U don't even have to re taunt axes as the damage output from the 2 sets is enough to keep axe aggo on you.

33k Resistance is not needed on a PvE Tank and Footman is a crap set, always has been even when it was released, and it was nerfed anyway

With the way mitigation works and the amount of CP one can get, its far better to use your sets to stack HP, not resistance if you want to be more self defensive, or even healing sets. Though yes, Hist Bark is an amazing set if you want to be defensive, just that we are at a point in the game where its not really necessary once you get more experienced and have a good team to work with. Also not as good on very slow hitting bosses and hurt a lot, less hits equals less chances to dodge it and more likely you take the full hit anyway. See Olms as example.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

@Tannus15 Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

You don't see very far then. Alteration mastery reduces all costs, blocking, dodge rolling, ulti, break free this set alone is better then either of the ones you stated but here are some more. Quick Serpent provides the same 8% cost reduction. Both the vma s/b and vDSA s/b make the skills that you will be using better for you. Knight-Errant's Mail makes it so those skills also heal you or heal for more. All these set directly help you tank more Damage. No sure what you are on about.

SirCritical · January 2018

Bevik wrote: »

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Let me just quote this single sentence.

The time when you'll start doing vet trials, you'll experience the increase in difficulty, where your main job will be (after staying alive ofc) to support your group's DPS for skipping mechanisms, succeeding on DPS-checks, keeping your teammates alive etc.

Believe me, the 'meta tanks' know their job and what they're saying. I'm not a meta tank myself (except a few situations where I just mustn't do anything else), for example I'm near invincible in Leeching set if there are a crowd of enemies around me, but this is the fun part of it. In vet trials it's not needed to feel yourself fun, it's for the other 11 players to make them doing their job while enjoying it. You're the group-masochist, accept it.

Knowledge · January 2018

SirCritical wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Let me just quote this single sentence.

The time when you'll start doing vet trials, you'll experience the increase in difficulty, where your main job will be (after staying alive ofc) to support your group's DPS for skipping mechanisms, succeeding on DPS-checks, keeping your teammates alive etc.

Believe me, the 'meta tanks' know their job and what they're saying. I'm not a meta tank myself (except a few situations where I just mustn't do anything else), for example I'm near invincible in Leeching set if there are a crowd of enemies around me, but this is the fun part of it. In vet trials it's not needed to feel yourself fun, it's for the other 11 players to make them doing their job while enjoying it. You're the group-masochist, accept it.

While one can make this argument you must realize this is a meta created by the player base and is not necessarily the best option or the only option. There's other ways for the game to be played and even possibly more efficiently it would just require DPS to do more than just press buttons in sequence.

Advocating for tanks to be the groups masochist is a disgusting philosophy.

aeowulf · January 2018

What should be blindingly obvious is Alkosh is a dps set, there is nothing on that set that directly helps someone in the role of tank role. Due to the way it works anyone can wear it and provide the same benefit to DPS to the group. The most efficient role to wear it is the tank becase putting on a healer means them getting up close to mobs and putting it on a DPS reduces their dps/the dps of the group. There are other sets such as NMG & sunderflame that perform a similar role, also equipable by others, that are equipped by DPS.

In trials all the best sets are 'support' sets where multiple people are affected by it, they are often four times better than they are in a 4 man group (8DPS vs 2 DPS) which means sets that are good in groups become exceptional in trials. So something that's balanced in a pledge becomes powerful in a trial.

Re Alkosh - it's too good probably, but it's also pretty poor if you don't get synergy. Ha a massive range. It should probably be a heavy set without the damage portion on the 5 piece, and there should be a decent medium DPS set. There has to be a 'best set' from somewhere and MoL was the perfect place at the time due to it's difficulty. The new trials sets may/may not be better but they cannot stand against the fact this helps out 12 people.

Re Stamina, where is the equivalent of Equilibrium, but for stamina for all? DK have a baby version of it, sorc have a superior version of it, well it would be if their pet ignored the 'can't heal yourself' aspect. The skill is going to push people down the ice staff tanking route, which is a horrible idea to tanks. Personally, my idea of a tank is someone with a physical shield, not a staff.

And please change repentance the skill is dire on long fights, like NB exectutioner passive. Give it minor stamina steal like it's counterpart, & this is coming from someone who barely plays templar tank.

munster1404 · January 2018

Honestly, I'm not running with Alkosh or Torug's. I do have a Torug's on standby and will wear it upon the group's request. Currently I'm using Shacklebreaker, it has magicka regen bonus so instead of the meta Shadowrend/Chokethorn, I swop it out for Domihaus shoulders giving even more resources. My final build has around 41K Health, 23K Magicka and 28K Stamina.

Maybe I need to git gud but I tried tanking Normal dungeons with <19K Stam and got my ass kicked. I think with CP cap rising every patch. DDs should be able to put more points in penetration and alleviate much of the burden on the Tanks armor debuff so the latter can start stacking more resources.

Asardes · January 2018

If they actually manage to make synergies more reliable, and with them off GCD which means you don't break rotation to grab them, Alkosh may be actually worth running on a melee DD instead of the tank. Also they rescinded their decision on cool-down, so it's now back at 20s. The class that synergizes the best with this set is Stamina Sorcerer, due to two passives: Storm Calling: Energized (increase physical damage by 5%) and Implosion (physical damage has a 6% chance to instantly kill enemies under 15%) since the Alkosh proc does physical damage. Also the proc damage is buffed more by the CP distribution on a DD by MAA, Mighty and Piercing. It will make a great combo with Night Mother's Gaze for a nice AoE debuff setup in situations where you have a boss with adds.

Tannus15 · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Tannus15 Thirdly, as far as I can see there is only 2 sets which actually assist with tanking directly and that's Hist Bark which gives you the massive boost of 1 free block every 7 hits and VO which gives you 8% cost reduction on your taunt.

No other set helps you taunt better.
No other set helps you block better.

You don't see very far then. Alteration mastery reduces all costs, blocking, dodge rolling, ulti, break free this set alone is better then either of the ones you stated but here are some more. Quick Serpent provides the same 8% cost reduction. Both the vma s/b and vDSA s/b make the skills that you will be using better for you. Knight-Errant's Mail makes it so those skills also heal you or heal for more. All these set directly help you tank more Damage. No sure what you are on about.

You're right, i missed alteration mastery.

Quick Serpernt is basically VO which i mentioned.

Knight errant and seventh legion (omg, you missed one too!) do heal you, but not enough for any serious content to really matter. In fact knight errant is pretty useless for the heal. you're better off with potentates and master shield, but regardless the heal is basically worthless unless you're spamming taunt over and over.

I'll do a shout out to one of my favourite sets, Brands of the Imperium since I love it's 14k shield which also helps the nearby stam dps. The short range on it does limit it's usefulness somewhat however (like lord warden)

I don't know where alt mastery comes into the calculations on reducing block cost. Does anyone know?

@paulsimonps Is the 50% mitigation resistance cap not just under 33k still?
I was under the impression that we should be sitting on 33k resists when buffed.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

@Tannus15 I didn't claim "No other set helps you taunt better." You did. My list was not meant to be a complete list of tankiness sets or sets that help you tank. So I didn't miss anything because I wasn't trying to hit what you are assuming I was aiming for.

The resist cap is 33,100 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1) and you never really need to be there, I have tanked all the dlc dungeons in ebon and heavy sentinel of rekugums on my warden and my spell resist sits at around 30k and my physical sits at around 28k most of the time. So you "should" be sitting at what ever resists you get while supporting your team the most.

Asardes · January 2018

The heal from sets such as Master's 1H+S, Knight Errant, 7th Legion etc. are meaningless in PvE, where you take a lot of burst damage you have to recover from it quickly because the next hit is never far away. I don't see how procs from those sets can save you from Earthgore Amalgam in split phase hitting you like a truck every 2s or the Warrior when he does "death by a hundred cuts". DK recovers fast spamming GDB, which can get back up to 45% of your missing health when paired with itself and it's class passives, Major Mending from Ingenous Shield and CP in Quick Recovery and Mending. On a high health build it is probably the strongest heal in the game. The condition to use is to build for high magicka recovery though: Atronach Mundus, Whichmother's Potent Brew (or Ghastly Eye Bowl), various set bonuses (Akaviri Dragonguard 2p, Choklethorn & Shadowrend 1p) CP in Arcanist, Evocation and Recovery passives from 1p LA, Support:Magicka Aid from slotting Barrier/Purge, optionally Vampire:Unnatural Recovery since Vampirism is a joke with capped spell resistance and you also get Undeath that mitigates at low % health (which is not low in absolute terms if you have a high maximum). You can stack 18K maximum magicka 2K+ magicka recovery regardless of race bonuses and without investing a skill point. Also Magicka Recovery on DK means ultimate generation & group mitigation - when not draining magicka you can use Ingenous Shield every 6s as dump, gain ultimate and stamina in return. Also having high ultimate generation and low ultimate costs (Akaviri Dragonguard 5p) will allow you to fill your resource pools with 11.5K at every warhorn. If doing things right you can get one of those ready in 45-50s on average. So having high magicka recovery will also buff your group by increasing warhorn uptime. Some may opt for Mages Guild:Balance for sustain instead of stacking recovery, but personally I dislike that skill for the self-heals debuff you get; it also bot nerfed precisely because the developers considered tanks were "overusing it" and "making content easier than intended". So unless you have a godly healer with lightning fast reflexes, that can top you up right after you cast it, I wouldn't recommend it.

Tannus15 · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Tannus15 I didn't claim "No other set helps you taunt better." You did. My list was not meant to be a complete list of tankiness sets or sets that help you tank. So I didn't miss anything because I wasn't trying to hit what you are assuming I was aiming for.

The resist cap is 33,100 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1) and you never really need to be there, I have tanked all the dlc dungeons in ebon and heavy sentinel of rekugums on my warden and my spell resist sits at around 30k and my physical sits at around 28k most of the time. So you "should" be sitting at what ever resists you get while supporting your team the most.

well, if you're going to get pedantic, vma s/b doesn't help you at all, and the self heal from knight errant & vdsa isn't helping you taunt or block, it's helping you heal, so why did you mention them at all?

Yes, you can get away with lower resists than the max cap of 33k, but why would you? why is that a good idea? I've done all the DLC on vHM too, in ebon, imperium with lord warden.
I've also done most of them on a stamsorc with knight errant, seventh legion and tremorscale. (and vma for that matter)

I don't understand why you're bringing that up. Just because I can run DLC HM doesn't mean I would take it into a vet trial or would pretend it's a good tanking setup.

aeowulf · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

DK recovers fast spamming GDB, which can get back up to 45% of your missing health when paired with itself and it's class passives, Major Mending from Ingenous Shield and CP in Quick Recovery and Mending. On a high health build it is probably the strongest heal in the game.

Some may opt for Mages Guild:Balance for sustain instead of stacking recovery, but personally I dislike that skill for the self-heals debuff you get; it also bot nerfed precisely because the developers considered tanks were "overusing it" and "making content easier than intended". So unless you have a godly healer with lightning fast reflexes, that can top you up right after you cast it, I wouldn't recommend it.

GDB is 33% base of your missing health, Clanfear is 35% of max health. It also is not considered a self heal for the purpose of Spell Symmetry/balance. Absolutely flattens GDB in pure (safe) self healing output.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

The vMA s/b gives you more stam to use pierce armor with and more magic to use your utility skills. I use it all the time on my warden.

Why would you sacrifice armor? Because the sets that benefit your team the most won't let you get that amount of armor. Not sure how that is a hard thing to understand. I imagine that that there is a lot you "don't understand" seeing "as far as you see" is not that far.

I have also tanked the craglorn trials on vet, in ebon, dragonguard, master S/b and bloodspawn on my dk. Basically a pug group each time too because I can't have a set team I play with all the time because of my work schedule.

Nifty2g · January 2018

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

dirtykdx · January 2018

Not sure what the argument is over sets, it should be team dependent, however, when your mechanics and death aren't a problem, you are surviving fine, your DPS is hitting a plateau, then it's time to push what you can do as a tank and make the team really take it to the next level.

You get your stam dps aligned on their NMG/Sunderflame/War Machine. And you change from torug's and ebon/dragonguard (that's what my team used for out crags HM progressions as we were able to eliminate the variances in damage on splits) to a torug's/alkosh MT alkosh/Ebon OT and let the DPS respec out of penetration and take that apprentice stone, focus on their strong points, then you'll see a massive jump.

Sure surviability is more difficult. You have to work on timing your synergies, but it does make a difference.

I don't like the additional block costs, but it is entirely situational, just like the gear. I mean I still recommend Ebon/Hist/Bloodspawn for new tanks on axes. Our 2nd team for instance was working 5 axes on non-HM. The tank was having serious struggles trying to do too much after watching the leaderboard runs. But there are only 3 situations where you really need that separated selfish setup, vAA Axes and vSO Ozara adds and Serpent backroom. That's it. Even with the hard hitting warrior, you can get plenty of HA in for sustain and you have plenty of mitigation especially targeting CP towards the problem areas. I mean hell, up until the Mage I don't even wear heavy armor or run a sword and board. There are comfort levels in all fights, and once you can shake that off and start pushing, then your team will really see quick improvements. You can't jump in and immediately have success with some of these setups, you have to slow the fight down (in your head) first.

Should people be mad about Alkosh being a "damage set"? Nah, they should be more mad with how disappointing sets have been for tanking since Thieves Guild that Alkosh is still that far above...only challenged, but paired nicely, with a 2 trait craftable and Ebon - which was a MoL set as well, and then repurposed as a BOP set in a soloable 4 man. Let's face it, Plague Doctor is absolute [redacted] and should have never been the meta for a week. It was induced by panic over morrowind changes, and that ZOS had handled that balancing so poorly, not to mention DID not have any viable sets for tanking on the Morrowind beta. The options were basically Plague Doctor, Green Pact, and Warrior Poet. So if it was not your 2 week stint with character copy you had limited options.

Longstride · January 2018

In their inception, every class brought unique support and utility to the group regardless of their role. Now, they

Cellentel wrote: »

This change will be annoying, but not crippling, to leaderboard-pushing endgame groups. The tanks will tweak a few enchants, play with CP a bit, and everything will be ok.

However, it will be devastating for new tanks. Sustain is already challenging, and this makes it even more so. Increased block cost makes it easier to run out of resources, and the crutch of using Shards is less likely to be available (the better the tank is, the less they depend on shards, so the cooldown change will predominantly affect new tanks). Tank is the most stressful role for new groups because mistakes are very visible and often result in a wipe, and many new trial groups have difficulty filling their tank roles already. This will make it even worse.

If this change goes through, there needs to be an associated change to the existing boxes to make them more compatible with “tactical blocking”. Things like the axes are already hell for new tanks, and this will exacerbate the problem (in the usual starting point for new vet trial groups, no less).

Olms is a decent example of a fight that works well with this change. He has a number of big hits that must be blocked, but also large windows where you can heavy attack if you need to. If this is the direction you want trial tanking to go, fine, but don’t ignore the fact that many of the existing bosses don’t work that way.

And, yes, tanking groups of adds will be much harder now. Stam drops really quickly when you have multiple things wailing on you.

As you point out, the changes to block will make certain, existing fights extraordinarily difficult.

Further evidence that the developers don't play their own game. What's more, there has been a noted lack of overall vision for the game, its classses, and the different archetypes (Healer, Tank, and DPS) since Paul Sage left ZOS. There needs to be consistency in vision rather than unuanced, knee-jerk reactions by the developers to every QQ'ing forum post.