Bladerunner1 wrote: »

* Let the crusher enchant spread across a large AOE circle.

* One completely free swappable Respec slot - not just to save equipment, but to save the distribution of stats and CPs. Who isn't tired of spending 6500 gold and replacing hundreds of incremental stats one click at a time just to do a different role?

* More buff / debuff sets like Livewire

* Add an AOE debuff effect to taunts

danno8 wrote: »

In addition, DPS'ing in groups is easier and requires less situational awareness and responsibility than the tank and healer.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

To be honest the basic problem is that, as has been stated, there is no reason to have a tank, for a great majority of the game content. Even soloing world bosses doesnt really involve tanking, just being able to take the heavy damage sometimes; which isnt quite the same thing. Switch in something like Whitestrake on your DPS and youre good to go.

Overland - no. Normal dungeons - not really, a good DPS with a taunt is usually more than enough. Vet dungeons - yeah ok, but
even a place like Falkreath is more about understanding of boss mechanics and attack patterns, than massive damage tanking. I think 2 'semitanks' rather than tank+DD might well complete that content, it´s just a few really heavy attacks that you need enough stats to block. The problem when I play normal Bloodroot forge isnt the tanking, it is getting people to be aware that they need to interrupt the minotaur prison when it is put on another player, and not to stand on the large rock island when they boss does his massive AoE.

I havent done support tanking for 12-man raids that much, but that is the one place I guess you sometimes really need a tank. So there´s that, Im not qualified to comment on vet content there.

I dont think tanking really needs to be encouraged with something like XP boosts. Those of us who dabble in tanking I think mostly understand that it´s just a few places where you are needed. Giving people extra XP would just invite faketanking IMO; tanking is already 'encouraged' in that I, for example, have a tanking bar on my stamina characters for easy random normal daily queueing.

You want to encourage tanking, create more game content where tanking mechanics are useful.

The free respec idea was nice though. Though thinking about it you can probably tank pretty much everything on a medium armor DD without respec if you also have the skillpoints invested in tanking and a full heavy armor alternate outfit banked.

Vhozek wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

The issue I see with that is then people would make their health higher than their other stats for leveling up new characters, then they'd re-spec the stats after they reached maximum level. Then again, that sounds awesome 'cause then I can level a new character faster. LOL.

More HP at the cost of damage and resources. They'll just feel like tankier non CP characters. Or people can kick them out since DPS are easily replaced. DPS and healers are in desperate need of tanks in queue, so I doubt they would sacrifice their own stats just to get extra EXP AND be the source of a queue/role problem they complain so much about today.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Remove all the caps and ceilings from tanking and healing(PvP only I think) and you are going to see way more pure tanks and healers.

Remove the 50% dmg mitigation max (for soft caps instead?) and you'll see way more people going for tanking up to 40k + resistances - a nice AoE taunt would be really awesome too...

As it is, tanking is a resource battle against your own players. Because you cant mitigate too much dmg you have to block, interrupt, and TAUNT (because your dmg wont be that high). And then you can do some crowd control. All of which are generally resource costly. But then you have people pulling with frost, others not interrupting when they can (theyd lose precious dps), etc... I find the resource management game much more important on tanks than anything else, and thats partly because mitigation is capped and minor/major system is not defensively freindly. All that is not freindly to new players, definitly not enjoyable for most in PvP, etc.... So rolling a tank is not attractive for most.

I'm not a great tank by far, but I get by ok. Most of the time when people ask me my build or ask about tanking, I find they expect all of a sudden being dependant on others (not true). Not being able to kill anything (5k - dps) or worse and they dont want to spend 3 hours killing mobs alone.

There is no mitigation max or cap, there is resistance cap, but that is an entirely different thing. I would suggest you read this thread and you will see how incredibly easy it is for a Tank to get really really high total damage mitigation and why removing the resistance cap would not make a huge difference at all, and how overrated resistance is to PvE Tanking.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

Also while resource management is a big deal for Tanks its not as bad as you make it seem, people just need to learn to drop block to heavy attack as well they need to learn to build for those kind of scenarios. And please, there are so many reason for us not to have an AoE taunt, it will not help the tanking population, it would dwindle it.

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Remove all the caps and ceilings from tanking and healing(PvP only I think) and you are going to see way more pure tanks and healers.

Remove the 50% dmg mitigation max (for soft caps instead?) and you'll see way more people going for tanking up to 40k + resistances - a nice AoE taunt would be really awesome too...

As it is, tanking is a resource battle against your own players. Because you cant mitigate too much dmg you have to block, interrupt, and TAUNT (because your dmg wont be that high). And then you can do some crowd control. All of which are generally resource costly. But then you have people pulling with frost, others not interrupting when they can (theyd lose precious dps), etc... I find the resource management game much more important on tanks than anything else, and thats partly because mitigation is capped and minor/major system is not defensively freindly. All that is not freindly to new players, definitly not enjoyable for most in PvP, etc.... So rolling a tank is not attractive for most.

I'm not a great tank by far, but I get by ok. Most of the time when people ask me my build or ask about tanking, I find they expect all of a sudden being dependant on others (not true). Not being able to kill anything (5k - dps) or worse and they dont want to spend 3 hours killing mobs alone.

There is no mitigation max or cap, there is resistance cap, but that is an entirely different thing. I would suggest you read this thread and you will see how incredibly easy it is for a Tank to get really really high total damage mitigation and why removing the resistance cap would not make a huge difference at all, and how overrated resistance is to PvE Tanking.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

Also while resource management is a big deal for Tanks its not as bad as you make it seem, people just need to learn to drop block to heavy attack as well they need to learn to build for those kind of scenarios. And please, there are so many reason for us not to have an AoE taunt, it will not help the tanking population, it would dwindle it.

*eye roll* I mitigate around 85%+ probably could mitigate a bit more,

I should have specified mitigation FROM resistances, which is the second most important source of mitigation (after block) if not (arguably) the most important one, and the most straightforward one to any new player.

From a resources point of view the single most important mitigation source is resistances. You can't block ticks and not everything works vs AoEs.
Damage sheilds don't count as mitigation, you are absorbing // avoiding dmg, not mitigating it not to mention all the counters. The DPS can use dmg shields just as effectively and in some cases more so. On top of that you could make a point arguing that damage shields are one of the reasons people don't bother rolling tanks.

I didnt say an AoE taunt is needed I said it would be nice. Thats a personal opinion.
You thinking I make resources management bad is your own opinion, I personally think we both see it the same way.

Major Ward and Resolve and fully gold armor and shield is all the resistance you will ever need. Stacking resistance with armor sets and or traits is overrated, resistance is by far not the most important source of mitigation, its strong yes, but not THE most important that is block and the passives that only work while blocking.

Thus the word 'arguably' because it can be argued. I could say in some situations you can't block. I could say, you can run out of stam, you can start getting hit by dots at the wrong time, I could say you're in an AoE and need to dodge some mechanic, etc.... Just because it comes after blocking doesnt all of a sudden make it unimportant. And the whole point of what I posted was removing the fact you cap at 33k res. So major ward/resolve and gold gear would NOT be all you ever need - and chances are youd be able to use a much larger pool of sets to be effective because you wouldnt need to rely necessarily on their effects. It would allow the current style of tanking as well as newer perhaps more newbie ways by stacking more res. Either way, it would make tanking both more attractive and accessible - which is my whole point - that you are welcome to have argued, but I feel you got stuck on the actual meta and where res stands in it and saying there is no point in doing so, rather than the 'what can we do to make tanking more attractive' subject at hand.

Say what you will, perhaps at the cost of balance, but tanking was MUCH more enjoyable and popular back in the first year with soft caps.

josiahva wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

The main problem is that just questing as a tank is basically impossible chore. So people make dps quest and skyshard hunt and then turn a character into a tank when they need them. So for the most part everyone has a DPS until they reach full build.

It is a dreadful chore. I hate it.

The solution is easy. Do what I do on my tank, I use one crafted/one drop DPS set(all gold) that I keep in my inventory...then use an add-on that swaps gear and skills with the press of a button so I can swap between tank gear/skills and DPS gear/skills with one key. Now, a tank wearing DPS gear does not a true DPS make, but I can still pull a respectable 25k single target DPS in DPS gear, which is more than enough for questing or for those dungeons like DCII that don't require a tank.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Long winded post, but...

ZoS needs to take a hard look at not just tanking, but themselves in order to help tanking IMO.

Just to say where I'm coming from game wise: I tank trials (vet, HMs), dungeons, I've run tanky pvp builds, etc. So I feel like it's all do-able as is, but most of my comments will come from a place of making it more balanced and enjoyable, not just do-able for me or a small % of tanks/builds.

What I mean when I say ZoS needs to look at themselves: They seem to make changes sometimes as if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

For Example: Changes have been made (some for sake of PvP) about permablocking and more closely - regen of stam while blocking. We know this wasn't just about pvp, or they could have added a no regen while blocking tag to battle spirit. I've seen mention from devs that they want to encourage more active play in the tanking position. Where as the other side that is making content doesn't take these changes into consideration and creates multiple scenarios in high end content, where you can't drop block consistently to regen or do heavy attacks. And swapping back and forth between ice staff blocking and standard blocking doesn't work as well because the rate you can get both your regens to tick (even in a build for it) while you use the other to block doesn't sync up, that's not even taking into consideration using any of those resources to taunt or use other skills.

Again, I'm talking the hard, end game content, not basic vet dungeons - most differences I'm talking about you'll only see when tanking with different classes on the newest vet HM dungeons and HM vet trials.

What it comes down to is this: Every class needs to be able to regen stam in some fashion while blocking, as long as they are working for it in some way besides the hour long heavy attack. This is a key reason that DK is so good for tanking - the stam return from using earthen and the resource return from using your ulti. The only other classes that offer something similar is Warden (if you run the stam morph of netch and the return is nearly worthless in that situaiton) and Sorc might be able to squeeze in Dark Exchanges in some situations. ZoS might read: DK is too strong then, but no - it's not that tanking is so OP on DK for this reason, it's that is it bearable and enjoyable vs using other classes (I've tried it on many classes, it's all do-able, but that's not what this is about). To me it allows me to be more active as a tank, using abilities and doing other things besides holding block and wondering whether my concern over resources is bigger than my concern over holding aggro.

Possible Solutions: DK's are fine as they are IMO, don't need any help here.

Templars - one morph of their little templar house circle they put down should have a stam return on it. Not a stam regen buff, but a flat return like the netch does for Warden (except maybe a bit higher since it actually costs resources to use).

Warden - in a pretty good spot too, but the netch is a bit weak for this use. Could look at making the netch have a magicka cost and give an upfront burst of stam before it's smaller tick kicks in.

Sorcs - they are in an OK spot with Dark exchange, but it's a bit hit or miss depending on the fight. The fact it gives a heal back as well might swing this into at least being worth the hassle.

NBs - the worst thing they did was start tinkering with siphoning strikes coming from a NB tank perspective (not so much saying it's bad for DPS, just talking from tank standpoint here). It used to be the thing that made it worthwhile to deal with the harder single target boss fights where you'll get less return to at least be awesome at dealing with waves of mobs before the boss fights.

In the end it all comes down to all classes being able to have fun with all roles. If players that are already being challenged with a new role or new content can't even use the class they actually enjoy playing, then it's going to limit the amount of tanks in the game period. Not even counting people not willing to tank because they just don't like that sort of role.

Other issues that dent other classes: No way to group mobs up as efficiently as a DK (chains) the warden pull comes close and it's good enough for them, but other classes are left hanging. You can use Swarm Mother, but that prevents you from running any other set for all of those classes. There is also no other Talons type skill past encase on a sorc.

I really wish the Undaunted line had been used to flesh out dungeon roles since that's what the Undaunted are all about. They could have added some sort of pull ability for any class to access, they could have used something like the webs to create a sort of talon's like snare that's use-able by everyone, etc. They already have managed to give every class a shield w/ bone shield (though there should be a magic morph) and 'shards/heal' with Orb. They could have used this line to bridge that role gap with other classes. And you could make them all synergy dependent to be strong like seems to be another goal of the Undaunted line - teamwork theme: Maybe the webs just create a snare, but when synergized actually stick mobs in place while like a hard CC for example. I'd have also added passives in this line to convert an ice staff into a tanking item instead of taking away the ability of ice staves to be usable as DPS weapons.

The other issue I'll lay at ZoS' feet is that they have a bad habit of nerfing something to try a fix, then seeing it doesn't work and nerfing something else and never looking at what was originally nerfed. Take for instance Black Rose - it went from being a bit strong so several people were giving it a try so it seemed to be the issue, but it wasn't the issue, so: then ZoS nerfed the constitution passive when everyone noticed it wasn't just Black Rose and never reverted the changes to Black Rose, so now it's technically double nerfed and virtually useless. If someone wants to dedicate a five piece set bonus to boosting that nerfed passive, they should correct this and allow it since the passive itself got nerfed. There are already sets that give better flat regen bonuses than this in the game - fix it. Might help in some of the areas mentioned above to balance things out for some builds.

The last thing on them is to take a look at content design. If you are going to continually add a bunch of one-shot mechanics that already have to be blocked (so you can't drop block in some situations at all and sometimes barely weapon swap) and you are going to give them to multiple mobs so that a tank has to pull aggro on more than just one boss or a couple mobs, then you need to look at what you are giving tanks to work with not just for blocking but resource wise.

Just to look at it from PvP side: Some of the changes to being tanky have been OK in PvP, some haven't mattered much at all, but mostly they changes haven't directly addressed the problems, they just chipped at it a little. Usually the builds that are bad for tanks in PvP are niche, you can look at that player, whose fighting them, what they are wearing, etc. and tell it's a combination of things and not just this class is broken or that skill is broken (usually). Those things should be addressed specifically and not just with blanket nerfs to passives or classes. The other side of the coin in PvP are that tanks should be allowed to be tanks, but they should be able to be super tanky and suddenly burst someone down, but if someone is just hard to kill and just stands there holding block, so what. Let them, focus them down after they watch their friends die, etc. But most of the fixes I've seen come to address the tanky builds in PvP have never fixed them, only hurt tanking in general.

Before random people pop up with I have this X class build, I'm sure there are several high end players out there that have tanks in various classes and pull off all content. Great, me too. I'm looking at the differences in the classes though and that some have an easier time of doing the basic job than others while still providing more for the team and frankly, there are major differences and problems between classes for the tanking role.


Past all this, it's just on the player. Maybe people just don't like support roles, you can't make them or make them feel penalized for not liking them (they probably already feel that way just trying to queue for dungeons as dps). There is also a tendency to have more pressure on your shoulders as a tank or healer (some rightly so, some not so much) and that's going to turn some off. I will say some of the best DPS players I've run with have also done a bit of tanking and healing and know what goes down on the other side and handle fights better, so it's worth a try to all, even if you don't want to do it full time.

This is a great post @xaraan and it encapsulates a lot of my problems with changes made in the game. You said everything very even-handed as well. I would really love it if developers could read this entire post of yours.