Dark Deal and update 17

Ragnaroek93

I'm actually more worried about Ele Drain + Dark Deal than about Dark Deal itself but that's mainly the case because I think that Ele Drain is hugely overperforming.

Rohaus

Dark Deal was nerfed a while back into a clunky state... though the description states 1.4s... it feels more like 2s before you can actually do anything else.

So... cast it a few times and hope you aren't getting bursted during that time frame? Honestly, even with the change coming up... StamSorc will still NEED to get cover in order to properly recover...

Teeba_Shei

The healing from dark deal isnt that big of a deal. If someone wants to stand there and cast dark deal in your face then just beat them to death while they are casting it.

BohnT

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Derra

Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...

sadly there is None left for the others. As if sorc wasn't been able to use DD in fights with the already existing mechanics in the game and now we see a flat buff

But that´s the point. Why should there be counterplay to sorcs resource mechanic when there is absolutely 0 to the other classes.

Sorc isn´t even remotely close to being top dog in actual combat aswell.

Well for templar it's not dying. Nbs can't get resources back when you Los them.
DK have to waste ult or have an exchange rate of atleast 1:3 for stamina meaning you can LoS the dk and his resources mechanic won't work because he doesn't get any ult.

Sorc can force to use its resource mechanic and even more with the next patch. And when morrowind launched the only argument sorcs brought up why DD wasn't nerfed was because you could interrupt it guess what won't be possible with the changes.

I´m talking about infight usage of said mechanics.

With los literally nothing changes regarding dark deal so it´s 100% irrelevant to the argument.

To the morrowind point: Yet every class uses their resource mechanic even in pve. Sorcs don´t.
If darkdeal is really that overperforming compared to other resource mechanics why is it the only one that does not get utilized in pve combat?

Sorcs can use DD infight by getting away from the fight your enemy is still alive and you still want to kill him.

We don't bring PvE to a PvP discussion or we could ask why stamdk isn't the best class in PvP if it has the highest ST damage or why magwarden is so bad in pve although it's one of the best specs in pvp or why People don't use ground dots in pvp as much as they use them in PvE.
Because they behave differently, in PvE 1 sec of casttime is not doable, in pvp it's easy useable as your burst mattters and not your DPS over 3 min

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Sorcs can use DD infight by getting away from the fight your enemy is still alive and you still want to kill him.

We don't bring PvE to a PvP discussion or we could ask why stamdk isn't the best class in PvP if it has the highest ST damage or why magwarden is so bad in pve although it's one of the best specs in pvp or why People don't use ground dots in pvp as much as they use them in PvE.
Because they behave differently, in PvE 1 sec of casttime is not doable, in pvp it's easy useable as your burst mattters and not your DPS over 3 min

Should we do the math for streak cost against a semi competent player with a gapcloser and figure that into the overall usefullness of dark deal?
I can tell you as much: You have to cast atleast 3x to break even.
That´s exactly what i said about resetting the fight.
It´s not an argument because you don´t use it infight. You run away and restart the fight completely new (unless your opponent has baserecovery ofc - which might be a valid argument bc apparently we´re discussing on a bigboss vs rene der zweite level of gameplay here)

You should really play your sorc more or stop talking about a topic you know not enough about to discuss it.

PvE is actually excellent to discuss the viability of single abilities especially when they revolve around resources because everything in pve is focused around resource cost per point of dps.
1s of casttime is actually 100% the same as using siphoning attacks (empty no dmg gcd), rune focus or netch. Back when DD had 1s casttime still nobody used it.

Ashamray

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Id be fine if the immunetime was 3s, same as the cooldown to use the skill again, but 7s is a joke, for any of the cast time skills/spells, but with dark deal its ridiculous.

If you have 60%+ health when you gain the immunity and you have resources to cast dark deal (as a stamsorc) 3-4 times during that time you will be back to full hp and full stam within that time....the kicker is...theres nothing the oponent can do about it except stand and watch as he spams deal.

LOL, what would be the point of setting the cooldown AND the immunity to 3 seconds... the Sorc would NEVER be able to complete a cast of an interrupted spell!

Channeled spells should always be interruptible. Period. End of discussion. Please stop the bad players from casting in my face.

If you can’t get a spell off, seriously L2P.

You get streak. You get major or minor expedition with lightning form/hurricane. You can withdraw and LOS. You can dodge roll. You can CC the other guy with rune cage. You can resto ult and enjoy a few seconds of god mode while you escape. There is so much counterplay that we don’t need the immunity window. Stop it!

If you are a Sorc that cant channel it is your fault alone.

it's not that simple. Because everything is interruptible, I rarely see Templar using Dark Flare or Healing Ritual. Well, Healing Ritual still will be bad but I can at least cast this dodgeable long-travel Dark Flare safely. When you casting, you vulnurable, and it's not *my* fault. Should I only strike from rocks and walls like now? I actually don't like such a niche skills.

You know I play a Templar. Do you think we should be able to Jesus Beam in people's faces when the one big counterplay we screamed was available in the hundreds of "RD OP" threads is no longer there?

I think ZoS went the wrong way here. They are trying to make Channeled skills viable not by making the spells good or desirable to cast, rather by removing essential counterplay to them.

@Joy_Division

Well. I agree, that's why situation doesn't have simple solution. I do like channels have its power (undodgeable) and weakness (interruptible). I'd put Radiant Destruction in the "revive ally' category, so you can bash it any time.
But I hate cast time spells in this game. Why do they exist in the most fluid MMO? Why here, where bash is simple, cheap and popular? Maybe we should get rid of all cast times and reduce overall efectivness for DFlare, DDeal, etc? Or make a new proc mechanic (ZOS likes proc) that gives us a chance to cast all these spells instantly? It will look like a homogeniization though.
I really don't know, but this chosen direction seems wrong to me too.

Emma_Overload

Kronuxx wrote: »

I think Dark Deal on live is fine as is to be honest. I'm not sure why ZOS decided to include DD in its list of skills that gain immunity after interrupt, it makes no sense. You want to create intelligent counterplay, not simple counterplay with limited time windows. You can use DD so effectively on live, if you learn to LOS properly, take the Boundless Storm morph, especially as a medium armor build. Use shuffle to get out of snares, and with major expedition for 7s, you easily create distance between you and your opponent to use Dark Deal freely. This is smart counter play. Not the current bs that is on PTS right now. Honestly...I don't think ZOS employees ever play their game outside of public showings.

You're looking at it backwards. It is INTERRUPTS that currently have no counter-play, THAT is what this change is about. Even stuns and other hard CC's have no useful effect on interrupters, because they are actually able to break CC and bash you again before you can even complete ONE cast of Dark Conversion or summon a single pet.

Joy_Division

Ashamray wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Id be fine if the immunetime was 3s, same as the cooldown to use the skill again, but 7s is a joke, for any of the cast time skills/spells, but with dark deal its ridiculous.

If you have 60%+ health when you gain the immunity and you have resources to cast dark deal (as a stamsorc) 3-4 times during that time you will be back to full hp and full stam within that time....the kicker is...theres nothing the oponent can do about it except stand and watch as he spams deal.

LOL, what would be the point of setting the cooldown AND the immunity to 3 seconds... the Sorc would NEVER be able to complete a cast of an interrupted spell!

Channeled spells should always be interruptible. Period. End of discussion. Please stop the bad players from casting in my face.

If you can’t get a spell off, seriously L2P.

You get streak. You get major or minor expedition with lightning form/hurricane. You can withdraw and LOS. You can dodge roll. You can CC the other guy with rune cage. You can resto ult and enjoy a few seconds of god mode while you escape. There is so much counterplay that we don’t need the immunity window. Stop it!

If you are a Sorc that cant channel it is your fault alone.

it's not that simple. Because everything is interruptible, I rarely see Templar using Dark Flare or Healing Ritual. Well, Healing Ritual still will be bad but I can at least cast this dodgeable long-travel Dark Flare safely. When you casting, you vulnurable, and it's not *my* fault. Should I only strike from rocks and walls like now? I actually don't like such a niche skills.

You know I play a Templar. Do you think we should be able to Jesus Beam in people's faces when the one big counterplay we screamed was available in the hundreds of "RD OP" threads is no longer there?

I think ZoS went the wrong way here. They are trying to make Channeled skills viable not by making the spells good or desirable to cast, rather by removing essential counterplay to them.

@Joy_Division

Well. I agree, that's why situation doesn't have simple solution. I do like channels have its power (undodgeable) and weakness (interruptible). I'd put Radiant Destruction in the "revive ally' category, so you can bash it any time.
But I hate cast time spells in this game. Why do they exist in the most fluid MMO? Why here, where bash is simple, cheap and popular? Maybe we should get rid of all cast times and reduce overall efectivness for DFlare, DDeal, etc? Or make a new proc mechanic (ZOS likes proc) that gives us a chance to cast all these spells instantly? It will look like a homogeniization though.
I really don't know, but this chosen direction seems wrong to me too.

I think you're right in that there is no easy solution.

The idea of having channeled/interruptable attacks is in theory a good one. It makes for more interesting combat. Certainly so on the PvE end, and adds some depth to player Vs. player combat.

I think there is a failure in communication though between the player base and ZoS. I often see on these forums that "channels are worthless because they will get bashed by any competent player" because people seem to think that tl;dr one sentence snazzy comments constitutes effective analysis and communication. But that's not true. Radiant destruction has always been bashable and when its damage scaled correctly, was always worth slotting and killed competent players.

The problems is most of the channeled abilities in this game simply aren't efficient or effective enough for the costs and risks. Blood Altar, Siphon Spirit, Healing Ritual, Snipe, the old Agony, Inevitable Detonation, even Dark Fare, etc., weren't used not because players would bash them, rather there are better skills to use. But since ZoS thinks we don't use these spells because enemy players will interrupt us, we now get this dubious mechanic where a few abilities which were good despite the risks of channeling (dark deal, RD) now potentially have no counterplay while things like Blood Altar, Snipe, etc., still aren't very good.

olsborg

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

Derra

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

olsborg

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game? Are stamsorcs rly gonna be alowed in a position where they dont need any other sustain to their build then DD.

BohnT

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Also good luck with even 1 interrupt next patch.
There are 2 conditions when fighting in pvp
Stunned and CC immune.

There has to be a new category that is interrupteable and uninterruptable which is completely separated from CC immunity.
Make uninterruptable last 5 seconds after your cooldown on the ability ends after you've been interrupted.
And when you finish one cast of a channel that can be interrupted while being uninterruptable, you become interrupteable again

Derra

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game? Are stamsorcs rly gonna be alowed in a position where they dont need any other sustain to their build then DD.

Same can be said about stamina heavyattacks vs any player not utilizing 1h + shield.

It´s basically impossible to prevent resource gain from that and they can just heavychannel in your face - which ironically also gets buffed next patch.

I fail to see the difference in that case (unless you play 1h shield with a lot of sturdy). Atleast the stamsorc isn´t dealing dmg to you when they darkdeal.

BohnT

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game? Are stamsorcs rly gonna be alowed in a position where they dont need any other sustain to their build then DD.

Same can be said about stamina heavyattacks vs any player not utilizing 1h + shield.

It´s basically impossible to prevent resource gain from that and they can just heavychannel in your face - which ironically also gets buffed next patch.

I fail to see the difference in that case (unless you play 1h shield with a lot of sturdy). Atleast the stamsorc isn´t dealing dmg to you when they darkdeal.

With the small difference that a heavy attack won't heal you afterwards and takes almost 2x the time for 1/2 of resource gain.

I agree that heavy attacks should be interrupteable again but only if you get the resources no matter if your enemy is blocking or not.

How about changing DD into a resource gain over time to prevent it from being abused to get way too much resources?

olsborg

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game? Are stamsorcs rly gonna be alowed in a position where they dont need any other sustain to their build then DD.

Same can be said about stamina heavyattacks vs any player not utilizing 1h + shield.

It´s basically impossible to prevent resource gain from that and they can just heavychannel in your face - which ironically also gets buffed next patch.

I fail to see the difference in that case (unless you play 1h shield with a lot of sturdy). Atleast the stamsorc isn´t dealing dmg to you when they darkdeal.

I recently fought a relatively high dmg heavy armor build that relied on heavy atks for his main sustain, I ended up blocking or dodging most of his heavy atks effectively breaking his sustain, ofc this cost me quite abit of stamina aswell, but I could manage it. Atleast that has a counter. Uninterruptable channels wont next patch, and this promoted more stupid pvp imo. Or shall I say pvp for the stupids.

olsborg

My main point in the interrupt-changes on pts. Is that people wont have to make rounded builds because one mechanic (dark deal mainly) looses its counters.
So stamsorc builds on live atm who speccs solely for dmg and relies on DD has a counter, bash, if you know how to counter it you will effectively punish them hard...for having a weakness to their build. On pts that weakness is changed into one of their strengths. Balanced?

Chilly-McFreeze

How many seconds do you need to kill someone in front of you that doesn't fight back and does nothing but using a 4k heal every 1.4 seconds?

olsborg

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How many seconds do you need to kill someone in front of you that doesn't fight back and does nothing but using a 4k heal every 1.4 seconds?

With heavy armor, vigor and rally and heals from crit(hurricane and dots) ticking away while getting 4k ticks of heal from DD? you try it

BohnT

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How many seconds do you need to kill someone in front of you that doesn't fight back and does nothing but using a 4k heal every 1.4 seconds?

Thankfully vigor, rally, crit surge+ hurricane give you healing even while doing other things

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Something a little funny, I can already see quite alot of rerolls to stamsorc on PCEU.

God forbid the class becomes actually good again

I think you can contribute just as much to stamsorcs bein top pve dps currently and the changes to heavyattacks/off balance being a massive buff for playstyles not utilizing 1h shield that are not nightblades.

Whats not so funny is they are currently all out dmg builds that rely on dark deal, I bash 9 out of 10 deal that they atempt now, and they die, but next patch when the counter is removed it will be 1 out of 10 deals that I can bash. Is this rly good for the game? Are stamsorcs rly gonna be alowed in a position where they dont need any other sustain to their build then DD.

Same can be said about stamina heavyattacks vs any player not utilizing 1h + shield.

It´s basically impossible to prevent resource gain from that and they can just heavychannel in your face - which ironically also gets buffed next patch.

I fail to see the difference in that case (unless you play 1h shield with a lot of sturdy). Atleast the stamsorc isn´t dealing dmg to you when they darkdeal.

With the small difference that a heavy attack won't heal you afterwards and takes almost 2x the time for 1/2 of resource gain.

I agree that heavy attacks should be interrupteable again but only if you get the resources no matter if your enemy is blocking or not.

How about changing DD into a resource gain over time to prevent it from being abused to get way too much resources?

WAT?

Seriously check up on stamina heavyattacks.
DW 1.6s
1h shield 1.6s
2h 1.8
bow 1.8
Dark deal 1.4s (1.2s cast + 0.2s casttime delay where you can do zero)

Stam heavyattacks don´t heal you - but they have the advantage off doing negative healing to your enemy. Pressure is not to be underestimated.

Also i have to check up on how much stam heavyattacks actually restore on an off balanced target.
Add to that possibility of buffing by CP and heavyarmor. I don´t think it´s that far off.

Edited: see later post

Chilly-McFreeze

*cough* defile *cough*

Why don't you throw 7th legion and a pocket healer in the mix?
But really guys, heavy armor and rally + surge? Thought these times are gone.

DDuke

BohnT wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How many seconds do you need to kill someone in front of you that doesn't fight back and does nothing but using a 4k heal every 1.4 seconds?

Thankfully vigor, rally, crit surge+ hurricane give you healing even while doing other things

That's a lot of healing skills you have to slot though.


I've got mixed feelings about Dark Conversion on stam (bow) sorc (having tested it on PTS). While the sustain portion is awesome and lets me pretty much spam BoL, the heal part is kinda lackluster at only 4k/cast.

I was looking for a Rally substitute (with the caveat of it having a cast time, but providing sustain), didn't really find one


Dunno if that says more about Rally being crazy strong, or Dark Conversion being weak'ish in comparison.

Derra

olsborg wrote: »

My main point in the interrupt-changes on pts. Is that people wont have to make rounded builds because one mechanic (dark deal mainly) looses its counters.
So stamsorc builds on live atm who speccs solely for dmg and relies on DD has a counter, bash, if you know how to counter it you will effectively punish them hard...for having a weakness to their build. On pts that weakness is changed into one of their strengths. Balanced?

Where are the counters to heavyattacks for stam, rune focus, betty netch, battleroar, siphoning attacks?

Just a hint: A nb spamming lightattacks with siphoning heals for more hps than a sorc spamming dark deal. Just some food for thought.

If at all dark deal should be changed to return hp + resources over 4s to prevent abusive spamming (not that this is imo problematic as it does not kill you - but ppl are gonna whine i guess).

BohnT

DDuke wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How many seconds do you need to kill someone in front of you that doesn't fight back and does nothing but using a 4k heal every 1.4 seconds?

Thankfully vigor, rally, crit surge+ hurricane give you healing even while doing other things

That's a lot of healing skills you have to slot though.


I've got mixed feelings about Dark Conversion on stam (bow) sorc (having tested it on PTS). While the sustain portion is awesome and lets me pretty much spam BoL, the heal part is kinda lackluster at only 4k/cast.

I was looking for a Rally substitute (with the caveat of it having a cast time, but providing sustain), didn't really find one


Dunno if that says more about Rally being crazy strong, or Dark Conversion being weak'ish in comparison.

Well no problem with a 3rd bar for no opportunity cost
Rally is the stamina equivalent of healing ward, a class that has nothing like it to offer has to rely on it.

Derra

Just a question @bohnT @olsborg
Have you both logged onto the pts and dueled sorcs there to determine if this is really a change worth debating about?

Chilly-McFreeze

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

My main point in the interrupt-changes on pts. Is that people wont have to make rounded builds because one mechanic (dark deal mainly) looses its counters.
So stamsorc builds on live atm who speccs solely for dmg and relies on DD has a counter, bash, if you know how to counter it you will effectively punish them hard...for having a weakness to their build. On pts that weakness is changed into one of their strengths. Balanced?

Where are the counters to heavyattacks for stam, rune focus, betty netch, battleroar, siphoning attacks?

Just a hint: A nb spamming lightattacks with siphoning heals for more hps than a sorc spamming dark deal. Just some food for thought.

If at all dark deal should be changed to return hp + resources over 4s to prevent abusive spamming (not that this is imo problematic as it does not kill you - but ppl are gonna whine i guess).

A 1k HoT for 4s with a 1.4s channel time? Even with the resource return this sounds like something I'd think twice about even slotting. I've got too much class skills on my stam sorc anyway.

BohnT

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

My main point in the interrupt-changes on pts. Is that people wont have to make rounded builds because one mechanic (dark deal mainly) looses its counters.
So stamsorc builds on live atm who speccs solely for dmg and relies on DD has a counter, bash, if you know how to counter it you will effectively punish them hard...for having a weakness to their build. On pts that weakness is changed into one of their strengths. Balanced?

Where are the counters to heavyattacks for stam, rune focus, betty netch, battleroar, siphoning attacks?

Just a hint: A nb spamming lightattacks with siphoning heals for more hps than a sorc spamming dark deal. Just some food for thought.

If at all dark deal should be changed to return hp + resources over 4s to prevent abusive spamming (not that this is imo problematic as it does not kill you - but ppl are gonna whine i guess).

4s would mean 1.8k potential regen.
Resource regain over 10-13 seconds would be fine. It would be unfair if all other classes have low regen consistent regen while one class can get much better burst regen with the same amount of counterplay

Derra

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

My main point in the interrupt-changes on pts. Is that people wont have to make rounded builds because one mechanic (dark deal mainly) looses its counters.
So stamsorc builds on live atm who speccs solely for dmg and relies on DD has a counter, bash, if you know how to counter it you will effectively punish them hard...for having a weakness to their build. On pts that weakness is changed into one of their strengths. Balanced?

Where are the counters to heavyattacks for stam, rune focus, betty netch, battleroar, siphoning attacks?

Just a hint: A nb spamming lightattacks with siphoning heals for more hps than a sorc spamming dark deal. Just some food for thought.

If at all dark deal should be changed to return hp + resources over 4s to prevent abusive spamming (not that this is imo problematic as it does not kill you - but ppl are gonna whine i guess).

A 1k HoT for 4s with a 1.4s channel time? Even with the resource return this sounds like something I'd think twice about even slotting. I've got too much class skills on my stam sorc anyway.

Tbh you´re right. Only resources over time i guess not the heal.
But even that is highly debateable imo as from actually testing on pts - i don´t perceive this change as particularly OP.

BohnT

Derra wrote: »

Just a question @bohnT @olsborg
Have you both logged onto the pts and dueled sorcs there to determine if this is really a change worth debating about?

Yes i dueled as a sorc (stam and mag) and against sorcs (stam and mag) on PTS, lost and won due to lag but the tendency was that when i removed DD from my bars i felt how much of a buff the new changes are

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Just a question @bohnT @olsborg
Have you both logged onto the pts and dueled sorcs there to determine if this is really a change worth debating about?

Yes i dueled as a sorc (stam and mag) and against sorcs (stam and mag) on PTS, lost and won due to lag but the tendency was that when i removed DD from my bars i felt how much of a buff the new changes are

I can only speak for magsorc and i have to say - it feels like a buff in duels.
But its not that the class does not need sth at the moment. Magsorc without pets is in a terrible spot.