[Vid] Why CP in Battlegrounds is a Terrible Idea and Why You Should Care!

KingMagaw · October 2017

Why isn't the same logic applied to BG as PvP.

NO CP and CP - choice.

I only play NO CP PvP and play BG the odd time, if it changed to CP solely i would never play BG

Sixty5 · October 2017

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Non-cp pvp also takes a lot more skill to be good at.

Being able to sustain yourself in a fight is more of a challenge, so you need to make more trade offs in your build, as well as being able to play around those.

With the exact same build in cyrodil as I use in BG's I have infinite sustain and my burst is hugely more impactful. Anyone who isn't a tank has their TTK cut in half, and anyone who is a tank is probably still out there holding block 3 weeks later.

Will I still play BGs after the changes? Probably, will they be as good? Probably not

Non-CP without proc sets is more skillful. Unfortunately proc sets make non-CP PvP even less skill based than CP enabled PvP.

If it weren't for these terrible additions in the game I would be more than happy to agree with you.

About the only proc sets that ever show.up these days are Skoria and Selenes. Everything else is pretty meh now.

You obviously don't play a lot of battlegrounds

Slack · October 2017

Don't take away my Skoria!!

Emma_Overload · October 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

ZOS doesn't listen.

ZOS DOES listen... that's why they added CP to Battlegrounds in the first place. The only mistake they made was REMOVING the No-CP option. Therefore there is a whole new group of people complaining!

Waffennacht · October 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

Why isn't the same logic applied to BG as PvP.

NO CP and CP - choice.

I only play NO CP PvP and play BG the odd time, if it changed to CP solely i would never play BG

I do think it's coming, along with a way to select game modes. Though I think it's largely depending on participation numbers

Oakmontowls_ESO · October 2017

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

Strider__Roshin · October 2017

Sixty5 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Non-cp pvp also takes a lot more skill to be good at.

Being able to sustain yourself in a fight is more of a challenge, so you need to make more trade offs in your build, as well as being able to play around those.

With the exact same build in cyrodil as I use in BG's I have infinite sustain and my burst is hugely more impactful. Anyone who isn't a tank has their TTK cut in half, and anyone who is a tank is probably still out there holding block 3 weeks later.

Will I still play BGs after the changes? Probably, will they be as good? Probably not

Non-CP without proc sets is more skillful. Unfortunately proc sets make non-CP PvP even less skill based than CP enabled PvP.

If it weren't for these terrible additions in the game I would be more than happy to agree with you.

About the only proc sets that ever show.up these days are Skoria and Selenes. Everything else is pretty meh now.

You obviously don't play a lot of battlegrounds

You're right, I don't. Not being able to choose my game type really makes me not want to partake in it.

Sixty5 · October 2017

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Non-cp pvp also takes a lot more skill to be good at.

Being able to sustain yourself in a fight is more of a challenge, so you need to make more trade offs in your build, as well as being able to play around those.

With the exact same build in cyrodil as I use in BG's I have infinite sustain and my burst is hugely more impactful. Anyone who isn't a tank has their TTK cut in half, and anyone who is a tank is probably still out there holding block 3 weeks later.

Will I still play BGs after the changes? Probably, will they be as good? Probably not

Non-CP without proc sets is more skillful. Unfortunately proc sets make non-CP PvP even less skill based than CP enabled PvP.

If it weren't for these terrible additions in the game I would be more than happy to agree with you.

About the only proc sets that ever show.up these days are Skoria and Selenes. Everything else is pretty meh now.

You obviously don't play a lot of battlegrounds

You're right, I don't. Not being able to choose my game type really makes me not want to partake in it.

I'd suggest playing regardless. I mean I started out only wanting to play TDM like most, but I have grown to enjoy capture the relic and domination much more than I thought I would.

Mostly because terrible teammates aren't as much of a problem in those game modes.

pieratsos · October 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Cp will bring more people too bgs

Bgs already don’t have a lot of people playing them
1.pay wall
2.no cp

Actually its

1. Lack of actual rewards. (AP gains insignificant compared to cyro)
2. supposed to be competitive PVP with no competitive leaderboards
3. objectives encouraging you to not PVP because of the medal system
4. grouping tools (premades vs randoms)
5. pay wall
6. no CP

So yeah, first they should do some changes to improve the gameplay and the rewards. Maybe that will also make BGs better and more people may actually have a reason to buy morrowind and give them money in the proccess? Doesnt sound bad, right?

But nope, just put CP in there. Shove it down on people's throats. Who gives a [snip] about the gameplay. Make BGs like cyro too.

[Edited to remove profanity]

WuffyCerulei · October 2017

I gotta respect the fact that you took time to actually explain what the issue is with CP+tanking in pvp. The few other people who would post on here about CP in BGs being an issue give no explanations or anything. Just complaining.

pieratsos · October 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

So what they basically said is "as long as people play it, who cares about the [snip] gameplay".

ZOS logic in a nutshell.

[Edited to remove profanity]

kyle.wilson · October 2017

laced wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Not only does it cause a ridiculous amount of lag

I'm all for BG staying non-CP but what you said was never proven.

Its just logic. CP campaigns are far far FAR laggier than non cp campaigns, and that is because of far far more calculations that need to be made. When all 3 factions are pop locked on both servers, sotha is way less laggy. And unless there is some underlying hardware issue between the 2, it is that.

Its far laggier because players have proven time and again that most want to play CP campaigns.
I don't think I've seen a non-cp campaign pop locked since zos tested all pvp servers as non-cp.
They tested this to see if CP was causing the lag, and since we never got a result of that week, I think we can assume it wasn't causing the lag.

I had the normal amount of lag during that week of non-cp trueflame, but I did see a lot of pvers use the double AP so they wouldn't ever have to go back into pvp.

Alaztor91 · October 2017

I think the problem is that ZOS believes that CP's are the main reason why people don't participate in BG's. Sure maybe it is one of the reasons but imo stuff like premades vs randoms being in the same queue, not being able to choose the game mode, rewards, locked behind morrowind, etc are all more important reasons as to why people are just not participating in them.

If the only thing they make is change them to be CP only without addressing the other multiple issues that people have mentioned they will eventually face the same problem in the future.

Oakmontowls_ESO · October 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

So what they basically said is "as long as people play it, who cares about the [snip] gameplay".

ZOS logic in a nutshell.

More like you have to give the people what they want not what the vocal minority wants. At the end of the day they are still a company trying to make money.

[Edited for quote]

WaltherCarraway · October 2017

I fully agree with OP

CP battleground would be 12 magsorcs spamming wards till timer ticks to 0 imo

Strider__Roshin · October 2017

Sixty5 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Non-cp pvp also takes a lot more skill to be good at.

Being able to sustain yourself in a fight is more of a challenge, so you need to make more trade offs in your build, as well as being able to play around those.

With the exact same build in cyrodil as I use in BG's I have infinite sustain and my burst is hugely more impactful. Anyone who isn't a tank has their TTK cut in half, and anyone who is a tank is probably still out there holding block 3 weeks later.

Will I still play BGs after the changes? Probably, will they be as good? Probably not

Non-CP without proc sets is more skillful. Unfortunately proc sets make non-CP PvP even less skill based than CP enabled PvP.

If it weren't for these terrible additions in the game I would be more than happy to agree with you.

About the only proc sets that ever show.up these days are Skoria and Selenes. Everything else is pretty meh now.

You obviously don't play a lot of battlegrounds

You're right, I don't. Not being able to choose my game type really makes me not want to partake in it.

I'd suggest playing regardless. I mean I started out only wanting to play TDM like most, but I have grown to enjoy capture the relic and domination much more than I thought I would.

Mostly because terrible teammates aren't as much of a problem in those game modes.

Trust me, I've done battlegrounds a lot in the past, but my guild mates and I are just sick of objective game types such as CTF, and domination. And then even TDM gets irritating when you have a crappy team just feeding the other team easy kills -_-

Battlegrounds is something that's easy to get right, but somehow ZOS still botched it.

SirAxen · October 2017

Or, just have don't take it so seriously and have fun.

pieratsos · October 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

So what they basically said is "as long as people play it, who cares about the [snip] gameplay".

ZOS logic in a nutshell.

More like you have to give the people what they want not what the vocal minority wants. At the end of the day they are still a company trying to make money.

[Snip] all over ur product just to shove it down on people's throat isnt called "giving people what they want" or "a company trying to make money" . Its called "milking money". There is a difference.

Improving ur product so people can buy it however, its called "giving people what they want and making money in the process".

As far as the "vocal minority" is concerned, well you should really pay attention to cyro population. Its getting smaller every patch. No one likes CP in PVP. Its a horribly designed system that literally destroyed PVP.

[Edited for quote]
[Edited to remove profanity]

runagate · October 2017

This is the first time I've watched a video of a player on these forums and thought that seems like an intelligent fellow and I appreciate their thoughtful presentation. Just not having horrific techno music is usually the best one can hope for.

Well done, OP.

Also, your mustache has reversed my menopause and I find myself suddenly fertile once again after all these years.

Maryal · October 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

So I just went to the Bethesda meet up at twitch con and got to talk to BrianWheeler who is the pvp lead. In talking with him, he is just as opposed to adding cp to battle grounds as the community is. However the numbers don't lie, people want to play with cp. He also talked about allowing you to que for specific modes and cp/no cp but there is the problem of making the que times even longer due to spreading people out.

Tldr: just keep in mind the Devs read your comments and share the same concerns as you do. However there are other things they have to consider.

If 'the numbers' means 'raw numbers' ... that wouldn't be telling the entire story. More than a few people go to Vivec for reasons other than it being a CP enabled campaign. ( 'numbers don't lie' BUT numbers can be misunderstood, especially without digging deeper to understand the 'why' behind those numbers).

You may go to the Vivec campaign simply to be with your friends or guild mates ... not because it's CP enabled

There are plenty of players who may not necessarily like CP enabled pvp, or may be indifferent to it, but go to Vivec because that is where 'action' is.

When your primary reason for going to Cyrodiil is simply to farm AP at the bridge, you go to the campaign where you will find lots of people fighting at the bridge, regardless of whether or not the campaign is CP enabled.

If you enjoy engaging in epic siege battles, you know that buying lots of of siege equipment, oils, repair kits, forward camps, etc., isn't cheap. To 'afford' this type of fun, you really need to be on a populated campaign CP or no CP. Yea, you get AP for taking a keep or resource, but it's the D-ticks and O-ticks that make the difference in being able to 'support' your preferred style of play.
---> Yea, I know there are a few 'war toys' you can purchase with gold, but my toon isn't wealthy and I prefer to save my gold for other things.

All that being said, I do realize that the vocal majority of players on Vivec prefer CP enabled pvp, including BGs ... but why?

Take someone who has been playing the game for 6-9 months (for example), their campaign is set to Vivec, they have accumulated a decent amount of CP, and they put together a pvp build that makes them feel very empowered in Cyrodiil.

Now take that same person and put them in a non-CP BG group with 3 other similarly situated players. Now pit that group against 1 or 2 other BG groups of highly experienced veteran pvp'ers ... which group is going to get wiped?

People that are loosing, or not ranking as high on the leaderboards as they think they should, feel dis-empowered without their CP. They see non-CP BGs as 'limiting build diversity.'

Now take the group of highly skilled vet pvp'ers ... many see non-CP BGs as encouraging build diversity, whereas CP enabled BGs are viewed as something that limits build diversity in a very unhealthy way.

And, you know what ... they are BOTH right.

Why? Because, IMO, the whole problem stems from the group finder doing a poor job matching up players (not only regarding an individual's placement in a group, but also in assigning the groups 'your group' fights against). Without the group finder, there is no battlegrounds. The success (or not) of BGs is directly connected to the success of the group finder in properly matching players within a group, as well as the groups they fight against.

Enabling CP in BGs is not the answer.

Mikuelray · October 2017

I think they should have both cp and non-cp. Cp does create more diversity but..... now the unkillable tank can just walk with the chaos ball while 2 teams try and kill him or her. I love my cp but like i said in another post. Permablock is the death of pvp. Just battle spirt blocking to where it only a 180° protection in pvp area instead of 360° Just my opinion. It will be hard to fully get rid of permablock and any other ways to exploit the game. But hey just food for thought.

Morgul667 · October 2017

CP BG will be a huge bummer

I love non CP BG

Jade1986 · October 2017

kyle.wilson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Not only does it cause a ridiculous amount of lag

I'm all for BG staying non-CP but what you said was never proven.

Its just logic. CP campaigns are far far FAR laggier than non cp campaigns, and that is because of far far more calculations that need to be made. When all 3 factions are pop locked on both servers, sotha is way less laggy. And unless there is some underlying hardware issue between the 2, it is that.

Its far laggier because players have proven time and again that most want to play CP campaigns.
I don't think I've seen a non-cp campaign pop locked since zos tested all pvp servers as non-cp.
They tested this to see if CP was causing the lag, and since we never got a result of that week, I think we can assume it wasn't causing the lag.

I had the normal amount of lag during that week of non-cp trueflame, but I did see a lot of pvers use the double AP so they wouldn't ever have to go back into pvp.

PC EU Sotha Sil is regularly pop locked at peak times. I used to only play vivec and went to sotha, and the experience is much much better. In vivec i tested the ability acid spray. I could actually use it, run forward, and 2 seconds later it would shoot off behind me. In Sotha the lag is actually what it says on the ping indicator, a small delay, but nothing near what you have in vivec.

Alcast · October 2017

There is like 50 people in BGs queue thats it. I think they just wanna test it out and see if more people will be willing to play BGs then.

Kay1 · October 2017

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I fully agree with OP

CP battleground would be 12 magsorcs spamming wards till timer ticks to 0 imo

This, or full tank builds with unlimited resources. You know the ones it takes more than 8 players to kill in Cyrodiil, we have those to look forward to.

Probably won't play anymore anyway.

How to trash a game mode.

Jade1986 · October 2017

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

I fully agree with OP

CP battleground would be 12 magsorcs spamming wards till timer ticks to 0 imo

This, or full tank builds with unlimited resources. You know the ones it takes more than 8 players to kill in Cyrodiil, we have those to look forward to.

Probably won't play anymore anyway.

How to trash a game mode.

I was actually considering going into BGs now that my gear is almost in order, but with cp, hell no. Im not gonna be fodder for cp 660, soon to be 690 players being over 300 cp behind them. Hell no.

Mihael · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're right. But ZoS is probably doing this to try and make BGs more popular.

It's easier to add CP than to make a meaningful leaderboard, rewards players will want to progress towards, a robust matchmaker system, etc.

^^

pieratsos · October 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

People coming back doesnt matter when you destroy the gameplay.

There are a lot better ways to make people come back that doesnt require destroying the gameplay.

Alexandrious · October 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

The biggest power gap is between those who just reached level 50 who have no CP, no full gear sets, non upgraded gear and missing passives vs 660CP toons with completely optimised gear and CP.

You know how I am considered one of the best players of my server?

Because I was the lvl 50 guy with no CP, I struggled, I died, I respawned and retried,
I played No CP, I farmed my gear, got my CP and I went in Cyrodiil CP with half the cap in that moment and I did just fine, I kept trying and now I can 1v8 people, entire guilds pay me monthly fees to don't play when they push, zergs don't waste their time on me and entire PvP guilds let me watch them.

You become stronger by challenging yourself, by doing solo PvP, by fighting opponents with more chances to win than you, and the difference between a player without CP and one with CP is definitely not the CP but the skill, the knowledge, the strategy, the use of skills, the cancel and the gear unfortunately at the moment.

No CP is boring because for me it feels like PvE if I go with my friends, I don't see any challenges pub stomping noobs because only noobs or average players play no CP so your chances of fighting a team of good players is very low so you end up having a full team of superstars from a server against 2 teams of people who can't cancel.

CP Battlegrounds will finally make a lot of people come back but imo, it's too late, we will see.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighht.

*winks*

kek