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Dark Deal and update 17
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
On magica vs stamina: In well coordinated small group fights magica has the absolute advantage because all good smallgrp support sets are magica based. spellpowercure + transmutation + meritorious + sanctuary and you´re good.
There is an argument to be made for powerful assault to be made + stamina can bring constant reverb which in my opinion still outperforms warden aoe healdebuff but loosing magsorc execute for that is debateable.Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 12:38PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.
Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.
You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.
Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.
This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...
What's your server and platform ?
Look at this guys
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.
PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?
You can ignore Aedaryl he loses with a pet sorc in 1v1 and says that stamdk is meta
I haven't seen you ever in BGs. I don't play them anymore as they are crowded with cancer builds. Which is the optimal group constellation in your opinion?
1h&S/2h : Stam warden, Stam DK, Stam NB and 1&S/? magplar.
The burst of stamden, the extra tankiness of DK, the Defile and fear of NB, while all being tanky and supported by a healtankplar with purifying light is for me the best set up possible.
I really think nothing can survive this combo.
Also, you seems to be very stupid to judge a player on a fight in an arena duel. There is so much things that can make someone lost, like a food drop, no potions left, lag, non duel set up agaisnt duel set up, cp/gear/skills changed to counter you, ...
I don't think you had all these things everytime i killed you in open world with my open world build that never changes.
Your group will be gone in no time. That stamnb dies to 4 curses and there will be nothing the Magplar can do. Stamdk aswell. I'd bring any class over stamdk into bgs. Stamwarden might survive longer but not by much and the Magplar can't do anything on his own.
If you ever killed me in openworld, you need to know I'm playing a 100% openworld build, without elemental drain, thunder wall. With tons of sustain, and 1 shield only.
Magsorc isn't the best combo, simply because everyone and it's mother is playing 1&S stam build or mag DK/templar.
If magsorc were the best at smallscales, we will see them everywhere.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.
Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.
You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.
Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.
This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...
What's your server and platform ?
Look at this guys@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.
PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?
I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.
What do you think is the best battleground compo ?
In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.
I agree that the setup you advise is great for fighting etc but in Death math the sorcs will get every KB of the other teams with wrath. In domination the sorcs are faster to flip flags and they can support each other faster then the other classes and win more fights as they can outnumber players trying to capture flags alone or they spread out and avoid stacked groups.
For CTR they can nuke the relic carrier with curse etc and kill them with now counterplay.
For Chaosball the team you proposed is 100% better
How many BG games did you actually play to come to such conclusions? How many BG games including full named premades on all sides did you actually play and win? You sound like a fantasy football guy trying to explain his genius strategy to professionals without ever being on the field himself. Get your all sorc team together, shoot me a whisper and I'll make sure I find some guys to queue with and we can give your theory a reality check.
That 4 sorc team is gonna get countered by one warden alone, tbh.
I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I would be up for that match any day, pretty sure those guys wouldn't be as confident going into this as you are, though. Apart from that you seem to confirm, that you yourself know little and all your input is based on theoretical scenarios made up in your mind? That's what I take from your reply.
No i actually played lots of BGs for 2 months (1 month CP 1 non cp). And there weere 2 combinations that won almost any matches if i encountered them. Cinbri and his group and groups of 4 decent sorcs. I played Bgs with a variety of group constellations from solo to 4 man premade. Warden groups, DK groups and Templar groups were much easier to deal with than 4 proc blades of 4 magsorcs.
4 Sorcs are simply not competitive the moment they meet a team a la Cinbri. Discussion over. Feel free to not believe me, but make sure to reconfirm your wild ideas with some playtesting in BGs how they are played now or at least talk to some of the names you mentioned and simply ask them how they would rate their own chances going sorc only. Pretty sure both would correct your stance on the matter really quickly.
I recently defeated them rather easily with my 300CP friend. Was only Cinbri and his boyfriend and random reds I think.
The key seems to be attacking Vladimir, he appears very squishy.
What I want to say with that, is when you burst the DDs, then you can break them. Cinbri himself is very tanky of course, but prismatic onslaught changes that.Edited by Dracane on January 22, 2018 12:31PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
I feel the thread's IQ level just jumped up by a few %.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
Sorcs would win in Deathmatch as well as they get kills easily with wrath. And CtR can't be won atm with the stupid pickup mechanic.
That means sorcs would win in 3/5 game modes and get a draw in CtR and lose in Chaosball.
0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.
Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.
You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.
Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.
This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...
What's your server and platform ?
Look at this guys@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.
PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?
I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.
What do you think is the best battleground compo ?
In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.
I agree that the setup you advise is great for fighting etc but in Death math the sorcs will get every KB of the other teams with wrath. In domination the sorcs are faster to flip flags and they can support each other faster then the other classes and win more fights as they can outnumber players trying to capture flags alone or they spread out and avoid stacked groups.
For CTR they can nuke the relic carrier with curse etc and kill them with now counterplay.
For Chaosball the team you proposed is 100% better
How many BG games did you actually play to come to such conclusions? How many BG games including full named premades on all sides did you actually play and win? You sound like a fantasy football guy trying to explain his genius strategy to professionals without ever being on the field himself. Get your all sorc team together, shoot me a whisper and I'll make sure I find some guys to queue with and we can give your theory a reality check.
That 4 sorc team is gonna get countered by one warden alone, tbh.
I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I would be up for that match any day, pretty sure those guys wouldn't be as confident going into this as you are, though. Apart from that you seem to confirm, that you yourself know little and all your input is based on theoretical scenarios made up in your mind? That's what I take from your reply.
No i actually played lots of BGs for 2 months (1 month CP 1 non cp). And there weere 2 combinations that won almost any matches if i encountered them. Cinbri and his group and groups of 4 decent sorcs. I played Bgs with a variety of group constellations from solo to 4 man premade. Warden groups, DK groups and Templar groups were much easier to deal with than 4 proc blades of 4 magsorcs.
4 Sorcs are simply not competitive the moment they meet a team a la Cinbri. Discussion over. Feel free to not believe me, but make sure to reconfirm your wild ideas with some playtesting in BGs how they are played now or at least talk to some of the names you mentioned and simply ask them how they would rate their own chances going sorc only. Pretty sure both would correct your stance on the matter really quickly.
I recently defeated them rather easily with my 300CP friend. Was only Cinbri and his boyfriend and random reds I think.
The key seems to be attacking Vladimir, he appears very squishy.
What I want to say with that, is when you burst the DDs, then you can break them. Cinbri himself is very tanky of course, but prismatic onslaught changes that.
Yeah Cinbri and Vladimir are not a huge problem. Killed them several times with stamplar+ stamdk against magplar+ magdk. But as soon as they get the damage through a warden and heresya they are almost unkillable0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
Sorcs would win in Deathmatch as well as they get kills easily with wrath. And CtR can't be won atm with the stupid pickup mechanic.
That means sorcs would win in 3/5 game modes and get a draw in CtR and lose in Chaosball.
How would sorcs win in deathmatch if they die? You can´t steal kills if you´re dead when you engage.
Also mojo is literally playing with cinbris grp.
They would walk in front of random team base and camp there. Sorc team either has to engage into coordinated 4man on their terms or will never be able to score kills from random team. Done.
As targets you have: A warden with shimmering + harness. A templar with purge. A DK with wings. A NB with cloak or a shieldstacking sorc. Uh oh.
Edit: Sorc would also loose in crazy king - the beginning favors the "slower" grp tremendously and that lead can´t be made up for.Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 12:46PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
Sorcs would win in Deathmatch as well as they get kills easily with wrath. And CtR can't be won atm with the stupid pickup mechanic.
That means sorcs would win in 3/5 game modes and get a draw in CtR and lose in Chaosball.
How would sorcs win in deathmatch if they die? You can´t steal kills if you´re dead when you engage.
With 4 sorcs they have at least 1 resto up at any given moment. Healing ward saves a sorc under pressure if it's used by the others and the curse/ wrath will still be on the enemy even when one sorc dies. And 4 curses with fury are enough to kill anyone that can't purge or shield up.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I wouldn´t to be perfectly honest.
Sorc grps in open world only exist not because the class is best in small groups but because sorc only synergises with itself and to some extend warden.
Magplar + Magden + magDK + X is really what i´d set up as a baseline for BGs. X being any class with a vaible execute (stam with 2h or magblade/sorc).
The only format i could see sorcs winning would be domination due to simply avoiding every fight where they do not outnumber their opponents.
Sorcs would win in Deathmatch as well as they get kills easily with wrath. And CtR can't be won atm with the stupid pickup mechanic.
That means sorcs would win in 3/5 game modes and get a draw in CtR and lose in Chaosball.
How would sorcs win in deathmatch if they die? You can´t steal kills if you´re dead when you engage.
With 4 sorcs they have at least 1 resto up at any given moment. Healing ward saves a sorc under pressure if it's used by the others and the curse/ wrath will still be on the enemy even when one sorc dies. And 4 curses with fury are enough to kill anyone that can't purge or shield up.
Your best bet would be a magDK with wings slotted as a target for that.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.
Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.
You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.
Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.
This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...
What's your server and platform ?
Look at this guys@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.
PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?
I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.
What do you think is the best battleground compo ?
In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.
I agree that the setup you advise is great for fighting etc but in Death math the sorcs will get every KB of the other teams with wrath. In domination the sorcs are faster to flip flags and they can support each other faster then the other classes and win more fights as they can outnumber players trying to capture flags alone or they spread out and avoid stacked groups.
For CTR they can nuke the relic carrier with curse etc and kill them with now counterplay.
For Chaosball the team you proposed is 100% better
How many BG games did you actually play to come to such conclusions? How many BG games including full named premades on all sides did you actually play and win? You sound like a fantasy football guy trying to explain his genius strategy to professionals without ever being on the field himself. Get your all sorc team together, shoot me a whisper and I'll make sure I find some guys to queue with and we can give your theory a reality check.
That 4 sorc team is gonna get countered by one warden alone, tbh.
I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I would be up for that match any day, pretty sure those guys wouldn't be as confident going into this as you are, though. Apart from that you seem to confirm, that you yourself know little and all your input is based on theoretical scenarios made up in your mind? That's what I take from your reply.
No i actually played lots of BGs for 2 months (1 month CP 1 non cp). And there weere 2 combinations that won almost any matches if i encountered them. Cinbri and his group and groups of 4 decent sorcs. I played Bgs with a variety of group constellations from solo to 4 man premade. Warden groups, DK groups and Templar groups were much easier to deal with than 4 proc blades of 4 magsorcs.
4 Sorcs are simply not competitive the moment they meet a team a la Cinbri. Discussion over. Feel free to not believe me, but make sure to reconfirm your wild ideas with some playtesting in BGs how they are played now or at least talk to some of the names you mentioned and simply ask them how they would rate their own chances going sorc only. Pretty sure both would correct your stance on the matter really quickly.
I recently defeated them rather easily with my 300CP friend. Was only Cinbri and his boyfriend and random reds I think.
The key seems to be attacking Vladimir, he appears very squishy.
What I want to say with that, is when you burst the DDs, then you can break them. Cinbri himself is very tanky of course, but prismatic onslaught changes that.
Anyone can be beaten, thats the beauty of it. Especially in duo. But I think it's pretty safe to say, that the particular grp mentioned is dominant in BGs in general and probably the most dominant by quite a margin when going full pre with 4 players. The best mag sorc heavy teams you meet nowadays is aether & friends, but they don't look very hot when facing more balanced setups of similar player skill. Magsorcs are too limited in their approach to fight to only rely on them for a winning setup.
Neither Cinbri nor Vlad are vamp, afaik for quite a while now. Did I miss some hidden functionality with the enchant?Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 22, 2018 12:50PMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I want to be able to shut down the other classes ressource return mechanics with a simple bash, too. Dark deal, right now, is almost unusable infight vs decent opponents, stamsorc speaking. So, basically, I am not allowed to have class based ressource return infight, that's a pretty big disadvantage compared to even, lets say a stam dk.
Thats a good point, and im not opposed at all to sorcs getting some immunity to interrupt....but 7 seconds is way too long imo.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 12:56PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
But why has it to be 7 seconds of no counterplay? 1 cast of DD makes up enough resources to keep fighting.
So 1 cast of the Skill and then you can be bashed again. The 3 seconds skill lock can be put on the 7 second cooldown. So you can cast 1 DD but afterwards you can be bashed again with no 3 sec cooldown until the 7 second cd runs out0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.
Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.
You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.
Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.
This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...
What's your server and platform ?
Look at this guys@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.
PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?
I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.
What do you think is the best battleground compo ?
In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.
I agree that the setup you advise is great for fighting etc but in Death math the sorcs will get every KB of the other teams with wrath. In domination the sorcs are faster to flip flags and they can support each other faster then the other classes and win more fights as they can outnumber players trying to capture flags alone or they spread out and avoid stacked groups.
For CTR they can nuke the relic carrier with curse etc and kill them with now counterplay.
For Chaosball the team you proposed is 100% better
How many BG games did you actually play to come to such conclusions? How many BG games including full named premades on all sides did you actually play and win? You sound like a fantasy football guy trying to explain his genius strategy to professionals without ever being on the field himself. Get your all sorc team together, shoot me a whisper and I'll make sure I find some guys to queue with and we can give your theory a reality check.
That 4 sorc team is gonna get countered by one warden alone, tbh.
I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them
I would be up for that match any day, pretty sure those guys wouldn't be as confident going into this as you are, though. Apart from that you seem to confirm, that you yourself know little and all your input is based on theoretical scenarios made up in your mind? That's what I take from your reply.
No i actually played lots of BGs for 2 months (1 month CP 1 non cp). And there weere 2 combinations that won almost any matches if i encountered them. Cinbri and his group and groups of 4 decent sorcs. I played Bgs with a variety of group constellations from solo to 4 man premade. Warden groups, DK groups and Templar groups were much easier to deal with than 4 proc blades of 4 magsorcs.
4 Sorcs are simply not competitive the moment they meet a team a la Cinbri. Discussion over. Feel free to not believe me, but make sure to reconfirm your wild ideas with some playtesting in BGs how they are played now or at least talk to some of the names you mentioned and simply ask them how they would rate their own chances going sorc only. Pretty sure both would correct your stance on the matter really quickly.
I recently defeated them rather easily with my 300CP friend. Was only Cinbri and his boyfriend and random reds I think.
The key seems to be attacking Vladimir, he appears very squishy.
What I want to say with that, is when you burst the DDs, then you can break them. Cinbri himself is very tanky of course, but prismatic onslaught changes that.
Anyone can be beaten, thats the beauty of it. Especially in duo. But I think it's pretty safe to say, that the particular grp mentioned is dominant in BGs in general and probably the most dominant by quite a margin when going full pre with 4 players. The best mag sorc heavy teams you meet nowadays is aether & friends, but they don't look very hot when facing more balanced setups of similar player skill. Magsorcs are too limited in their approach to fight to only rely on them for a winning setup.
Neither Cinbri nor Vlad are vamp, afaik for quite a while now. Did I miss some hidden functionality with the enchant?
I was so sure Cinbir is a vampire. Maybe he respecced ?
Anyway, it's a nice illusion to tell myself
I perform sooo much better vs Templars since I use prismatics, because most seem to be vampires. Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
If your opponent risks darkdealing back to back (without stacking 2+ shields) they created a wonderful burstwindow for you with their cc immunity running out right in the middle of that.
Don´t get me wrong darkdeal is a good spell and annoying to fight if you can´t rupt it. I do it regularly myself. Yet i don´t think it´s OP fighting it without the possibility to interrupt it in the first place - because it functions in the same way (but worse) as shields do. It keeps the sorc on the defensive.Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 1:07PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I want to be able to shut down the other classes ressource return mechanics with a simple bash, too. Dark deal, right now, is almost unusable infight vs decent opponents, stamsorc speaking. So, basically, I am not allowed to have class based ressource return infight, that's a pretty big disadvantage compared to even, lets say a stam dk.
Thats a good point, and im not opposed at all to sorcs getting some immunity to interrupt....but 7 seconds is way too long imo.
I agree to some extend, but on the other hand I really struggle to imagine infight situations where I would spend 7 seconds channeling. The game is so fast paced, the trade-off for being semi stuck in a channel for such a long time is so significant on mutliple angles (mobility, ability to fight back, support for grp members, etc.) that you are probably worse off most of the time, even if your stamina bar is full again. I mean after those 7 second you still havent refreshed your hots & hurricane, you still havent fought back, you are already vulnerable to CC again, and so on.
I, as a stamsorc, cannot picture me channeling dark deal any more than I do now when considering how fights play out most of the time. Lets say we got out first dark deal interrupted, we probably were starved before, under pressure. At this point after breaking free from interrupt stun we 100% need to block or dodge cast vigor first, maybe rally too (keep in mind, we have very little stam in the first place - thats why we attempted the first dark deal) and a streak to create distance to stay alive. Thats 2-3s gone from the scary 7s, depending on wpn swaps, lags and so on. Not a single point of stamina gained back so far, quite the opposite we are forced to recover from attempting to use our recovery skill.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
The thing you are forgetting is that in interrupting them, you have stunned them and set them off balance
You get a 70% damage buff to your next heavy, and it grants double resources.
You get this heavy off, because said sorc is stunned and has to break free.
Do you know how long an unshielded mag Sorcs life span is?Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
Which is a simply logical fallacy as that "gained" resources are instantly burned for reapplying shields + dealing no counterpressure.
From literally using this: Your netgain from casting shields + darkdeal twice instead of counterattacking is about ~5k magica for burning 4k stamina .
Meanwhile a nb just spams lightattacks with siphoning attacks and gets 163 resource/s + ~1800 hps. If that´s not eso easymode idk.Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 1:20PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
Which is a simply logical fallacy as that "gained" resources are instantly burned for reapplying shields + dealing no counterpressure.
From literally using this: Your netgain from casting shields + darkdeal twice instead of counterattacking is about ~5k magica for burning 4k stamina .
Meanwhile a nb just spams lightattacks with siphoning attacks and gets 180 resources + ~1800 hps. If that´s not eso easymode idk.
You'll see the light when scrubby sorcs starts just shielding and dark dealing behind their shields and theres nothing you can do:) #cantwaitforthepatchtocome
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
Which is a simply logical fallacy as that "gained" resources are instantly burned for reapplying shields + dealing no counterpressure.
From literally using this: Your netgain from casting shields + darkdeal twice instead of counterattacking is about ~5k magica for burning 4k stamina .
Meanwhile a nb just spams lightattacks with siphoning attacks and gets 180 resources + ~1800 hps. If that´s not eso easymode idk.
You'll see the light when scrubby sorcs starts just shielding and dark dealing behind their shields and theres nothing you can do:) #cantwaitforthepatchtocome
As i´ve said multiple times by now.
That´s what is literally happening to me almost daily already bc i play ranged without crushing shock.
Be thankful you don´t play magica so you give them free resources just for shielding with harness stacking.
It´s not as much of an issues as ppl are making it out to be.
Your argument is the same as me saying a scrubby nb with eternal hunt starting to cloak/roll around a tree so they don´t die. It´s an unjustified feeling of supriority because of the notion "what I use is fine and what an enemy uses is cheese and makes him a scrub".
But that´s not how it works.
Maybe if an enemy manages to not die to you they´re not as scrubby as you´d wish them to be (or their build counters yours). If i´d get this angry every time i encounter someone i can not kill on sorc i´d probably have a heartattack by now.Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 1:32PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
Which is a simply logical fallacy as that "gained" resources are instantly burned for reapplying shields + dealing no counterpressure.
From literally using this: Your netgain from casting shields + darkdeal twice instead of counterattacking is about ~5k magica for burning 4k stamina .
Meanwhile a nb just spams lightattacks with siphoning attacks and gets 180 resources + ~1800 hps. If that´s not eso easymode idk.
You'll see the light when scrubby sorcs starts just shielding and dark dealing behind their shields and theres nothing you can do:) #cantwaitforthepatchtocome
As i´ve said multiple times by now.
That´s what is literally happening to me almost daily already bc i play ranged without crushing shock.
Be thankful you don´t play magica so you give them free resources just for shielding with harness stacking.
It´s not as much of an issues as ppl are making it out to be.
Your argument is the same as me saying a scrubby nb with eternal hunt starting to cloak/roll around a tree so they don´t die. It´s an unjustified feeling of supriority because of the notion "what I use is fine and what an enemy uses is cheese and makes him a scrub".
But that´s not how it works.
Maybe if an enemy manages to not die to you they´re not as scrubby as you´d wish them to be (or their build counters yours). If i´d get this angry every time i encounter someone i can not kill on sorc i´d probably have a heartattack by now.
Its no anger here. Its a legitimate concern of the simplification of gameplay via removing counters to a certain playstyle or game mechanic.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.
You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.
That´s no point reinforcing your argument.
Ive also played sorc to general, and made quite enough use of dark exchange to have an opinion based on facts and experience. Im all for sorcs having a different way to regen resources, but taking away most of the counterplay to it is...not the right way to go imo.
When you played sorc to general is not even remotely close to how the class and the game plays nowadays.
The game is simply not the same anymore. Nor is sorc and darkdeal has been buffed and nerfed after you stopped playing sorc regularly.
I´m sorry but no you´re voicing an uninformed opinion based on outdated firsthand information and second hand experience from playing against sorc on your NB.
Taking away the counterplay to regaining resources is quite simply putting sorc on equal footing with all other classes resource mechanics. Nothing else.
There is no counterplay to every other classes resource return mechanic in the first place.
There is no realistic counterplay to stamina heavyattacks bc they channel 40% faster than magica ones (except if you can permablock).
Regardless @Derra , to quote myself further up.
(10s if you drink an immo pot)7 seconds is way too long
How many darkdeals can you realisticly cast against a competent opponent in that timeframe?
2 at best bc you have to:
1s breakfree
2s shield
3.4s darkdeal
4.4s shield
5.8s darkdeal
6.8s shield
Congratulations now the sorc wasted 100% of it´s cc immunity on casting darkdeal + shields and did not counterpressure you at all.
This is under the assumption that you can break or get an opponents shield low enough that they have to recast after 1 darkdeal.
If your build is incapable of doing that then you´re running too little dmg in the first place.
While youre doing that, the sorc will have regained ~8k or so of his resource through DD, healed and taken very little if any dmg at all, while you have been spending more precious resources attacking him. If this isnt ESO-easymode then I dunno. Competent sorcs nowdays can quite often get a dark deal off here and there, wich is cool. But having them doing it freely for 7-10s while all you can do is watch (and attack) is ridiculous.
Which is a simply logical fallacy as that "gained" resources are instantly burned for reapplying shields + dealing no counterpressure.
From literally using this: Your netgain from casting shields + darkdeal twice instead of counterattacking is about ~5k magica for burning 4k stamina .
Meanwhile a nb just spams lightattacks with siphoning attacks and gets 180 resources + ~1800 hps. If that´s not eso easymode idk.
You'll see the light when scrubby sorcs starts just shielding and dark dealing behind their shields and theres nothing you can do:) #cantwaitforthepatchtocome
As i´ve said multiple times by now.
That´s what is literally happening to me almost daily already bc i play ranged without crushing shock.
Be thankful you don´t play magica so you give them free resources just for shielding with harness stacking.
It´s not as much of an issues as ppl are making it out to be.
Your argument is the same as me saying a scrubby nb with eternal hunt starting to cloak/roll around a tree so they don´t die. It´s an unjustified feeling of supriority because of the notion "what I use is fine and what an enemy uses is cheese and makes him a scrub".
But that´s not how it works.
Maybe if an enemy manages to not die to you they´re not as scrubby as you´d wish them to be (or their build counters yours). If i´d get this angry every time i encounter someone i can not kill on sorc i´d probably have a heartattack by now.
Its no anger here. Its a legitimate concern of the simplification of gameplay via removing counters to a certain playstyle or game mechanic.
It´s not legitimate when it´s only effect is homogenisation of simplicity.
It puts sorc in the same place all other classes are already in. Being able to use their classes resource mechanic in combat.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra
Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...
Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Derra
Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...
sadly there is None left for the others. As if sorc wasn't been able to use DD in fights with the already existing mechanics in the game and now we see a flat buff
0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra
Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...
sadly there is None left for the others. As if sorc wasn't been able to use DD in fights with the already existing mechanics in the game and now we see a flat buff
But that´s the point. Why should there be counterplay to sorcs resource mechanic when there is absolutely 0 to the other classes.
Sorc isn´t even remotely close to being top dog in actual combat aswell.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Derra
Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...
sadly there is None left for the others. As if sorc wasn't been able to use DD in fights with the already existing mechanics in the game and now we see a flat buff
But that´s the point. Why should there be counterplay to sorcs resource mechanic when there is absolutely 0 to the other classes.
Sorc isn´t even remotely close to being top dog in actual combat aswell.
Well for templar it's not dying. Nbs can't get resources back when you Los them.
DK have to waste ult or have an exchange rate of atleast 1:3 for stamina meaning you can LoS the dk and his resources mechanic won't work because he doesn't get any ult.
Sorc can force to use its resource mechanic and even more with the next patch. And when morrowind launched the only argument sorcs brought up why DD wasn't nerfed was because you could interrupt it guess what won't be possible with the changes.
0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra
Though everyone saying it’s about counter play almost always means his own counter play, never the one for the opponent...
sadly there is None left for the others. As if sorc wasn't been able to use DD in fights with the already existing mechanics in the game and now we see a flat buff
But that´s the point. Why should there be counterplay to sorcs resource mechanic when there is absolutely 0 to the other classes.
Sorc isn´t even remotely close to being top dog in actual combat aswell.
Well for templar it's not dying. Nbs can't get resources back when you Los them.
DK have to waste ult or have an exchange rate of atleast 1:3 for stamina meaning you can LoS the dk and his resources mechanic won't work because he doesn't get any ult.
Sorc can force to use its resource mechanic and even more with the next patch. And when morrowind launched the only argument sorcs brought up why DD wasn't nerfed was because you could interrupt it guess what won't be possible with the changes.
I´m talking about infight usage of said mechanics.
With los literally nothing changes regarding dark deal so it´s 100% irrelevant to the argument.
To the morrowind point: Yet every class uses their resource mechanic even in pve. Sorcs don´t.
If darkdeal is really that overperforming compared to other resource mechanics why is it the only one that does not get utilized in pve combat?Edited by Derra on January 22, 2018 4:36PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503