Dark Deal and update 17

BohnT · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The big take away for me is:

Dark Deal etc is not an issue (as in, no it's not OP)
Sorcs are not OP
Sorcs are not going to be OP.

Simple really

Tell us how this won't be a Problem?
the same way birds and shalks are fine because you can LoS them, (which you can't because shalks ignore walls, heights etc and birds are delayed enough to hit you atleast 2 times behind walls)
or the same way destro was fine when they buffed it, fine like stamwarden, fine like proc sets and poisons?

Dark deal does not kill you. All the examples you made actually kill enemies. Dark deal is a defensive actions.
It just replaces other defensive cooldowns.

I can maybe see it being problematic on stamsorc but then - not really bc stamsorc as a whole isn´t that good at the moment.
On magsorc? Whats the difference for you? They´re getting stuck casting defensive cds wether its darkdeal or shields and they won´t run out of magica doing either.

Dark Deal will kill me aswell, there won't be DD in my death recap but the sorc won't die and can reset the fight as long as he wants, for zerglings this means the sorc will just stay alive with full resources until his zerg arrives to kill me. Against a good sorc i can either try to pressure him until I'm out of resources and then he can kill me because as you said they won't run out of resources spamming shields+ DD or i leave him and he can try to kill me until he finally succeeds.

Stamsorc is decent atm not at the level of stamwarden or stamnb but in a good enough spot to be pushed into op country with these changes

Boy i´ve got new for you.
You can´t pressure a sorc out of resources currently if you´re a magica build.

Also is your argument that dark deal will be op infight or while kiting?
On a magblade you can´t even bash enough to rupt a sorc that really wants to darkdeal (source: me i´ve tried this exact scenario in duels to test).

In kiting it won´t be any different. Infight it will just buy you more offensive time. Siphoning attacks will still be a better skill to use infight than dark deal.

I´m sorry but i´m not buying these arguments from mainly nightblade players about darkdeal becoming OP just because.
I´m playing both classes magica and stamina at the moment.
Darkdeal becoming infight vaible for sorc won´t magically make them op and for kiting nothing changes (just keep in mind infight it´ll still be the choice between ele drain and dark deal or they give up a different ability).

So you want to further the list of classes that can't beat sorcs?
I'm not thinking about my nightblades when posting here i think about how my stamplar, magdk, stamdk and magplar will face these changes.
On live a sorc can streak away and start casting DD but i have at least a chance to negate his attempts. This will work maybe 2/5 times but with these changes i can just give up fighting sorcs in open world.

I know you love these changes as a sorc main but even then you have to see how bad these changes are for the game.

And i trade streak+ DD for any resource mechanic in the game, take the 4% cost reduction of templars + repentance, have fun with battle roar or take my siphoning attacks.

olsborg · January 2018

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

Feanor · January 2018

A buff is justified because it’s so boring to play a mine camping atro turret Sorc.

I find it funny the sky is falling again. Sorcs of both varieties are certainly not a big chunk of the population, at least not on Sotha Sil EU. They could need a buff. If it has to be one of greater magnitude is another story...

Derra · January 2018

olsborg wrote: »

If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

THAT`S THE POINT. OTHER CLASSES DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT. Their resource recovery mechanics work automaticly on normal skills / passives.

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The big take away for me is:

Dark Deal etc is not an issue (as in, no it's not OP)
Sorcs are not OP
Sorcs are not going to be OP.

Simple really

Tell us how this won't be a Problem?
the same way birds and shalks are fine because you can LoS them, (which you can't because shalks ignore walls, heights etc and birds are delayed enough to hit you atleast 2 times behind walls)
or the same way destro was fine when they buffed it, fine like stamwarden, fine like proc sets and poisons?

Dark deal does not kill you. All the examples you made actually kill enemies. Dark deal is a defensive actions.
It just replaces other defensive cooldowns.

I can maybe see it being problematic on stamsorc but then - not really bc stamsorc as a whole isn´t that good at the moment.
On magsorc? Whats the difference for you? They´re getting stuck casting defensive cds wether its darkdeal or shields and they won´t run out of magica doing either.

Dark Deal will kill me aswell, there won't be DD in my death recap but the sorc won't die and can reset the fight as long as he wants, for zerglings this means the sorc will just stay alive with full resources until his zerg arrives to kill me. Against a good sorc i can either try to pressure him until I'm out of resources and then he can kill me because as you said they won't run out of resources spamming shields+ DD or i leave him and he can try to kill me until he finally succeeds.

Stamsorc is decent atm not at the level of stamwarden or stamnb but in a good enough spot to be pushed into op country with these changes

Boy i´ve got new for you.
You can´t pressure a sorc out of resources currently if you´re a magica build.

Also is your argument that dark deal will be op infight or while kiting?
On a magblade you can´t even bash enough to rupt a sorc that really wants to darkdeal (source: me i´ve tried this exact scenario in duels to test).

In kiting it won´t be any different. Infight it will just buy you more offensive time. Siphoning attacks will still be a better skill to use infight than dark deal.

I´m sorry but i´m not buying these arguments from mainly nightblade players about darkdeal becoming OP just because.
I´m playing both classes magica and stamina at the moment.
Darkdeal becoming infight vaible for sorc won´t magically make them op and for kiting nothing changes (just keep in mind infight it´ll still be the choice between ele drain and dark deal or they give up a different ability).

So you want to further the list of classes that can't beat sorcs?
I'm not thinking about my nightblades when posting here i think about how my stamplar, magdk, stamdk and magplar will face these changes.
On live a sorc can streak away and start casting DD but i have at least a chance to negate his attempts. This will work maybe 2/5 times but with these changes i can just give up fighting sorcs in open world.

I know you love these changes as a sorc main but even then you have to see how bad these changes are for the game.

And i trade streak+ DD for any resource mechanic in the game, take the 4% cost reduction of templars + repentance, have fun with battle roar or take my siphoning attacks.

You want me to make a list of the classes a (non pet) sorc can´t beat currently if they go full defensive? It´s a nonsense argument that leads nowhere.
But here you go: warden, magDK, templar, nightblade, magsorc
Oh wait...

Also streak + DD - so that´s the problem now? It´s kiting. Well you won´t ever have the chance to negate the attempts of a good sorcs streak + dd - nothing changes.

Infight i´d trade dark deal for every other classes resource mechanic - especially nightblades siphoning attacks which beats darkdeal in a combat situation hands down even after the changes to interrupts.

I don´t see how these changes are bad for the game because quite frankly said: Sorc is crap infight currently and no decent player should ever die to a non pet sorc currently in a 1v1 situation.
The only thing sorc is good at currently is forcing draws.
I don´t see how these changes are bad because currently if i want to dark deal no player can stop me from doing so. I just have to reset the fight for that (which is exactly what you critisize). The changes will enable sorc to use their resource mechanic in combat (like all other classes) without having to reset the fight.
I´m sorry to say that but i think a change that promotes actual combat instead of engage > reset rinse repeat is a good change.

If they want to change sth they should make darkdeal return resources over 4s so sorcs can only get 1 darkdeal out of a cc break (1s breakfree + 1.4s cast + 4s return = 6.4s = no second cast possible).

Derra · January 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Feanor · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Kronuxx · January 2018

I think Dark Deal on live is fine as is to be honest. I'm not sure why ZOS decided to include DD in its list of skills that gain immunity after interrupt, it makes no sense. You want to create intelligent counterplay, not simple counterplay with limited time windows. You can use DD so effectively on live, if you learn to LOS properly, take the Boundless Storm morph, especially as a medium armor build. Use shuffle to get out of snares, and with major expedition for 7s, you easily create distance between you and your opponent to use Dark Deal freely. This is smart counter play. Not the current bs that is on PTS right now. Honestly...I don't think ZOS employees ever play their game outside of public showings.

Derra · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

And yet he´s arguing to keep sorc dead in that tracks instead of improving the combat viability of a core spell to sorcs sustain - ironic isn´t it?

Kronuxx wrote: »

I think Dark Deal on live is fine as is to be honest. I'm not sure why ZOS decided to include DD in its list of skills that gain immunity after interrupt, it makes no sense. You want to create intelligent counterplay, not simple counterplay with limited time windows. You can use DD so effectively on live, if you learn to LOS properly, take the Boundless Storm morph, especially as a medium armor build. Use shuffle to get out of snares, and with major expedition for 7s, you easily create distance between you and your opponent to use Dark Deal freely. This is smart counter play. Not the current bs that is on PTS right now. Honestly...I don't think ZOS employees ever play their game outside of public showings.

The point is that these "intelligent usage" of the skill creates asinine gameplay that everyone hates about sorcs bc the class engages=> runs away to return resources => engages again => runs away

Nobody wants to fight that or finds it enjoyable because it feels like abusive gameplay as there is no counterplay for a single opponent.

Having darkdeal be a safecast once after cc break is atleast creating the option for sorcs to actually fight without employing "absusive" tactics.
If the resource gain should be too high (which i doubt bc you can simply pressure a sorc that´s darkdealing and negate the gained resources with forced shields) it can be changed to return resources over time.

BohnT · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

THAT`S THE POINT. OTHER CLASSES DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT. Their resource recovery mechanics work automaticly on normal skills / passives.

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The big take away for me is:

Dark Deal etc is not an issue (as in, no it's not OP)
Sorcs are not OP
Sorcs are not going to be OP.

Simple really

Tell us how this won't be a Problem?
the same way birds and shalks are fine because you can LoS them, (which you can't because shalks ignore walls, heights etc and birds are delayed enough to hit you atleast 2 times behind walls)
or the same way destro was fine when they buffed it, fine like stamwarden, fine like proc sets and poisons?

Dark deal does not kill you. All the examples you made actually kill enemies. Dark deal is a defensive actions.
It just replaces other defensive cooldowns.

I can maybe see it being problematic on stamsorc but then - not really bc stamsorc as a whole isn´t that good at the moment.
On magsorc? Whats the difference for you? They´re getting stuck casting defensive cds wether its darkdeal or shields and they won´t run out of magica doing either.

Dark Deal will kill me aswell, there won't be DD in my death recap but the sorc won't die and can reset the fight as long as he wants, for zerglings this means the sorc will just stay alive with full resources until his zerg arrives to kill me. Against a good sorc i can either try to pressure him until I'm out of resources and then he can kill me because as you said they won't run out of resources spamming shields+ DD or i leave him and he can try to kill me until he finally succeeds.

Stamsorc is decent atm not at the level of stamwarden or stamnb but in a good enough spot to be pushed into op country with these changes

Boy i´ve got new for you.
You can´t pressure a sorc out of resources currently if you´re a magica build.

Also is your argument that dark deal will be op infight or while kiting?
On a magblade you can´t even bash enough to rupt a sorc that really wants to darkdeal (source: me i´ve tried this exact scenario in duels to test).

In kiting it won´t be any different. Infight it will just buy you more offensive time. Siphoning attacks will still be a better skill to use infight than dark deal.

I´m sorry but i´m not buying these arguments from mainly nightblade players about darkdeal becoming OP just because.
I´m playing both classes magica and stamina at the moment.
Darkdeal becoming infight vaible for sorc won´t magically make them op and for kiting nothing changes (just keep in mind infight it´ll still be the choice between ele drain and dark deal or they give up a different ability).

So you want to further the list of classes that can't beat sorcs?
I'm not thinking about my nightblades when posting here i think about how my stamplar, magdk, stamdk and magplar will face these changes.
On live a sorc can streak away and start casting DD but i have at least a chance to negate his attempts. This will work maybe 2/5 times but with these changes i can just give up fighting sorcs in open world.

I know you love these changes as a sorc main but even then you have to see how bad these changes are for the game.

And i trade streak+ DD for any resource mechanic in the game, take the 4% cost reduction of templars + repentance, have fun with battle roar or take my siphoning attacks.

You want me to make a list of the classes a (non pet) sorc can´t beat currently if they go full defensive? It´s a nonsense argument that leads nowhere.
But here you go: warden, magDK, templar, nightblade, magsorc
Oh wait...

Also streak + DD - so that´s the problem now? It´s kiting. Well you won´t ever have the chance to negate the attempts of a good sorcs streak + dd - nothing changes.

Infight i´d trade dark deal for every other classes resource mechanic - especially nightblades siphoning attacks which beats darkdeal in a combat situation hands down even after the changes to interrupts.

I don´t see how these changes are bad for the game because quite frankly said: Sorc is crap infight currently and no decent player should ever die to a non pet sorc currently in a 1v1 situation.
The only thing sorc is good at currently is forcing draws.
I don´t see how these changes are bad because currently if i want to dark deal no player can stop me from doing so. I just have to reset the fight for that (which is exactly what you critisize). The changes will enable sorc to use their resource mechanic in combat (like all other classes) without having to reset the fight.
I´m sorry to say that but i think a change that promotes actual combat instead of engage > reset rinse repeat is a good change.

A sorc always has the better situation after resetting the fight.
With DD you can get to full resources faster than any other class. If i play my sorc i can just reset the fight until i can kill my enemy because they can't regain their resources fast enough.

In combat siphoning gives you 7k stam/ mag over 20 seconds (8k - 1k cost) that translates to 800 regen if you hit every light attack weave.

DD returns 4k magicka / stamina per cast meaning is you use it twice in 20 seconds you are at 800 regen and if you use it more often this return increases and you are not forced to hit every light attack making LoS better with DD.

I have a problem with a new way to make sorc even more noob friendly. Now people can deal a lot damage from zergs, can shieldstack when you catch them 1v1 and now you can't even drain them because there is no counterplay to their sustain mechanics.

BohnT · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

And yet he´s arguing to keep sorc dead in that tracks instead of improving the combat viability of a core spell to sorcs sustain - ironic isn´t it?

Kronuxx wrote: »

I think Dark Deal on live is fine as is to be honest. I'm not sure why ZOS decided to include DD in its list of skills that gain immunity after interrupt, it makes no sense. You want to create intelligent counterplay, not simple counterplay with limited time windows. You can use DD so effectively on live, if you learn to LOS properly, take the Boundless Storm morph, especially as a medium armor build. Use shuffle to get out of snares, and with major expedition for 7s, you easily create distance between you and your opponent to use Dark Deal freely. This is smart counter play. Not the current bs that is on PTS right now. Honestly...I don't think ZOS employees ever play their game outside of public showings.

The point is that these "intelligent usage" of the skill creates asinine gameplay that everyone hates about sorcs bc the class engages=> runs away to return resources => engages again => runs away

Nobody wants to fight that or finds it enjoyable because it feels like abusive gameplay as there is no counterplay for a single opponent.

Having darkdeal be a safecast once after cc break is atleast creating the option for sorcs to actually fight without employing "absusive" tactics.
If the resource gain should be too high (which i doubt bc you can simply pressure a sorc that´s darkdealing and negate the gained resources with forced shields) it can be changed to return resources over time.

So it would be fine to nerf the mobility of sorcs? Because as you say with the changes they don't need the mobility but right now they can still utilise it

Feanor · January 2018

@BohnT

Mobility is an urban legend. In a world full of Stam builds running gap closers Streak doesn’t get you far if you don’t have a LoS opportunity. I’d gladly give up Streak and Shield stacking if I’d get a reliable and viable way to purge snares and a cheap good instant cast heal.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Mobility is an urban legend. In a world full of Stam builds running gap closers Streak doesn’t get you far if you don’t have a LoS opportunity. I’d gladly give up Streak and Shield stacking if I’d get a reliable and viable way to purge snares and a cheap good instant cast heal.

Just stop it. If you can't get away with streak you failed as a sorc.
You can infinitely spam Streak with DD and if a gapcloser fails once you are gone with LoS there is no way another player can get me on my sorc unless they us sorc aswell.

Feanor · January 2018

CP is the real world? It’s an abomination that is the root of so many problems in the game. So thanks, I’ll stay in my noCP niche with a lesser version of the OP god mode Sorc and have more fun that way.

Derra · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

A sorc always has the better situation after resetting the fight.
With DD you can get to full resources faster than any other class. If i play my sorc i can just reset the fight until i can kill my enemy because they can't regain their resources fast enough.

In combat siphoning gives you 7k stam/ mag over 20 seconds (8k - 1k cost) that translates to 800 regen if you hit every light attack weave.

DD returns 4k magicka / stamina per cast meaning is you use it twice in 20 seconds you are at 800 regen and if you use it more often this return increases and you are not forced to hit every light attack making LoS better with DD.

I have a problem with a new way to make sorc even more noob friendly. Now people can deal a lot damage from zergs, can shieldstack when you catch them 1v1 and now you can't even drain them because there is no counterplay to their sustain mechanics.

And again comfortably ignoring siphoning being currently one of the strongest hots in the game apart from restoring 20k resources/min.
How much magica do you save by not having to heal/shield bc of siphoning healing for up to 2k health per lightattack?

BohnT wrote: »

So it would be fine to nerf the mobility of sorcs? Because as you say with the changes they don't need the mobility but right now they can still utilise it

Sure if you want even more zerging nonsense.
Just because one aspect improves does not mean you have to nerf another as there is no direct correlation between the two.

What is your point even. Where do you feel sorc is overperforming? Where have the big bad sorcs touched you?

I honestly find the argument amusing that "it´s going to be harder to kill xyz" - coming from a position where the best that can happen for the sorcs on equal skilllevel currently is that the fight ends in a draw.
They´re not going to kill you. They´re not in a position that they even can. The change is not going to change that. It´s just going to make it harder to reap in free ap (because that´s what the whining here is about - not getting free ap). Boohoo.

Edit: I know you can kill dark dealing sorcs just fine bc i play my magblade and my magsorc with a pure ranged build without an interrupt. Even if ppl darkdeal in my face i can still kill them (or i can´t but they can´t tough me either).

Feanor · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Mobility is an urban legend. In a world full of Stam builds running gap closers Streak doesn’t get you far if you don’t have a LoS opportunity. I’d gladly give up Streak and Shield stacking if I’d get a reliable and viable way to purge snares and a cheap good instant cast heal.

Just stop it. If you can't get away with streak you failed as a sorc.
You can infinitely spam Streak with DD and if a gapcloser fails once you are gone with LoS there is no way another player can get me on my sorc unless they us sorc aswell.

Maybe we can agree that CP and noCP are entirely different worlds. Which is a thing ZOS should have never let happen.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

CP is the real world? It’s an abomination that is the root of so many problems in the game. So thanks, I’ll stay in my noCP niche with a lesser version of the OP god mode Sorc and have more fun that way.

Yes, PvE is Cp based 3/5 Campaigns are Cp based.
And your precious non cp is affected by cp.
For years the cp worked there so the non CP you've been playing was just a "CP light" campaign

Feanor · January 2018

The CP passives worked in noCP, yes. And this was always a bug. If you enjoy CP enabled PvP, it’s good for you. To each his own. I agree though that balance discussions are more difficult than they should be because experience can differ greatly between the two play styles. Another reason why the CP system is bad.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2018

I want to be able to shut down the other classes ressource return mechanics with a simple bash, too. Dark deal, right now, is almost unusable infight vs decent opponents, stamsorc speaking. So, basically, I am not allowed to have class based ressource return infight, that's a pretty big disadvantage compared to even, lets say a stam dk.

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

....
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

This is the most uneducated and untrue statement I have read for a very long time on these forums.

BohnT · January 2018

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

A sorc always has the better situation after resetting the fight.
With DD you can get to full resources faster than any other class. If i play my sorc i can just reset the fight until i can kill my enemy because they can't regain their resources fast enough.

In combat siphoning gives you 7k stam/ mag over 20 seconds (8k - 1k cost) that translates to 800 regen if you hit every light attack weave.

DD returns 4k magicka / stamina per cast meaning is you use it twice in 20 seconds you are at 800 regen and if you use it more often this return increases and you are not forced to hit every light attack making LoS better with DD.

I have a problem with a new way to make sorc even more noob friendly. Now people can deal a lot damage from zergs, can shieldstack when you catch them 1v1 and now you can't even drain them because there is no counterplay to their sustain mechanics.

And again comfortably ignoring siphoning being currently one of the strongest hots in the game apart from restoring 20k resources/min.
How much magica do you save by not having to heal/shield bc of siphoning healing for up to 2k health per lightattack?

BohnT wrote: »

So it would be fine to nerf the mobility of sorcs? Because as you say with the changes they don't need the mobility but right now they can still utilise it

Sure if you want even more zerging nonsense.
Just because one aspect improves does not mean you have to nerf another as there is no direct correlation between the two.

And risk that you get insta nuked because you don't have a shield? I don't buy the siphoning is better than DD.
They are both great skills outperforming the sustain mechanics of the other 2 old classes by far. But I'd take DD over siphoning attacks any day.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

The CP passives worked in noCP, yes. And this was always a bug. If you enjoy CP enabled PvP, it’s good for you. To each his own. I agree though that balance discussions are more difficult than they should be because experience can differ greatly between the two play styles. Another reason why the CP system is bad.

Maybe the less used non cp is the problem?

BohnT · January 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I want to be able to shut down the other classes ressource return mechanics with a simple bash, too. Dark deal, right now, is almost unusable infight vs decent opponents, stamsorc speaking. So, basically, I am not allowed to have class based ressource return infight, that's a pretty big disadvantage compared to even, lets say a stam dk.

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

....
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

This is the most uneducated and untrue statement I have read for a very long time on these forums.

Tell me another combination that works as good as sorcs.

With 4 sorcs you can nuke 1 enemy every 3 seconds by using 1 gcd. And with resto ult spam + healing ward you won't kill any of the sorcs.
And if the fight begins to flip you always have streak and the others can try to waste their resources to get to you

Feanor · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The CP passives worked in noCP, yes. And this was always a bug. If you enjoy CP enabled PvP, it’s good for you. To each his own. I agree though that balance discussions are more difficult than they should be because experience can differ greatly between the two play styles. Another reason why the CP system is bad.

Maybe the less used non cp is the problem?

The noCP population isn’t that small, which is especially true for BGs. Many players think noCP is nearer to how PvP should be, if you forget about some glaring issues that stem from CP PvP being there also (like siege damage being a tad too high for example). Not everyone enjoys Vivec.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The CP passives worked in noCP, yes. And this was always a bug. If you enjoy CP enabled PvP, it’s good for you. To each his own. I agree though that balance discussions are more difficult than they should be because experience can differ greatly between the two play styles. Another reason why the CP system is bad.

Maybe the less used non cp is the problem?

The noCP population isn’t that small, which is especially true for BGs. Many players think noCP is nearer to how PvP should be, if you forget about some glaring issues that stem from CP PvP being there also (like siege damage being a tad too high for example). Not everyone enjoys Vivec.

I don't enjoy Vivec but that's latency related. But i enjoy having resources and can win fights even when another enemy joins the fight
Non CP always end in huge blob zergs because people don't see how they can perform solo.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I want to be able to shut down the other classes ressource return mechanics with a simple bash, too. Dark deal, right now, is almost unusable infight vs decent opponents, stamsorc speaking. So, basically, I am not allowed to have class based ressource return infight, that's a pretty big disadvantage compared to even, lets say a stam dk.

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

....
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

This is the most uneducated and untrue statement I have read for a very long time on these forums.

Tell me another combination that works as good as sorcs.

With 4 sorcs you can nuke 1 enemy every 3 seconds by using 1 gcd. And with resto ult spam + healing ward you won't kill any of the sorcs.
And if the fight begins to flip you always have streak and the others can try to waste their resources to get to you

Dude, any other combination is better. I don't even know what to tell you, besides: play more BGs. Until then refrain from making statements that rely on theory crafted wishful thinking.

Aedaryl · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Mobility is an urban legend. In a world full of Stam builds running gap closers Streak doesn’t get you far if you don’t have a LoS opportunity. I’d gladly give up Streak and Shield stacking if I’d get a reliable and viable way to purge snares and a cheap good instant cast heal.

Just stop it. If you can't get away with streak you failed as a sorc.
You can infinitely spam Streak with DD and if a gapcloser fails once you are gone with LoS there is no way another player can get me on my sorc unless they us sorc aswell.

What a shame here. You need 3 streak to be out of range from gap closer. If you look the sorc streak twice without using a gap closer you need to l2p.

If don't have a gap closer, nothing has changed for you.

You seems to forget sorc need to give up block or shield stacking when they DD, you can burst them when they channel and RIP sorc. A magicka sorc will eat stamina for streaking again. That's mean they are dead on the next cc.

Stamina sorc can only streak twice before being OOM. That's mean there still in gap close range when they DD. If you can't gap close them, then it's because they LoS and so DD being unterruptable change nothing.

You also seems to forget the sorc will stop streaking when channeled DD, giving you time.

Sorc isn't a problem at all in this meta and they are underperforming compared to 1&S meta.

Aedaryl · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

Sixty5 · January 2018

If a Sorc, stam or mag is spamming Dark Deal in the middle of combat, all they are doing is identifying themselves as a terrible player, and any of the PVP gods here should have no issues crushing them.

7 seconds of being able to freely cast the ability is not worth getting stunned, especially given that if I am dark dealing, I need either health or stam.

I can't really see this change making any difference

Mojomonkeyman · January 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

Aedaryl · January 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ive played vs sorcs enough to know...and ive played a sorc enough to know...that having a 7s window frequently during a fight to spam uninterruptable dark deal/exchange will be pretty much overperforming. The only reason I currently can run sorcs out of resources is because I make it my business to twarth their effort to Dark Deal. Forcing them to (if fighting me) adjust their build to sustain better automatically.
If ZOS takes away a large portion of a counter to DD, they wont have to do that like the other classes do.

You´ve played a nb from 0 to grand overlord since the last time i´ve seen you play sorc for more than 20 minutes and then relogging because you think the class is borked for open world combat.

That´s no point reinforcing your argument.

Which it is. It’s fine for Zerg surfing. You don’t see Sorcs in small scale or 1vX though besides the occasional negate monkey or encase spammer. The class offers not much utility for group play and there are so many things other classes do much better. If not for shields the class would be dead.

Yeah right, Malcom, Metzger, Hexiss, Derra, Badt, Ralyc, Viau Fasold, Bobby etc. are all zerg surfers.
The number of sorcs in small scale and 1vX is much higher than any other class. I guess it's because sorc is so bad.

You have to leave your non CP niche and check the real world.
In BGS 4 sorcs are better than any other constellation you can get.

Here is a shame too. Nothing beats 4 stamina tanks in BGs. If you can't kill or survive to a sorc, that's only mean you build is BAD or that you need to L2P.

This is on the same level of wrong as the statement of BohnT...

What's your server and platform ?

Look at this guys

BohnT wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:
Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn

3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:
1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)

2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Read his changes to make DK "viable again" and why "stam dk is weak in PvP". There is nothing to argue here, he is a bad dk thiking his meta class is weak and non viable.