[Vid] Why CP in Battlegrounds is a Terrible Idea and Why You Should Care!

Taylor_MB · October 2017

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I gotta respect the fact that you took time to actually explain what the issue is with CP+tanking in pvp. The few other people who would post on here about CP in BGs being an issue give no explanations or anything. Just complaining.

Thanks for the feedback, greatly appreciated!

runagate wrote: »

Also, your mustache has reversed my menopause and I find myself suddenly fertile once again after all these years.

*bows humbly* I have never received a higher honour.

Dubhliam · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're right. But ZoS is probably doing this to try and make BGs more popular.

It's easier to add CP than to make a meaningful leaderboard, rewards players will want to progress towards, a robust matchmaker system, etc.

This is probably the true reason for adding CPs.

They see a drastic decline in BG population, and they would rather change it to CP enabled, even though the players tell them it's a big mistake.

I mean, what other option they have to increase BG population?

Make it free for everyone?
Pfffft.

But, hey! When they see CP enabled won't make them more popular, they just might revert to no CP after 3 months and make them base game.
MAYBE.

Mannix1958 · October 2017

Pop locked with a wait time is pop locked with a wait time. They cant get more populated than that. [/quote]

Like when I try to enter Vivec...oh wait that doesn't fit your argument does it...

Grabmoore · October 2017

Chelo wrote: »

Been playing since close beta and I want to be able to use all my unlocks in BGs. An advice to all the new players out there, if you want to be competitive in an MMO, less whining and more farming...

Actually, many vets I know (including me) prefer non CP pvp, because you have to make a build, which works for it. Also there are no immortal tanks and shield stacking is less of an issue. It's more fair for everyone.

However I agree that some skills overperform and poisons should be removed completely.

Kay1 · October 2017

Alexandrious wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighht.

*winks*

kek

What?

pieratsos wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

People coming back doesnt matter when you destroy the gameplay.

There are a lot better ways to make people come back that doesnt require destroying the gameplay.

How they are destroying the gameplay by adding CP to a dead PvP mode?

Why is Vivec full on all alliances and the rest don't even reach one bar? Because CP PvP is more popular, so if a minority of you don't like it well I didn't liked neither when they added poisons to hurt solo PvP, I didn't liked neither when they released proc sets, AoE caps and nerfed anti zerg skills, you just deal with it and adapt.

DPShiro · October 2017

Why should I care?

Taylor_MB · October 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

How they are destroying the gameplay by adding CP to a dead PvP mode?
Why is Vivec full on all alliances and the rest don't even reach one bar? Because CP PvP is more popular, so if a minority of you don't like it well I didn't liked neither when they added poisons to hurt solo PvP, I didn't liked neither when they released proc sets, AoE caps and nerfed anti zerg skills, you just deal with it and adapt.

The issue is not whether CP or no-CP is more popular. The issue is where currently 2 out of 4 game types (Chaos Ball and Relic) can be won simply by a tank build and nothing else. Do you enjoy fighting your target dummy? Because with the addition of CP paired with objectives that can be dominated by a single tank build, that is what BG's will become.

DPShiro wrote: »

Why should I care?

When ZoS makes dumb decisions it effects the entire game. Whether it's less people playing to buy what you sell, or less people to support your grievances about changes ZoS makes for another equally stupid reason.

This may not directly affect you, but being vocally opposed to an obviously terrible decision lets ZoS know they can't make changes without thinking it through first. The next dumb thing they do could ruin your fun, but allowing them to set a precedence means your voice will mean nothing

.

Agalloch · October 2017

This is an MMO , isn't it? A MMO is all about proggresion ...If you want other thing play 3d shooters or MOBA.

Even in real life ..a real war has weak and powerful soldiers.

Ok , I am for non cp and cp enabled BGs too.

I am sure the cp enabled bgs will have more people anyway.

WuffyCerulei · October 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

Zip up your pants, your epeen is showing.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2017

Agalloch wrote: »

This is an MMO , isn't it? A MMO is all about proggresion ...If you want other thing play 3d shooters or MOBA.

Even in real life ..a real war has weak and powerful soldiers.

Ok , I am for non cp and cp enabled BGs too.

I am sure the cp enabled bgs will have more people anyway.

You are not comparing real war where people die to a video game you play to have fun to make some kind of point, are you?

zaria · October 2017

laced wrote: »

Cp has literally broken certain campaigns in cyrodiil. Not only does it cause a ridiculous amount of lag, but to balance cp is in itself not at all possible. I was apprehensive about going into bg before, but now, as someone who is not cp 660, it is simply out of the question.

CP did not cause the lag, lag is caused by having hundreds of AoE effects many ground based going on and hitting lots of players at once
This causes server load and communication delays, it also push weaker clients past the limit.

Sylosi · October 2017

Agalloch wrote: »

This is an MMO , isn't it? A MMO is all about proggresion ...If you want other thing play 3d shooters or MOBA.

Even in real life ..a real war has weak and powerful soldiers.

Ok , I am for non cp and cp enabled BGs too.

I am sure the cp enabled bgs will have more people anyway.

What an MMORPG is about is subjective to a certain extent, I mean for some people instanced PvP (and PvE) should not even exist in these games, because they are not part of a persistent world.

As for real life, that is irrelevant, I mean if a soldier dies in real life that is it, they are worm food, no second chances, I am pretty sure most players would find the idea of having to level a new character every time they died in the game, a little too hardcore, what matters is gameplay, and that is one of the issues with the laughably termed "progression".

There is also more than one type of progression, for PvP horizontal progression (more choice, options, etc like in GW1 or in MOBAs as you open up more champs/heroes) is a lot better for gameplay than vertical progression (ever increasing stats, etc) because unless someone is a nabcake then the ideal of good PvP is a match that is close, it is no fun being in a very one sided match (whatever side you are on), where the outcome is decided by stats rather than skill.

Which is one of the reasons 65 million+ play LoL, 20 million play Overwatch, etc and PvP in MMORPGs (especially instanced PvP) is basically a miserable failure (there is the odd rare exception that does an okay job like GW2, but as a generalization the genre is terrible at instanced PvP).

But then the fact that BG are 3 way is so flawed I guess it renders the other issues as insignificant...

Jade1986 · October 2017

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Pop locked with a wait time is pop locked with a wait time. They cant get more populated than that.

Like when I try to enter Vivec...oh wait that doesn't fit your argument does it...[/quote]

What ARE you even on about? When both servers are pop locked, and have a wait time of 40-60 people across all factions, the population IN server actually playing is EXACTLY the same, and during those times, the lag is way worse in vivec.

Can't even with some people....

Jade1986 · October 2017

zaria wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Cp has literally broken certain campaigns in cyrodiil. Not only does it cause a ridiculous amount of lag, but to balance cp is in itself not at all possible. I was apprehensive about going into bg before, but now, as someone who is not cp 660, it is simply out of the question.

CP did not cause the lag, lag is caused by having hundreds of AoE effects many ground based going on and hitting lots of players at once
This causes server load and communication delays, it also push weaker clients past the limit.

Same thing happens in sotha sil during pop locked times, and there is less lag. So.....what is it then? Some mystical lag fairy going around sprinkling latency dust on everyone?

Qbiken · October 2017

Even tho I don´t agree with you about CP being something bad for this game I´ve got to give you some credit for the reasoning and good video

I made a post about my views on permablocking:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375444/about-permablocking/p1

Please feel free to read it if you like

I point out in the post/thread that there´s no "quick/easy fix" that will solve the tanky permablocking playstyle, since there´re so many mechanics/components to consider. CP is a part of it, not denying that, but I think a lot of people/players blame CP for more stuff than necessary and that there´re other mechanics that has bigger impact.

Drakkdjinn · October 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

Confirmed: ZoS caters to the dumb and fickle crowd that doesn't even know what it wants. Thanks Brian.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2017

I like CP BG TOO MUCH was changed/ nerf like cost and effects, to make CP not be too over the top. Playing with no CP is taking the nerf with no trade off.

They just need to add a non cp mode and they will be set. Both sides will be happy playing the mode they want.

Strider__Roshin · October 2017

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

Confirmed: ZoS caters to the dumb and fickle crowd that doesn't even know what it wants. Thanks Brian.

This really is an "account for the lowest denominator" kind of game. Have you played the PvE? When the NPCs aren't doing obvious windups they're spamming light attacks.

Urza1234 · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're right. But ZoS is probably doing this to try and make BGs more popular.

It's easier to add CP than to make a meaningful leaderboard, rewards players will want to progress towards, a robust matchmaker system, etc.

Idk why ZOS would even add BGs without any of those things. Why include a half-finished feature?

Malic · October 2017

CP really screwed the pooch in this game in so many ways. Its been a complete disaster IMHO.

Urza1234 · October 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're right. But ZoS is probably doing this to try and make BGs more popular.

It's easier to add CP than to make a meaningful leaderboard, rewards players will want to progress towards, a robust matchmaker system, etc.

This is probably the true reason for adding CPs.

They see a drastic decline in BG population, and they would rather change it to CP enabled, even though the players tell them it's a big mistake.

I mean, what other option they have to increase BG population?

Make it free for everyone?
Pfffft.

But, hey! When they see CP enabled won't make them more popular, they just might revert to no CP after 3 months and make them base game.
MAYBE.

They just take so damned long to figure out that they screwed up, and even then they dont ever admit it.

Taylor_MB · October 2017

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

They just need to add a non cp mode and they will be set. Both sides will be happy playing the mode they want.

Agreed. CP and non-CP queue should've been implemented from the beginning.

Qbiken wrote: »

Even tho I don´t agree with you about CP being something bad for this game I´ve got to give you some credit for the reasoning and good video

I made a post about my views on permablocking:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375444/about-permablocking/p1

Please feel free to read it if you like
I point out in the post/thread that there´s no "quick/easy fix" that will solve the tanky permablocking playstyle, since there´re so many mechanics/components to consider. CP is a part of it, not denying that, but I think a lot of people/players blame CP for more stuff than necessary and that there´re other mechanics that has bigger impact.

Agreed with everything in the linked post, including the end spoiler. Just to add though (something I should've mentioned in the video), CP not only allows you to invest into Shadow Ward, but all the other CP trees to make up for your traits being Sturdy and Glyphs being block cost reduction. So CP allows you to block more and of course self heal for more.

more block + more heals + single objective BG = bad times

Kay1 · October 2017

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

How they are destroying the gameplay by adding CP to a dead PvP mode?
Why is Vivec full on all alliances and the rest don't even reach one bar? Because CP PvP is more popular, so if a minority of you don't like it well I didn't liked neither when they added poisons to hurt solo PvP, I didn't liked neither when they released proc sets, AoE caps and nerfed anti zerg skills, you just deal with it and adapt.

The issue is not whether CP or no-CP is more popular. The issue is where currently 2 out of 4 game types (Chaos Ball and Relic) can be won simply by a tank build and nothing else. Do you enjoy fighting your target dummy? Because with the addition of CP paired with objectives that can be dominated by a single tank build, that is what BG's will become.

DPShiro wrote: »

Why should I care?

When ZoS makes dumb decisions it effects the entire game. Whether it's less people playing to buy what you sell, or less people to support your grievances about changes ZoS makes for another equally stupid reason.

This may not directly affect you, but being vocally opposed to an obviously terrible decision lets ZoS know they can't make changes without thinking it through first. The next dumb thing they do could ruin your fun, but allowing them to set a precedence means your voice will mean nothing .

I've never struggled against a tank, I understand that issue and the main solution is to increase the cost of blocking in PvP but they'll never do that they'll just nerf heavy more to make PvE tanks useless.

I don't think I am that special but I really don't struggle against tanks, I usually just pressure them a lot and I am talking about solo PvP, with my team I doubt any tank can last for more than 20 seconds especially in CP PvP.

I guess this affects more the above average/average player than experts PvP players because I totally understand that an average player can't cancel that much, combo his attacks and use their CC effectively like a more veteran player and veterans players are a minority so I guess it's very important that this gets fixed with either a nerf for the tanks or a buff to counter it.

A increase blocking cost poisons could be a quick but effective nerf that won't affect PvE but I am sure there's better solutions.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

Zip up your pants, your epeen is showing.

To be honest my epeen died long time ago, everything so easy now there's nothing to be proud of, I will try to summon my epeen by doing some 1vX with the Broom but I doubt it will work

I was just trying to make a point, because everything I said it's truth, you learn by putting yourself in challenge, that's how I learned a lot of things in life including my English!

Egonieser · October 2017

kyle.wilson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Not only does it cause a ridiculous amount of lag

I'm all for BG staying non-CP but what you said was never proven.

Its just logic. CP campaigns are far far FAR laggier than non cp campaigns, and that is because of far far more calculations that need to be made. When all 3 factions are pop locked on both servers, sotha is way less laggy. And unless there is some underlying hardware issue between the 2, it is that.

I don't think I've seen a non-cp campaign pop locked since zos tested all pvp servers as non-cp.

Not sure which server you are playing, but in PC EU, non-CP is just as populated as CP campaign, sometimes even more so, which totally contradicts your point. Non-CP campaigns are a step up for newbies who just exited the sub-lvl 50 campaign and don't have enough CP. They have a fighting chance without CP and a much more even playing field. All they need to do is grab a on-level purple crafted set and they are good to go.
Try that against someone with max CP in a regular campaign and they will (and are) be turned to shreds in an instant. That's why whenever there's a PvP event - nonCP campaign (speaking of PC EU here) has queues and populations MUCH larger than CP campaigns, for this exact same reason. It's much more begginer friendly.

KingMagaw · November 2017

Just tired CP BG for the first time after the CP update.

Was totally ***. Longest fights with DK tanks and magplars that kept going and going.

How hard was it to keep a NO CP BG like PvP options? @ZOS_GinaBruno.

I also feel a bit ripped off buying MW for NO CP BG and then being totally changed to CP BG's without a NO CP option. Pretty crap change.