PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Nolic1 · January 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all. The reason for Argonian is there passive for potions makes it easier with the lower stam and magicka to manage the lower resource pools along with some of the other passives. Woeler tanks with a Khajitt DK with the same meta set up many others do and does it fine with a 35k hp and 17k stam and 17k magicka.

As for Block Casting costing more no what they need to look into is changing the mechanics for how often we have to block things to a lesser degree so we can have time to manage resources on tanks like through heavy attacks and such. But I think we will not see that till the next major update when we could see changes in alot of other things because by then it will have been a 1 year sense Morrowind which would of given them time to gather alot more data and have time to adjust things accordingly or at least thats what I am hoping they do.

Asardes · January 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE

They changed Battle Roar and Helping Hands from a percentage based to a fixed amount restore per cast. If your resource pool was under 20K it was a buff, if it was above it was a nerf. For tanks it wasn't such a big nerf, since most had about that much magicka and stamina, with the rest in health. Neither it was a nerf for PvP Magicka DKs witch had high magicka recovery and used stamina for blocking. PvE stamina DKs who did heavy attacks a lot weren't affected that much either, and they received a buff from the changes to Destruction Staff passives and skills, namely the off-balance from lightning blockade. But PvE magicka DDs were devastated, since they didn't have any other sustain tool but battle roar. This came on top of the more general nerfs to sustain: elimination of cost reduction CP and reduction of recovery ones from 25% to 15%. Only crutch that was left was off-balance high up time, and that will be knocked as well.

Liofa · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all.

This is very , very wrong . You need stamina return tools while blocking to be able to permablock . Increasing your stamina pool doesn't mean you can permablock . It means you can hold block for longer time . It is not the same thing as permablocking . Max Stamina has nothing to do with stamina sustain except Undaunted passive but that's hardly a sustain tool . If what you said was true , everyone would play Templar .

Nolic1 · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all.

This is very , very wrong . You need stamina return tools while blocking to be able to permablock . Increasing your stamina pool doesn't mean you can permablock . It means you can hold block for longer time . It is not the same thing as permablocking . Max Stamina has nothing to do with stamina sustain except Undaunted passive but that's hardly a sustain tool . If what you said was true , everyone would play Templar .

Templar does have the better block against melee attacks its a passive in the class. As for sustianing block yes a higher stam pool allows you to block longer and more attacks perma blocking is done through managing your stamina return through potions and passive skill lines the dK has helping hands and battle roar and trust me thats not enough to sustain a perma block the passive and synergy's that give resources like spear shards and orbs plus the undaunted passives it what sustains tanks through blocking you even stat this in one of your own videos. Along with using pots off cool down and you even stat argonian is best for this cause of there racial passive you along with Woeler say this heck even Alcast says this. So ether you guys who are the people who push the end game meta are wrong or we have been playing a completely different game than you.

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

https://youtu.be/FPZRTesLF0g

Sorry I pronounced your name wrong Liofa.

kimjovikenb16_ESO · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

The reason you see tanks run 40k health with 20k stam is because with Morrowind, ZOS effectively killed any reason to stack stamina.

Vigor nerf
Max health scaling heals for DK and Warden
Never forgetti the launch week where Igneous was absolutely bonkers

Max stamina just doesn't bring any benefits as opposed to health which increases your tankiness + increase your self heals.

And jesus christ why do you link to Sherman's Gaming? He has no idea what he's talking about most of the time. He calls for and "endgame fix" because tanks are not playing like him with his 2H build using hardened enchant and brawler.

Nolic1 · January 2018

kimjovikenb16_ESO wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

The reason you see tanks run 40k health with 20k stam is because with Morrowind, ZOS effectively killed any reason to stack stamina.
Vigor nerf

Max health scaling heals for DK and Warden

Never forgetti the launch week where Igneous was absolutely bonkers

Max stamina just doesn't bring any benefits as opposed to health which increases your tankiness + increase your self heals.

And jesus christ why do you link to Sherman's Gaming? He has no idea what he's talking about most of the time. He calls for and "endgame fix" because tanks are not playing like him with his 2H build using hardened enchant and brawler.

Well first off I link my own videos cause I am Sherman. As for the increased heals health has nothing to do with that its armor passives and class passives that do that Like the draconic passive burning heart that gives 12% healing received on DK when draconic ability is active that gives you better heals received and the 8% healing received form 5 heavy and the tiny 4% you get from ebon that many say they do not not need when all dks run GDB and have it active alot thats were the high helaing comes from. And thanks for your kind words on saying what you did about me and not knowing anything.

Destruent · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

kimjovikenb16_ESO wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

The reason you see tanks run 40k health with 20k stam is because with Morrowind, ZOS effectively killed any reason to stack stamina.
Vigor nerf

Max health scaling heals for DK and Warden

Never forgetti the launch week where Igneous was absolutely bonkers

Max stamina just doesn't bring any benefits as opposed to health which increases your tankiness + increase your self heals.

And jesus christ why do you link to Sherman's Gaming? He has no idea what he's talking about most of the time. He calls for and "endgame fix" because tanks are not playing like him with his 2H build using hardened enchant and brawler.

Well first off I link my own videos cause I am Sherman. As for the increased heals health has nothing to do with that its armor passives and class passives that do that Like the draconic passive burning heart that gives 12% healing received on DK when draconic ability is active that gives you better heals received and the 8% healing received form 5 heavy and the tiny 4% you get from ebon that many say they do not not need when all dks run GDB and have it active alot thats were the high helaing comes from. And thanks for your kind words on saying what you did about me and not knowing anything.

DKs main selfheal: Dragonblood: "Heals 33% of missing HP"
No, does clearly NOT scale with your Max-HP, seems like everyone was using it wrong.

Asardes · January 2018

If "the amount you can block" wouldn't have diminishing returns as you stack it from Class and 1H+S skill line passives, people will still be running Footman's Fortune set. ATM virtually no one runs that, except maybe new players who find it in guild stores for a few hundred gold.

Draconic Power: Iron Skin - Block an additional 10% damage vs.
Aedric Separ: Spear Wall - Increases the amount of damage you can block against melee attacks by 15%.

One Hand and Shield: Sword and Board - Increases your Weapon Damage by 5% and the amount of damage you can block by 20%

One Hand and Shield: Absorb Magic - While slotted, the amount of damage you can block is increased by 8% and the cost of blocking is reduced by 8%.

Footman's Fortune - (5 items) Increase block mitigation by 8%

The problem with Templar is not that it cannot get block mitigation, but that it cannot restore stamina while blocking independently from other people's skills (orbs, shards) and their synergies (trough Undaunted Command passive). So wile they will still get marginally less damage from melee attacks, they won't be able to keep up the block during sustained fights, resulting in much less overall mitigation. That passive is mostly useful to builds that are not optimized for block mitigation since they don't have the other mitigation passives, ex. a Templar trying to block with a staff.

In practice it's still possible to sustain block for extended periods for every class, by using the 1H+S passive instead of a group utility passive like Aggressive Horn, but this will be a sub-optimal setup. If the tank has sufficient ultimate generation it can use that every 20s or so, block for free, weave 3-4 heavy attacks while it's up, then block again until it fills it. This is in fact what makes people so tanky in PvP: they get ult, pop that up, then burst the players still beating on them; some are stupid enough to keep casting ranged spells at them, and eating their own damage from reflections.

Nolic1 · January 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

kimjovikenb16_ESO wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

The reason you see tanks run 40k health with 20k stam is because with Morrowind, ZOS effectively killed any reason to stack stamina.
Vigor nerf

Max health scaling heals for DK and Warden

Never forgetti the launch week where Igneous was absolutely bonkers

Max stamina just doesn't bring any benefits as opposed to health which increases your tankiness + increase your self heals.

And jesus christ why do you link to Sherman's Gaming? He has no idea what he's talking about most of the time. He calls for and "endgame fix" because tanks are not playing like him with his 2H build using hardened enchant and brawler.

Well first off I link my own videos cause I am Sherman. As for the increased heals health has nothing to do with that its armor passives and class passives that do that Like the draconic passive burning heart that gives 12% healing received on DK when draconic ability is active that gives you better heals received and the 8% healing received form 5 heavy and the tiny 4% you get from ebon that many say they do not not need when all dks run GDB and have it active alot thats were the high helaing comes from. And thanks for your kind words on saying what you did about me and not knowing anything.

DKs main selfheal: Dragonblood: "Heals 33% of missing HP"
No, does clearly NOT scale with your Max-HP, seems like everyone was using it wrong.

33% of missing health with the 8% and the 4% I show above is 12% healing received form it and also with the 25% from igneuos shield and the 15% from blessed yeah there using it right. but you add the 12% after the fact and the 8% and that minor 4% and thats 24% healing received from all other heals it adds up and does amazing things for the DK in surviability but thanks for pointing out the mistakes to me.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.

Wardens have greater stamina regon while blocking. The block changes wont be what kills Warden thanks (if they even bite it) it sounds like its going to be the fact that Engulfing Flames is going to replace Off-Balances as the new flavor of maximum DPS. This will only effect the super Try Hards so if you've met into getting the bay lost score possible, grab a Warden because tanks are rare so take what you can find. I wont be changing because I find DK tanking much less fun than Warden.

Nolic1 · January 2018

According to this video blocking will be more expensive this update the return on resources from every source is not so raising the amount of stamina you have is the only way to keep the perma block tanking a thing.

Video

https://youtu.be/Dkfb6yusyU4

Block cost last update was 88 with full block cost reduction this update it will be 336 thats with the new changes to block cost enchants and how there moving to be the first thing removed on the block. Now with the higher amount of blocking raising the amount of stamina you have is going to be important to compensate for the raise in block cost. Other then that deal with the change or quit. These changes are happening because of the amount people have reduced the cost of block by such a large amount that there is almost no cost at all if you do not see that then explain why they made the changes other wise. The devs stat its to have tanks block tactically and that is the case you have other tools to you can use to mitigate damage.

1 block
2 shields
3 resistances
4 damage reduction
5 health

all these play into the idea of tanking not just for the idea of removing damage but to mitigate it. Now yes I do tank 2 handed sometimes and I use damage shields to mitigate a large amount of damage but I do this with sword ans shield as well and do it better but its just not the style of play I like. Can I tank everything with 2 handed no not at all and thats cause some encounter require more tactical blocking and shields are not enough but the mix of them all and I can tank with a templar in any content. Just like a DK a or any class can this is not just about score boards anymore its about impoving the game for many play styles and the devs seem to be trying to do that.

Now weather you believe what I say or not is nto the case its about how to fix the meta tanking and that is what I explain above.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

I did not realize things were this gloomy. I will continue lurking.

Things are not as gloomy as some of these forum warriors would like you to believe. Min maxing exists in every game.
Unless you are looking to do that every class is viable for all roles. I have run vet DLC dungeons with DK healers and sorc tanks. I prolly would have saved 10 mins if we did it with a DK tank and Templar heals but my friends and I were goofing off and we had a lot of fun doing it. End of the day it is your call on how you want to play the game.

If you want to absolutely min max then

MT- DK
OT- DK, Warden, Templar
DPS - all classes are viable.
M heals- Templar
O heals- Templar, warden, NB.

Pray tell. How are things not as gloomy?

Have you tested anything on PTS? I have. You can still permablock on even a sorc tank if you are outfitted for it. As i said DK tanks are the min maxed class for a tank. ZOS has stated that it is their intention clearly. You will always have one class that is best for a particular role that doesnt mean others are bad. Go theorycraft your own builds or wait for the real testers to post theirs to go follow that.

Asardes · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Can I tank everything with 2 handed no not at all and thats cause some encounter require more tactical blocking and shields are not enough but the mix of them all and I can tank with a templar in any content. Just like a DK a or any class can this is not just about score boards anymore its about impoving the game for many play styles and the devs seem to be trying to do that.

No, you can't really rely on shields for mitigation as tank in really hard fights, since shields are considered before other damage mitigation is taken into account. Let's say you are almost at the theoretical cap: resistance capped, blocking with Absorb Magic slotted, Minor Protection active, plenty of points in Elemental Expert, Hardy and Ironclad, that will get you to around 85% total mitigation.

For example if a boss does 100K damage and you cast a 20K shield, you'll get 80K damage that will play against your total mitigation. If your mitigation is 85%. you will receive 12K damage. Had you not casted that shield you would have received 15K damage. So you only actually save around 3K, or 15% of the shield's value. And the Brawler shield is actually much smaller, and you have to drop block to cast it, which exposes you to unmitigated damage and stuns/knockdowns. Running 2H back bar is OK in some dungeons, but won't help you much in harder DLC ones, let alone in trials. Tanks use shields not for themselves, but rather for the group. For example DKs spamming ingenous shield on everyone.

paulsimonps · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Can I tank everything with 2 handed no not at all and thats cause some encounter require more tactical blocking and shields are not enough but the mix of them all and I can tank with a templar in any content. Just like a DK a or any class can this is not just about score boards anymore its about impoving the game for many play styles and the devs seem to be trying to do that.

No, you can't really rely on shields for mitigation as tank in really hard fights, since shields are considered before other damage mitigation is taken into account. Let's say you are almost at the theoretical cap: resistance capped, blocking with Absorb Magic slotted, Minor Protection active, plenty of points in Elemental Expert, Hardy and Ironclad, that will get you to around 85% total mitigation.

For example if a boss does 100K damage and you cast a 20K shield, you'll get 80K damage that will play against your total mitigation. If your mitigation is 85%. you will receive 12K damage. Had you not casted that shield you would have received 15K damage. So you only actually save around 3K, or 15% of the shield's value. And the Brawler shield is actually much smaller, and you have to drop block to cast it, which exposes you to unmitigated damage and stuns/knockdowns. Running 2H back bar is OK in some dungeons, but won't help you much in harder DLC ones, let alone in trials. Tanks use shields not for themselves, but rather for the group. For example DKs spamming ingenous shield on everyone.

@Asardes
Only Blocking mitigation and resistance is calculated after damage shields, all other forms of damage mitigation is calculated before damage shields gets affected, so unless we know from where the mitigation is from and their exact individual numbers I would think its safe to say that math is off. And you did mention a lot of sources that are before damage shields. A 20k shield would be lovely, could I have it

Also I'm pretty sure you can block cast Brawler, but you wouldn't exactly be able to use it for very long so in practice you are indeed right about having to drop block for it. Costs too much to spam and block cost is higher with Two-Hander.

Nolic1 · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Can I tank everything with 2 handed no not at all and thats cause some encounter require more tactical blocking and shields are not enough but the mix of them all and I can tank with a templar in any content. Just like a DK a or any class can this is not just about score boards anymore its about impoving the game for many play styles and the devs seem to be trying to do that.

No, you can't really rely on shields for mitigation as tank in really hard fights, since shields are considered before other damage mitigation is taken into account. Let's say you are almost at the theoretical cap: resistance capped, blocking with Absorb Magic slotted, Minor Protection active, plenty of points in Elemental Expert, Hardy and Ironclad, that will get you to around 85% total mitigation.

For example if a boss does 100K damage and you cast a 20K shield, you'll get 80K damage that will play against your total mitigation. If your mitigation is 85%. you will receive 12K damage. Had you not casted that shield you would have received 15K damage. So you only actually save around 3K, or 15% of the shield's value. And the Brawler shield is actually much smaller, and you have to drop block to cast it, which exposes you to unmitigated damage and stuns/knockdowns. Running 2H back bar is OK in some dungeons, but won't help you much in harder DLC ones, let alone in trials. Tanks use shields not for themselves, but rather for the group. For example DKs spamming ingenous shield on everyone.

Ok yeah I know how it works and I said I do not tank everything with it cause I have learned I can not tank everything. As for shields they take a flat amount so your right 20K removes 20K and with resistance cap blocking and depending on the type of damage I as a templar could take more then the dk in damage for not having iron skin which is a 10% to block no matter the weapon but what I do get is 8% damage reduction fro one of my skills and so I do have almost the same amount of mitigation if my math serves me right I am off by 2% mitigation to dk. But not all content needs sword and shield to tank I have tanked including the new dungeons in dragon bones with just 2 handed its not that hard you have to know how to its just no uptime of the major breach or fracture like sword and board and that only slows a group down by about 5 mins versus running it. So yes sword and shield tanking is better and a hell of alot easier for sure but I like the challenge of 2 handed tanking.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

@Nolic1 pemablocking is about having stamina regen while blocking greater than the cost of block. For a DK it comes in burst via Battle Roar, so a pool big enough to take full advantage is importat. On a Warden though it was via the Netch at 90 per 0.5 second or 250 per second via Nature's Gift so you can permablock with only 10k stamina easy.

Nolic1 · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Nolic1 pemablocking is about having stamina regen while blocking greater than the cost of block. For a DK it comes in burst via Battle Roar, so a pool big enough to take full advantage is importat. On a Warden though it was via the Netch at 90 per 0.5 second or 250 per second via Nature's Gift so you can permablock with only 10k stamina easy.

Oh I know I love my warden tank more then playing DK because of there resource management being just barely better. And to keep resources for stamina coming in that is why we use synergy's at end game along with pots and that is why the meta switched to main argonian was there potion passive for more out of pots. Battle roar works but you can not maintain off of it pruely it takes alot more to make it work good. Now the changes with morrowind made tanks or dk tanks switch to lower stam to make it work better but many still said it is not enough and thats where again synergy's come in you get more for your buck from them. As for stam not being a thing then why does it cost stam well thats so we have to manage our resources well we can not do the effectively with out having enough and with perma blocking and all the resource amounts that are not changing and it only being the cost and even with all the testing I have done you ether need to raise your max stam or you play as is and find a new way to try and keep your resources managed.

As for trials I can off tank fine with 2 handed in a few of them if my group allows it but in most cases they ask I run sword and shield for the easier run. Tanking AS is fun with 2 handed you should try it some time.

paulsimonps · January 2018

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

Liofa · January 2018

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Nolic1 pemablocking is about having stamina regen while blocking greater than the cost of block. For a DK it comes in burst via Battle Roar, so a pool big enough to take full advantage is importat. On a Warden though it was via the Netch at 90 per 0.5 second or 250 per second via Nature's Gift so you can permablock with only 10k stamina easy.

Oh I know I love my warden tank more then playing DK because of there resource management being just barely better. And to keep resources for stamina coming in that is why we use synergy's at end game along with pots and that is why the meta switched to main argonian was there potion passive for more out of pots. Battle roar works but you can not maintain off of it pruely it takes alot more to make it work good. Now the changes with morrowind made tanks or dk tanks switch to lower stam to make it work better but many still said it is not enough and thats where again synergy's come in you get more for your buck from them. As for stam not being a thing then why does it cost stam well thats so we have to manage our resources well we can not do the effectively with out having enough and with perma blocking and all the resource amounts that are not changing and it only being the cost and even with all the testing I have done you ether need to raise your max stam or you play as is and find a new way to try and keep your resources managed.

As for trials I can off tank fine with 2 handed in a few of them if my group allows it but in most cases they ask I run sword and shield for the easier run. Tanking AS is fun with 2 handed you should try it some time.

Yeah, so not going to waste my stamina on anything in that tree. Two thing cost me stamina, block and Pierce Armor, and no one bats an eye at my Frost Staff which I mcin and off tank with.

paulsimonps · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Bowser · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all.

This is very , very wrong . You need stamina return tools while blocking to be able to permablock . Increasing your stamina pool doesn't mean you can permablock . It means you can hold block for longer time . It is not the same thing as permablocking . Max Stamina has nothing to do with stamina sustain except Undaunted passive but that's hardly a sustain tool . If what you said was true , everyone would play Templar .

Templar does have the better block against melee attacks its a passive in the class. As for sustianing block yes a higher stam pool allows you to block longer and more attacks perma blocking is done through managing your stamina return through potions and passive skill lines the dK has helping hands and battle roar and trust me thats not enough to sustain a perma block the passive and synergy's that give resources like spear shards and orbs plus the undaunted passives it what sustains tanks through blocking you even stat this in one of your own videos. Along with using pots off cool down and you even stat argonian is best for this cause of there racial passive you along with Woeler say this heck even Alcast says this. So ether you guys who are the people who push the end game meta are wrong or we have been playing a completely different game than you.

Look I am not here to argue this I am here to point out that raising the stamina pool to a higher amount might be the fix your all looking for when it comes to block cost changes. You even run a 20k stamina pool in 3 of your videos your tanking end game with that I have seen so saying that will not help maybe go to 25k and you can still manage a 40k hp. And here is some proof to show that.

https://youtu.be/FPZRTesLF0g

Sorry I pronounced your name wrong Liofa.

omg dis is an BiSt vid iv e er scene eso neads maor gud tamks leik u whomst giv reel informat 2 playar nsted failcast an woelreee thy judt tryna git utube ad revenu

u du u shurmun

Nolic1 · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Your right I am sorry for taking your words out of context. As for the rest of your comment thanks for the advice I will try to put it to good use.

As for everything else from the video it does not change what I said if the numbers match up why does it not work cause you think the tank has to do all the support for the group or if you change the group dynamics nothing will change. until you can prove other wise other then saying hey we know because we have been using the same tactic in end game for years we know how can you be sure?

Your saying I do not understand what you all say and I see other ways of trying to improve things other then using the same group dynamic if you guys tested this how come there is no info on it other then people always just using the same thing. I hear this all the time well its been tested where and when was the idea of a tank running berserking set and ebon and lord warden tested and shown it offers nothing to the group or running a dps with alkosh instead of the tank. No one has and thats is the point you all say to test stuff I do and I come back with info to prove these work. I might not show game play of it in a trial and even then you will still say it does not work like you think and again you all have it in your heads from being taught one way and not looking into others. Sorry you disagree with me but if everything you all say is true why are we not locked into roles and skills and weapons and class and race like so many other games is cause these things do work they just do not work to your demands.

I am not trying to be rude but I did not start this fight nether did you others did a long time ago when craglorn came out and the meta started it birth. So I am sorry if I cam off as being rude or I do not respect your knowledge I do alot I just can not take the idea of one thing working and only that. So I will continue to push for new ideas and theories cause thats what we as the community of youtubers, guide writers and any other form of thing needs to do is always try to offer things to the community want not just what we feel is best but things to offer many ways to enjoy the game.

Destruent · January 2018

The thing you are looking for @Nolic1 is called mathematics. Helps to sort out things, which are not worth testing.

aeowulf · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all.

Not true but I think you get this from the other posts. Don't forget NB still get major evasion in heavy, which according to the above theory would mark them as twice as good (but they aren't, unfortunately)

But generally Nolic, I can see what you're doing and keep going. Ideas > no ideas and whilst there is a meta that will forever be better than anything that is not meta (by definition) I also felt that heavy NMG on a support tank was an inspired idea, just a shame meta is no support tank in most trials, (this directed more towards ZoS, not you) and probably not worth running for 4 mans, unless you have a regular group where you can perfect your gear to each others.

Would like to see 8 man content too one day

paulsimonps · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Your right I am sorry for taking your words out of context. As for the rest of your comment thanks for the advice I will try to put it to good use.

As for everything else from the video it does not change what I said if the numbers match up why does it not work cause you think the tank has to do all the support for the group or if you change the group dynamics nothing will change. until you can prove other wise other then saying hey we know because we have been using the same tactic in end game for years we know how can you be sure?

Your saying I do not understand what you all say and I see other ways of trying to improve things other then using the same group dynamic if you guys tested this how come there is no info on it other then people always just using the same thing. I hear this all the time well its been tested where and when was the idea of a tank running berserking set and ebon and lord warden tested and shown it offers nothing to the group or running a dps with alkosh instead of the tank. No one has and thats is the point you all say to test stuff I do and I come back with info to prove these work. I might not show game play of it in a trial and even then you will still say it does not work like you think and again you all have it in your heads from being taught one way and not looking into others. Sorry you disagree with me but if everything you all say is true why are we not locked into roles and skills and weapons and class and race like so many other games is cause these things do work they just do not work to your demands.

I am not trying to be rude but I did not start this fight nether did you others did a long time ago when craglorn came out and the meta started it birth. So I am sorry if I cam off as being rude or I do not respect your knowledge I do alot I just can not take the idea of one thing working and only that. So I will continue to push for new ideas and theories cause thats what we as the community of youtubers, guide writers and any other form of thing needs to do is always try to offer things to the community want not just what we feel is best but things to offer many ways to enjoy the game.

Trial and Error my man, Trial and Error. Hours and Hours of testing DPS's against bosses and later target dummies. What gave the best possible out come. This is what is done with Tanks as well. What can we as tanks do to best increase the DPS and or Survivability of the group. If the teams DPS went up and they didn't die then mission accomplished. If they did not then ask why and try again. Current meta is what it is cause we tested it. What would give the greatest DPS while still allowing ourselves and our group to survive. If we could not survive with a certain gear/skill set up then we had to change, if we could then the question was more about what combination gave the most DPS increase.

Stuff like that is not really documented well, which is why you won't see a spreadsheet giving you all the answers. Part of that lies in the fact that ZOS does not give us the math to ESO but leaves us to figure it out for ourselves. So large discrepancies have happened over the years and half truths and facts have been thrown around as well as half completed formulas and ideas. What we can do is test combination and do the math on what we know for sure, or at least as sure as we can know. It is things like that that have lead to the DPS knowledge and meta that we have today.

Tanking again, is about supporting your team, and its not an easy job. How well your DDs and Healers do in terms of their DPS, Healing and of course how well they survive. The better they are the easier your job is and the less you have to focus on saving them or yourself. That is one of many reasons why you won't see a clear cut, "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY", unlike with DPS roles. Skill level of both you and your team makes a huge impact on what you can and should run in terms of gear. Its why you see newer tanks run a lot of self-sustaining and self-defensive sets while you see experienced end game trial tanks running very few to no such sets.

There is a lot more leeway in the role of Tanking as experienced damage dealers and healers can pick up the slack but the verse is not really possible. Completing content and making it as efficient as possible are different things, and many groups are just happy to complete. Very few groups care what you run as long as you don't let the group or yourself die. They will however be extremely happy if you run what is known to give the best DPS increase, which again, we know through Trial and Error. Now meta is not a constant, its ever changing and small slight changes are made all the time, right after a patch, at the end of an update, whenever really. People learn more and more about the game all the time, and new things are tested. However, as said, we are all terrible at documentation, cause most of use are probably not scientist or researchers, nor do many want to put in that much effort, and some even hide information to give their team an edge in score runs.

So the way of testing is there, math is all around us and a well known meta circulated via word of mouth, either from friend to friend or guildie to guildie or forum posts and youtube videos. Questioning the meta can be healthy at times, but if you want to change it you got to bring in a lot of evidence to prove that there is a better way than what has so far been tested through trial and error. So either you show us your own trial and error or give some hard facts with math and data to back it up. Short of that and you won't be changing anyones mind about what should be run in a min/max situation.

Nolic1 · January 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Your right I am sorry for taking your words out of context. As for the rest of your comment thanks for the advice I will try to put it to good use.

As for everything else from the video it does not change what I said if the numbers match up why does it not work cause you think the tank has to do all the support for the group or if you change the group dynamics nothing will change. until you can prove other wise other then saying hey we know because we have been using the same tactic in end game for years we know how can you be sure?

Your saying I do not understand what you all say and I see other ways of trying to improve things other then using the same group dynamic if you guys tested this how come there is no info on it other then people always just using the same thing. I hear this all the time well its been tested where and when was the idea of a tank running berserking set and ebon and lord warden tested and shown it offers nothing to the group or running a dps with alkosh instead of the tank. No one has and thats is the point you all say to test stuff I do and I come back with info to prove these work. I might not show game play of it in a trial and even then you will still say it does not work like you think and again you all have it in your heads from being taught one way and not looking into others. Sorry you disagree with me but if everything you all say is true why are we not locked into roles and skills and weapons and class and race like so many other games is cause these things do work they just do not work to your demands.

I am not trying to be rude but I did not start this fight nether did you others did a long time ago when craglorn came out and the meta started it birth. So I am sorry if I cam off as being rude or I do not respect your knowledge I do alot I just can not take the idea of one thing working and only that. So I will continue to push for new ideas and theories cause thats what we as the community of youtubers, guide writers and any other form of thing needs to do is always try to offer things to the community want not just what we feel is best but things to offer many ways to enjoy the game.

Trial and Error my man, Trial and Error. Hours and Hours of testing DPS's against bosses and later target dummies. What gave the best possible out come. This is what is done with Tanks as well. What can we as tanks do to best increase the DPS and or Survivability of the group. If the teams DPS went up and they didn't die then mission accomplished. If they did not then ask why and try again. Current meta is what it is cause we tested it. What would give the greatest DPS while still allowing ourselves and our group to survive. If we could not survive with a certain gear/skill set up then we had to change, if we could then the question was more about what combination gave the most DPS increase.

Stuff like that is not really documented well, which is why you won't see a spreadsheet giving you all the answers. Part of that lies in the fact that ZOS does not give us the math to ESO but leaves us to figure it out for ourselves. So large discrepancies have happened over the years and half truths and facts have been thrown around as well as half completed formulas and ideas. What we can do is test combination and do the math on what we know for sure, or at least as sure as we can know. It is things like that that have lead to the DPS knowledge and meta that we have today.

Tanking again, is about supporting your team, and its not an easy job. How well your DDs and Healers do in terms of their DPS, Healing and of course how well they survive. The better they are the easier your job is and the less you have to focus on saving them or yourself. That is one of many reasons why you won't see a clear cut, "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY", unlike with DPS roles. Skill level of both you and your team makes a huge impact on what you can and should run in terms of gear. Its why you see newer tanks run a lot of self-sustaining and self-defensive sets while you see experienced end game trial tanks running very few to no such sets.

There is a lot more leeway in the role of Tanking as experienced damage dealers and healers can pick up the slack but the verse is not really possible. Completing content and making it as efficient as possible are different things, and many groups are just happy to complete. Very few groups care what you run as long as you don't let the group or yourself die. They will however be extremely happy if you run what is known to give the best DPS increase, which again, we know through Trial and Error. Now meta is not a constant, its ever changing and small slight changes are made all the time, right after a patch, at the end of an update, whenever really. People learn more and more about the game all the time, and new things are tested. However, as said, we are all terrible at documentation, cause most of use are probably not scientist or researchers, nor do many want to put in that much effort, and some even hide information to give their team an edge in score runs.

So the way of testing is there, math is all around us and a well known meta circulated via word of mouth, either from friend to friend or guildie to guildie or forum posts and youtube videos. Questioning the meta can be healthy at times, but if you want to change it you got to bring in a lot of evidence to prove that there is a better way than what has so far been tested through trial and error. So either you show us your own trial and error or give some hard facts with math and data to back it up. Short of that and you won't be changing anyones mind about what should be run in a min/max situation.

Oh I agree with everything you say what I am saying is the meta is not the only way I know its not. But when it comes to the change of block cost the cost went up if you do not adjust your own stats to the value you are at a loss so adjusting for that loss puts you back to were you where or it could be a gain. And yes I tested this during the first week of PTS. if you adjust your stamina to a greater value to compensate for the change to block cost it will balance out as you said math and it can help out. Now to the video it was the fact I do not play the meta live does not mean I do not use it to test other ideas I would not of been able to 2 handed tank at all if I did not learn how to and it was people like you that helped me to understand the math to make it work. and again I do not play that way all the time only when I feel like it and my group allows it.

There will always be meta but there will always be none meta and that is where I spend my time cause I am not after the score or to be the best but just to complete. And your right we do not know all the math I have stated this countless times and trial and error is not out of context for me when I had lots of trial and error getting the 2 handed tanking down cause I had no guide. I do listen I just do not do the meta I do me. Sorry just not a fan of cookie cutter builds if I really wanted that I would go play Diablo or Tera where there is not real selection in choice. But I get what your saying I was just trying to offer other ideas cause you asked for them.

usmcjdking · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all.

This is very , very wrong . You need stamina return tools while blocking to be able to permablock . Increasing your stamina pool doesn't mean you can permablock . It means you can hold block for longer time . It is not the same thing as permablocking . Max Stamina has nothing to do with stamina sustain except Undaunted passive but that's hardly a sustain tool . If what you said was true , everyone would play Templar .

Any class can permablock.

Any. Class.

Some classes require more effort and direct customization towards being able to do it - but any class can do it and to say otherwise is patently false.

paulsimonps · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Your right I am sorry for taking your words out of context. As for the rest of your comment thanks for the advice I will try to put it to good use.

As for everything else from the video it does not change what I said if the numbers match up why does it not work cause you think the tank has to do all the support for the group or if you change the group dynamics nothing will change. until you can prove other wise other then saying hey we know because we have been using the same tactic in end game for years we know how can you be sure?

Your saying I do not understand what you all say and I see other ways of trying to improve things other then using the same group dynamic if you guys tested this how come there is no info on it other then people always just using the same thing. I hear this all the time well its been tested where and when was the idea of a tank running berserking set and ebon and lord warden tested and shown it offers nothing to the group or running a dps with alkosh instead of the tank. No one has and thats is the point you all say to test stuff I do and I come back with info to prove these work. I might not show game play of it in a trial and even then you will still say it does not work like you think and again you all have it in your heads from being taught one way and not looking into others. Sorry you disagree with me but if everything you all say is true why are we not locked into roles and skills and weapons and class and race like so many other games is cause these things do work they just do not work to your demands.

I am not trying to be rude but I did not start this fight nether did you others did a long time ago when craglorn came out and the meta started it birth. So I am sorry if I cam off as being rude or I do not respect your knowledge I do alot I just can not take the idea of one thing working and only that. So I will continue to push for new ideas and theories cause thats what we as the community of youtubers, guide writers and any other form of thing needs to do is always try to offer things to the community want not just what we feel is best but things to offer many ways to enjoy the game.

Trial and Error my man, Trial and Error. Hours and Hours of testing DPS's against bosses and later target dummies. What gave the best possible out come. This is what is done with Tanks as well. What can we as tanks do to best increase the DPS and or Survivability of the group. If the teams DPS went up and they didn't die then mission accomplished. If they did not then ask why and try again. Current meta is what it is cause we tested it. What would give the greatest DPS while still allowing ourselves and our group to survive. If we could not survive with a certain gear/skill set up then we had to change, if we could then the question was more about what combination gave the most DPS increase.

Stuff like that is not really documented well, which is why you won't see a spreadsheet giving you all the answers. Part of that lies in the fact that ZOS does not give us the math to ESO but leaves us to figure it out for ourselves. So large discrepancies have happened over the years and half truths and facts have been thrown around as well as half completed formulas and ideas. What we can do is test combination and do the math on what we know for sure, or at least as sure as we can know. It is things like that that have lead to the DPS knowledge and meta that we have today.

Tanking again, is about supporting your team, and its not an easy job. How well your DDs and Healers do in terms of their DPS, Healing and of course how well they survive. The better they are the easier your job is and the less you have to focus on saving them or yourself. That is one of many reasons why you won't see a clear cut, "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY", unlike with DPS roles. Skill level of both you and your team makes a huge impact on what you can and should run in terms of gear. Its why you see newer tanks run a lot of self-sustaining and self-defensive sets while you see experienced end game trial tanks running very few to no such sets.

There is a lot more leeway in the role of Tanking as experienced damage dealers and healers can pick up the slack but the verse is not really possible. Completing content and making it as efficient as possible are different things, and many groups are just happy to complete. Very few groups care what you run as long as you don't let the group or yourself die. They will however be extremely happy if you run what is known to give the best DPS increase, which again, we know through Trial and Error. Now meta is not a constant, its ever changing and small slight changes are made all the time, right after a patch, at the end of an update, whenever really. People learn more and more about the game all the time, and new things are tested. However, as said, we are all terrible at documentation, cause most of use are probably not scientist or researchers, nor do many want to put in that much effort, and some even hide information to give their team an edge in score runs.

So the way of testing is there, math is all around us and a well known meta circulated via word of mouth, either from friend to friend or guildie to guildie or forum posts and youtube videos. Questioning the meta can be healthy at times, but if you want to change it you got to bring in a lot of evidence to prove that there is a better way than what has so far been tested through trial and error. So either you show us your own trial and error or give some hard facts with math and data to back it up. Short of that and you won't be changing anyones mind about what should be run in a min/max situation.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Nolic1

I am still watching the video (from what I understand , you are the owner of channel) but I'll write as I watch so I don't forget what I need to say .

When you show my build in the video , skill setup is wrong . My last DK build was for HotR . I didn't even release a DK Tank build for CwC as I was using Warden . Keep that in mind . If you are showing other peoples builds in your video , please be more careful next time and check every bit . Because people who watch your videos are getting wrong information about people you talk about . It's not only my skill setup you are wrong about but I don't want to speak for others .

You have Advancing Yokeda with Alkosh . Then you replace Alkosh with Plague Doctor and say nothing has changed . See , I could make a build with Plague+Hulking+1 piece Domihaus+another 1 piece max stat monster set and get lots of stats . If what you do is the same with meta setups , would that mean the setup I just mentioned is better than meta ? No .

With some self-DPS increasing set and weapon damage enchants , you get around 3k more DPS , at the cost of all group support sets you had . This build looks like a 4 man content setup so I am just gonna ask you to not compare it to optimised end-game setups and/or say it's the same but with better stats .

Ok , just learned that that is an off-tank setup that is built for end-game content . When you say Main Tank is tanky and defensive while Off Tank is offensive ; it doesn't mean that off tanks are supposed to do DPS . Offensive for tanks mean they give group offensive buffs . End-game tanks in this game do not run anything self-defensive or self-offensive . Literally everything you have on your bars and on your gear is about group support as a end-game tank , at least should be . The main reason for this is end-game content being 12 man . You get to buff a lot more people than you do in 4 man content . That's why sometimes it is better to use self boosting sets in 4 man content but never a good idea to run those setups in 12 man content .

Here is another false information in your video . When you say that your build is mathematically better than meta tanks , it's far from truth . Best result would show itself in practice . As I said before , tanking in this game is not about you . It's about how much you can buff your teammates . Tanking in this game is a support role . Even some basic and very important buffs like Crusher and Alkosh is missing . There are things that are proven to be most effective and your build is lacking those . Yours is superior in terms of stats , for sure . Can't say anything against that . But that's not the way of determining the effectiveness of a tank build .

You say you do as much for your group if not more but that's just not true . You do more for yourself and take it away from the group . To pull that 4k DPS , you take away at least 30-40k from the group in a trial run . Just Crusher+Alkosh is around 5200 penetration which means around 10.4% damage increase . A standart DD setup pulling 50k ST loses at least 4k damage from that , meaning 32k in total in a 12 man raid . Not even mentioning the difference Alkosh makes in AOE fights . I've heard a guildmate screaming in first boss fight in vHoF while testing out Alkosh ''my DPS increased by 10k , please don't unequip Alkosh'' because Shalks were going down noticably faster ^^

So when you are tanking , one of the DDs use Crusher . Well , let me tell you this . A DDs enchant itself only does more DPS than your total DPS of your tank . Shock enchants increase group DPS . Flame enchant will be really valuable next patch due to how important Burning Status effect will be etc. What you gain by using a Hardening enchant is nothing . Damage shields have no resistances . They take full damage . They are good on DDs and healers but not on tanks . Why ? Because when Olms hit you with 20-25k damage (through block) with his normal attack , your Hardening enchant will cover only a really small amount of the damage , so small that is is barely noticable . You say you tested the damage difference between using Crusher enchant on a DD and sacrificing another one is nothing . Let's carry this into a raid situation . A tank uses Hardening Enchant and a DD uses Crusher . And another group uses Crusher on tank and a damage enchant on DD . What's the difference ? A tank that gets unnoticably less damage and a DD dealing 3-4k less damage .

While listening to the end of the video , I understood that you make builds that can complete content . Which is not a bad thing obviously . But I also understand that you take something away from others to do it . Just like Crusher on DDs or expecting more heals because you are using a Two-Hander while tanking axes etc. As a support role , taking away from your groupmates is the last thing you should be doing .

Talking about the first paragraph I wrote in this comment , it is clear that you don't pay much attention to videos of other Youtubers you watch . It might be a mistake , not a big deal . Shouldn't be so hard to understand that a build is outdated by looking at the title of video but anyway . I avoid talking about others in my videos because of this reason . I recommend you do the same

paulsimonps wrote: »

PTS v3.3.3
Synergies now have a 20 second cooldown for each individual Synergy, reduced down from 30 seconds.

Developer Comment:
In order to better support our fast-paced combat, we’ve reverted the Synergy cooldown back to 20 seconds. This also means players utilizing Synergies such as Spear Shards can expect the same rate of return they are accustomed to.

ZOS listening ... Alkosh is definitely BiS on tanks now . Loving this so far but also hating it because we are forced to use a whatever year old DD set lol ^^

Your right I am sorry for taking your words out of context. As for the rest of your comment thanks for the advice I will try to put it to good use.

As for everything else from the video it does not change what I said if the numbers match up why does it not work cause you think the tank has to do all the support for the group or if you change the group dynamics nothing will change. until you can prove other wise other then saying hey we know because we have been using the same tactic in end game for years we know how can you be sure?

Your saying I do not understand what you all say and I see other ways of trying to improve things other then using the same group dynamic if you guys tested this how come there is no info on it other then people always just using the same thing. I hear this all the time well its been tested where and when was the idea of a tank running berserking set and ebon and lord warden tested and shown it offers nothing to the group or running a dps with alkosh instead of the tank. No one has and thats is the point you all say to test stuff I do and I come back with info to prove these work. I might not show game play of it in a trial and even then you will still say it does not work like you think and again you all have it in your heads from being taught one way and not looking into others. Sorry you disagree with me but if everything you all say is true why are we not locked into roles and skills and weapons and class and race like so many other games is cause these things do work they just do not work to your demands.

I am not trying to be rude but I did not start this fight nether did you others did a long time ago when craglorn came out and the meta started it birth. So I am sorry if I cam off as being rude or I do not respect your knowledge I do alot I just can not take the idea of one thing working and only that. So I will continue to push for new ideas and theories cause thats what we as the community of youtubers, guide writers and any other form of thing needs to do is always try to offer things to the community want not just what we feel is best but things to offer many ways to enjoy the game.

Trial and Error my man, Trial and Error. Hours and Hours of testing DPS's against bosses and later target dummies. What gave the best possible out come. This is what is done with Tanks as well. What can we as tanks do to best increase the DPS and or Survivability of the group. If the teams DPS went up and they didn't die then mission accomplished. If they did not then ask why and try again. Current meta is what it is cause we tested it. What would give the greatest DPS while still allowing ourselves and our group to survive. If we could not survive with a certain gear/skill set up then we had to change, if we could then the question was more about what combination gave the most DPS increase.

Stuff like that is not really documented well, which is why you won't see a spreadsheet giving you all the answers. Part of that lies in the fact that ZOS does not give us the math to ESO but leaves us to figure it out for ourselves. So large discrepancies have happened over the years and half truths and facts have been thrown around as well as half completed formulas and ideas. What we can do is test combination and do the math on what we know for sure, or at least as sure as we can know. It is things like that that have lead to the DPS knowledge and meta that we have today.

Tanking again, is about supporting your team, and its not an easy job. How well your DDs and Healers do in terms of their DPS, Healing and of course how well they survive. The better they are the easier your job is and the less you have to focus on saving them or yourself. That is one of many reasons why you won't see a clear cut, "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY", unlike with DPS roles. Skill level of both you and your team makes a huge impact on what you can and should run in terms of gear. Its why you see newer tanks run a lot of self-sustaining and self-defensive sets while you see experienced end game trial tanks running very few to no such sets.

There is a lot more leeway in the role of Tanking as experienced damage dealers and healers can pick up the slack but the verse is not really possible. Completing content and making it as efficient as possible are different things, and many groups are just happy to complete. Very few groups care what you run as long as you don't let the group or yourself die. They will however be extremely happy if you run what is known to give the best DPS increase, which again, we know through Trial and Error. Now meta is not a constant, its ever changing and small slight changes are made all the time, right after a patch, at the end of an update, whenever really. People learn more and more about the game all the time, and new things are tested. However, as said, we are all terrible at documentation, cause most of use are probably not scientist or researchers, nor do many want to put in that much effort, and some even hide information to give their team an edge in score runs.

So the way of testing is there, math is all around us and a well known meta circulated via word of mouth, either from friend to friend or guildie to guildie or forum posts and youtube videos. Questioning the meta can be healthy at times, but if you want to change it you got to bring in a lot of evidence to prove that there is a better way than what has so far been tested through trial and error. So either you show us your own trial and error or give some hard facts with math and data to back it up. Short of that and you won't be changing anyones mind about what should be run in a min/max situation.

Oh I agree with everything you say what I am saying is the meta is not the only way I know its not. But when it comes to the change of block cost the cost went up if you do not adjust your own stats to the value you are at a loss so adjusting for that loss puts you back to were you where or it could be a gain. And yes I tested this during the first week of PTS. if you adjust your stamina to a greater value to compensate for the change to block cost it will balance out as you said math and it can help out. Now to the video it was the fact I do not play the meta live does not mean I do not use it to test other ideas I would not of been able to 2 handed tank at all if I did not learn how to and it was people like you that helped me to understand the math to make it work. and again I do not play that way all the time only when I feel like it and my group allows it.

There will always be meta but there will always be none meta and that is where I spend my time cause I am not after the score or to be the best but just to complete. And your right we do not know all the math I have stated this countless times and trial and error is not out of context for me when I had lots of trial and error getting the 2 handed tanking down cause I had no guide. I do listen I just do not do the meta I do me. Sorry just not a fan of cookie cutter builds if I really wanted that I would go play Diablo or Tera where there is not real selection in choice. But I get what your saying I was just trying to offer other ideas cause you asked for them.

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

Liofa · January 2018

Now to the video it was the fact I do not play the meta live does not mean I do not use it to test other ideas

@Nolic1

Even with this here you said , I honestly don't understand why you want to make an obviously weaker build . You can still make a proper build that can compete with meta . You don't have to gimp the group that much just to play your own style . I mean , when I first completed the 5th platform nuke on Rakkhat HM , I was using a build that is far from what people considered meta during that time . Did I prove it to be as effective as meta builds ? Hell yes . There were only a few groups that done it back then and I was one of them , playing with an absurd build . If you want me to believe that your build is as effective as meta , show me some videos and scores . I am gonna be honest here . I took me about a month to make a proper Warden Main Tank build . I was raiding with different gear and CP setups everytime to find what works best . That build has proven itself in leaderboards . When you publish 10 end-game tank builds for a patch that is not even out yet , that makes me doubt these tests you are doing . Especially the ones that makes you think higher Max Stamina gives more sustain .

usmcjdking wrote: »

Any class can permablock.

Any. Class.

Some classes require more effort and direct customization towards being able to do it - but any class can do it and to say otherwise is patently false.

I was referring to his reasoning for people choosing DK over other classes . Not the ''any class can permablock'' part . I thought this was very clear but whatever ^^