PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Asardes

aeowulf wrote: »

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.

I'm sorry to break this to you but if you are a tank sitting in strong cleave damage

Pets will die

rafaelcsmaia

Asardes wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.

I'm sorry to break this to you but if you are a tank sitting in strong cleave damage

Pets will die

IMO the support version of pets should be immortal just like betty netch (ie matriarch for pure healing and clanfear for pure tanking) and having their dps removed, as to turn them into pure support habilities. This would make support sorcs less of a pain in the ass to manage a mini zoo around

Asardes

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.

I'm sorry to break this to you but if you are a tank sitting in strong cleave damage

Pets will die

IMO the support version of pets should be immortal just like betty netch (ie matriarch for pure healing and clanfear for pure tanking) and having their dps removed, as to turn them into pure support habilities. This would make support sorcs less of a pain in the ass to manage a mini zoo around

Yep, but that still leaves one big problem: in certain trials walking pets will trigger some mechanics like Chain Lightning in vAA, and even not killed they will get stunned nevertheless since they don't have an active block - mini-mage and meteors in the same trial, or even the axes if you are tanking those. So they still suck even if they are immortal. I can tank dungeons on my sorcerer without any pets just fine, but I won't dare bring him to a veteran trial due to stamina sustain. Pets won't make the situation better in any way.

rafaelcsmaia

Asardes wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.

I'm sorry to break this to you but if you are a tank sitting in strong cleave damage

Pets will die

IMO the support version of pets should be immortal just like betty netch (ie matriarch for pure healing and clanfear for pure tanking) and having their dps removed, as to turn them into pure support habilities. This would make support sorcs less of a pain in the ass to manage a mini zoo around

Yep, but that still leaves one big problem: in certain trials walking pets will trigger some mechanics like Chain Lightning in vAA, and even not killed they will get stunned nevertheless since they don't have an active block - mini-mage and meteors in the same trial, or even the axes if you are tanking those. So they still suck even if they are immortal. I can tank dungeons on my sorcerer without any pets just fine, but I won't dare bring him to a veteran trial due to stamina sustain. Pets won't make the situation better in any way.

You got a point, unfortunatelly we play elder pigeon holes online, so if you wanna tank, pick a DK (warden now somewhat)

Asardes

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.

I'm sorry to break this to you but if you are a tank sitting in strong cleave damage

Pets will die

IMO the support version of pets should be immortal just like betty netch (ie matriarch for pure healing and clanfear for pure tanking) and having their dps removed, as to turn them into pure support habilities. This would make support sorcs less of a pain in the ass to manage a mini zoo around

Yep, but that still leaves one big problem: in certain trials walking pets will trigger some mechanics like Chain Lightning in vAA, and even not killed they will get stunned nevertheless since they don't have an active block - mini-mage and meteors in the same trial, or even the axes if you are tanking those. So they still suck even if they are immortal. I can tank dungeons on my sorcerer without any pets just fine, but I won't dare bring him to a veteran trial due to stamina sustain. Pets won't make the situation better in any way.

You got a point, unfortunatelly we play elder pigeon holes online, so if you wanna tank, pick a DK (warden now somewhat)

I do tank dungeons on DK(s), Warden(s), Nightblade(s) and Sorcerer(m). But for the last 2 dungeons like vet Bloodroot Forge HM or even non-HM are off limits. Both the DK and Warden have done it, the NB may pull trough with an exceptional healer, but the sorcerer really has no chance there since shields don't mean anything against 100K+ base damage hits. Class and build limitations do show when the content is hard.

aeowulf

I think the NB would need to be exceptional too, not just the healer.

Asardes

aeowulf wrote: »

I think the NB would need to be exceptional too, not just the healer.

My NB tank can in fact pack quite a lot of mitigation and heal boosts so only the heals remain problematic since the only reliable self heal in his case is Resolving Vigor. Also stamina sustain is not such a big issue since that fight is usually short if DPS is adequate; if it's inadequate you'll wipe to the lava anyway:

From skills:
Bolstering Darkness: Major Protection = -30% damage taken and another -30% damage reduction on top of that
Ring of Preservation: Minor Protection = -8% damage taken and -20% roll dodge cost
Swallow Soul (slotted): Minor Vitality = +8% healing taken
Mirage: Major Evasion 15% chance of dodging incoming attacks and Minor Ward/Resolve = 1320 Spell + Physical resistance
Refreshing Path: Major Ward and Protection from Barrier Passive = 5280 Spell + Physical resistance

From gear:
Scourge Harvester: Major Vitality = 30% healing taken + a weak HoT
Tava's Favor: ultimate generation when dodging hits which means higher Bolstering Darkness uptime
Resistances: 19.1K Physical Resistance and 19.4K Spell resistance (actual vales are 25.7K and 30K with the buffs up and 53 CP in spell shield) and about 15K Magicka, 24K stamina and 35K HP with Lord Mundus.

So NB can be very "tanky" yet cannot recover stamina passively. For short, yet intense fights like the ones in DLC dungeon it's gonna be fine, but for extended fights in trials it will not. I've tanked IC and SotH dungeons HM without a glitch on this character, and even got no death achievement in vWGT a few days ago. So the build is almost ideal for the class.

Bevik

What is the real problem with the DK being the best and most used tank anyway? Since the beginning of MMOs people are always used or rerolled to the most efficient classes to do a specific role.

Liofa

Bevik wrote: »

What is the real problem with the DK being the best and most used tank anyway? Since the beginning of MMOs people are always used or rerolled to the most efficient classes to do a specific role.

If mDK DPS wasn't in such a bad place , DK wouldn't be this far ahead . It is about how strong Engulfing Flames is . My point is , DK isn't the best tank because of passives and whatever . It is best because a DPS class sucks really bad .

Toc de Malsvi

Liofa wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

What is the real problem with the DK being the best and most used tank anyway? Since the beginning of MMOs people are always used or rerolled to the most efficient classes to do a specific role.

If mDK DPS wasn't in such a bad place , DK wouldn't be this far ahead . It is about how strong Engulfing Flames is . My point is , DK isn't the best tank because of passives and whatever . It is best because a DPS class sucks really bad .

Don't know about that. If DK's weren't that advantageous in their basic toolkit you wouldn't see such a push for DK tanks everywhere. I wouldn't disagree that some of the advantages are over stated, but DK's advantages for tanking are not based on MagDK sucking as dps.

Toc de Malsvi

In other games where tank swaps are the most basic mechanic for every fight. Where moving bosses around the room, collecting adds and other bosses, lining up boss mechanics are all key parts of tanking. ESO has an overwhelming amount of content where the tank is really trivial, where tanking's primary benefit is to hold the boss still for AOE dots. The meta developed as a way to get better scores and as such has made tanking a bit more interesting, but the fight design is overwhelmingly poor from a tanking perspective.

Liofa

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Don't know about that. If DK's weren't that advantageous in their basic toolkit you wouldn't see such a push for DK tanks everywhere. I wouldn't disagree that some of the advantages are over stated, but DK's advantages for tanking are not based on MagDK sucking as dps.

If mDK DPS was a competitive and viable class , you wouldn't see so many DK tanks . For example , Warden bring more support to group with AOE Major Resolve and Major Ward , better ultimate regeneration with better Warhorn uptime and healing for the group etc. Other classes have group supports like this as well but I won't go in-depth for those .

DK is just tankier . That is all . Other than Engulfing Flames , DK has nothing over other classes in terms of group support . I am talking about end-game trials obviously . So yes , mDK DPS being bad is the main reason why DK tank is superior and I am saying this as a person who have experience tanking with all classes .

aeowulf

Liofa wrote: »

Other classes have group supports like this as well but I won't go in-depth for those .

Please do, I always though as a class NB (tank) was pretty poor in the group support area, outside wearing support sets (which is not a class thing). DK stand out for igneous shields in my mind at least.

If someone decided their magDK DPS was really that bad and they wanted to become more competitive whilst keeping playing their DK, i'm sure the choice would be stam DPS rather than tank. stamDK DPS is not shoddy at all, especially when all the stars are aligned. (72k here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd0lXJrEvJk&feature=youtu.be)

DPS, tank and healer are all different mentalities and personal preference, I just can't see the majority swapping from DPS to tank when a very viable alternate DPS path was available.

I think the abundance of DK tanks is more due to non-dk/warden tanks being in a worse state. NB & templar are pretty bad right now, as is dk healer, judging from the amount i've seen in vet pugs in the last 6 months. If all the NB and Templar tanks came back because they were no longer in a bad place, then there would be more tanks and a greater variety.

but we'll never know for sure, not until we figure out a way to get in the minds of every DK tank anyway

xaraan

Oompuh wrote: »

]

Cute pic, but yes. A set that gives weapon crit, minor slayer, weapon damage, and does 2k+ damage + 14 phys damage dot + debuffs resist and comes in all stam jewelry and medium armor is a stam DPS set. (Especially considering the damage it does will be more useful on a character that has CP build for stam damage). Pretending it's not because it can be useful for tanks to use in good situations (like they don't need to run something else and/or there are no stam builds in a group b/c you are a guild that tells what players will have to run in a trial and decided 8 mNBs and someone using alksosh is needed) doesn't make you look smart.

As I've said countless times to all the meta-parrots: You are wearing a 5pc set and getting 3k pen out of it. That's it. No 2 pc benefit, no 3, no 4, and you get 1/2 the 5pc benefit in group synergy. You get no other benefit for you for tanking. If you are in a burn group that has a fight down and you have a cakewalk of a job at tanking, then you probably don't need to worry about not getting any other benefit from the other pieces. But many players aren't in this position, so you don't always do them a favor when I see tanks asking for help and constantly being told, just wear ebon/alkosh. I mean, frankly, some of the tanking vids I've seen by people here shouldn't be titled just "X Tank build" but "X Tank build for this specific guild" lol.

anticlergy

So, I have recently come back to the game. I never really had the time to invest into it, but I am trying to as of late. I asked a couple of questions in another thread, and was very happy with the responses. I believe there are people here who understand the game.

So, I have another couple of questions if someone here with a lot of veteran trial experience can answer. First, is it possible for another tank, besides a DK/Warden, to tank vet trials and not hinder the group? I know full well that DK/Warden is the go to, but I do wonder if another tank can do it. Basically, I know what might be best, but I would love to know other options. This is mainly because DK kind of bores me. In my perfect word, NB tanking, or even Sorc tanking would be the dream. But, if it cannot be done, then I guess I finish my DK.

Basically, I am just looking to gain more knowledge about the endgame here. I believe I know what the best is to min/max, as far as tanks go, but I am curious to hear about some of my other questions. And finally, if the gaps in tank performance are so great, is there a reason ZOS won't address it? Or, is it that they are trying to make one class king of a job? I find it hard to believe that they would alienate other classes, but who knows.

Thank you all ahead of time for any responses. I appreciate it.

Doctordarkspawn

anticlergy wrote: »

So, I have recently come back to the game. I never really had the time to invest into it, but I am trying to as of late. I asked a couple of questions in another thread, and was very happy with the responses. I believe there are people here who understand the game.

So, I have another couple of questions if someone here with a lot of veteran trial experience can answer. First, is it possible for another tank, besides a DK/Warden, to tank vet trials and not hinder the group? I know full well that DK/Warden is the go to, but I do wonder if another tank can do it. Basically, I know what might be best, but I would love to know other options. This is mainly because DK kind of bores me. In my perfect word, NB tanking, or even Sorc tanking would be the dream. But, if it cannot be done, then I guess I finish my DK.

Basically, I am just looking to gain more knowledge about the endgame here. I believe I know what the best is to min/max, as far as tanks go, but I am curious to hear about some of my other questions. And finally, if the gaps in tank performance are so great, is there a reason ZOS won't address it? Or, is it that they are trying to make one class king of a job? I find it hard to believe that they would alienate other classes, but who knows.

Thank you all ahead of time for any responses. I appreciate it.

To the first: Is it possible? Yes. Expect any group to ever let you? Only if you get a very generous group.

Sadly, your at the mercy of a group for these, and why would a group let you bring a non-optimal choice to a trial? They wont, they'll tell you exactly what to run and if you dont want that going in, it's best you not tank at a trial level.

To the second queston: We dont know. They tend to give conflicting answers when they answer at all, and generally speaking we have no idea what they even want. They seem to want to cull team support out of the tanking roll, and we have no idea why.

And that's been consistant ever since imperial city. So, if you find it hard to believe, I suggest you run screaming from this game because some of us have been trying to understand what's going on in the companies head, and we've been trying for years.

@anticlergy TLDR: If you want variety, your playing the wrong game, and if you want answers, your also playing the wrong game.

Tannus15

I had a tank for every class and eventually settled on my main being a DK entirely because of resources.

the stam from igneous shields is good, but the ulti resource gain is amazing, and significantly better than anything any other class has to offer.

I don't need to be able to perma block, I just need to be able to block for long enough to get my ult up again.

Oh, and chains, which are amazing. Like, really amazing.

I mean, look at every other classes stam regen mechanics:

NB : leaching strikes. you need to light attack. You can't light attack and tank. If you ARE light attacking and tanking then why not just build for stam regen. you muppet, you're not a tank, you're a really low scoring dps with a taunt.

Sorc : Dark deal. Can't block cast. I have considered trying sorc tanking with shield wall and dark deal, but I don't think you'll get anywhere near enough stamina returned even if you spam it 4 times during the ult. It's worth investigating however because tanking with hurricane is awesome.

Templar: Repentance. If you are surrounded by enough dead trash you can tank forever! Oh, earthcore. so, umm, i'll get another tank shall I?

Warden : bull netch and stam regain from casting a heal. These are nice, but not as good as the DK stam refill on ult and stam regain on shield. Wardens also have chains too, so there is that. wardens

It's worth mentioning that some of these short comings can be addressed by sets like witchman's which gives stam and health regain on ult. basically it's a weaker version of the DK passive and spawn mother for block chains, but you're sacrificing 2 sets just to be only slightly worse than a DK in their underpants.

anticlergy

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

So, I have recently come back to the game. I never really had the time to invest into it, but I am trying to as of late. I asked a couple of questions in another thread, and was very happy with the responses. I believe there are people here who understand the game.

So, I have another couple of questions if someone here with a lot of veteran trial experience can answer. First, is it possible for another tank, besides a DK/Warden, to tank vet trials and not hinder the group? I know full well that DK/Warden is the go to, but I do wonder if another tank can do it. Basically, I know what might be best, but I would love to know other options. This is mainly because DK kind of bores me. In my perfect word, NB tanking, or even Sorc tanking would be the dream. But, if it cannot be done, then I guess I finish my DK.

Basically, I am just looking to gain more knowledge about the endgame here. I believe I know what the best is to min/max, as far as tanks go, but I am curious to hear about some of my other questions. And finally, if the gaps in tank performance are so great, is there a reason ZOS won't address it? Or, is it that they are trying to make one class king of a job? I find it hard to believe that they would alienate other classes, but who knows.

Thank you all ahead of time for any responses. I appreciate it.

To the first: Is it possible? Yes. Expect any group to ever let you? Only if you get a very generous group.

Sadly, your at the mercy of a group for these, and why would a group let you bring a non-optimal choice to a trial? They wont, they'll tell you exactly what to run and if you dont want that going in, it's best you not tank at a trial level.

To the second queston: We dont know. They tend to give conflicting answers when they answer at all, and generally speaking we have no idea what they even want. They seem to want to cull team support out of the tanking roll, and we have no idea why.

And that's been consistant ever since imperial city. So, if you find it hard to believe, I suggest you run screaming from this game because some of us have been trying to understand what's going on in the companies head, and we've been trying for years.

@anticlergy TLDR: If you want variety, your playing the wrong game, and if you want answers, your also playing the wrong game.

I appreciate the response man. I am starting to think that what you are saying is the truth. I guess it's DK then and something else for kicks. Thanks for the response.

xaraan

anticlergy wrote: »

So, I have recently come back to the game. I never really had the time to invest into it, but I am trying to as of late. I asked a couple of questions in another thread, and was very happy with the responses. I believe there are people here who understand the game.

So, I have another couple of questions if someone here with a lot of veteran trial experience can answer. First, is it possible for another tank, besides a DK/Warden, to tank vet trials and not hinder the group? I know full well that DK/Warden is the go to, but I do wonder if another tank can do it. Basically, I know what might be best, but I would love to know other options. This is mainly because DK kind of bores me. In my perfect word, NB tanking, or even Sorc tanking would be the dream. But, if it cannot be done, then I guess I finish my DK.

Basically, I am just looking to gain more knowledge about the endgame here. I believe I know what the best is to min/max, as far as tanks go, but I am curious to hear about some of my other questions. And finally, if the gaps in tank performance are so great, is there a reason ZOS won't address it? Or, is it that they are trying to make one class king of a job? I find it hard to believe that they would alienate other classes, but who knows.

Thank you all ahead of time for any responses. I appreciate it.

Most groups will expect a DK, but if you run with a group that knows your abilities and trusts you more and you aren't just 'walking on' to a team, you'll be able to get away with more variety. We currently have a Sorc Tank as one of our two tanks in vHM trials and I've used my warden and templar before. Personally, I do prefer DK, but if you don't there are other paths. But the feedback others have given you isn't wrong - most groups will just expect "the meta" because they don't know any better and may not want to chance it.

aeowulf

Tannus15 wrote: »

It's worth mentioning that some of these short comings can be addressed by sets like witchman's which gives stam and health regain on ult. basically it's a weaker version of the DK passive and spawn mother for block chains, but you're sacrificing 2 sets just to be only slightly worse than a DK in their underpants.

lol, I love this description

Diatonic

I’ve seen Tannus tank in his underpants....not pretty!

ol_BANK_lo

Liofa wrote: »

Hey everyone . Been doing some testing and ran one of the new dungeons with a DK tank in PTS today . Nerfs to PvE Tank sustain is quite high sadly . I am hoping this thread will help you understand what is going on and/or find a way around it .

BLOCK COST

Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .

Live patch block cost calculation :

Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .

And here is the new one =

Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .

Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .

While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .

SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH

Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .

There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;

Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.

With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .

With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .

It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .

OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF

Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .

I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

FINAL WORDS

It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .

Thanks for reading ,

Liofa

Yep...just rekindle the discussion. They only people complaining were a few PVP people. When I see permablocking tanks in PVP, I walk away. No big deal. But there are many fights in high level PVE tanking where dropping block to heavy attack is not feasible.

This is the third significant change to sustain that affects tanks heavily. 1) can't regen while blocking...okay; 2) Morrowind changes across the board for reduced cost and cost changes...pissed off a lot of people to this day; 3) an almost 400% increase to cost of blocking for tanks (yes I know its a reduced cost for everyone else).

So, once again, they take something that few are complaining about and made it worse. Everyone is pissed off about the Morrowind changes, so they say, "hey lets get ride of more resources". People are talking about changing away from buff sets like Alkosh to "tank sets". That wouldn't matter at all here. The only thing a tank needs besides health is resource management, and most tank sets don't help with that. None give reduced cost of blocking.

So what was this catalyst for ZOS? Why kick tanks in the rear? I think this is a terrible idea. This will kill tanking for newer tanks and dungeon/VDSA tanking.

ZOS STOP TRYING TO BALANCE PVE WITH PVP, AND STOP MAKING MASSIVE CHANGES BASED ON SMALL ISSUES. Or the very least, be CRYSTAL CLEAR why you making this change. So far you have been vague about it.

You will now make every tank the same tank because it will be required. I've seen all the PTS vids on this issue, and the general consensus is that this was massive overkill and unneeded. Heck, all PVE people are still asking to revert the Morrowind changes. YOU CAN'T BALANCE PVE WITH PVP.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

Maura_Neysa

pelle412 wrote: »

In theory, if you can achieve a 22% uptime on the Roar of Alkosh debuff, you are outperforming Torug's (on average). I always forget to save reports on this but on a group test on a centurion we achieve this with some margin to spare. There is however some weirdness in this as I pop synergies quite often the uptime should be higher but it isn't (probably related to existing bugs).

From WoeIer's site

Maura_Neysa

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.

I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.

Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?

Asardes

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.

I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.

Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?

I had vines slotted and activated, and simply died blocking since the heal was just as slow as the others.

My back bar was
Resolving Vigor | Polar Wind | Leeching Vines | Ice Fortress | Green Lotus || Healing Thicket

All 4/5 heals active and I couldn't outheal the damage dealt by the caving roof and those adds beating on me. As I said the damage received was more like 15K/S with Ice Fortress on and blocking. Arctic Blast is the same as Polar Wind when it comes to self heal, just it does cold damage instead of also healing an ally and that's redundant, since I had heroic slash applied to the bosses. In other dungeons yes, vigor, vines and lotus pretty much sufficed, even without healer, if I could attack fast enough, but in vBF simply the damage eas too much.

So it's probably the technique, not the class toolkit. I will try bringing the bosses to the edge of the arena fast when the roof starts to cave in, to at least decrease the damage from that mechanic and dodge every heavy hit instead of blocking. If you block something and you receive ~15K damage there's simply no point in doing it.

Oompuh

xaraan wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

]

Cute pic, but yes. A set that gives weapon crit, minor slayer, weapon damage, and does 2k+ damage + 14 phys damage dot + debuffs resist and comes in all stam jewelry and medium armor is a stam DPS set. (Especially considering the damage it does will be more useful on a character that has CP build for stam damage). Pretending it's not because it can be useful for tanks to use in good situations (like they don't need to run something else and/or there are no stam builds in a group b/c you are a guild that tells what players will have to run in a trial and decided 8 mNBs and someone using alksosh is needed) doesn't make you look smart.

As I've said countless times to all the meta-parrots: You are wearing a 5pc set and getting 3k pen out of it. That's it. No 2 pc benefit, no 3, no 4, and you get 1/2 the 5pc benefit in group synergy. You get no other benefit for you for tanking. If you are in a burn group that has a fight down and you have a cakewalk of a job at tanking, then you probably don't need to worry about not getting any other benefit from the other pieces. But many players aren't in this position, so you don't always do them a favor when I see tanks asking for help and constantly being told, just wear ebon/alkosh. I mean, frankly, some of the tanking vids I've seen by people here shouldn't be titled just "X Tank build" but "X Tank build for this specific guild" lol.

First of all, it was a meme for get some awesomes. Secondly, Tanking is not the hard part of tanking in ESO. Keeping your taunt and block up while activating a few abilities is the fundamentals and I'm not going to help someone build for that. If I suggest a build, its going to be for a Veteran Trial, and in a Veteran Trial, a tank is a buff *** with a shield. If you are not debuffing the boss by that 3k, you are not doing your job. If you are not using War Horn, you are not doing your job. If you are not using Ebon or Engulfing, you are not doing your job. Build guides should be for end game, not normal dungeons. Build to be the best. If you build to be mediocre, you're going to get to end game and have to switch all your sets anyway

Doctordarkspawn

Tanking, hardest in ESO?

No, sir, that goes to the DPS. Some of these freaking rotations man.

xaraan

Oompuh wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

]

Cute pic, but yes. A set that gives weapon crit, minor slayer, weapon damage, and does 2k+ damage + 14 phys damage dot + debuffs resist and comes in all stam jewelry and medium armor is a stam DPS set. (Especially considering the damage it does will be more useful on a character that has CP build for stam damage). Pretending it's not because it can be useful for tanks to use in good situations (like they don't need to run something else and/or there are no stam builds in a group b/c you are a guild that tells what players will have to run in a trial and decided 8 mNBs and someone using alksosh is needed) doesn't make you look smart.

As I've said countless times to all the meta-parrots: You are wearing a 5pc set and getting 3k pen out of it. That's it. No 2 pc benefit, no 3, no 4, and you get 1/2 the 5pc benefit in group synergy. You get no other benefit for you for tanking. If you are in a burn group that has a fight down and you have a cakewalk of a job at tanking, then you probably don't need to worry about not getting any other benefit from the other pieces. But many players aren't in this position, so you don't always do them a favor when I see tanks asking for help and constantly being told, just wear ebon/alkosh. I mean, frankly, some of the tanking vids I've seen by people here shouldn't be titled just "X Tank build" but "X Tank build for this specific guild" lol.

First of all, it was a meme for get some awesomes. Secondly, Tanking is not the hard part of tanking in ESO. Keeping your taunt and block up while activating a few abilities is the fundamentals and I'm not going to help someone build for that. If I suggest a build, its going to be for a Veteran Trial, and in a Veteran Trial, a tank is a buff *** with a shield. If you are not debuffing the boss by that 3k, you are not doing your job. If you are not using War Horn, you are not doing your job. If you are not using Ebon or Engulfing, you are not doing your job. Build guides should be for end game, not normal dungeons. Build to be the best. If you build to be mediocre, you're going to get to end game and have to switch all your sets anyway

This is only true when you run with the best groups. Running that same high end content with progress groups is a bit more work. I find it hard to believe every tank hasn't seen the difference running content that was a piece of cake one day b/c of the group and a nightmare the next. When people come to the forums for help, they don't need people just saying "do the meta" because that's already what's out there. They need help in other ways and that's where people seem to lack the ability to pull away form the meta.

And you can always swap up gear as you need once your group learns fights better and stress on the tank goes down. If you honestly think tanks are nothing but buff monkeys then you are part of the problem with this game. Nothing wrong with the mentality of being as tanky or healy as you need to be for support and then using the rest of that power to buff - but that's not what's happened. As tanking gets nerfed more and more, the meta is "allowed" to change from meta-parrots like you, it's still "run these sets, even when being tanky when you needed to be was easier". And yes, if you are in a group that is clearing the hardest content no problem, then you should be using those sets, but none of us come to anyone here or any build videos for advice because we already know what we are doing. But when people come in after trying to copy that meta and need help, they need more than being told buffing horrible dps will help and giving 1k health to people that can't stay out of red will help.

Mostly you just come off like an entitled DPSer (even if you aren't) with the whole, it's all about whether or not you can give me that 3k debuff and 1K health at whatever expense it is to you. If you need that to be a good dps, you aren't good first of all, it's convenient, but shouldn't be more than that. And if it is to the point where tanks are being "forced" to run a set like Alkosh by groups made up of people like you then honestly, zos should change the way the set works. I've even said yes, Alkosh is great when you are at the point where it makes sense (with 8 good dpsers getting the pen buff); but Ebon? seriously? How bad do you have to be for 1k health to be the difference maker for you lol. If you are 'requiring' your tank to wear Ebon, take a step back lol. Fact is, a handful of top guilds fit the meta perfectly (and even some of those guilds don't know any better and just copy what they see others doing and can't think for themselves), for the rest of the game it's convenient for the tanks to run these when they need to, but not required.

In the end, the more I see of people like you that can't think outside the box, the more sure I am that ZoS needs to completely change the way alkosh performs and just take it off the plate for a tanking option all together. It's a dps set that isn't the best dps set, forced onto tanks because half of one buff benefits good dps. But apparently, according to everyone that has argued with me, if they did this, none of you would be good enough to clear the content without that buff. What a shame.

Tannus15

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Tanking, hardest in ESO?

No, sir, that goes to the DPS. Some of these freaking rotations man.

yeah, you think that until you're the off tank in vSO.
I've recently switched from main tank to dps and omfg, it's so much easier. Maintain rotation, move with mechanics and dps the boss / adds.
Way less work. It's relaxing compared.

DPS can front load their difficulty by practising their rotation on the skelly, ironing out the bumps and working out exactly how to get the most out of their build. If you're doing it right you get bigger numbers, if you're doing it wrong, you get small numbers.

Tanks get to go in the trial and learn. Every time you stuff up the group wipes. No pressure though.

Maura_Neysa

Asardes wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

Your missing the Wardens best heal. Leeching Vines 1300 heal every second you take damage, 700 every second you do damage. Which if you run Arctic Blast instead of Polar Wind is every 2 seconds plus a 30% slow and a 200% chance to apply Minor Maim (15% damage debuff) to all 3 of them without wasting stamina on Heroic Slash.
Leeching will also proc Nature's Gift when it goes to someone else, giving you 250 of your lowest resource every second. Next to the Netch it's a Warden tanks next best skill.
I've pulled off last women standing recoveries on that boss. Fortress, Netch, Leeching, Arctic, Forest → Rez
Now whether thats enough heels for the DPS, I don't know. I think you're better off with 3 VMA DPS builds responsible for their own health or a hybrid DPS/Healer, that's what I've had with me for all my skin runs. Anyway hope that helps.

I front bar the forest and almost never use it. I can even drop my War Horn each time I come back in VDSA. It takes something like Off-Tanking Ozara, or Main Tanking Saint Olms with the healers down before I started needing to rely on the Forest.

Edit: Add this after seeing other replies.
In my opinion, Warden tanks are the best pieces of every other tank at the cost of nothing instant.
- More CL than a DK, put slower to pull off. Upside to Gate is I can Gate for larger targets than can be chained.
- DPS and Leeching Heats of a Night Blade, not as much as NB but more than any other class as a tank.
- Huge Burst heals of a Templar, cost Ultimate, not magic though.
- Sorc... got nothing on this one lol. Not really sure what Sore tank brings, group buffs?

I had vines slotted and activated, and simply died blocking since the heal was just as slow as the others.

My back bar was
Resolving Vigor | Polar Wind | Leeching Vines | Ice Fortress | Green Lotus || Healing Thicket

All 4/5 heals active and I couldn't outheal the damage dealt by the caving roof and those adds beating on me. As I said the damage received was more like 15K/S with Ice Fortress on and blocking. Arctic Blast is the same as Polar Wind when it comes to self heal, just it does cold damage instead of also healing an ally and that's redundant, since I had heroic slash applied to the bosses. In other dungeons yes, vigor, vines and lotus pretty much sufficed, even without healer, if I could attack fast enough, but in vBF simply the damage eas too much.

So it's probably the technique, not the class toolkit. I will try bringing the bosses to the edge of the arena fast when the roof starts to cave in, to at least decrease the damage from that mechanic and dodge every heavy hit instead of blocking. If you block something and you receive ~15K damage there's simply no point in doing it.

Arctic isn't redundant because it's 1 cast that Minor Mains everything around you, that cost stamina and procs the life steal.
I don't dodge roll the HA, I block them and Block Dance the roof falling. Maybe it's a CO issue? Maybe race, though I really don't believe Altmer regen out performs Argonian healing/regen.
All I can say only point of worry I have with that boss is making sure I keep up all 3 agro during the roof falling. If I had forever I could solo that boss.