Why Do Guild Dues Exist?

LadyLethalla

There's one PS4 EU player who unfortunately must remain nameless - owner of quite a number of guilds - and whom everyone thinks skims money off the top... have also heard this person is the reason gold mats are a higher price on our server than on any other.

Edit: also, I would rather be in a guild in which I have to pay 5k per week, than to meet a minimum sales target. Some weeks I don't have time or can't be bothered to list items - especially seeing how us poor console plebs don't have any add on for it.

Narvuntien

My trade guild technically has 1k dues but its paid in raffle tickets so every now and then you get all your money back. Reasonably good trade location.

I really like it here and i pay way more than mandatory. In fact i pour in all my sales mon-friday and keep all my weekend sales. So unlike dues systems i pay more when i sell more. All volitary of course but i remember the tough times and appriecate having a guildstore everyweek.

My guildmisteress is clearly making a ton of money (which she spends on her amazing house) but I am making a ton of money despite all that i pour into the guild. I spend 30k on the guild then make an additional 15k... thats still more gold than i had last week!

This thread just seems like an extention of USA national tax phobia. The man (guild) is wasting my hard earned money!

What is the in game gold even for? It is so easy to get way more than you'll ever need for gear purposes (since its mostly BoP sets anyway). Homestead is a HUGE gold sink but its all a vanity project. You can build towards it slowly. Mofits aren't particular useful although crafted sets are popular.

To make gold trading you have to be a trader. Its just another way to "win" the game. If you are a casual and open some sweet loot you don't have use for... you can sell it in zone chat or to your traderless PVE guild, someone might want it.

Linaleah

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I have never, ever been in a guild with dues, and I've been in guilds with traders in all the big spots.

At the moment I'm in trade guilds in Belkarth and Mournhold, decent locations, zero dues.

Oh well at least some ethical guilds still exist. I own eso on pc and Xbox. On Xbox all I see is guild dues of 6k-10k. Currently I am guildless because the requirements are too high for a casual player like me.

here is the thing. on PC, we have addons that help track sales, or in other words - taxes paid to the guild. neither of the guilds I'm in on PC have dues, one has minimum sales, the other techincaly doesn't but practically you are strongly encouraged to be active and/or participate in raffles. I don't mind because trading via that guild allowed me to buy multiple houses AND I like the people in it.

however. on console, it is impossible to track individual sales. so instead, there are dues to cover the costs of a trader.

what I have also found, in most cases - guilds that don't require dues or minimum sales, tend to have few top sellers essentially covering the bills for everyone else ( we are talking taxes alone cover well above those minimum dues, plus they tend to also donate to the guild. a LOT) and while its their choice to do so, I also totally get it when they ask at least for a minimum contributions.

now. I do hate it that the only way to trade reliably in this game is to be in a trading guild. frankly - it sucks. the reason why wow doesn't have dues is because you don't need a guild to trade or do anything really, between global auction house and groupfinder with its custom grouping tools, the only reason to be in a guild that is not just a vanity shell (which is what I personaly have in that game) is because you want to. but.. in this game? you need a guild. and the guild needs, literally needs steady influx of gold to continue providing means for you to trade effectively. it doesn't have much to do with ethics and everything to do with math.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Blanco wrote: »

It's just a way to take advantage of members. None of the guilds that ask for dues actually need them to keep their trader or to keep the guild running. It's just a form extortion really , oftentimes for the benefit of RL $$.

This is such BS...^^^^

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

People that know nothing about running a trade guild should keep their mouth shut and stop saying it's greed and nothing more. You try taking a trader in the middle of Mournhold without MILLIONS of gold.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

The reason dues are required for massive trader guilds is just so they can continue to function. You can VERY easily make your weekly deposit back and then some by selling even one item in the store for over 5k or whatever your due is, then everything after that is straight profit..

Totally agree....^^^^
Lets break this down shall we? Lets take a guild that has NO dues, requirements, etc.. They have a trader in Mournhold..
It takes 5-7 million gold a week for a spot.
Guild makes 3.5% tax on sales off trader.
Said guild would have to sell 142,857,143g in sales a week to keep the trader at 3.5% tax.

Enough said. Any one who says guilds that charge dues are just so the GM's can get rich has never run a guild.
Granted, I have 2 large trade guilds and a mid size trade guild. Non have mandatory dues, but the guildies are more than happy to donate on their own, have raffles, have auctions, what ever it takes to make enough to keep our trader.

Plan on starting your own trade guild? Plan on using up to a million+ a month in gold of YOUR own gold to support it!
Huzzah!!

Taleof2Cities

I'm in two (2) trade guilds that don't have dues ... one is in a capital city and the other is in a zone city.

If you're in a guild that requires dues then find another guild that doesn't.

It's as simple as that ...

Betsararie

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I'm in two (2) trade guilds that don't have dues ... one is in a capital city and the other is in a zone city.

If you're in a guild that requires dues then find another guild that doesn't.

It's as simple as that ...

Well put.

As members of the guilds.... we have to stand up against the SCAMMERS who feel it okay to force their members to give them gold .

sylviermoone

Linaleah wrote: »

here is the thing. on PC, we have addons that help track sales, or in other words - taxes paid to the guild. neither of the guilds I'm in on PC have dues, one has minimum sales, the other techincaly doesn't but practically you are strongly encouraged to be active and/or participate in raffles. I don't mind because trading via that guild allowed me to buy multiple houses AND I like the people in it.

however. on console, it is impossible to track individual sales. so instead, there are dues to cover the costs of a trader.

This right here. Thanks to Master Merchant and a handful of other addons, it is easy to track member's sales through the guild store, thus setting a minimum sales requirement is easy. Trying to track that on console or without addons? NO FREAKING WAY. I can completely understand why trade guilds on console go the dues route.

Be it dues, minimum sales, inactivity, or something else, most trade guilds have requirements. In one top-tier city on PC/NA you have one guild that requires 400k+ weekly in sales, another that requires 1k in raffle deposits OR 15k in sales, and yet another that has no minimums, just an inactivity policy, though members are HIGHLY ENCOURAGED to participate in raffles and auctions. As a GM, I have no wish to extort my members. I only wish to make competitive bids on our preferred trading location so that they can sell their hearts out. I make nothing from my guild, and give much of what I have to my guild. I ask that my members support our community, too.

Minyassa

So basically the answer is "because people pay them." You see how many people think this is normal, when there are also plenty of no-dues guilds with decent trader locations. So it's pretty much that enough people think it's okay and are willing to pay it. If people stopped joining guilds with high dues, they'd die out.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Can someone explain to me how a guild could consistently get a prime trader stall without charging any dues? I highly doubt they could maintain it through donations alone.

Blacknight841

This is not one of those questions with a simple answer, as there are a lot of factors that play into it. I have been a GM on the pc where i started and continue to run trade guilds on the xb1.

First pc and console have two very different systems. On the pc you can get add on that track the amount of sales that a person gets, so if a person is not selling anything, you can track this remove them if they are inactive. However on the console this is not something you can do easily. i do not have the time to record every transaction by hand to see how much an individual member is selling in the trader, or if they are selling at all. i would have to record hundreds of pages of sales history. However if on the xbox you have each member donate gold to the guild bank, well then at least for that week you can see that they were active, and contributed to the trader cost.

Second there are sales taxes or "house cut". The house cut is 7% of what the item sell at, HOWEVER only half of that goes to the guild. The other half is a gold sink.

Third, it really depends on how the guild is run. I have my guild bank open in all my guilds. I do not hide gold and you can see the withdrawals in the guild history. I may move gold from one guild to another, but i have no need to move gold to my own personal pocket for my own personal gain. I can sell just as well as any member. Some guild are run differently, but to each their own. I prefer to keep my guild and personal wealth separated. i do use guild funds for things, such as a guild house with all attainable stations, but even that i covered half of the stations from my own pocket, on top the mundus stones i bought for the guild.

Fourth, there are the uses of the guild gold to consider. The only thing you need the gold for as a guild is to change your tabard, or to bid. If you are not in a trading guild that needs to bid on a trader weekly. Then i see no point in dues.

Lastly, the reason for the dues. Lets say you are in a guild with 100 members, and in a week you sell 10 listings and all items are on a trader for an average 10k each, (low but it will keep the numbers simple.) that means in a week each member made 300k. and each member made the guild 3,500 in taxes for each member. now if you consider all 100 members, that is 350k total for the guild bank without dues. Now you have to throw your bid, and you throw 350k, you get the trader and you are back to 0 for the next week. If you have one member who sells 10 listings out of his 5 guilds at the same amount, he will have made 465k after taxes. if he has a pvp guild that doesn't regularly have a trader, he can go ahead and use all his gold, dump it into the guild bank because he doesn't need the gold personally, and buy a guild trader for the week for his guild. Now the guild that has been bidding 350k for his trading guild, has to figure out a way to make up the remaining 115k. if the Gm wants to donate the amount they can compete with someone who wants to buy a trader for himself. HOWEVER if that guild starts charging 10k for the 100 members, now you have the guild pulling in the 350k, plus the 1m for the dues. at 1,350,000 that is a much more of a waste for an individual to buy a trader for their guild that doesn't necessary sell from a trader on a regular basis. This gives trading guilds with consistent members and consistent trader the ability to keep doing that for their members.

Ultimately, how your guild uses the gold is up to them, and its your decision to go with a guild that fits your needs. There are lot of great traders on xbox, some with hidden banks, some without. In the end, the only thing that matters is if you got what you wanted out of the guild or not. When you hav eso pay your taxes to the government most people don't sit there and think about how the government spent their tax dollars efficiently or not, and even if they do, not much can be done, except move to a different country.

Bonus: Doing all 6 max level writs once a week gives you 4k gold. Doing them 7 days a week gives you 28k gold per week, per character. Even if all you do are the provisioning, and alchemy writs, which can be precrafted and done within 15 seconds, you can still make 9.3k without taking more time out of your day than it takes a person to mail an item to someone else. It is very easy to make 10k in a week to cover a guild fee.

Taleof2Cities

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how a guild could consistently get a prime trader stall without charging any dues? I highly doubt they could maintain it through donations alone.

Find a guild that doesn’t charge dues and see for yourself ...

LadyDestiny

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

This concept of guild dues is new to me. I honestly think guild dues paint the community of ESO in a bad light and it deters casual players from a good trading experience.

Not even elite guilds in wow have guild dues except for skill requirements. This monthly/weekly Guild Dues for being in a guild just showcases the greed in the community and prevents casual players from the full guild store experience. So what is the cause for the influx of distasteful greed known as guild dues that average a cost of 6k weekly just to be in a guild?

Unfortunately for big trading guilds we have to pay dues. If Zeni would let us function with a regular global auction house, we wouldn't have to throw money in the toilet. Plain and simple......

Slick_007

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I have never, ever been in a guild with dues, and I've been in guilds with traders in all the big spots.

At the moment I'm in trade guilds in Belkarth and Mournhold, decent locations, zero dues.

if your guild can sell enough high priced items to keep paying for the trader thats one thing. but if your sales suddenly dipped...

the guild im in doesnt have dues. we have a raffle. its optional. but it goes to paying the trader.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how a guild could consistently get a prime trader stall without charging any dues? I highly doubt they could maintain it through donations alone.

Find a guild that doesn’t charge dues and see for yourself ...

So you don't know then?

Armatesz

Something I have thought of about but this discussion has brought some things to my mind about but there are things I don't hear about is how unstable the market is. No one has any true control of prices for things, no guild has any true control of it. If anyone thinks they do then they are a liar and are in denial. But the thing I am wondering about is the guilds that try to tell people that something has to be of a certain value, you put it as that but then you realize that you have it in the guild traders for 3 months and it never sells... like it never does. However I look at it is differently, guild stores can be a way to help people get something they might need but at times I am at odds with it because the time to look at it and put something for sale is not worth it, I can money farm better than worrying about items to sell for guild traders. Same thing about making crafted sets for others I would be doing it just to help others but the amount I would be given I typically would not ask money for. I would do it just to do it for others. Some things I would like to know is how do you all feel that guild traders contribute to the game or your own enjoyment, do you feel that you get so obsessed with making money in the game that you don't enjoy the game anymore? Do you rather go lonewolf and just enjoy the game at your own pace without being in a guild?

Bhaal5

Guild dues are there for the really badly implented guild trader system zenimax was persistent on having over a global market system every other successful mmo has.

Runs

Not sure if it has been said, but trade guilds on console have dues because console doesn't have the ability to have addons like PC does. On PC guild leaders and officers can see who is selling how much on a weekly basis and enforce a minimum sales amount. That ability just isn't there for console, so dues are the only real option to make sure everyone is pulling their weight towards trader cost.

Armatesz

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Guild dues are there for the really badly implented guild trader system zenimax was persistent on having over a global market system every other successful mmo has.

I think they want us to explore more...

Bhaal5

Armatesz wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Guild dues are there for the really badly implented guild trader system zenimax was persistent on having over a global market system every other successful mmo has.

I think they want us to explore more...

Yeah i even think that was stated in the original advertisement before beta was released. But in saying that a system you cant actually "search" for what you want by name, auto fill is only a thing after how many years, and not to mention the load screens when trying to go to these zones.
Think they should of just stuck with the trialed and tested global market like everyone else

eco_TR

1- player gets/loots items
2- player wants to sell these items to get gold, in order to use for another purpose

• can prefer to sell in zone (might take ages and costs a lot of effort / no guild fee cost)
• can prefer to sell in guild (several advantages, easy, quick / has a guild fee cost)

3- if prefers the guild option, guild trader has a huge amount of cost which GM can't afford alone
4- player has to contribute to this cost, else there will be no trader > no sale > no player income

Shortly, this. If you don't want to spent more time, no need to read the rest.


We want to trade our items to gain gold and to buy the stuff we need. Guilds are the best and most efficient place for this purpose. There are many guilds in the game, whereas there are very with limited number of spots available to present our goods to the market. So there is a big competition. To win this competition, guild has to be powerful, and must have more gold than other guilds, because it is an auction to get the trader.

Meanwhile, there is another point which actually is not the reason, but in the end is tied to the point.
We all spent our time and effort in Tamriel and we produce. Thanks to the endless resources provided to us by the game. And then we sell all these materials to someone or to the NPC and we convert *nothing* to gold. There is a huge creation of gold by all of us, where very little of that gold goes out of the game (buying from NPCs, etc...) and majority is happening all through the guild stores. The gold has to be sucked out of the game.

I believe the guild trader bids and the tax cuts on the guild sales are used as the main tool for this operation, along with the houses and furnishing trader NPC's where people spend most gold to a non player, where the gold disappears.

In my opinion it is the natural outcome of the game economics. I see it as the tax payment in advance for your "possible" income, which actually have to happen by some means.

Taleof2Cities

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how a guild could consistently get a prime trader stall without charging any dues? I highly doubt they could maintain it through donations alone.

Find a guild that doesn’t charge dues and see for yourself ...

So you don't know then?

I’m in two of them ... so I know.

Buffler

Some serious mis-information on this thread. Im on xbox eu, run 3 of the biggest trade guilds on the server....all 3 based permanently in Mournhold (xbox eu busiest spot by far) bids cost more than we bring in in sales taxes most of the time but generous donations (entirely voluntary) help us get our spots week after week. I know all other trade guild gm's and there is not 1 trade guild on our server that charges weekly dues. Infact, we all agreed we never will.

Saying that, I can understand why guilds do on other servers as the best spots cost a fortune and I, like many other gm's have used a lot of our own gold to secure spots in the past, and will in the future.

Silver_Strider

Because the guild store idea in this game is flawed to all hell and some guilds feel the need to tax members in order to get a Trader. I hate Guild Traders with a passion, as it feels like the only way to get your crap to sell is either join one of these extortion guilds or to spam chat with items for hours and hope someone is interested, all the while being a nuisance to others because of your spam.

All I want is a single general trader that everyone can use. If they want to keep their guild store option, fine but at least let there be an option for people that either can't afford to get a trader on a regular basis.

laksikus

Blanco wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I'm in two (2) trade guilds that don't have dues ... one is in a capital city and the other is in a zone city.

If you're in a guild that requires dues then find another guild that doesn't.

It's as simple as that ...

Well put.

As members of the guilds.... we have to stand up against the SCAMMERS who feel it okay to force their members to give them gold .

Are you on PC?
If yes its a different matter than console. Where GM dont have fancy addons that show who is selling what

Prof_Bawbag

My own personal opinion is large trading guilds do deserve a weekly due from myself. The guild leaders do all the laborious stuff whilst I get to make money doing semi enjoyable stuff at worse.

I don't pretend to talk on behalf of others, but whilst I don't get along with some guild leaders and had differences with the likes of @Anne13 , I still do appreciate the work that they do for us plebs as I've accumulated millions from being in their guilds in the past. I think a lot of people think GM's rake in millions and pocket it all for little or no effort. That's simply not true in most cases.

RobbieRocket

I play on PS4 EU. I am a GM with a fair amount of experience with both the game and guilds. I have been a part of minor alternative guilds, veteran trials guilds, Cyrodiil guilds and large trading guilds, for example.

The bids on the top 3-5 Traders is around 8 million per week, the bids on the next 20-30 Traders goes from 1 million to 4 million. Anyone can get lucky and acquire one of those for 10k but not consistently.

Sales from Store earn the Guild 3.5%. The charge for listing is 7% but somehow half of that is lost to the void.

So a guild would have to sell for 100,000,000 (100 million) coin to have enough for a 3.5 million Trader without any fees or donations.

My Guild is active, partly a Trader Guild (it has PvE, PvP, trade and social). We have a Trader regularly in Daggerfall, sometimes in one of the 3 capitals or Belkarth. Once in a while we fail to secure a Trader.
We charge nothing so people can trade and list without donations, though there is a lot of incentive to contribute as people feel the goodwill of the help, events and support in our guild. Plus there are ranking incentives too (though members can achieve those through claims in Cyrodiil and recruiting).

We rely on donations for our Traders, we ask for nothing but average 2-3k per member, per week. Most Trader Guilds ask for 5k per week. My impression (apart from a few, and I know who they are) is that Trader Guilds are using their money on Traders only.

Prof_Bawbag

Blanco wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I'm in two (2) trade guilds that don't have dues ... one is in a capital city and the other is in a zone city.

If you're in a guild that requires dues then find another guild that doesn't.

It's as simple as that ...

Well put.

As members of the guilds.... we have to stand up against the SCAMMERS who feel it okay to force their members to give them gold .

What a load of dramatic-esque nonsense. You say that like you're talking about traders on all platforms. How can any guild be scamming you if you're free to join or leave any guild you want, when you want? No one is forcing anyone. You don't want to pay, you leave. It's not as if we're locked into guilds for X amount of time. I wonder if half the people who spout this dramatic nonsense would be willing to devote their own time and effort to providing a successful guild (especially on consoles) free of charge rather than sit there and bang their gums about others who are willing to make selling our gear a breeze. Sure beats spamming chat with 100 items over and over.

DPShiro

Buffler wrote: »

Some serious mis-information on this thread. Im on xbox eu, run 3 of the biggest trade guilds on the server....all 3 based permanently in Mournhold (xbox eu busiest spot by far) bids cost more than we bring in in sales taxes most of the time but generous donations (entirely voluntary) help us get our spots week after week. I know all other trade guild gm's and there is not 1 trade guild on our server that charges weekly dues. Infact, we all agreed we never will.

Saying that, I can understand why guilds do on other servers as the best spots cost a fortune and I, like many other gm's have used a lot of our own gold to secure spots in the past, and will in the future.

Berky or Dowie?

tommalmm

I've been in many trading guilds on both PC and PS4. There were either weekly sales or a small fee required to stay. If you're active a few hours per week, then you can meet the minima in 90% of the guilds. There is only a few that require you to sell 100-300k per week. Most guilds in good places require 10-30k. The weekly dues (in most cases I've seen 1-5k) are mostly reserved for players that can't sell enough but don't want to be kicked. Many good guilds do not even allow that...

Beardimus

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

This concept of guild dues is new to me. I honestly think guild dues paint the community of ESO in a bad light and it deters casual players from a good trading experience.

Not even elite guilds in wow have guild dues except for skill requirements. This monthly/weekly Guild Dues for being in a guild just showcases the greed in the community and prevents casual players from the full guild store experience. So what is the cause for the influx of distasteful greed known as guild dues that average a cost of 6k weekly just to be in a guild?

The more interesting thing @Brittany_Joy is that this is an NA thing on the whole.

Xbox EU top trading guilds have none. Donations appreciated is all. So perhaps a gaming culture thing.