Dark Deal and update 17

Derra · January 2018

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

According to eso head the dark conversion tooltip states 8k health return at a 3200 stam cost. Its a 1 sec cast time then another 1 sec to recieve the health. Im not sure if percent amps are figured in or not i am at work and cant check with a return of around 2200-2500 magicka. Considering most magsorcs have around 9 to 10k stam this is roughly around 3 conversions and you are empty giving you an effective 24k health return and an additional 6 to 7 seconds where you would be out of combat and vulnerable to attack. You are then out of stam so no blocking or roll dodging incoming attacks. So dd or dc is not advisable in an in fight situation. So LL would be a better health recovery option as its a dot and you can still shield or go offensive while passively gaining health

Darkdeal heals for ~4300 per cast on my magsorc and can´t crit at 2k stamina cost.
Siphoning attacks heals for 980 per lightattack and can crit on my magblade at 9xx mag cost.

Darkdeal also needs to return resources atleast 2:1 as it otherwise becomes favorable to simply replace stamrec (that you need to sustain darkdeal) with straight up magica regeneration.

xiZeroPointix · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

According to eso head the dark conversion tooltip states 8k health return at a 3200 stam cost. Its a 1 sec cast time then another 1 sec to recieve the health. Im not sure if percent amps are figured in or not i am at work and cant check with a return of around 2200-2500 magicka. Considering most magsorcs have around 9 to 10k stam this is roughly around 3 conversions and you are empty giving you an effective 24k health return and an additional 6 to 7 seconds where you would be out of combat and vulnerable to attack. You are then out of stam so no blocking or roll dodging incoming attacks. So dd or dc is not advisable in an in fight situation. So LL would be a better health recovery option as its a dot and you can still shield or go offensive while passively gaining health

Darkdeal heals for ~4300 per cast on my magsorc and can´t crit at 2k stamina cost.
Siphoning attacks heals for 980 per lightattack and can crit on my magblade at 9xx mag cost.

So so looks like the tooltips was erroneous. Thank you for the clarification

Kilandros · January 2018

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

According to eso head the dark conversion tooltip states 8k health return at a 3200 stam cost. Its a 1 sec cast time then another 1 sec to recieve the health. Im not sure if percent amps are figured in or not i am at work and cant check with a return of around 2200-2500 magicka. Considering most magsorcs have around 9 to 10k stam this is roughly around 3 conversions and you are empty giving you an effective 24k health return and an additional 6 to 7 seconds where you would be out of combat and vulnerable to attack. You are then out of stam so no blocking or roll dodging incoming attacks. So dd or dc is not advisable in an in fight situation. So LL would be a better health recovery option as its a dot and you can still shield or go offensive while passively gaining health

Darkdeal heals for ~4300 per cast on my magsorc and can´t crit at 2k stamina cost.
Siphoning attacks heals for 980 per lightattack and can crit on my magblade at 9xx mag cost.

So so looks like the tooltips was erroneous. Thank you for the clarification

The tooltip was probably correct it's just that the heal is reduced by Battle Spirit.

Derra · January 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

According to eso head the dark conversion tooltip states 8k health return at a 3200 stam cost. Its a 1 sec cast time then another 1 sec to recieve the health. Im not sure if percent amps are figured in or not i am at work and cant check with a return of around 2200-2500 magicka. Considering most magsorcs have around 9 to 10k stam this is roughly around 3 conversions and you are empty giving you an effective 24k health return and an additional 6 to 7 seconds where you would be out of combat and vulnerable to attack. You are then out of stam so no blocking or roll dodging incoming attacks. So dd or dc is not advisable in an in fight situation. So LL would be a better health recovery option as its a dot and you can still shield or go offensive while passively gaining health

Darkdeal heals for ~4300 per cast on my magsorc and can´t crit at 2k stamina cost.
Siphoning attacks heals for 980 per lightattack and can crit on my magblade at 9xx mag cost.

So so looks like the tooltips was erroneous. Thank you for the clarification

The tooltip was probably correct it's just that the heal is reduced by Battle Spirit.

Yeah those are the numbers i see in cyrodiil.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · January 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

xiZeroPointix · January 2018

The plot thickens....completely spaced battle spirit. Its an effective skill..but alot of the forums i read from people who play other classes seem to think that the skill is the sole savior of sorcerers. Its strong, but its a crutch this skill can not replace passive regen and banking on this skill for your recovery is a dps loss and in mid combat it requires line of sight for roughly 5 to 10 ten seconds to get topped off ..it cannot be canceled because you simply wont get the resource return from it..it can be bashed in pvp and in duels it leaves you vulnerable. Again powerful but skillful use is the key. I actually posted a list of buffs and debuffs by class or read it here :

[/quote]

This is the reason sorcs have shields...dark exchange and streak. The lack of class ability options. Sorcs are powerful in group play and were designed for such situations...absorbing buffs from other players is what makes the sorc shine on the battlefield. Solo play takes skill of a good player and they are far and few in between

Derra · January 2018

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Honestly - what about it is skillful play?

It just an uphill battle other classes do not face.
What is skillful when you can bash and deny 2 out of 8 skills a petsorc has - but the sorc has no access to an equally effective mechanic to punish wrong use of your skills? At the same time those punishable skills are also not even noticeably stronger (which would warrant them being punishable) than normal skills outside of a very strict 1v1 situation where opponents can not use los (aka duels)

In my opinion what you´re saying is nonsense.

Emma_Overload · January 2018

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Turning the bash key into an "I win" button has nothing to do with skillful gameplay.

Minalan · January 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Turning the bash key into an "I win" button has nothing to do with skillful gameplay.

Having to decide when and where, strategically, to use a channeled skill against an enemy IS skillful gameplay.

Ragnarock41 · January 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Turning the bash key into an "I win" button has nothing to do with skillful gameplay.

except the dark deal is an ''I win'' button, when there is no way to stop it. Its not meant to spam in front of your rival's face.
Its already very strong with the proper use of Line of sight, which is something sorc is already good at.

But who needs reasoning when any counterplay against sorc is op and should be removed, right?

Eh, doesn't even matter. the patch will release in its current state probably, and sorcs will get another nerf because it will be outrageously strong. I just feel bad for stamsorcs. Gonna play one myself till they get destroyed with the nerf hammer tho.

Derra · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Turning the bash key into an "I win" button has nothing to do with skillful gameplay.

Having to decide when and where, strategically, to use a channeled skill against an enemy IS skillful gameplay.

So perse any class not using channeled abilities then is less skillful to play than the ones with interruptable channels?

Also the quoted post clearly indicated they meant bashing as being the "skillful" part of the interaction.

Derra · January 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Completely broken. Dark deal and pets must be excluded from these changes.

Nope. Dark Deal and Pets are practically useless against savvy players in PvP because of bash/interrupt abuse. Why do you want to keep these skills useless?

Yeah, you’re right. Why reward skillful gameplay. All these savvy players as you say, should just learn to stand there and let it happen!

Turning the bash key into an "I win" button has nothing to do with skillful gameplay.

except the dark deal is an ''I win'' button, when there is no way to stop it. Its not meant to spam in front of your rival's face.
Its already very strong with the proper use of Line of sight, which is something sorc is already good at.

But who needs reasoning when any counterplay against sorc is op and should be removed, right?

Eh, doesn't even matter. the patch will release in its current state probably, and sorcs will get another nerf because it will be outrageously strong. I just feel bad for stamsorcs. Gonna play one myself till they get destroyed with the nerf hammer tho.

Dark deal maybe is - i still don´t know about it.
Dark convsersion certainly is not.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2018

Stamsorcs just don't have a lobby on these forums... All the rerollers will still stick to their stamwarden clone army toons as soon as they, again, realize that stamsorcs have actual weaknesses compared to its warden counterpart.

Dark deal, right now, is in most situations inferior to other infight ressource return mechanics. Pretty sure I have mained more hours on PvP stamsorc than most.

Dracane · January 2018

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

Derra · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

Dracane · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

I wasn't done with the comment

I was just unsure how to continue.
What I wanted to say, is that the amount of ressources restores does not remain the same per cast. Instead, it's adjusted to be sligthly less than what it is now. I think it restores 4600 magicka every 1,5s now, roughly. So how about 1500 magicka every 1 second. Which is less than what it is now, but you don't have to spam it and can attack or defend yourself instead. Perhaps 1500 magicka/stamina every second for 6 seconds.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

I wasn't done with the comment I was just unsure how to continue.
What I wanted to say, is that the amount of ressources restores does not remain the same per cast. Instead, it's adjusted to be sligthly less than what it is now. I think it restores 4600 magicka every 1,5s now, roughly. So how about 1500 magicka every 1 second. Which is less than what it is now, but you don't have to spam it and can attack or defend yourself instead. Perhaps 1500 magicka/stamina every second for 6 seconds.

So 9k mag over 6s for 2400 stamina.
Or 9k stam over 6s for 3200 magicka.
What about the heal? With or without cast time?

Dracane · January 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

I wasn't done with the comment I was just unsure how to continue.
What I wanted to say, is that the amount of ressources restores does not remain the same per cast. Instead, it's adjusted to be sligthly less than what it is now. I think it restores 4600 magicka every 1,5s now, roughly. So how about 1500 magicka every 1 second. Which is less than what it is now, but you don't have to spam it and can attack or defend yourself instead. Perhaps 1500 magicka/stamina every second for 6 seconds.

So 9k mag over 6s for 2400 stamina.
Or 9k stam over 6s for 3200 magicka.
What about the heal? With or without cast time?

Who cares for the heal

I couldn't care less.
It's just a vague idea. I don't want to put too much calculation and thought into it, because Sorcerer improvement suggestion never make it into consideration.

If you think back, is there a single Sorcerer thing that was suggested by us, considered ? The only one I remember was the arch mage passive years ago.

Derra · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

I wasn't done with the comment I was just unsure how to continue.
What I wanted to say, is that the amount of ressources restores does not remain the same per cast. Instead, it's adjusted to be sligthly less than what it is now. I think it restores 4600 magicka every 1,5s now, roughly. So how about 1500 magicka every 1 second. Which is less than what it is now, but you don't have to spam it and can attack or defend yourself instead. Perhaps 1500 magicka/stamina every second for 6 seconds.

Roughly what i´d suggest aswell - maybe a little less.

I´d prefer that BUUUT i think the vehement anti darkdeal lobby would soon realize that this would be a way preferable mechanic compared to infight spam - as that would allow sorcs to counterattack more.

Dracane · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think, Dark Exchange and morphs should simply be changed.
Instead of emphazising spam, which becomes uninterruptable, it needs to restore ressources over time.

If that would be the case the timer would have to be extremely short for it to be comparable to other classes resource mechanics or heavyattacks (3 to 6s maximum) or it would have to be buffed.

I wasn't done with the comment I was just unsure how to continue.
What I wanted to say, is that the amount of ressources restores does not remain the same per cast. Instead, it's adjusted to be sligthly less than what it is now. I think it restores 4600 magicka every 1,5s now, roughly. So how about 1500 magicka every 1 second. Which is less than what it is now, but you don't have to spam it and can attack or defend yourself instead. Perhaps 1500 magicka/stamina every second for 6 seconds.

Roughly what i´d suggest aswell - maybe a little less.

I´d prefer that BUUUT i think the vehement anti darkdeal lobby would soon realize that this would be a way preferable mechanic compared to infight spam - as that would allow sorcs to counterattack more.

Other classes all get their sustain passively, by simply using their normal abilities. Sorcerer must still perform a cast frequently in order to sustain. I don't think that's very unbalanced.

Didgerion · January 2018

But not only dark deal is broken.

Any channeled ability now can be used without being interrupted.

That is the worst change of the next DLC.

DDuke · January 2018

You know, next patch people can restore more resources by just heavy attacking an Off Balanced target (i.e. Tactician CP) than what Dark Deal/Conversion returns :P

With something like Maelstrom S&B it should be 8k+ stamina 4k magicka every heavy attack on someone who's Off Balanced.

In light of those changes, it would be nice if ZOS made Dark Deal/Conversion a bit more appealing.

pieratsos · January 2018

Im still not sure why people argue for dark deals and dark conversion. What the hell happens when potatoes start spamming dark flares and snipes in ur face and the only thing you can do is start dodge rolling like a monkey.

Derra · January 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Im still not sure why people argue for dark deals and dark conversion. What the hell happens when potatoes start spamming dark flares and snipes in ur face and the only thing you can do is start dodge rolling like a monkey.

Doesn´t the rolldodge/block part happen ever since WB/dizzy got the uninterruptable treatment?

pieratsos · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Im still not sure why people argue for dark deals and dark conversion. What the hell happens when potatoes start spamming dark flares and snipes in ur face and the only thing you can do is start dodge rolling like a monkey.

Doesn´t the rolldodge/block part happen ever since WB/dizzy got the uninterruptable treatment?

Well at least you have to manually target those and u can move around to avoid them. Sort of anw. But having people spamming 10k major defile heat-seeking missiles that you cant interrupt doesnt sound particularly fun to me.

Just the image of having people in ur face drawing back their bows or charging their arms with a giant ball of light and u being like "ok im gonna im gonna pretend that i didnt see that dumb animation, wait for it to be over and act surprised later to dodge roll the projectiles " sounds very very stupid to me.

Never really understood what is so bad with spamming interrupts on some people. Dont be stupid and stop spamming the same thing when you get interrupted over and over again. This last sentence should literally be in developer comments. Not change the mechanics to promote that stupidity.