Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

Aedaryl wrote: »

What do you think is the best battleground compo ?

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.

What do you think is the best battleground compo ?

In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Regarding Dark Deal I think that it's a good change. Sorcs either have to drop shieldstack, mines or elemental drain to be able to slot DD which can be interesting (and stamsorc needs some buffs too in my opinion).

The reason why I hate fighting sorcs is that they have so much defense, it's exhausting to fight mines and shield stack (not saying that a sorc without them would be in a good spot tho).

stamsorc needs some buffs, but is this really the right buff?

If they can spam dark deal without any trouble what is the point of playing a Dk?

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Regarding Dark Deal I think that it's a good change. Sorcs either have to drop shieldstack, mines or elemental drain to be able to slot DD which can be interesting (and stamsorc needs some buffs too in my opinion).

The reason why I hate fighting sorcs is that they have so much defense, it's exhausting to fight mines and shield stack (not saying that a sorc without them would be in a good spot tho).

stamsorc needs some buffs, but is this really the right buff?

If they can spam dark deal without any trouble what is the point of playing a Dk?

There won't be much point in playing sDk even if you don't buff stamsorc


I have hopes that ZOS will give us a new weaponskill line with the next expansion (was already confirmed or leaked?) and that a good singletarget spammable will be in there.

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

You can ignore Aedaryl he loses with a pet sorc in 1v1 and says that stamdk is meta
I haven't seen you ever in BGs. I don't play them anymore as they are crowded with cancer builds. Which is the optimal group constellation in your opinion?

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

---

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

You can ignore Aedaryl he loses with a pet sorc in 1v1 and says that stamdk is meta
I haven't seen you ever in BGs. I don't play them anymore as they are crowded with cancer builds. Which is the optimal group constellation in your opinion?

1h&S/2h : Stam warden, Stam DK, Stam NB and 1&S/? magplar.

The burst of stamden, the extra tankiness of DK, the Defile and fear of NB, while all being tanky and supported by a healtankplar with purifying light is for me the best set up possible.

I really think nothing can survive this combo.

Also, you seems to be very stupid to judge a player on a fight in an arena duel. There is so much things that can make someone lost, like a food drop, no potions left, lag, non duel set up agaisnt duel set up, cp/gear/skills changed to counter you, ...

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I can't speak for exclusive Battle Ground conditions. But I agree with Aedaryl on this.
Nearly every fight I have ever encountered, the tank/tankyhealer cancer groups always won in the end. Mainly Templars.

You used to be able to beat them in CTF by virtue of Immovable/Speed pots, but the changes last patch ruined that.

I feel like every change they make, just amphizises zerging even more.
One famous example for myself is the guild "Gate to Hell" or Gate to cancer rehabilitation station as I call them.
They run around in full tank/healer balls and roll over everything with it. It's really the best recipe Tanks are the secret overlords of pvp, not so secret even.

Tell you what, a couple of Masters Axes and Blood Drinker tends to do a pretty good job of ruining their day.

Though you still get the odd Stam DK that turtles for 5 minutes and then one shots you with a dizzying + Leap

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

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Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.

PC EU. Dude, I play BGs only since its introduction. I have never seen you there or on the leaderboards (which would indicate regular playtime in BGs). So, you don't play BGs but want to be an expert on compositions? Where does your expert knowledge come from?

I made a two mouths break, and I don't play battlegrounds anymore, my Knowledge come from what I experienced in BG and in PvP, where tanks groups are the best smallscale PvP set-up. Even more in battlegroung when everything is about holding points/balls or win on Kills/deaths ratio.

What do you think is the best battleground compo ?

In my experience, four magicka classes synergize best. Best setup you can play is one magplar, one mag warden, one mag dk + either one magblade or magsorc (for roaming and dmg/execute). Most essential is the magplar though for purge and ressources.

I agree that the setup you advise is great for fighting etc but in Death math the sorcs will get every KB of the other teams with wrath. In domination the sorcs are faster to flip flags and they can support each other faster then the other classes and win more fights as they can outnumber players trying to capture flags alone or they spread out and avoid stacked groups.
For CTR they can nuke the relic carrier with curse etc and kill them with now counterplay.

For Chaosball the team you proposed is 100% better

How many BG games did you actually play to come to such conclusions? How many BG games including full named premades on all sides did you actually play and win? You sound like a fantasy football guy trying to explain his genius strategy to professionals without ever being on the field himself. Get your all sorc team together, shoot me a whisper and I'll make sure I find some guys to queue with and we can give your theory a reality check.

That 4 sorc team is gonna get countered by one warden alone, tbh.

I'm too bad of a sorc to ever say that my gameplay represent the possible performance of the class in any way.
Hit up Derra, Metzger, Malcom, Hexiss etc for such a fight.
If you get them to play together i put all my money on them

BohnT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I can't speak for exclusive Battle Ground conditions. But I agree with Aedaryl on this.
Nearly every fight I have ever encountered, the tank/tankyhealer cancer groups always won in the end. Mainly Templars.

You used to be able to beat them in CTF by virtue of Immovable/Speed pots, but the changes last patch ruined that.

I feel like every change they make, just amphizises zerging even more.
One famous example for myself is the guild "Gate to Hell" or Gate to cancer rehabilitation station as I call them.
They run around in full tank/healer balls and roll over everything with it. It's really the best recipe Tanks are the secret overlords of pvp, not so secret even.

Tell you what, a couple of Masters Axes and Blood Drinker tends to do a pretty good job of ruining their day.

Though you still get the odd Stam DK that turtles for 5 minutes and then one shots you with a dizzying + Leap

I do not play stamina builds
Why is this setup good ? Templars purge everything with purifying ritual.. This doesn't seem very effective. I avoid putting anything on them, because I waste more magicka or stamina in that scenario, applying all my stuff then them with 1 button

Against a blob zerg like Saras it won't do anything.
For small groups all classes except for templar can only use purge every 20 seconds. With the bleeds they just die in 2k ticks with 70% defiles on them

Dracane wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I can't speak for exclusive Battle Ground conditions. But I agree with Aedaryl on this.
Nearly every fight I have ever encountered, the tank/tankyhealer cancer groups always won in the end. Mainly Templars.

You used to be able to beat them in CTF by virtue of Immovable/Speed pots, but the changes last patch ruined that.

I feel like every change they make, just amphizises zerging even more.
One famous example for myself is the guild "Gate to Hell" or Gate to cancer rehabilitation station as I call them.
They run around in full tank/healer balls and roll over everything with it. It's really the best recipe Tanks are the secret overlords of pvp, not so secret even.

Tell you what, a couple of Masters Axes and Blood Drinker tends to do a pretty good job of ruining their day.

Though you still get the odd Stam DK that turtles for 5 minutes and then one shots you with a dizzying + Leap

I do not play stamina builds
Why is this setup good ? Templars purge everything with purifying ritual.. This doesn't seem very effective. I avoid putting anything on them, because I waste more magicka or stamina in that scenario, applying all my stuff then them with 1 button

Against a blob zerg like Saras it won't do anything.
For small groups all classes except for templar can only use purge every 20 seconds. With the bleeds they just die in 2k ticks with 70% defiles on them

Ah, so he was talking about applying them to the non-Templars.
Can magicka do anything similar ? The only convenient source of Defile for me is disease enchants and Argonians are immune to them, making it too unreliable

BohnT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I can't speak for exclusive Battle Ground conditions. But I agree with Aedaryl on this.
Nearly every fight I have ever encountered, the tank/tankyhealer cancer groups always won in the end. Mainly Templars.

You used to be able to beat them in CTF by virtue of Immovable/Speed pots, but the changes last patch ruined that.

I feel like every change they make, just amphizises zerging even more.
One famous example for myself is the guild "Gate to Hell" or Gate to cancer rehabilitation station as I call them.
They run around in full tank/healer balls and roll over everything with it. It's really the best recipe Tanks are the secret overlords of pvp, not so secret even.

Tell you what, a couple of Masters Axes and Blood Drinker tends to do a pretty good job of ruining their day.

Though you still get the odd Stam DK that turtles for 5 minutes and then one shots you with a dizzying + Leap

I do not play stamina builds
Why is this setup good ? Templars purge everything with purifying ritual.. This doesn't seem very effective. I avoid putting anything on them, because I waste more magicka or stamina in that scenario, applying all my stuff then them with 1 button

Against a blob zerg like Saras it won't do anything.
For small groups all classes except for templar can only use purge every 20 seconds. With the bleeds they just die in 2k ticks with 70% defiles on them

Ah, so he was talking about applying them to the non-Templars.
Can magicka do anything similar ? The only convenient source of Defile for me is disease enchants and Argonians are immune to them, making it too unreliable

Magbuilds don't have bleeds but i always had an easier time to survive against tank groups with mag chars as they can't kill me due to healing ward/ shields or burst heal.
To kill them i guess focusing one of them with multiple allies is the best way to kill them.
Bleeds aren't a secured kill in any way but they are a great way to pressure them.