Why Do Guild Dues Exist?

Anne13 · December 2017

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

My own personal opinion is large trading guilds do deserve a weekly due from myself. The guild leaders do all the laborious stuff whilst I get to make money doing semi enjoyable stuff at worse.

I don't pretend to talk on behalf of others, but whilst I don't get along with some guild leaders and had differences with the likes of @Anne13 , I still do appreciate the work that they do for us plebs as I've accumulated millions from being in their guilds in the past. I think a lot of people think GM's rake in millions and pocket it all for little or no effort. That's simply not true in most cases.

There was no differences. But to the subject at hand. Thank you, it’s hard work and expensive. I have been starting to ss each bid won or lost to educate people the exact efforts and finances that has to go into running a guild big or small each week. Let alone the constant effort.
- recruitment
- admin. Kicking, notes, deposits of 500 members.
- Organising and self funding games, lottery’s and competitions.
- Bidding
- Feeling obliged to craft, answer questions and constant price checks.
- Putting millions in weekly of personal gold hours of farming to get that gold.
- Let alone guild halls, fully equipped with everything you need which all costs and takes time and effort.

People have it so easy.

Example which happens weekly. The guild earns 3.5m with 5k donations of those who donate and sale taxes.
To win and Deshaan trader I’d have to pay over 5m even that is not guaranteed and have lost many times.

Where does the excess gold come from?
It’s easy to have an opinion when looking through a letterbox...

Whilst I agree there are some guild owners that scam, use fake guilds, multiple guilds and multiple accounts to achieve this. Not everyone’s tied to the same brush.

The logic is simple. You pay 5k a week for rent. With a top high traffic location you’ll make much much more than that. It’s not rocket science. Even the 5k a week if all 500 members contribute still doesn’t even come close to what we pay. Please feel free to find and join and free guild with a betnikh trader and enjoy your 1 sale a week. Peace

Grumble_and_Grunt · December 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

The math doesn’t seem to add up to me. Dues plus sales should be more than an adequate amount of gold.

Every GM seems to be playing tiny violins which makes me raise an eyebrow.

I’ll withhold judgment since I’m quite happy with my one trade guild, and one donation guild.

I think it's less to do with violins and more to do with informing the community of their role to prevent misinformation and slander as seen by few individuals in this thread.

@code65536 Pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding the subject matter. Only difference I can imagine between servers is competition and how business practices can influence this. For example if you are competing for a spot and you do not have dues but others do then theoretically they have the advantage financially (assuming sales are similar).

On PC EU guild dues have been something that has become more common over time and therefore is slowly being adopted by most to remain competitive.Which could explain the difference in platforms/servers.As a Trade GM who recently adopted a 1k weekly guild due or 10k minimum weekly sales (the latter yielding 350 gold to the guild bank) this was my thought process behind it.

Cubagaming · December 2017

Exodium wrote: »

Shoutout to Precise Chaos on PS4 NA who actually know how to run a guild.

They are donation based (no mandatory weekly fees) and manage to secure top guild locations every week i.e. mournhold, ghratwood, stormhaven. They also raise their fees through auction events and raffles.

If you're looking to escape your oppressive guilds (cough back alley/aldmeri traders etc etc) hit me up with a msg and Ill pm you our leaders PSN account.

The GMs of Precise Chaos also spend their entire time farming to maintain the guild trader they have every week. I'm absolutely positive about this since I'm friends with them. Any GM can do that, however, there's people that just enjoy farming the game, and there's GMs like me that do farm but want to enjoy other aspects of the game as well.

Armatesz · December 2017

I can safely say I have seen some of my friends join certain guilds that have dues and they pay their dues and they get told several times the same day and each time they paid extra, got one friend that literally paid 200k in dues and was kicked. He reported their guild for their actions. Does when you give money to a guild automatically show up or is there a delay?

Armatesz · December 2017

I won't lie there are guilds that take advantage of others, I have seen some guilds that others would join, they would hound them to pay dues immediately and upon payment they would kick them.

jaye63 · December 2017

Because the more desirable store front run into the millions to maintain/keep from getting outbid. Or so I've been told.

Armatesz · December 2017

jaye63 wrote: »

Because the more desirable store front run into the millions to maintain/keep from getting outbid. Or so I've been told.

I've been told the same thing and I have often wondered if this is true or just full of it. I have wondered if it was appropriate to inquire about it or what I actually am aiming to figure out from this discussion.

Prof_Bawbag · December 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

Exodium wrote: »

Shoutout to Precise Chaos on PS4 NA who actually know how to run a guild.

They are donation based (no mandatory weekly fees) and manage to secure top guild locations every week i.e. mournhold, ghratwood, stormhaven. They also raise their fees through auction events and raffles.

If you're looking to escape your oppressive guilds (cough back alley/aldmeri traders etc etc) hit me up with a msg and Ill pm you our leaders PSN account.

The GMs of Precise Chaos also spend their entire time farming to maintain the guild trader they have every week. I'm absolutely positive about this since I'm friends with them. Any GM can do that, however, there's people that just enjoy farming the game, and there's GMs like me that do farm but want to enjoy other aspects of the game as well.

But your time and effort are expendable whilst those who call all GM's scammers, their 5k isn't. That's gamer logic for you.

What I will say in defence of those who think they're getting ripped off right, left and centre there are some unscrupulous GM's around.We have one on PS4 EU who's particularly toxic and is everything those people claim GM's are (Fake guilds everywhere you look and more to boot). So if that's the kind of GM some people have only had access to, then I don't blame them for thinking what they think.

I'm 99% certain that the GM in question even had the audacity to come on here and create a thread highlighting his shock at all those guilds that charge fees. He does it himself. I was in one of his guilds for a few weeks and saw his MoTD which stated donations were required.

Cubagaming · December 2017

I'm the GM of a PS4 NA Trading guild. The amount of stupid remarks and comments on this thread is insane. Literally insane.....
My guild is based on donations only, however, we are aligned with other trading guilds that do have a fee. They hold awesome trading spots each week, I'm usually in Craglorn because donations alone cannot go to mournhold or the tree. I always tell my members, the more money we get each week, the better spot. We have been lucky and gone to mournhold, the tree, and wayrest a few times but we can't do that every week on donations alone. I'm not like other guild masters that spend their entire eso time farming and are donation only. I respect that, however, I don't enjoy just farming like they do. They run a great guild and I understand they have fun running around in circles farming all day.

My guilty pleasure is trials, so whenever I do a trial, the plunder goes straight to my guild bank. Anytime we do a skin carry, the money from that goes to my guild bank. Why? Because I want my members to have the best spot possible. I had to put some of my own money even after all that into the guild bank this week to get our cart. I personally know others GM's do it as well and they have fees in their guilds.

So whoever says that the fees are just a way to scam, try staying in area chat for multiple minutes and hours at a time and try and sell something the same price as a trader would have. You can pay 5-15k per week depending on spots you want to sell your stuff and put it in the trader as past of 30 slots and go do something else. *** sells even when you are offline so the trader is making you money when you are not playing the game.

I've made millions in eso but not by stealing, but by playing the market and know what's hot and what's not, buying or farming those hot things and then selling. Investing in gold mats when they are low and sell higher, farming nodes, etc....

jazsper77 · December 2017

I see the defenders of the weekly Fees are here, I also see 2 members from the alliance of 5 (Ps4 NA) . Is there a cost Yes, but many Guilds secure Capitol City traders year in and out Wo Fees.
My Guild (which I openly recruit on these forums) has been here day 1 of current Trader system. I believe there are 3 of us founding Ps4 NA left.
I'm a Gm and Officer in all my Guilds- so I'll give you the players who are new to Trading what to look for and for SUPPOSED GUILD GMS AND OFFICERS ON THIS THREAD WHO KNOW HOW IT WORKS.
So here is a list of money flow your corrupt guilds make and keep from its members.

1. Bank deposits- if your guild has it set where you cannot see or withdraw from bank but can deposit. Run ! Every green,blue,purp thing you deposited is deconed by Gm or officers and sold or used to build in there $120.00 houses

2. Bid wars- again if you cannot not see deposit history Run ! The other night I witnessed a Guild I'm not in Raise on my calculations 7.5 million. How much of that went to Gm /officers ? All items were donated by members you know (packages).
this same guild charges 10k a wk .

3. Ghost Trader Flip- so this group of Guilds has Officers bid (with your money) on ghost traders. Rawl,Stormhold,Marbruck,Shornhelm the pop spots.so just like Gold sellers they have set up on contact system thru FB/Discord/text etc and either sell the spot outright for 3x the amount or have a SHOTGUN bid if it's a prime ghost. Which I've seen flip for as high as 15mill.
The main reason Trader cost is going up is because of the ghost Traders and Guilds are over bidding for spots to secure Trader.
The $$$$$$ made of the Ghost Trader you the member paid for went to the Gm and Officers.

4. Raffles- unless you are getting a screenshot of the app with amount of entries and winner Run ! Also when you see the Gm or Officer announce the winner and its someone you have never seen in game/chat its most likely one of there alt acts that's getting your money.

5. 50/50- again with out screenshot proof run! If you cannot verify funds deposited into GB Run again. If the guild has it set up so you MAIL THE $$$$ to a Gm or office run ! I've seen guilds take in 4mill and announce that the winner got 600k and the guild got 600k. Nice math .

6. Do you notice how these Gms all have the the best Homes aka Guild Halls with Transmute station,all attun stations ,etc All that was acquired thru members , yet most members have no idea that once that stuff is in the Guild Hall it cannot be removed and is the Gms for good.

There is much much more but this should be a good guide for players looking to join HONEST GUILDS and the dirty things that go on in officer chat.

Remember TMK and MASTER MERCHANTS - 2 old guilds who were the top free and fee guilds at 1 time. Twice in a month members woke up to find there inbox full of items do to Guild/Guilds disbanding in the middle of the night. 14million and 36mill were the respective GB gold balances at the time plus the full GB contents. All went to the GMS.

SO WHEN THE DEFENDERS of the fee practice run to the forums be cautious to there words,they are also the ones who run to the AH is a terrible idea thread. Lol. They would lose there $$$$$ making system.

There are good fee based guilds do your homework and see if it's what you want.

Armatesz · December 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

I'm the GM of a PS4 NA Trading guild. The amount of stupid remarks and comments on this thread is insane. Literally insane.....
My guild is based on donations only, however, we are aligned with other trading guilds that do have a fee. They hold awesome trading spots each week, I'm usually in Craglorn because donations alone cannot go to mournhold or the tree. I always tell my members, the more money we get each week, the better spot. We have been lucky and gone to mournhold, the tree, and wayrest a few times but we can't do that every week on donations alone. I'm not like other guild masters that spend their entire eso time farming and are donation only. I respect that, however, I don't enjoy just farming like they do. They run a great guild and I understand they have fun running around in circles farming all day.

My guilty pleasure is trials, so whenever I do a trial, the plunder goes straight to my guild bank. Anytime we do a skin carry, the money from that goes to my guild bank. Why? Because I want my members to have the best spot possible. I had to put some of my own money even after all that into the guild bank this week to get our cart. I personally know others GM's do it as well and they have fees in their guilds.

So whoever says that the fees are just a way to scam, try staying in area chat for multiple minutes and hours at a time and try and sell something the same price as a trader would have. You can pay 5-15k per week depending on spots you want to sell your stuff and put it in the trader as past of 30 slots and go do something else. *** sells even when you are offline so the trader is making you money when you are not playing the game.

I've made millions in eso but not by stealing, but by playing the market and know what's hot and what's not, buying or farming those hot things and then selling. Investing in gold mats when they are low and sell higher, farming nodes, etc....

It is not insane as to people are wanting to know. It is insane to not ask questions and blindly follow others not knowing.
I have a different directive than some of the others that go about it as say a stingy sort of way. Have fun playing the game is what I aim for, the constant worrying can make this game not enjoyable for anyone and can burn you out. I have seen tons of people get burned out by this. People wonder why I remain guildless and then they see after a while and they realize to enjoy the game in their own sort of way. It is not enjoyable to see others stress themselves out seeing if they can make payments to a guild, it is not enjoyable to see others worry if they have enough dues for their guild to secure a spot. I don't use guild traders as I am guildless. I can also make millions as well without selling to others, without stealing as well.

There is systems out there that can make you money OUTSIDE of being in a guild. During the halloween event I literally made a quarter of a 1/3 of a million not selling to others or guild traders. Just from money farming and the like. Not selling to others. Winded up buying the exorcised coven cottage. I keep hearing people say they have to struggle just to sell stuff in guild traders or that they want to work to get some meager amount of money. I don't like seeing others struggle. I actually want others to enjoy themselves.

KochDerDamonen · December 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's just a way to take advantage of members. None of the guilds that ask for dues actually need them to keep their trader or to keep the guild running. It's just a form extortion really , oftentimes for the benefit of RL $$.

a-and the guild could be paying all our college tuitions, taxation is thef, muh gov'ment puttin' chemicals in tha wata, ura ura ura ura *drools on the floor*

Armatesz · December 2017

jazsper77 wrote: »

I see the defenders of the weekly Fees are here, I also see 2 members from the alliance of 5 (Ps4 NA) . Is there a cost Yes, but many Guilds secure Capitol City traders year in and out Wo Fees.
My Guild (which I openly recruit on these forums) has been here day 1 of current Trader system. I believe there are 3 of us founding Ps4 NA left.
I'm a Gm and Officer in all my Guilds- so I'll give you the players who are new to Trading what to look for and for SUPPOSED GUILD GMS AND OFFICERS ON THIS THREAD WHO KNOW HOW IT WORKS.
So here is a list of money flow your corrupt guilds make and keep from its members.

1. Bank deposits- if your guild has it set where you cannot see or withdraw from bank but can deposit. Run ! Every green,blue,purp thing you deposited is deconed by Gm or officers and sold or used to build in there $120.00 houses

2. Bid wars- again if you cannot not see deposit history Run ! The other night I witnessed a Guild I'm not in Raise on my calculations 7.5 million. How much of that went to Gm /officers ? All items were donated by members you know (packages).
this same guild charges 10k a wk .

3. Ghost Trader Flip- so this group of Guilds has Officers bid (with your money) on ghost traders. Rawl,Stormhold,Marbruck,Shornhelm the pop spots.so just like Gold sellers they have set up on contact system thru FB/Discord/text etc and either sell the spot outright for 3x the amount or have a SHOTGUN bid if it's a prime ghost. Which I've seen flip for as high as 15mill.
The main reason Trader cost is going up is because of the ghost Traders and Guilds are over bidding for spots to secure Trader.
The $$$$$$ made of the Ghost Trader you the member paid for went to the Gm and Officers.

4. Raffles- unless you are getting a screenshot of the app with amount of entries and winner Run ! Also when you see the Gm or Officer announce the winner and its someone you have never seen in game/chat its most likely one of there alt acts that's getting your money.

5. 50/50- again with out screenshot proof run! If you cannot verify funds deposited into GB Run again. If the guild has it set up so you MAIL THE $$$$ to a Gm or office run ! I've seen guilds take in 4mill and announce that the winner got 600k and the guild got 600k. Nice math .

6. Do you notice how these Gms all have the the best Homes aka Guild Halls with Transmute station,all attun stations ,etc All that was acquired thru members , yet most members have no idea that once that stuff is in the Guild Hall it cannot be removed and is the Gms for good.

There is much much more but this should be a good guide for players looking to join HONEST GUILDS and the dirty things that go on in officer chat.

Remember TMK and MASTER MERCHANTS - 2 old guilds who were the top free and fee guilds at 1 time. Twice in a month members woke up to find there inbox full of items do to Guild/Guilds disbanding in the middle of the night. 14million and 36mill were the respective GB gold balances at the time plus the full GB contents. All went to the GMS.

SO WHEN THE DEFENDERS of the fee practice run to the forums be cautious to there words,they are also the ones who run to the AH is a terrible idea thread. Lol. They would lose there $$$$$ making system.

There are good fee based guilds do your homework and see if it's what you want.

I am not a part of a guild, never had run one. What I have in my own home I have worked to get. Transmute station, 3 training dummies, all basic crafting stations (for reasons of basic conveniences for others) 174 lorebooks and I am fairly certain I am missing quite a bit of other things as well. Transmute station was a pain to work towards...

cbdfarm · December 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's just a way to take advantage of members. None of the guilds that ask for dues actually need them to keep their trader or to keep the guild running. It's just a form extortion really , oftentimes for the benefit of RL $$.

100 percent true. If you see a guild asking for dues, run far away, they are scammers. The leader usually keeps the left over money for him/herself while still asking for more to upgrade the guild house, its nothing but a scam, find a guild that doesnt try to extort you.

I personally would love to see a grand exchange(runescape style) trade system as the "guild traders" have always been *** in my eyes,spreading out trade driving prices up on items,even stuff like mats, it would be a welcome change in my eyes.

CromulentForumID · December 2017

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Guild dues should only be necessary for trade guilds and only for the better locations. This isn't nearly as widespread on PC as it is on consoles. On PC you can find many trade guilds without mandatory dues and I don't know of a single non-trade guild that requires any dues.

In most cases, it's not greed that drives these dues but the fact that guild traders have a high weekly upkeep cost. I've never known a trade guild GM that makes money off of running their guild. Many put much of their own personal in game wealth into growing the guild.

Do your research and find a guild that works for you. If you don't want to pay guild dues, that's fine, but understand fully why those dues are in place before automatically assuming it's corruption and greed which it is not 99 times out of 100.

Insightful but you completely ignored my question to push your own agenda/frustration on a concept.

But from the comment I was able to extract that guild dues exist because of the guild store costs. Which answers my question while defending the guild leaders right to extort players for gold... Are you a dunmer? Dunmer believe it is an inherent right to have slaves, but saying so for the sake of upkeep does not make it right.

Face it, you didn't really ask a question

You wanted to start a topic on how Guild Fees are a dirty little part of the ESO trading experience. You just used question marks. But no worries, passive-aggressive is my favorite aggressive, so thumbs-up!

Distasteful greed. Extort. Slaves. Yep, just an honest question looking for knowledge.

Cubagaming · December 2017

cbdfarm wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

It's just a way to take advantage of members. None of the guilds that ask for dues actually need them to keep their trader or to keep the guild running. It's just a form extortion really , oftentimes for the benefit of RL $$.

100 percent true. If you see a guild asking for dues, run far away, they are scammers. The leader usually keeps the left over money for him/herself while still asking for more to upgrade the guild house, its nothing but a scam, find a guild that doesnt try to extort you.

I personally would love to see a grand exchange(runescape style) trade system as the "guild traders" have always been *** in my eyes,spreading out trade driving prices up on items,even stuff like mats, it would be a welcome change in my eyes.

And you know this how?

Funny part about transmute station in my house is the fact I paid actual money so the guildies can use it there if they don't have the clockwork dlc, same with julianos and armor master. Yes, I did have help getting writ vouchers for those, however, all the mats I've spent doing those vouchers were mine.

As far as looking at deposits and such, there's a specific rank in my guild that is non-officer than can see it. The people in that rank are players that have been in the guild for a long time or that have contributed to the guild in many ways. We wouldn't have to hide the guild history if people would stop counting and figuring out how much we are bidding on a specific spot. Yes, that has happened.

Let me tell ya something about ghost guild traders, you can beat them, they put a bid just like anyone else. I can tell ya that the bids that are put on those are pretty close to what the cart goes for. People saying that money for that is contributed by the guilds that the people are officers in don't know what they're talking about. Unless the person saying that the trader was flipped for 15 mil is the person that paid that, I call ***.

Be happy that the ghosts are there, in my opinion, those are keeping prices on carts down. If those were to go away, you are going to see a bigger influx of guilds putting in more money bids because it's not a pure guarantee or even half a guarantee. So that spot in mournhold that costs 5 mill per week, you might as well add another 1-2 mill because that's where it'll head. It won't happen the first week, but it will happen eventually.

Also, people that do ghosts, make money in other things. They don't need to make money on ghosts. They either already have millions from before, or farm like crazy and get millions each week.

Obviously, people here don't have a clear understanding of what's really going on. Otherwise, you wouldn't be sitting here calling guildmasters scammers.

Armatesz · December 2017

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Guild dues should only be necessary for trade guilds and only for the better locations. This isn't nearly as widespread on PC as it is on consoles. On PC you can find many trade guilds without mandatory dues and I don't know of a single non-trade guild that requires any dues.

In most cases, it's not greed that drives these dues but the fact that guild traders have a high weekly upkeep cost. I've never known a trade guild GM that makes money off of running their guild. Many put much of their own personal in game wealth into growing the guild.

Do your research and find a guild that works for you. If you don't want to pay guild dues, that's fine, but understand fully why those dues are in place before automatically assuming it's corruption and greed which it is not 99 times out of 100.

Insightful but you completely ignored my question to push your own agenda/frustration on a concept.

But from the comment I was able to extract that guild dues exist because of the guild store costs. Which answers my question while defending the guild leaders right to extort players for gold... Are you a dunmer? Dunmer believe it is an inherent right to have slaves, but saying so for the sake of upkeep does not make it right.

Face it, you didn't really ask a question

You wanted to start a topic on how Guild Fees are a dirty little part of the ESO trading experience. You just used question marks. But no worries, passive-aggressive is my favorite aggressive, so thumbs-up!

Distasteful greed. Extort. Slaves. Yep, just an honest question looking for knowledge.

I'm more looking at it as a way of addressing things to consider

duendology · December 2017

Having read this thread..honestly, I have no idea whom to believe....

I am in 5 guilds (PC/NA), two of them are strictly trading guilds in two major cities in the very good spots (next to wayshrine etc.) One requires a weekly fee (if you do not meet a weekly sale minimum), which I don't pay..apparently I meet the weekly minimum sale because I haven't been kicked out yet and my rank is still "trader" (if I get kicked out, I'll join another one). The other Guild does not require any fee whatsoever and, interestingly enough, stuff sells there faster than in the one where the fee is mandatory.

From the very beginning this whole system has been, hmm , a little too murky for me.. for one reason.. If a guild wants money in order to stay "afloat" (through so called "donations" and mandatory "fees)..as it's stated by many GMs here, fair enough.. but make your weekly guild money flow aka accounting transparent to people whom you take money from or who graciously donate to your guild.. If all is hidden from your guild members.. then sorry, you get no money from me and I'll seek other guild.

Linaleah · December 2017

Armatesz wrote: »

I honestly would not go so far as to say it is immune to inflation but now instead of a generally all experiencing it there is pockets of areas that could happen to. Now note this does not make the market immune to price fluctuating, however it does make it so that no one has any real control on the market value on items. Remember any guild with enough people that pools enough money together can take over any prime or not so prime location and take in that spot. That being said there are naturally some spots where people don't often look at that are a city location.

I can say there are items that are far easier to just farm for than to buy from guild traders, and there are some items to be fairly honest is easier to just wait for someone to post in a zone chat than to farm for.

I think another factor that some or a lot of us can agree on is that bot accounts do also ruin the market value on items.

I can also think that another bad thing about guild traders is that it does not teach you how to actually make money outside of a guild trader at all.

I've talked to quite a bit of people that make their money somehow mainly from guild traders and I a person not in a guild that does not sell items to other players make far more money than they do. I don't understand it and I don't understand the need to stress oneself over making some insane amount of money.

I'm a filthy casual. I sell excess of what I farm for myself mostly. are you telling me that you are making half a million or more gold per week in a relatively short amount of time (I rarely just farm, I mostly just grab things as I quest or explore, unless its urns for furniture recipes, but even those don't take much time nowadays) without selling? what's your secret? because before I started trading my income was much lower, while requiring far more time investment from me.

(as to what that gold is used for, everyone has their own thing, I have a housing obsession, so that's what bulk of my gold goes to)

what exactly can you possibly do that generates as much gold as trading in a good location in the same amount of time? please, do share.

dedicated farming is time consuming and time spent farming = time not spent actualy playing.

P.S. location absolutely does matter. I started out with a trading guild that had a trader in a middle of nowhere. no dues or minimums, but barely any sales, even while pricing bellow market averages (on pc, addons make it easier to track prices), eventually I moved on to trader in somewhat popular cities, but not the big pledge 3. sales improved. somewhat recently, I joined a mournhold guild. the difference event between that and my starter city guild is incredible. I sell much MUCH faster (we are talking hours, vs days - for same types of items). I can set prices that are slightly higher (still need to be reasonable to sell, but I don't have to set them at lower end of TTC suggestions like I do in my other guild). and it makes sense. pledge cities get more traffic and are more convenient to shop at. at one point I was running severely out of space in my bank because of all the excess recipes. they are pretty much all gone now, ever since joining that mournhold guild and I went from taking a few weeks to save up for a medium house to taking 2 weeks to save up for a large one. so yeah. I can very much believe those locations costing more because they provide better returns and as such, are more desirable.

Taleof2Cities · December 2017

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Ok so instead of being helpful and simply answering my initial question, you tell me to "join one myself to find out." Thanks...?

Sometimes it’s better to experience something first-hand ... rather than just spoon-feeding knowledge.

Linaleah · December 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Ok so instead of being helpful and simply answering my initial question, you tell me to "join one myself to find out." Thanks...?

Sometimes it’s better to experience something first-hand ... rather than just spoon-feeding knowledge.

a vague answer to hide the fact that.. you have no answer. but I can give you the answer. top sellers subsidize the rest, raffles and donations are strongly encouraged, and GM's likely still add gold to the pot out of their own pocket.

Armatesz · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Armatesz wrote: »

I honestly would not go so far as to say it is immune to inflation but now instead of a generally all experiencing it there is pockets of areas that could happen to. Now note this does not make the market immune to price fluctuating, however it does make it so that no one has any real control on the market value on items. Remember any guild with enough people that pools enough money together can take over any prime or not so prime location and take in that spot. That being said there are naturally some spots where people don't often look at that are a city location.

I can say there are items that are far easier to just farm for than to buy from guild traders, and there are some items to be fairly honest is easier to just wait for someone to post in a zone chat than to farm for.

I think another factor that some or a lot of us can agree on is that bot accounts do also ruin the market value on items.

I can also think that another bad thing about guild traders is that it does not teach you how to actually make money outside of a guild trader at all.

I've talked to quite a bit of people that make their money somehow mainly from guild traders and I a person not in a guild that does not sell items to other players make far more money than they do. I don't understand it and I don't understand the need to stress oneself over making some insane amount of money.

I'm a filthy casual. I sell excess of what I farm for myself mostly. are you telling me that you are making half a million or more gold per week in a relatively short amount of time (I rarely just farm, I mostly just grab things as I quest or explore, unless its urns for furniture recipes, but even those don't take much time nowadays) without selling? what's your secret? because before I started trading my income was much lower, while requiring far more time investment from me.

(as to what that gold is used for, everyone has their own thing, I have a housing obsession, so that's what bulk of my gold goes to)

what exactly can you possibly do that generates as much gold as trading in a good location in the same amount of time? please, do share.

dedicated farming is time consuming and time spent farming = time not spent actualy playing.

There are spots to money farm and honestly during the halloween event no one was messing it up and I was able to participate in the halloween event as well.
I can explain as to the aspect of money farming. There are builds that when played certain ways can make you a lot of money but this can be mentally draining as it can be only certain builds. Those builds are those that can deal with highly condensed amount of groups of enemies. Templars can do this and I run as a Breton doing so, but I run in heavy armor. There is routines that you can do in crimson cove that net you a fair bit of money (about 5k in like 5-10 minutes or more) There is a sort of path and there is a lesser one which is not as good but is reserved for in case others mess it up but you can actually take it back over easily from a zerg. You would be running with a resto staff and destro but typically using resto and likely not a chance to use the destro because of how many enemies you are dealing with at a time. No real time for that. Skills to use are puncturing sweep for health maintain and radiant aura so you never run out of mag, ward ally is used so you always have one for the initial boot up to collecting enemies. I am fully willing to show people the run, you are getting I think 40 or 50 enemies. More enemies condensed in an area the better the loot drop and more money you get. the 5k was before selling to a merchant. That is just raw gold, never used prosperous set when it was out and was not affected by its removal. The first room of crimson cove is the better money farming spot, you start off not hitting center first, there is some huts on left side hit around there but don't worry about tunnel. about huts there is two groups there, you go from there and tag each enemy along the way counter clockwise but don't go to far or that hut area removes itself, you try as far as going to the other opposing side hut but the tunnel you see when you first enter that is to your right you pull those enemies, there is some loose stragglers behind that rock that is the center, those things are kinda hard to get grouped up with all the enemies but you have them all meet in the center. You are trying to get them all collectively collected together, if you can drop a shard on location but you don't want to kill them too quickly, the last ones to worry about are the ranged attackers but defilers are the most annoying because they can glitch your healing and prevent you from healing. There is a rock formation that you see when you first enter on the left side, just go up that rock formation and duck to wait for enemies to respawn, if enough people come in there enough they respawn fairly quickly.

Linaleah · December 2017

Armatesz wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Armatesz wrote: »

I honestly would not go so far as to say it is immune to inflation but now instead of a generally all experiencing it there is pockets of areas that could happen to. Now note this does not make the market immune to price fluctuating, however it does make it so that no one has any real control on the market value on items. Remember any guild with enough people that pools enough money together can take over any prime or not so prime location and take in that spot. That being said there are naturally some spots where people don't often look at that are a city location.

I can say there are items that are far easier to just farm for than to buy from guild traders, and there are some items to be fairly honest is easier to just wait for someone to post in a zone chat than to farm for.

I think another factor that some or a lot of us can agree on is that bot accounts do also ruin the market value on items.

I can also think that another bad thing about guild traders is that it does not teach you how to actually make money outside of a guild trader at all.

I've talked to quite a bit of people that make their money somehow mainly from guild traders and I a person not in a guild that does not sell items to other players make far more money than they do. I don't understand it and I don't understand the need to stress oneself over making some insane amount of money.

I'm a filthy casual. I sell excess of what I farm for myself mostly. are you telling me that you are making half a million or more gold per week in a relatively short amount of time (I rarely just farm, I mostly just grab things as I quest or explore, unless its urns for furniture recipes, but even those don't take much time nowadays) without selling? what's your secret? because before I started trading my income was much lower, while requiring far more time investment from me.

(as to what that gold is used for, everyone has their own thing, I have a housing obsession, so that's what bulk of my gold goes to)

what exactly can you possibly do that generates as much gold as trading in a good location in the same amount of time? please, do share.

dedicated farming is time consuming and time spent farming = time not spent actualy playing.

There are spots to money farm and honestly during the halloween event no one was messing it up and I was able to participate in the halloween event as well.
I can explain as to the aspect of money farming. There are builds that when played certain ways can make you a lot of money but this can be mentally draining as it can be only certain builds. Those builds are those that can deal with highly condensed amount of groups of enemies. Templars can do this and I run as a Breton doing so, but I run in heavy armor. There is routines that you can do in crimson cove that net you a fair bit of money (about 5k in like 5-10 minutes or more) There is a sort of path and there is a lesser one which is not as good but is reserved for in case others mess it up but you can actually take it back over easily from a zerg. You would be running with a resto staff and destro but typically using resto and likely not a chance to use the destro because of how many enemies you are dealing with at a time. No real time for that. Skills to use are puncturing sweep for health maintain and radiant aura so you never run out of mag, ward ally is used so you always have one for the initial boot up to collecting enemies. I am fully willing to show people the run, you are getting I think 40 or 50 enemies. More enemies condensed in an area the better the loot drop and more money you get. the 5k was before selling to a merchant. That is just raw gold, never used prosperous set when it was out and was not affected by its removal. The first room of crimson cove is the better money farming spot, you start off not hitting center first, there is some huts on left side hit around there but don't worry about tunnel. about huts there is two groups there, you go from there and tag each enemy along the way counter clockwise but don't go to far or that hut area removes itself, you try as far as going to the other opposing side hut but the tunnel you see when you first enter that is to your right you pull those enemies, there is some loose stragglers behind that rock that is the center, those things are kinda hard to get grouped up with all the enemies but you have them all meet in the center. You are trying to get them all collectively collected together, if you can drop a shard on location but you don't want to kill them too quickly, the last ones to worry about are the ranged attackers but defilers are the most annoying because they can glitch your healing and prevent you from healing. There is a rock formation that you see when you first enter on the left side, just go up that rock formation and duck to wait for enemies to respawn, if enough people come in there enough they respawn fairly quickly.

so what you are saying is... I have to grind. and grind a LOT. no thank you.

Armatesz · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Armatesz wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Armatesz wrote: »

I honestly would not go so far as to say it is immune to inflation but now instead of a generally all experiencing it there is pockets of areas that could happen to. Now note this does not make the market immune to price fluctuating, however it does make it so that no one has any real control on the market value on items. Remember any guild with enough people that pools enough money together can take over any prime or not so prime location and take in that spot. That being said there are naturally some spots where people don't often look at that are a city location.

I can say there are items that are far easier to just farm for than to buy from guild traders, and there are some items to be fairly honest is easier to just wait for someone to post in a zone chat than to farm for.

I think another factor that some or a lot of us can agree on is that bot accounts do also ruin the market value on items.

I can also think that another bad thing about guild traders is that it does not teach you how to actually make money outside of a guild trader at all.

I've talked to quite a bit of people that make their money somehow mainly from guild traders and I a person not in a guild that does not sell items to other players make far more money than they do. I don't understand it and I don't understand the need to stress oneself over making some insane amount of money.

I'm a filthy casual. I sell excess of what I farm for myself mostly. are you telling me that you are making half a million or more gold per week in a relatively short amount of time (I rarely just farm, I mostly just grab things as I quest or explore, unless its urns for furniture recipes, but even those don't take much time nowadays) without selling? what's your secret? because before I started trading my income was much lower, while requiring far more time investment from me.

(as to what that gold is used for, everyone has their own thing, I have a housing obsession, so that's what bulk of my gold goes to)

what exactly can you possibly do that generates as much gold as trading in a good location in the same amount of time? please, do share.

dedicated farming is time consuming and time spent farming = time not spent actualy playing.

There are spots to money farm and honestly during the halloween event no one was messing it up and I was able to participate in the halloween event as well.
I can explain as to the aspect of money farming. There are builds that when played certain ways can make you a lot of money but this can be mentally draining as it can be only certain builds. Those builds are those that can deal with highly condensed amount of groups of enemies. Templars can do this and I run as a Breton doing so, but I run in heavy armor. There is routines that you can do in crimson cove that net you a fair bit of money (about 5k in like 5-10 minutes or more) There is a sort of path and there is a lesser one which is not as good but is reserved for in case others mess it up but you can actually take it back over easily from a zerg. You would be running with a resto staff and destro but typically using resto and likely not a chance to use the destro because of how many enemies you are dealing with at a time. No real time for that. Skills to use are puncturing sweep for health maintain and radiant aura so you never run out of mag, ward ally is used so you always have one for the initial boot up to collecting enemies. I am fully willing to show people the run, you are getting I think 40 or 50 enemies. More enemies condensed in an area the better the loot drop and more money you get. the 5k was before selling to a merchant. That is just raw gold, never used prosperous set when it was out and was not affected by its removal. The first room of crimson cove is the better money farming spot, you start off not hitting center first, there is some huts on left side hit around there but don't worry about tunnel. about huts there is two groups there, you go from there and tag each enemy along the way counter clockwise but don't go to far or that hut area removes itself, you try as far as going to the other opposing side hut but the tunnel you see when you first enter that is to your right you pull those enemies, there is some loose stragglers behind that rock that is the center, those things are kinda hard to get grouped up with all the enemies but you have them all meet in the center. You are trying to get them all collectively collected together, if you can drop a shard on location but you don't want to kill them too quickly, the last ones to worry about are the ranged attackers but defilers are the most annoying because they can glitch your healing and prevent you from healing. There is a rock formation that you see when you first enter on the left side, just go up that rock formation and duck to wait for enemies to respawn, if enough people come in there enough they respawn fairly quickly.

so what you are saying is... I have to grind. and grind a LOT. no thank you.

Only when I am really hurting or in need. : 3

Rosveen · December 2017

Armatesz wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Because the more desirable store front run into the millions to maintain/keep from getting outbid. Or so I've been told.

I've been told the same thing and I have often wondered if this is true or just full of it. I have wondered if it was appropriate to inquire about it or what I actually am aiming to figure out from this discussion.

Nobody is going to tell you the exactly amount they bid, but those of us who are in the slightest bit involved in the trading system know the ballpark you can expect in the most desirable locations. Suffice to say, people aren't making it up when they talk about millions of gold spent on bids.

I know it can look suspicious to many players (and there probably have been some cases of scamming), but please don't dismiss the claims of experienced trading guild leaders if you don't have any evidence to prove they're lying. This isn't some grand conspiracy.

Armatesz · December 2017

Rosveen wrote: »

Armatesz wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Because the more desirable store front run into the millions to maintain/keep from getting outbid. Or so I've been told.

I've been told the same thing and I have often wondered if this is true or just full of it. I have wondered if it was appropriate to inquire about it or what I actually am aiming to figure out from this discussion.

Nobody is going to tell you the exactly amount they bid, but those of us who are in the slightest bit involved in the trading system know the ballpark you can expect in the most desirable locations. Suffice to say, people aren't making it up when they talk about millions of gold spent on bids.

I know it can look suspicious to many players (and there probably have been some cases of scamming), but please don't dismiss the claims of experienced trading guild leaders if you don't have any evidence to prove they're lying. This isn't some grand conspiracy.

I think people get mad because of transparency. It is like playing someone a fool. You don't like to be made fun of intellectually do you? Do you enjoy seeing others upset? It goes into that ballpark. There is no easy answer to this discussion but it is giving people of many sides something to think about. Where as to make money or just have fun and not worry too much. Just don't allow yourself to be too absorbed into it as it can be an overwhelming thing about the whole guild money thing.

code65536 · December 2017

I want to add that being in a trade guild is only necessary if you want to seriously play the economic game.

I play primarily on the PC/NA server, but I also log onto PC/EU each day and dabble a bit on EU.

I'm a millionaire on PC/EU. And I don't even belong to a trading guild on that server (well, okay, I joined a random trading guild a couple of days ago when someone sent me an unsolicited invite to one in a lower-tier location, but I've sold only 1-2K worth of items that I normally would've just vendored or deconned).

Every day, I would log into EU for about an hour. I'd do my writs. Do a random normal to use up my daily enlightenment (I loot everything--vendoring the trash from dungeons is easily a few thousand). And do a handful of dailies. If I get a duplicate motif from a daily, I'll try to trade it in zone chat for another motif, and if that doesn't work, I just stick it in my bank and forget about it. I've never sold anything of notable value to another player--I don't sell via zone chat, and I wasn't in a trade guild. When I get lucky and loot a big-ticket items like hundred-voucher writ or a CwC plan worth half a million, I just used them.

And for this hour of game play each day, I earn about 10K. All of it from the game's giant gold spigot--none of it from the player economy. And some days when I play for more than just an hour, I might get 20K or more. Just casual messing around on a foreign server.

Most people don't need a trade guild. I barely list anything in my NA trade guild--in most weeks, just 10-20K in sales, tops. Most of my gold come from outside the player-to-player economy--writs, thieving, vendoring, etc.--just like what I do on the EU server. Trade guilds are most useful to people who are more serious about playing the economic game--which is what I used to do a long time ago (it was genuinely fun, and it's how I made my first few million in this game and how I became a trade guild GM, which, in turn, sapped all my interest in playing the economic game, lol). But if you're not setting out to play the economic game, you'd be surprised at how well you can do without a trade guild.

dainswulf · December 2017

It's a cyclical monster created by the players themselves. The game developers intention was probably that guilds would only spend their house cut of 3.5% each week to reserve trading spots, and the more successful guilds would inherit the better spots for 1-200k.

But by paying out of pocket, and requiring guild dues, players themselves have raised those trader fees to exorbitant numbers.

So you have trading guilds in highly sought after spots, that raise a few hundred thousand gold in house fees, then potentially millions in dues/auctions/raffles. The players in these guild (ideally) offset their payments to the guild by selling at top prices.

Then you have 'wholesale' guilds, that are at cheaper traders, they tend to sell more in bulk at much lower prices, and often raise even more in house cuts, and pay a fraction of the cost for their trader spot or not have a trader at all and only sell internally.

Even further down the price chain, is the black market where players know make trades outside of guild stores for a real 'wholesale' price.

So, for example, I send a tell to a few people I know and buy 200 hundred temporing alloy at 5-6k ea, I can then either sell them in bulk in my wholesale guild for 6500-6700g and they'll be gone that day or in smaller amounts on a premier trading location and make as much as 7500g each and make 300k-500k profit per 200 sold.

Are the premier spot trading guilds pocketing money? Maybe, I've never been in a leadership role in any. But as long as I'm making money buy selling there then why do I care about paying 10k or so fees?

If I were a more casual trader selling maybe 50k or under a week, I wouldn't join a guild with fees that offset my profits by so much.

MLGProPlayer · December 2017

Guild dues are necessary to maintain good traders. On PC, you can either pay your guild fee or sell a certain amount. On consoles, you have to pay a fee since the guild has no way of checking player sales with add-ons.

I see people complaining all the time about guild dues in Rawl'kha and Mournhold guilds. Guess what cupcake? If you don't like it, you can go join a trade guild without guild dues. Except they won't have a trader in Rawl'kha or Mournhold. The trader will be in the middle of nowhere.

It costs tens of millions of gold to bid on a top guild trader.

MLGProPlayer · December 2017

duendology wrote: »

Having read this thread..honestly, I have no idea whom to believe....

I am in 5 guilds (PC/NA), two of them are strictly trading guilds in two major cities in the very good spots (next to wayshrine etc.) One requires a weekly fee (if you do not meet a weekly sale minimum), which I don't pay..apparently I meet the weekly minimum sale because I haven't been kicked out yet and my rank is still "trader" (if I get kicked out, I'll join another one). The other Guild does not require any fee whatsoever and, interestingly enough, stuff sells there faster than in the one where the fee is mandatory.

From the very beginning this whole system has been, hmm , a little too murky for me.. for one reason.. If a guild wants money in order to stay "afloat" (through so called "donations" and mandatory "fees)..as it's stated by many GMs here, fair enough.. but make your weekly guild money flow aka accounting transparent to people whom you take money from or who graciously donate to your guild.. If all is hidden from your guild members.. then sorry, you get no money from me and I'll seek other guild.

You'll need to specificity what a "very good spot" is.

The only trader locations that require high sales volume/guild dues are Rawl'kha, Mournhold, Wayrest, and Elden Root. Vivec City and Belkarth might require a small fee.

Other locations can get by with no fee because there is minimal competition for those traders.