PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Oompuh

Liofa

Oompuh wrote: »

lmao

xaraan

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

xaraan

dirtykdx wrote: »

Not sure what the argument is over sets, it should be team dependent, however, when your mechanics and death aren't a problem, you are surviving fine, your DPS is hitting a plateau, then it's time to push what you can do as a tank and make the team really take it to the next level.

You get your stam dps aligned on their NMG/Sunderflame/War Machine. And you change from torug's and ebon/dragonguard (that's what my team used for out crags HM progressions as we were able to eliminate the variances in damage on splits) to a torug's/alkosh MT alkosh/Ebon OT and let the DPS respec out of penetration and take that apprentice stone, focus on their strong points, then you'll see a massive jump.

Sure surviability is more difficult. You have to work on timing your synergies, but it does make a difference.

I don't like the additional block costs, but it is entirely situational, just like the gear. I mean I still recommend Ebon/Hist/Bloodspawn for new tanks on axes. Our 2nd team for instance was working 5 axes on non-HM. The tank was having serious struggles trying to do too much after watching the leaderboard runs. But there are only 3 situations where you really need that separated selfish setup, vAA Axes and vSO Ozara adds and Serpent backroom. That's it. Even with the hard hitting warrior, you can get plenty of HA in for sustain and you have plenty of mitigation especially targeting CP towards the problem areas. I mean hell, up until the Mage I don't even wear heavy armor or run a sword and board. There are comfort levels in all fights, and once you can shake that off and start pushing, then your team will really see quick improvements. You can't jump in and immediately have success with some of these setups, you have to slow the fight down (in your head) first.

Should people be mad about Alkosh being a "damage set"? Nah, they should be more mad with how disappointing sets have been for tanking since Thieves Guild that Alkosh is still that far above...only challenged, but paired nicely, with a 2 trait craftable and Ebon - which was a MoL set as well, and then repurposed as a BOP set in a soloable 4 man. Let's face it, Plague Doctor is absolute [redacted] and should have never been the meta for a week. It was induced by panic over morrowind changes, and that ZOS had handled that balancing so poorly, not to mention DID not have any viable sets for tanking on the Morrowind beta. The options were basically Plague Doctor, Green Pact, and Warrior Poet. So if it was not your 2 week stint with character copy you had limited options.

This is all well said.

Wish I had said certain things in the same manner of some of the points here.

The preaching I do against Ebon/Alkosh has always come from the point of it being dependent on your group. I've always aid every tank should have certain setups in their inventory, but if someone asks me for build advice, I don't just say Ebon/Alkosh is the meta - because it isn't always the answer, especially in situations that those players often asking for advice will find themselves in.

Bevik

I can see they are about to change some mechanics in trials aswell, unfortunately they won't do the changes all together. So we will get this Update 17 then the reworked boss/mob/dungeon mechanics probably later on.

Freeman

Just started tanking on my DK. How is Torug's/Akaviri Dragonguard setup going to be next patch? (For PvE)

Liofa

Freeman wrote: »

Just started tanking on my DK. How is Torug's/Akaviri Dragonguard setup going to be next patch?

That build is decent but there was only 1 reason for not using Alkosh and it is gone now . Even if you can't get yellow jewelry , go to nMoL and get blue or purple ones . It is that good .

Nifty2g

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

@xaraan This is funny, who cares if it is a tank set or a dps set, it does not matter at all, it is a great set that can allow your group to push higher damage. It has a part of it's set that is perfect for tanks to get the most use out of it, and it's been used since Lorkhaj has came out now, it's not a new concept.

I don't care what you are doing in Asylum Hardmode, and because you feel like using it in an argument for bragging rights for whatever reason, but apparently it gives worth to what you're saying so, I am giving my examples of how you can get the best group damage out of it. As for 100% Alkosh uptime if you are pushing for top scores, you obviously have both tanks in Alkosh. There is no other set that is going to offer a group to get as much damage as torugs and alkosh will.

Nifty2g

Liofa wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

Just started tanking on my DK. How is Torug's/Akaviri Dragonguard setup going to be next patch?

That build is decent but there was only 1 reason for not using Alkosh and it is gone now . Even if you can't get yellow jewelry , go to nMoL and get blue or purple ones . It is that good .

How dare you recommend new tanks to use the meta and learn how to support their group.

Liofa

Nifty2g wrote: »

How dare you recommend new tanks to use the meta and learn how to support their group.

Yep , that's pretty much half the tanks in the forum

xaraan

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

@xaraan This is funny, who cares if it is a tank set or a dps set, it does not matter at all, it is a great set that can allow your group to push higher damage. It has a part of it's set that is perfect for tanks to get the most use out of it, and it's been used since Lorkhaj has came out now, it's not a new concept.

I don't care what you are doing in Asylum Hardmode, and because you feel like using it in an argument for bragging rights for whatever reason, but apparently it gives worth to what you're saying so, I am giving my examples of how you can get the best group damage out of it. As for 100% Alkosh uptime if you are pushing for top scores, you obviously have both tanks in Alkosh. There is no other set that is going to offer a group to get as much damage as torugs and alkosh will.

You don't care because it proves the point I'm trying to make. All I've ever said is that Alkosh isn't for every situations and my example proves it. It's not bragging, no more than you saying the same thing I'd guess a few posts ago. But I do like to point out when talking tanking that I'm not talking about the 90% of content that is a cakewalk tank wise.

As for the 'who cares if its a dps set' obviously you do. I simply answer a guys question several posts ago about it technically being one, but explaining why tanks use it. You keep bringing it back up after I've already said this same thing a couple times.

As to the other poster trying to be clever. No, the blue jewelry isn't worth it, the gold is barely worth it. 95% of the dps you'll run with that aren't already pre-made veteran experts won't make the most of it, which means the fights will be longer and more of a strain. Pointing out that there are reasons to not use and not recommend it to new tanks isn't wrong. And let's not forget, most people saying it are just parrots afraid to go against the meta. There is a reason guys make build videos that everyone eats up - most people don't figure it out for themselves and those that do, don't need those videos, they figure it out before it's ever the meta. Trust me, I'm used to saying stuff that everyone argues with until some streamer makes a vid and then watching the tide change. -- But just the fact that someone would pretend the synergy problem could be a reason not to run it as a tank, doesn't have enough tank experience b/c that is the role it's easiest to pick up synergies with. Not saying it's never an issue, but it's night and day picking up synergies as a tank vs a dps role.

Also, I did test it again today in our run on AS, and almost 50% of the time I triggered the synergy to activate Alkosh it did not apply. And again, it proved my point that the uptime isn't as good as the parrots pretend it is and it also didn't allow me to do all the other stuff I pointed out in my example above that you conveniently ignored and the healer had to work much harder on a run that is already stressful to them. Not every group is Hodor or MC or whatever other guilds clear HM stuff the first week or two and giving advice to every new tank as if they are running with a group like that is just bad.

aeowulf

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

Although I agree with everything you put in the first post, as an ex-NB tank this is particularly close to my heart. I am not comfortable playing NB DPS and do not want to swap to a different toon. This guy is my main for a reason and is pushing 22k achievement points. Thats too much work (for me) to go and swap now.

Nifty2g

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

@xaraan This is funny, who cares if it is a tank set or a dps set, it does not matter at all, it is a great set that can allow your group to push higher damage. It has a part of it's set that is perfect for tanks to get the most use out of it, and it's been used since Lorkhaj has came out now, it's not a new concept.

I don't care what you are doing in Asylum Hardmode, and because you feel like using it in an argument for bragging rights for whatever reason, but apparently it gives worth to what you're saying so, I am giving my examples of how you can get the best group damage out of it. As for 100% Alkosh uptime if you are pushing for top scores, you obviously have both tanks in Alkosh. There is no other set that is going to offer a group to get as much damage as torugs and alkosh will.

You don't care because it proves the point I'm trying to make. All I've ever said is that Alkosh isn't for every situations and my example proves it. It's not bragging, no more than you saying the same thing I'd guess a few posts ago. But I do like to point out when talking tanking that I'm not talking about the 90% of content that is a cakewalk tank wise.

As for the 'who cares if its a dps set' obviously you do. I simply answer a guys question several posts ago about it technically being one, but explaining why tanks use it. You keep bringing it back up after I've already said this same thing a couple times.

As to the other poster trying to be clever. No, the blue jewelry isn't worth it, the gold is barely worth it. 95% of the dps you'll run with that aren't already pre-made veteran experts won't make the most of it, which means the fights will be longer and more of a strain. Pointing out that there are reasons to not use and not recommend it to new tanks isn't wrong. And let's not forget, most people saying it are just parrots afraid to go against the meta. There is a reason guys make build videos that everyone eats up - most people don't figure it out for themselves and those that do, don't need those videos, they figure it out before it's ever the meta. Trust me, I'm used to saying stuff that everyone argues with until some streamer makes a vid and then watching the tide change. -- But just the fact that someone would pretend the synergy problem could be a reason not to run it as a tank, doesn't have enough tank experience b/c that is the role it's easiest to pick up synergies with. Not saying it's never an issue, but it's night and day picking up synergies as a tank vs a dps role.

Also, I did test it again today in our run on AS, and almost 50% of the time I triggered the synergy to activate Alkosh it did not apply. And again, it proved my point that the uptime isn't as good as the parrots pretend it is and it also didn't allow me to do all the other stuff I pointed out in my example above that you conveniently ignored and the healer had to work much harder on a run that is already stressful to them. Not every group is Hodor or MC or whatever other guilds clear HM stuff the first week or two and giving advice to every new tank as if they are running with a group like that is just bad.

Yeah because no one wants players to learn how to support their group with Alkosh even with a bad group and get better at doing so for when or if they decide they ever want to run with a top guild and have the experience for what they need to do. You just sit in your own little group and never want to branch off

As for your Alkosh problem, you are obviously standing too far back, I for one haven't had that issue, unless you are using srendarr or ftc when you apply a debuff and look away it usually appears off of the target (happens with every debuff applied)

xaraan

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

@xaraan This is funny, who cares if it is a tank set or a dps set, it does not matter at all, it is a great set that can allow your group to push higher damage. It has a part of it's set that is perfect for tanks to get the most use out of it, and it's been used since Lorkhaj has came out now, it's not a new concept.

I don't care what you are doing in Asylum Hardmode, and because you feel like using it in an argument for bragging rights for whatever reason, but apparently it gives worth to what you're saying so, I am giving my examples of how you can get the best group damage out of it. As for 100% Alkosh uptime if you are pushing for top scores, you obviously have both tanks in Alkosh. There is no other set that is going to offer a group to get as much damage as torugs and alkosh will.

You don't care because it proves the point I'm trying to make. All I've ever said is that Alkosh isn't for every situations and my example proves it. It's not bragging, no more than you saying the same thing I'd guess a few posts ago. But I do like to point out when talking tanking that I'm not talking about the 90% of content that is a cakewalk tank wise.

As for the 'who cares if its a dps set' obviously you do. I simply answer a guys question several posts ago about it technically being one, but explaining why tanks use it. You keep bringing it back up after I've already said this same thing a couple times.

As to the other poster trying to be clever. No, the blue jewelry isn't worth it, the gold is barely worth it. 95% of the dps you'll run with that aren't already pre-made veteran experts won't make the most of it, which means the fights will be longer and more of a strain. Pointing out that there are reasons to not use and not recommend it to new tanks isn't wrong. And let's not forget, most people saying it are just parrots afraid to go against the meta. There is a reason guys make build videos that everyone eats up - most people don't figure it out for themselves and those that do, don't need those videos, they figure it out before it's ever the meta. Trust me, I'm used to saying stuff that everyone argues with until some streamer makes a vid and then watching the tide change. -- But just the fact that someone would pretend the synergy problem could be a reason not to run it as a tank, doesn't have enough tank experience b/c that is the role it's easiest to pick up synergies with. Not saying it's never an issue, but it's night and day picking up synergies as a tank vs a dps role.

Also, I did test it again today in our run on AS, and almost 50% of the time I triggered the synergy to activate Alkosh it did not apply. And again, it proved my point that the uptime isn't as good as the parrots pretend it is and it also didn't allow me to do all the other stuff I pointed out in my example above that you conveniently ignored and the healer had to work much harder on a run that is already stressful to them. Not every group is Hodor or MC or whatever other guilds clear HM stuff the first week or two and giving advice to every new tank as if they are running with a group like that is just bad.

Yeah because no one wants players to learn how to support their group with Alkosh even with a bad group and get better at doing so for when or if they decide they ever want to run with a top guild and have the experience for what they need to do. You just sit in your own little group and never want to branch off

As for your Alkosh problem, you are obviously standing too far back, I for one haven't had that issue, unless you are using srendarr or ftc when you apply a debuff and look away it usually appears off of the target (happens with every debuff applied)

Nope, try again. Standing right beside the guy. I know how it works. Despite your intent to insult, I don't say what I've done or am doing to brag, but to demonstrate I have experience doing this stuff. The set is not consistent. Talked to multiple end game tanks and have heard the same story. Frankly you come off dishonest pretending it does.

And I have never said a new player should learn to help their team. But I have said, something meta parrots don't do, is point out that different groups and situations call for different builds and telling a new tank "ebon/alkosh" "ebon/alkosh" "ebon/alkosh" doesn't always do much to help them. In fact it can make their job harder at times. I've explained why many times and have yet to see anyone prove me wrong. If I wanna say the set is complete trash and shouldn't be run at all, ever - you'd have something to come at me with. But it isn't what I've been saying.

Nifty2g

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@xaraan To be fair, the Olms shielding mechanic actually works in Alkosh's favor.

New protectors spawn approximately every 10s after the death of the previous protector (the exception is when a protector is left alive for 90s, in which case you get an additional protector spawn as a penalty, which is how you get two protectors).

So the window with which you have to DPS Olms is pretty predictable: it's always 10s (plus the few extra seconds it takes for the new protector to roll into position). So just like on the third boss of vHoF, DPS on Olms happens in predictable bursts that you can plan around. And the debuff from Alkosh lasts 10s, which lines up very neatly the 10s window that you get when you kill a protector.

The key to using Alkosh on Olms is to use it right after his shield drops, so that the Alkosh window lines up nicely with Olm's window of vulnerability. If you're just using Alkosh synergies willy-nilly without regards to the protector spawn timing, then, yes, Alkosh would be wasted.

As for the adds, they should be stacked near Olms, so they can be cleaved by the Alkosh cone.

Yeah this is what I was saying, you're basically getting 100% on Olms when it matters. Not to mention though for other trials and such, the main tank isn't the only one with Alkosh.

---

Another thing, why does it even matter if this set is for dd's, every single set comes in every slot now which was to allow build diversity. I'm not exactly sure the argument you are trying to make but you are trying to have Alkosh moved to be a tank set with tank bonuses, I highly disagree.

Not sure who you are talking to in the last paragraph.

I'm saying Alkosh is a DD set b/c it is. Doesn't mean a tank cannot run it, but it's not a set they created for tanks to run. Don't really care if it's moved to be an "official" tank set or not, but a poster was asking about why it was a tank set and not a DD set and I was literally (originally when this all started) explaining that it was not by design, but why it was used by them.

I then went on to point out that it was not that great.

And sorry, but you can pretend you will have 100% uptime on alkosh on Ohms "when it matters" all you want, but you won't. I've seen too many fights with too many groups in person and several vids of even the top guilds doing them. There definitely isn't truly 100% uptime on the debuff even if you time it perfectly, just too much movement between all three bosses and protectors. This is not counting the fact that I've triggered the synergy before, facing a target and watched them not get the debuff - the set doesn't work consistently.

And, as you've been missing, Alkosh's use depends on your group. I haven't seen any other main tank on vAS HM kiting their own lightning spit, self healing through all damage unless you get the healing debuff cone and need assistance, and running backbar destro to help interupt on mini boss. So when you are doing all that and have true 100% uptime on alkosh, talk to me.

@xaraan This is funny, who cares if it is a tank set or a dps set, it does not matter at all, it is a great set that can allow your group to push higher damage. It has a part of it's set that is perfect for tanks to get the most use out of it, and it's been used since Lorkhaj has came out now, it's not a new concept.

I don't care what you are doing in Asylum Hardmode, and because you feel like using it in an argument for bragging rights for whatever reason, but apparently it gives worth to what you're saying so, I am giving my examples of how you can get the best group damage out of it. As for 100% Alkosh uptime if you are pushing for top scores, you obviously have both tanks in Alkosh. There is no other set that is going to offer a group to get as much damage as torugs and alkosh will.

You don't care because it proves the point I'm trying to make. All I've ever said is that Alkosh isn't for every situations and my example proves it. It's not bragging, no more than you saying the same thing I'd guess a few posts ago. But I do like to point out when talking tanking that I'm not talking about the 90% of content that is a cakewalk tank wise.

As for the 'who cares if its a dps set' obviously you do. I simply answer a guys question several posts ago about it technically being one, but explaining why tanks use it. You keep bringing it back up after I've already said this same thing a couple times.

As to the other poster trying to be clever. No, the blue jewelry isn't worth it, the gold is barely worth it. 95% of the dps you'll run with that aren't already pre-made veteran experts won't make the most of it, which means the fights will be longer and more of a strain. Pointing out that there are reasons to not use and not recommend it to new tanks isn't wrong. And let's not forget, most people saying it are just parrots afraid to go against the meta. There is a reason guys make build videos that everyone eats up - most people don't figure it out for themselves and those that do, don't need those videos, they figure it out before it's ever the meta. Trust me, I'm used to saying stuff that everyone argues with until some streamer makes a vid and then watching the tide change. -- But just the fact that someone would pretend the synergy problem could be a reason not to run it as a tank, doesn't have enough tank experience b/c that is the role it's easiest to pick up synergies with. Not saying it's never an issue, but it's night and day picking up synergies as a tank vs a dps role.

Also, I did test it again today in our run on AS, and almost 50% of the time I triggered the synergy to activate Alkosh it did not apply. And again, it proved my point that the uptime isn't as good as the parrots pretend it is and it also didn't allow me to do all the other stuff I pointed out in my example above that you conveniently ignored and the healer had to work much harder on a run that is already stressful to them. Not every group is Hodor or MC or whatever other guilds clear HM stuff the first week or two and giving advice to every new tank as if they are running with a group like that is just bad.

Yeah because no one wants players to learn how to support their group with Alkosh even with a bad group and get better at doing so for when or if they decide they ever want to run with a top guild and have the experience for what they need to do. You just sit in your own little group and never want to branch off

As for your Alkosh problem, you are obviously standing too far back, I for one haven't had that issue, unless you are using srendarr or ftc when you apply a debuff and look away it usually appears off of the target (happens with every debuff applied)

Nope, try again. Standing right beside the guy. I know how it works. Despite your intent to insult, I don't say what I've done or am doing to brag, but to demonstrate I have experience doing this stuff. The set is not consistent. Talked to multiple end game tanks and have heard the same story. Frankly you come off dishonest pretending it does.

And I have never said a new player should learn to help their team. But I have said, something meta parrots don't do, is point out that different groups and situations call for different builds and telling a new tank "ebon/alkosh" "ebon/alkosh" "ebon/alkosh" doesn't always do much to help them. In fact it can make their job harder at times. I've explained why many times and have yet to see anyone prove me wrong. If I wanna say the set is complete trash and shouldn't be run at all, ever - you'd have something to come at me with. But it isn't what I've been saying.

Dunno man I look at my combat metric reports, works when I use it. Try again. All you are coming off as is ignorant, works when I use it so it's something you are probably doing. I've cleared Asylum Hardmode about 50 times now, have consistent Alkosh uptime, the team puts points in to work with it since it's consistent, so yeah. If you can't get it to work, it's on you. I haven't attempted to insult you I am just telling you that you are doing something wrong, all the tanks I know of that have been using it don't have a problem.
Like I said, if you look away from the target it the debuff doesn't display anymore and if you are too far away it won't apply. Seeing as you kite your own spit you are probably too far away.

Download Auramastery - track your synergy cooldowns and then optimize alkosh uptime. Thanks to @Liofa for that one. And ask your group for synergies when you need them. Like I said earlier, if you put the work in and set your group up you're going to be getting higher damage, and Alkosh IS WORTH IT, if you keep saying otherwise you're just being arrogant and I can't be bothered saying any more, you gain higher damage and you help your group out more, quit saying it isn't worth it because you are not working properly for it.

xaraan

Unfortunately, the only one coming off ignorant is you because you aren't willing to listen.

I know how to work it, it's not consistent. That's a fact, every tank I've talked to in person/coms has said they have same issues with it. Sounds to me like you are just being dishonest to puff yourself up.

And frankly, nobody that is tanking for a top guild will be giving good advice to starting tanks if all they do is say "do what I do". Tanking for a top group in any content is a cakewalk. All along I've been saying this and also saying that Alkosh isn't good for every situations, but of course, you just keep pushing the pop-meta without actually paying attention.

Of course if I was running with a group like that, whether the synergy was perfect or not, I'd use it because the fights would be about 10% as long and resources would hardly ever be tested and damage would be on point and buffing people that do 50k dps shows a major difference. Where as buffing a group that is spending half their time rezzing, and needing attention of both healers, and having to self heal, kite my own lightning spit, etc. is a little more work. I mean, last time I pointed this out you said I was bragging, when I'm just stating the way something is.

Fact is, if you don't recognize how easy it is to run content with a polished team vs a learning team that doesn't have dps test requirements and doesn't make people run certain classes, etc. then you are just coming off dishonest. Anyone saying that if they ran let's say a vHM Bloodroot run with two hand picked best dps and healer vs. pugging it from zone or finder and saying the latter wasn't much more challenging is lying. Sometimes different gear meets the needs of different situations.

Eyesinthedrk

The biggest problem in PVE is a lack of tanks, especially a lack of quality tanks. And an over abundance of mediocre dps

The problem in PVP is unkillable tanks.

ZOS could have fixed both these problems with a damage bonus to light and medium armor. Rather than fixing one problem by making the other worse.

Woeler

Doctordarkspawn

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

The biggest problem in PVE is a lack of tanks, especially a lack of quality tanks. And an over abundance of mediocre dps

The problem in PVP is unkillable tanks.

ZOS could have fixed both these problems with a damage bonus to light and medium armor. Rather than fixing one problem by making the other worse.

Even that's not gonna incentivise people to actuallly tank in a PVE setting.

Only way to do that is to not make it a unfun experience where you feel like the games working against you. It just isn't -fun-.

Destruent

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

The biggest problem in PVE is a lack of tanks, especially a lack of quality tanks. And an over abundance of mediocre dps

The problem in PVP is unkillable tanks.

ZOS could have fixed both these problems with a damage bonus to light and medium armor. Rather than fixing one problem by making the other worse.

Wouldn't change anything in PvE...if they buff it so you get ~10% more DPS:
good players: 40k --> 44k
mediocre: 20k...25k --> 22k...27.5k
bad ones: 10k-->11k

result: the difference gets even bigger.
So shocking, people even fail at the most basic maths ever...

aeowulf

Yep, if anything they need to start reducing DPS (and a lot of other stuff) by 10%

BUT players want their toons to feel like they get stronger each patch, not stay the same.

Talk about rock & hard place!

pelle412

In theory, if you can achieve a 22% uptime on the Roar of Alkosh debuff, you are outperforming Torug's (on average). I always forget to save reports on this but on a group test on a centurion we achieve this with some margin to spare. There is however some weirdness in this as I pop synergies quite often the uptime should be higher but it isn't (probably related to existing bugs).

Aurielle

munster1404 wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not running with Alkosh or Torug's. I do have a Torug's on standby and will wear it upon the group's request. Currently I'm using Shacklebreaker, it has magicka regen bonus so instead of the meta Shadowrend/Chokethorn, I swop it out for Domihaus shoulders giving even more resources. My final build has around 41K Health, 23K Magicka and 28K Stamina.

Maybe I need to git gud but I tried tanking Normal dungeons with <19K Stam and got my ass kicked. I think with CP cap rising every patch. DDs should be able to put more points in penetration and alleviate much of the burden on the Tanks armor debuff so the latter can start stacking more resources.

I know this thread is mostly about endgame trials, but I thought I'd just address the last part of this statement. You absolutely do not need more than 19k stamina to tank normal dungeons, nor do you need to follow the tanking meta for normal dungeons. In fact, doing so will merely drag out the dungeon, due to the nature of the sort of people you tend to get grouped with in normals. For normals, I recently switched to running any damage-oriented set (usually heavy Julianos, though I might try out Livewire) with Bahraha's Curse on an Argonian DK, and it's quite effective/fun. 30k magicka, 25k health, 14k stamina. I don't even have to slot self heals beyond Burning Embers, because Bahraha's procs easily from Talons + Eruption, esp. on trash pulls. No deaths, and enough DPS to carry the usual group finder pug specials (i.e. light attack spammers and mediocre healers) without bashing my head against a wall. I could also switch to a full MagDK setup and tank solely with Inner Fire/shields, but my current setup still makes me feel kind of like a tank.

Meta tanking set-ups are most effective when you're running with people who know what they're doing. You don't often find those people in normals, so feel free to be selfish and self-reliant when you tank random normals for the XP bonus.

Asardes

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

commdt

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

I looked into warden skills recently and there was also some health-based heal, like GDB, dont recall its name. Are you sure you used it and are you sure you pumped your HP to a maximum values? Personally I didnt try warden but the skill looked reliable

Nifty2g

pelle412 wrote: »

In theory, if you can achieve a 22% uptime on the Roar of Alkosh debuff, you are outperforming Torug's (on average). I always forget to save reports on this but on a group test on a centurion we achieve this with some margin to spare. There is however some weirdness in this as I pop synergies quite often the uptime should be higher but it isn't (probably related to existing bugs).

"Line-Breaker" is the actual debuff of Alkosh, "Roar of Alkosh" is the initial hit if you are checking with combat metrics

Asardes

commdt wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well if it's for self-sufficient taking, meaning heals, I have a burning question: I've been trying to beat Bloodroot Forge HM with a Warden Tank without healer but my heals are simply too weak to outdo all the damage. I basically die blocking, overwhelmed the heavy hits and the falling roof; I also tried roll dodging but it's pretty unreliable and end up dying all the same since roll dodging breaks block and you can't run with bosses around like a headless chicken since they move from AoE and it's a big DPS loss. And it's not for lack of trying. For one I've been trying to stack Enchanted Forest, Polar Wind, Resolving Vigor and even Green Lotus LA/HA weaves on top of that and doesn't cut it. The Vigor heals are laughable, with ticks around 1.2K and Polar Wind ain't much better. That simply doesn't cut it when getting ~15K hits 2 seconds apart trough block and almost capped resistance.

I've done the same dungeon HM with healer on 1st attempt, beaten the non-HM multiple times without healer and I've also beaten Falkreath Hold HM without healer yesterday, though it was a bit painful, and I had to drop horn for trees almost every time. At least on DK I can hit Green Dragon Blood and top myself up with Vigor rather quickly since I can easily access Major Mending, Minor Vitality and another unique class buff that make it tick for closer to 2K. As a result I've decided to abandon Warden Tanking for now since it's too damn frustrating and continue with that char as PvE DD build and especially PvP damage focused build. I don't really see how I could tank The Warrior without adequate self-heals so if it doesn't cut it for end game, there ain't worth investing time and resources in it.

I looked into warden skills recently and there was also some health-based heal, like GDB, dont recall its name. Are you sure you used it and are you sure you pumped your HP to a maximum values? Personally I didnt try warden but the skill looked reliable

It isn't. I just mentioned it already, it's called Polar Wind, and it's utter garbage in practice, even with 40K health:

Polar Wind

Envelop yourself in winter winds, healing for 10% of Max Health instantly and an additional 2% Health every 2 seconds over 10 seconds. Heals a nearby ally for 10% of your Max Health.

By comparison:

Green Dragon Blood:

Draw on your draconic blood to heal for 33% of your missing Health. You also gain Major Fortitude and Major Endurance and Minor Vitality, increasing Health Recovery and Stamina Recovery by 20% and healing received by 8% for 20 seconds.

Stacked with minor vitality from itself if you had already cast it once (+8% healing received) and Burning Heart class passive (+12% healing received) as well as Major Mending from Ingenous Shield (+25% healing done) this shoots to 48% of your missing health without any CP in Blessed (with 100 CP there it becomes 53%). This means that I can fully heal in 3s if I cast that and Vigor together since it benefits from the same massive healing received & done bonuses.

I've tanked 2 vBF and 3 vFH dungeons last night for motif farm on my DK and the difference is like night and day when it comes to self heals, stamina sustain and pretty much everything else. For example I can chain 10 mobs in the time that it takes 3 portals to arm and grab one mob each. I think I can easily beat vBF HM even without healer on my DK with a little more practice and better group coordination, but with the warden is much, much harder and I'll have to sacrifice group DPS always casting Healing Thicket instead of Aggressive Warhorn just to stay alive. At the end of the dungeon runs I felt much tankier with 33K health on my DK than 40K on the Warden, using the same gear: 5 Ebon Armory 5 Torug's Pact 1 Choklethorn 1 Shadowrend, Atronach mundus, instead of Lord and Whichmother's Potent Brew instead of max stamina+health food. What decisively swings the balance towards DK it that it has a much better survival and sustain toolkit, and it runs almost entirely on magicka and ultimate. In fact my next off-tanking & dungeon setup will be mixed weight 5 Armor of the Seducer 5 Akaviri Dragonguard with the said monster pieces and max magicka+health food.

Ftiryaki13

Liofa wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Not having tanked yet, I don't know every nuance, so please excuse a simple question:

Why do destro staffs give better crusher uptime than other weapons might?

@FrancisCrawford

Hello ! I am getting this question a lot , even though been posting videos of me that include it in end-game content for around 8-9 months ^^

So the idea is , Blockade procs the enchant of the weapon you are holding . Let's say , I have an Infused Crusher on my 1h/s bar and an Infused Weakening on my Destro bar . When I use Blockade , it will proc my Weakening enchant . When I switch to my front bar , that blockade will start proccing my Crusher enchant . If this explanation is not enough , here is a video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVYQIYuhJ4

This strat basically gives you the best Crusher uptime possible , can even proc it from range/stunned/immobilized etc. for whatever reason . It is simply best for Crusher uptime .

So this also means that you can proc the enchant to multiple enemies without actually hitting them with the melee weapon?

Liofa

Ftiryaki13 wrote: »

So this also means that you can proc the enchant to multiple enemies without actually hitting them with the melee weapon?

Not multiple . It procs on the enemy closest to you .

aeowulf

There are at least 2 classes in significantly worse places than DK/Warden for tanking. They should be a bit, but certainly not by the massive gap they are. Roll on class balance changes ^^

Btw, Sorc has a '35% of max health' self heal that ignores the equilibrium skill 50% reduction. Hows that for making GDB look weak.