Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Why are all the mag DKs moaning?

75% of your enemies are vampires in PVP and take 25% extra damage from your attacks.
Your resistance is the highest, you have dragon leap which is cheap, can't dodge it and hits like a truck, oh and it's a gap closer.

You have a good heal and your CCs are the best.

But no, you want a gap closer, execute and mobility too.

Lol what on Earth would be the point in playing ANY other class if we had that?

Those vamps are resisting thanks to elemental defender.

CCs are the best? in melee range maybe, but 90% of players run immovable pots, this is arguable.

Leap is a gap closer? It is an ultimate that can be blocked or dodged intime, compare it to any other cheap ulti or something that costs the same, it is not all that, not to mention the animation bugs you get stuck in half the time.

We do not "want " a gap closer, we mentioned LACKING a gap closer, it should be compensated, just like not having an execute, some compensation is worth considering.

You have very little info in how the mDk was before IC update, after and even today. You are probably being carried or running with a healer in Cyrodiil, or having some stamina guy with you while you CC and leap and he bursts.

DK is in a good spot

If being non-existent in PvP groups is a "good spot" then yeah I guess we're in a great spot.

You should actually try playing DK before commenting on its viability.

I play one and see them all the time on console. Especially in battlegrounds, mag DK specifically is very strong in battlegrounds. Not as strong as mag warden for BGs but that is almost entirely because of the healing ult.

It's arguably the weakest magicka class, even in BGs. Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. Give me a group of 3 Magplars or 3 Magblades with a Warden any day of the week.

Who said anything about holding block? Perhaps you just built yours wrong?

Slow the roll on that hyperbole and perhaps your comments could be taken more seriously.

Mag DK's in general struggle to get KB's but that in no way eliminates their value or contribution. Secondly I have played with and against a few Mag DK's that got plenty of KB's.

In contrast Sorc's in general get plenty of KB's, but I've seen a ton of them that can't deal squat for damage and just grab KB's off their allies. Getting KB's only defines performance for teenagers who cant see beyond a particular K/D ratio. Same kids who go into a BGs on NB's and ignore the objectives while exalting that they went 5-0 by ganking solo players.

Yes and no.

If you are in a group, then I agree that getting killing blows is not particularly that important as there are other things a non-killer could do productively for their team. As to whether or not the DK offers just as many "other things" comapred to other classes is a matter of debate. I think it's very difficulty to quantify that and convincingly say a DK is better. I will grant chains can be useful, talons is strong, and eruption can have a role, but is anyone going to tell me they are better than Fear, corrupting Pollen, Encase, or Breath of Life?

You say slow the role on hyperbole and then equate getting killing blows as ONLY defining performance for teenagers. Physician, heal thyself. If you are not in a group, than killing blows are tantamount to winning and losing; in the open world alone, a DK has to get killing blows and multiple amounts or else it's rez at wayshrine.

That's because I don't see DK's lacking for killing blows because of an inability to kill opponents. Rather they lack because they do not have an execute and they are on the lower end of burst, so they lose killing blows to allies that they would otherwise get solo.

In BG's you are always in a group, whether you que'd in with those players or not. I made no claim that a Mag DK was strong solo in Cyrodiil. Although I have seen a few video's of some that did quite well for themselves.

I have actually played a match with two mag DK's, one stam DK, and a NB. All four players on my team did over 800k damage and beat both opposing teams which had dedicated healers that healed for over 500k. The highest damage dealer was a Mag DK at 1.2mil. I have seen Mag DK's go 20 and 0 in BG's. No it is not common, but it isn't entirely elusive or impossible.

Yes in general Mag DK's struggle to get KB's because they lack an execute, where other setups can get KB's. Trust me I've played a lot of bow builds and bow/bow builds, I'm very familiar with struggling to get KB's. Not having a strong execute does not break a class.

Notice I said KB's not Mag DK's cannot kill other players.

Some Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYWTMIRhDU

This guy has healer die about 1min in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmnY9LBdQjA

Some group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfxPLeBm2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yL-gUtoz7Q

I'm not sure why people keep peddling this fallacious argument that the DKs pulling "1.2m damage" in BGs is somehow representative of the strengths of the class. Give me a teammate who does half as much overall damage but does it in burst windows resulting in kills any day over a DK who just spams weak AoEs and contributes little to a group's killing ability.

If you want videos, why don't you watch Kodi stream his mDK in open world. He's objectively one of the best players in the game and he'll tell you it's the weakest magicka class by a large margin.

If you hate it so much why do you even bother?

I see players not just doing okay, but excelling on Mag DK. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

An individual player may be objectively good, that in no way equates to their ability to be objective. An individual players ranking system does not objectively prove anything. All players have bias, all players have preferences and habits. Some classes and play styles come more naturally and feel easier than others to specific people.

You stated:

Kilandros wrote: »

. . .
Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. . .

I not only stated that this was false, I brought video evidence of the contrary. Mag DK's are not stuck with holding block and letting other players get kills. That is objectively false, perhaps those who build their DKs to hold block are doing this, but it is not a restriction of the class itself.

Anyone can string together selective video clips.

Of course it is selective clips.

If you want to quibble over what clips people choose to upload you need to provide a massive range of data over many characters constrained for gear, setups, group composition and opponents. Then you would need to sift the data to prove which classes are performing better over that range and what periods. Even then you couldn't possibly cover all sets, setups, or play styles.

The video's show that Mag DK's can in fact kill other players with significant proficiency. Controlling for every class, every setup, is not realistic. These videos are a rebuttal of the idea that Mag DK's can only stand around and block and hope someone else kills people.

reiverx wrote: »

I run in a small group. We are super efficient at wiping out larger groups. Everything I do on my mDK can be done better with other classes and that's the issue.

This proves literally nothing. Simply because you cannot see, are not using, or do not require the advantages of mag DK's does not equate to them having none. All this shows is that for your group and play style you have found other classes to be more beneficial.

Mag DK's have significant survivability and ability to control opposing players through Snares, roots, and CC's. They are quite capable of killing other players, as well as tanking damage, but lack an execute. As such their value grows in proportion to which the group shrinks. Which is why they are very strong in BG's, were fights are often between 3-6 players, but less so in Cyrodiil.


If you want to point out specific mechanics of Mag DK's and argue their lack of value that is a reasonable position. The argument that Mag DK's lack significantly advantageous group utility is in my opinion completely reasonable. ESO PVP is not however a zero sum game, many things are incredibly advantageous is certain scenario's while being relatively useless in others. Play style, group composition, setup, opponents, significantly effect the value of individual components.

Do you even play magicka DK? It's really easy to watch other people play it and act like you know something about the mechanics of the class. But you clearly don't understand the class. Instead you're just making vapid arguments like saying mDK are "quite capable of killing other players," yet you don't give any meaningful explanation as to why you think they are capable of killing other players. You also say things like "Mag DK's have significant survivability," but you don't explain where you think that survivability comes from. I have 3 years experience playing mDK daily, and I can tell you that our survivability comes at the expense of our capability of killing other players, and vice versa. The fact that you pretend like those two things come naturally to the class and that they come in tandem speaks to how limited your experience playing mDK in open world is. If you had some actual experience, you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Also, the fact that you rely on video clips is fairly suspect. 1vX montages and highlight reels have never been any kind of reliable indicator of class strength. I don't need to be on a particularly good class if I'm a great player and I'm fighting people who haven't yet discovered the strengths of impen, for example. Perhaps you think that those 1vX montages and highly reels are just par for the course every time a mDK logs in and goes into Cyrodiil. If that's what you think I'm afraid I can't help you. If you simply cannot live without videos, at least watch a stream of someone playing unedited fights--but relying on cherry-picked fights as being somehow indicative of what it's like to play the class when they are uploaded precisely because they are exceptional or standout clips is really quite naive. My best advice is to get a mDK and try playing it in open world to get a feel for the class. That's a far better way to understand the mechanics than watching videos and/or posting those videos in support of some nebulous argument on the forums.

Kilandros wrote: »

you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Why are all the mag DKs moaning?

75% of your enemies are vampires in PVP and take 25% extra damage from your attacks.
Your resistance is the highest, you have dragon leap which is cheap, can't dodge it and hits like a truck, oh and it's a gap closer.

You have a good heal and your CCs are the best.

But no, you want a gap closer, execute and mobility too.

Lol what on Earth would be the point in playing ANY other class if we had that?

Those vamps are resisting thanks to elemental defender.

CCs are the best? in melee range maybe, but 90% of players run immovable pots, this is arguable.

Leap is a gap closer? It is an ultimate that can be blocked or dodged intime, compare it to any other cheap ulti or something that costs the same, it is not all that, not to mention the animation bugs you get stuck in half the time.

We do not "want " a gap closer, we mentioned LACKING a gap closer, it should be compensated, just like not having an execute, some compensation is worth considering.

You have very little info in how the mDk was before IC update, after and even today. You are probably being carried or running with a healer in Cyrodiil, or having some stamina guy with you while you CC and leap and he bursts.

DK is in a good spot

If being non-existent in PvP groups is a "good spot" then yeah I guess we're in a great spot.

You should actually try playing DK before commenting on its viability.

I play one and see them all the time on console. Especially in battlegrounds, mag DK specifically is very strong in battlegrounds. Not as strong as mag warden for BGs but that is almost entirely because of the healing ult.

It's arguably the weakest magicka class, even in BGs. Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. Give me a group of 3 Magplars or 3 Magblades with a Warden any day of the week.

Who said anything about holding block? Perhaps you just built yours wrong?

Slow the roll on that hyperbole and perhaps your comments could be taken more seriously.

Mag DK's in general struggle to get KB's but that in no way eliminates their value or contribution. Secondly I have played with and against a few Mag DK's that got plenty of KB's.

In contrast Sorc's in general get plenty of KB's, but I've seen a ton of them that can't deal squat for damage and just grab KB's off their allies. Getting KB's only defines performance for teenagers who cant see beyond a particular K/D ratio. Same kids who go into a BGs on NB's and ignore the objectives while exalting that they went 5-0 by ganking solo players.

Yes and no.

If you are in a group, then I agree that getting killing blows is not particularly that important as there are other things a non-killer could do productively for their team. As to whether or not the DK offers just as many "other things" comapred to other classes is a matter of debate. I think it's very difficulty to quantify that and convincingly say a DK is better. I will grant chains can be useful, talons is strong, and eruption can have a role, but is anyone going to tell me they are better than Fear, corrupting Pollen, Encase, or Breath of Life?

You say slow the role on hyperbole and then equate getting killing blows as ONLY defining performance for teenagers. Physician, heal thyself. If you are not in a group, than killing blows are tantamount to winning and losing; in the open world alone, a DK has to get killing blows and multiple amounts or else it's rez at wayshrine.

That's because I don't see DK's lacking for killing blows because of an inability to kill opponents. Rather they lack because they do not have an execute and they are on the lower end of burst, so they lose killing blows to allies that they would otherwise get solo.

In BG's you are always in a group, whether you que'd in with those players or not. I made no claim that a Mag DK was strong solo in Cyrodiil. Although I have seen a few video's of some that did quite well for themselves.

I have actually played a match with two mag DK's, one stam DK, and a NB. All four players on my team did over 800k damage and beat both opposing teams which had dedicated healers that healed for over 500k. The highest damage dealer was a Mag DK at 1.2mil. I have seen Mag DK's go 20 and 0 in BG's. No it is not common, but it isn't entirely elusive or impossible.

Yes in general Mag DK's struggle to get KB's because they lack an execute, where other setups can get KB's. Trust me I've played a lot of bow builds and bow/bow builds, I'm very familiar with struggling to get KB's. Not having a strong execute does not break a class.

Notice I said KB's not Mag DK's cannot kill other players.

Some Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYWTMIRhDU

This guy has healer die about 1min in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmnY9LBdQjA

Some group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfxPLeBm2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yL-gUtoz7Q

I'm not sure why people keep peddling this fallacious argument that the DKs pulling "1.2m damage" in BGs is somehow representative of the strengths of the class. Give me a teammate who does half as much overall damage but does it in burst windows resulting in kills any day over a DK who just spams weak AoEs and contributes little to a group's killing ability.

If you want videos, why don't you watch Kodi stream his mDK in open world. He's objectively one of the best players in the game and he'll tell you it's the weakest magicka class by a large margin.

If you hate it so much why do you even bother?

I see players not just doing okay, but excelling on Mag DK. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

An individual player may be objectively good, that in no way equates to their ability to be objective. An individual players ranking system does not objectively prove anything. All players have bias, all players have preferences and habits. Some classes and play styles come more naturally and feel easier than others to specific people.

You stated:

Kilandros wrote: »

. . .
Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. . .

I not only stated that this was false, I brought video evidence of the contrary. Mag DK's are not stuck with holding block and letting other players get kills. That is objectively false, perhaps those who build their DKs to hold block are doing this, but it is not a restriction of the class itself.

Anyone can string together selective video clips.

Of course it is selective clips.

If you want to quibble over what clips people choose to upload you need to provide a massive range of data over many characters constrained for gear, setups, group composition and opponents. Then you would need to sift the data to prove which classes are performing better over that range and what periods. Even then you couldn't possibly cover all sets, setups, or play styles.

The video's show that Mag DK's can in fact kill other players with significant proficiency. Controlling for every class, every setup, is not realistic. These videos are a rebuttal of the idea that Mag DK's can only stand around and block and hope someone else kills people.

reiverx wrote: »

I run in a small group. We are super efficient at wiping out larger groups. Everything I do on my mDK can be done better with other classes and that's the issue.

This proves literally nothing. Simply because you cannot see, are not using, or do not require the advantages of mag DK's does not equate to them having none. All this shows is that for your group and play style you have found other classes to be more beneficial.

Mag DK's have significant survivability and ability to control opposing players through Snares, roots, and CC's. They are quite capable of killing other players, as well as tanking damage, but lack an execute. As such their value grows in proportion to which the group shrinks. Which is why they are very strong in BG's, were fights are often between 3-6 players, but less so in Cyrodiil.


If you want to point out specific mechanics of Mag DK's and argue their lack of value that is a reasonable position. The argument that Mag DK's lack significantly advantageous group utility is in my opinion completely reasonable. ESO PVP is not however a zero sum game, many things are incredibly advantageous is certain scenario's while being relatively useless in others. Play style, group composition, setup, opponents, significantly effect the value of individual components.

Do you even play magicka DK? It's really easy to watch other people play it and act like you know something about the mechanics of the class. But you clearly don't understand the class. Instead you're just making vapid arguments like saying mDK are "quite capable of killing other players," yet you don't give any meaningful explanation as to why you think they are capable of killing other players. You also say things like "Mag DK's have significant survivability," but you don't explain where you think that survivability comes from. I have 3 years experience playing mDK daily, and I can tell you that our survivability comes at the expense of our capability of killing other players, and vice versa. The fact that you pretend like those two things come naturally to the class and that they come in tandem speaks to how limited your experience playing mDK in open world is. If you had some actual experience, you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Also, the fact that you rely on video clips is fairly suspect. 1vX montages and highlight reels have never been any kind of reliable indicator of class strength. I don't need to be on a particularly good class if I'm a great player and I'm fighting people who haven't yet discovered the strengths of impen, for example. Perhaps you think that those 1vX montages and highly reels are just par for the course every time a mDK logs in and goes into Cyrodiil. If that's what you think I'm afraid I can't help you. If you simply cannot live without videos, at least watch a stream of someone playing unedited fights--but relying on cherry-picked fights as being somehow indicative of what it's like to play the class when they are uploaded precisely because they are exceptional or standout clips is really quite naive. My best advice is to get a mDK and try playing it in open world to get a feel for the class. That's a far better way to understand the mechanics than watching videos and/or posting those videos in support of some nebulous argument on the forums.

I do actually play Mag DK, it is my primary tank for PVE. It isn't my primary PVP character, but I have taken it into PVP and got similar results to my other characters. I don't rely on video clips, but I can see how someone could view it that way when they have to try and find a reason for a different opinion than theirs.

I've heard all these complaints before, they differ little in overall nature from other class complaints. Mag Wardens want to kill better, Mag NB's complain about dodgeable abilities and being squishy, Mag Sorc's complain about being squishy and having to rely on shields, Mag Templar's complain about their skills being neutered and having to choose between being able to kill or able to heal.

These are the same exact arguments that Mag Templar throws out.

Kilandros wrote: »

you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Every build without exception has to sacrifice some survivability to increase their kill potential. Every player out there is seeking a balance of being able to kill and not be killed. And you claim my statements are vapid, smh. Bring another argument besides: ~"you must not play a mag DK because your opinion differs from mine."

And there it is. You don't PvP on a mDK. Anyway, since you can't actually talk about mDK with any amount of specificity beyond saying things like what we're saying "differ little in overall nature from other class complaints," (Ok?) there's really no point continuing this discussion. Like I said, get some more experience open worlding as a mDK and we'll talk. Until then, this is kind of like listening to someone who has completed Maelstrom once on normal explain to me how to beat it Flawlessly on Vet (perhaps you like that analogy?). You lack the requisite experience PvPing with the class to talk to someone who has PvPed daily with the class since beta and played it when it was objectively the best class in PvP and nerfed to the worst class in PvP. I might not be the best mDK but I do know the class inside and out. You do not. So instead of watching highlight clips (watch me 1vX these 100cps who just started playing wooooo!!) and assuming you know something about a difficult class via osmosis, play it. Play it for a month or two daily and get back to me.

And by the way, no, not all classes need to sacrifice significant killing potential for survivability. mSorcs main defense, for example, scales off of their main stat giving them the best of both worlds.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Why are all the mag DKs moaning?

75% of your enemies are vampires in PVP and take 25% extra damage from your attacks.
Your resistance is the highest, you have dragon leap which is cheap, can't dodge it and hits like a truck, oh and it's a gap closer.

You have a good heal and your CCs are the best.

But no, you want a gap closer, execute and mobility too.

Lol what on Earth would be the point in playing ANY other class if we had that?

Those vamps are resisting thanks to elemental defender.

CCs are the best? in melee range maybe, but 90% of players run immovable pots, this is arguable.

Leap is a gap closer? It is an ultimate that can be blocked or dodged intime, compare it to any other cheap ulti or something that costs the same, it is not all that, not to mention the animation bugs you get stuck in half the time.

We do not "want " a gap closer, we mentioned LACKING a gap closer, it should be compensated, just like not having an execute, some compensation is worth considering.

You have very little info in how the mDk was before IC update, after and even today. You are probably being carried or running with a healer in Cyrodiil, or having some stamina guy with you while you CC and leap and he bursts.

DK is in a good spot

If being non-existent in PvP groups is a "good spot" then yeah I guess we're in a great spot.

You should actually try playing DK before commenting on its viability.

I play one and see them all the time on console. Especially in battlegrounds, mag DK specifically is very strong in battlegrounds. Not as strong as mag warden for BGs but that is almost entirely because of the healing ult.

It's arguably the weakest magicka class, even in BGs. Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. Give me a group of 3 Magplars or 3 Magblades with a Warden any day of the week.

Who said anything about holding block? Perhaps you just built yours wrong?

Slow the roll on that hyperbole and perhaps your comments could be taken more seriously.

Mag DK's in general struggle to get KB's but that in no way eliminates their value or contribution. Secondly I have played with and against a few Mag DK's that got plenty of KB's.

In contrast Sorc's in general get plenty of KB's, but I've seen a ton of them that can't deal squat for damage and just grab KB's off their allies. Getting KB's only defines performance for teenagers who cant see beyond a particular K/D ratio. Same kids who go into a BGs on NB's and ignore the objectives while exalting that they went 5-0 by ganking solo players.

Yes and no.

If you are in a group, then I agree that getting killing blows is not particularly that important as there are other things a non-killer could do productively for their team. As to whether or not the DK offers just as many "other things" comapred to other classes is a matter of debate. I think it's very difficulty to quantify that and convincingly say a DK is better. I will grant chains can be useful, talons is strong, and eruption can have a role, but is anyone going to tell me they are better than Fear, corrupting Pollen, Encase, or Breath of Life?

You say slow the role on hyperbole and then equate getting killing blows as ONLY defining performance for teenagers. Physician, heal thyself. If you are not in a group, than killing blows are tantamount to winning and losing; in the open world alone, a DK has to get killing blows and multiple amounts or else it's rez at wayshrine.

That's because I don't see DK's lacking for killing blows because of an inability to kill opponents. Rather they lack because they do not have an execute and they are on the lower end of burst, so they lose killing blows to allies that they would otherwise get solo.

In BG's you are always in a group, whether you que'd in with those players or not. I made no claim that a Mag DK was strong solo in Cyrodiil. Although I have seen a few video's of some that did quite well for themselves.

I have actually played a match with two mag DK's, one stam DK, and a NB. All four players on my team did over 800k damage and beat both opposing teams which had dedicated healers that healed for over 500k. The highest damage dealer was a Mag DK at 1.2mil. I have seen Mag DK's go 20 and 0 in BG's. No it is not common, but it isn't entirely elusive or impossible.

Yes in general Mag DK's struggle to get KB's because they lack an execute, where other setups can get KB's. Trust me I've played a lot of bow builds and bow/bow builds, I'm very familiar with struggling to get KB's. Not having a strong execute does not break a class.

Notice I said KB's not Mag DK's cannot kill other players.

Some Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYWTMIRhDU

This guy has healer die about 1min in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmnY9LBdQjA

Some group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfxPLeBm2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yL-gUtoz7Q

I'm not sure why people keep peddling this fallacious argument that the DKs pulling "1.2m damage" in BGs is somehow representative of the strengths of the class. Give me a teammate who does half as much overall damage but does it in burst windows resulting in kills any day over a DK who just spams weak AoEs and contributes little to a group's killing ability.

If you want videos, why don't you watch Kodi stream his mDK in open world. He's objectively one of the best players in the game and he'll tell you it's the weakest magicka class by a large margin.

If you hate it so much why do you even bother?

I see players not just doing okay, but excelling on Mag DK. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

An individual player may be objectively good, that in no way equates to their ability to be objective. An individual players ranking system does not objectively prove anything. All players have bias, all players have preferences and habits. Some classes and play styles come more naturally and feel easier than others to specific people.

You stated:

Kilandros wrote: »

. . .
Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. . .

I not only stated that this was false, I brought video evidence of the contrary. Mag DK's are not stuck with holding block and letting other players get kills. That is objectively false, perhaps those who build their DKs to hold block are doing this, but it is not a restriction of the class itself.

Anyone can string together selective video clips.

Of course it is selective clips.

If you want to quibble over what clips people choose to upload you need to provide a massive range of data over many characters constrained for gear, setups, group composition and opponents. Then you would need to sift the data to prove which classes are performing better over that range and what periods. Even then you couldn't possibly cover all sets, setups, or play styles.

The video's show that Mag DK's can in fact kill other players with significant proficiency. Controlling for every class, every setup, is not realistic. These videos are a rebuttal of the idea that Mag DK's can only stand around and block and hope someone else kills people.

reiverx wrote: »

I run in a small group. We are super efficient at wiping out larger groups. Everything I do on my mDK can be done better with other classes and that's the issue.

This proves literally nothing. Simply because you cannot see, are not using, or do not require the advantages of mag DK's does not equate to them having none. All this shows is that for your group and play style you have found other classes to be more beneficial.

Mag DK's have significant survivability and ability to control opposing players through Snares, roots, and CC's. They are quite capable of killing other players, as well as tanking damage, but lack an execute. As such their value grows in proportion to which the group shrinks. Which is why they are very strong in BG's, were fights are often between 3-6 players, but less so in Cyrodiil.


If you want to point out specific mechanics of Mag DK's and argue their lack of value that is a reasonable position. The argument that Mag DK's lack significantly advantageous group utility is in my opinion completely reasonable. ESO PVP is not however a zero sum game, many things are incredibly advantageous is certain scenario's while being relatively useless in others. Play style, group composition, setup, opponents, significantly effect the value of individual components.

Do you even play magicka DK? It's really easy to watch other people play it and act like you know something about the mechanics of the class. But you clearly don't understand the class. Instead you're just making vapid arguments like saying mDK are "quite capable of killing other players," yet you don't give any meaningful explanation as to why you think they are capable of killing other players. You also say things like "Mag DK's have significant survivability," but you don't explain where you think that survivability comes from. I have 3 years experience playing mDK daily, and I can tell you that our survivability comes at the expense of our capability of killing other players, and vice versa. The fact that you pretend like those two things come naturally to the class and that they come in tandem speaks to how limited your experience playing mDK in open world is. If you had some actual experience, you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Also, the fact that you rely on video clips is fairly suspect. 1vX montages and highlight reels have never been any kind of reliable indicator of class strength. I don't need to be on a particularly good class if I'm a great player and I'm fighting people who haven't yet discovered the strengths of impen, for example. Perhaps you think that those 1vX montages and highly reels are just par for the course every time a mDK logs in and goes into Cyrodiil. If that's what you think I'm afraid I can't help you. If you simply cannot live without videos, at least watch a stream of someone playing unedited fights--but relying on cherry-picked fights as being somehow indicative of what it's like to play the class when they are uploaded precisely because they are exceptional or standout clips is really quite naive. My best advice is to get a mDK and try playing it in open world to get a feel for the class. That's a far better way to understand the mechanics than watching videos and/or posting those videos in support of some nebulous argument on the forums.

I do actually play Mag DK, it is my primary tank for PVE. It isn't my primary PVP character, but I have taken it into PVP and got similar results to my other characters. I don't rely on video clips, but I can see how someone could view it that way when they have to try and find a reason for a different opinion than theirs.

I've heard all these complaints before, they differ little in overall nature from other class complaints. Mag Wardens want to kill better, Mag NB's complain about dodgeable abilities and being squishy, Mag Sorc's complain about being squishy and having to rely on shields, Mag Templar's complain about their skills being neutered and having to choose between being able to kill or able to heal.

These are the same exact arguments that Mag Templar throws out.

Kilandros wrote: »

you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Every build without exception has to sacrifice some survivability to increase their kill potential. Every player out there is seeking a balance of being able to kill and not be killed. And you claim my statements are vapid, smh. Bring another argument besides: ~"you must not play a mag DK because your opinion differs from mine."

And there it is. You don't PvP on a mDK. Anyway, since you can't actually talk about mDK with any amount of specificity beyond saying things like what we're saying "differ little in overall nature from other class complaints," (Ok?) there's really no point continuing this discussion. Like I said, get some more experience open worlding as a mDK and we'll talk. Until then, this is kind of like listening to someone who has completed Maelstrom once on normal explain to me how to beat it Flawlessly on Vet (perhaps you like that analogy?). You lack the requisite experience PvPing with the class to talk to someone who has PvPed daily with the class since beta and played it when it was objectively the best class in PvP and nerfed to the worst class in PvP. I might not be the best mDK but I do know the class inside and out. You do not. So instead of watching highlight clips (watch me 1vX these 100cps who just started playing wooooo!!) and assuming you know something about a difficult class via osmosis, play it. Play it for a month or two daily and get back to me.

And by the way, no, not all classes need to sacrifice significant killing potential for survivability. mSorcs main defense, for example, scales off of their main stat giving them the best of both worlds.

You have brought no specificity to your complaints, but expect me to be specific in my address of them? Claim to know mag DK completely but wish for me to explain the inherent benefits of the class?

You have done nothing but make broad claims, while attempting to explain away anyone who disagrees with you.

No one else gets 12% more healing just for having major armor buffs up. Only one other class even has access to Major Mending outside of Resto. No one else's get block % while also getting higher spell resistance. No one else has a CC that also roots the target after they break free. No one has a single target dot that costs less than 1k and can heal them for 60% of their health instantly on cast. No one else has an AOE interrupt.

Your complaints and system of response are entirely predicated on blaming others and claiming knowledge of them which you do not have.

You claimed that you could only block but dismiss video evidence of players doing elsewise.

Your experience does not sum total all DKs and just because you struggle does not equate to everyone must struggle.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Why are all the mag DKs moaning?

75% of your enemies are vampires in PVP and take 25% extra damage from your attacks.
Your resistance is the highest, you have dragon leap which is cheap, can't dodge it and hits like a truck, oh and it's a gap closer.

You have a good heal and your CCs are the best.

But no, you want a gap closer, execute and mobility too.

Lol what on Earth would be the point in playing ANY other class if we had that?

Those vamps are resisting thanks to elemental defender.

CCs are the best? in melee range maybe, but 90% of players run immovable pots, this is arguable.

Leap is a gap closer? It is an ultimate that can be blocked or dodged intime, compare it to any other cheap ulti or something that costs the same, it is not all that, not to mention the animation bugs you get stuck in half the time.

We do not "want " a gap closer, we mentioned LACKING a gap closer, it should be compensated, just like not having an execute, some compensation is worth considering.

You have very little info in how the mDk was before IC update, after and even today. You are probably being carried or running with a healer in Cyrodiil, or having some stamina guy with you while you CC and leap and he bursts.

DK is in a good spot

If being non-existent in PvP groups is a "good spot" then yeah I guess we're in a great spot.

You should actually try playing DK before commenting on its viability.

I play one and see them all the time on console. Especially in battlegrounds, mag DK specifically is very strong in battlegrounds. Not as strong as mag warden for BGs but that is almost entirely because of the healing ult.

It's arguably the weakest magicka class, even in BGs. Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. Give me a group of 3 Magplars or 3 Magblades with a Warden any day of the week.

Who said anything about holding block? Perhaps you just built yours wrong?

Slow the roll on that hyperbole and perhaps your comments could be taken more seriously.

Mag DK's in general struggle to get KB's but that in no way eliminates their value or contribution. Secondly I have played with and against a few Mag DK's that got plenty of KB's.

In contrast Sorc's in general get plenty of KB's, but I've seen a ton of them that can't deal squat for damage and just grab KB's off their allies. Getting KB's only defines performance for teenagers who cant see beyond a particular K/D ratio. Same kids who go into a BGs on NB's and ignore the objectives while exalting that they went 5-0 by ganking solo players.

Yes and no.

If you are in a group, then I agree that getting killing blows is not particularly that important as there are other things a non-killer could do productively for their team. As to whether or not the DK offers just as many "other things" comapred to other classes is a matter of debate. I think it's very difficulty to quantify that and convincingly say a DK is better. I will grant chains can be useful, talons is strong, and eruption can have a role, but is anyone going to tell me they are better than Fear, corrupting Pollen, Encase, or Breath of Life?

You say slow the role on hyperbole and then equate getting killing blows as ONLY defining performance for teenagers. Physician, heal thyself. If you are not in a group, than killing blows are tantamount to winning and losing; in the open world alone, a DK has to get killing blows and multiple amounts or else it's rez at wayshrine.

That's because I don't see DK's lacking for killing blows because of an inability to kill opponents. Rather they lack because they do not have an execute and they are on the lower end of burst, so they lose killing blows to allies that they would otherwise get solo.

In BG's you are always in a group, whether you que'd in with those players or not. I made no claim that a Mag DK was strong solo in Cyrodiil. Although I have seen a few video's of some that did quite well for themselves.

I have actually played a match with two mag DK's, one stam DK, and a NB. All four players on my team did over 800k damage and beat both opposing teams which had dedicated healers that healed for over 500k. The highest damage dealer was a Mag DK at 1.2mil. I have seen Mag DK's go 20 and 0 in BG's. No it is not common, but it isn't entirely elusive or impossible.

Yes in general Mag DK's struggle to get KB's because they lack an execute, where other setups can get KB's. Trust me I've played a lot of bow builds and bow/bow builds, I'm very familiar with struggling to get KB's. Not having a strong execute does not break a class.

Notice I said KB's not Mag DK's cannot kill other players.

Some Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYWTMIRhDU

This guy has healer die about 1min in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmnY9LBdQjA

Some group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfxPLeBm2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yL-gUtoz7Q

I'm not sure why people keep peddling this fallacious argument that the DKs pulling "1.2m damage" in BGs is somehow representative of the strengths of the class. Give me a teammate who does half as much overall damage but does it in burst windows resulting in kills any day over a DK who just spams weak AoEs and contributes little to a group's killing ability.

If you want videos, why don't you watch Kodi stream his mDK in open world. He's objectively one of the best players in the game and he'll tell you it's the weakest magicka class by a large margin.

If you hate it so much why do you even bother?

I see players not just doing okay, but excelling on Mag DK. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

An individual player may be objectively good, that in no way equates to their ability to be objective. An individual players ranking system does not objectively prove anything. All players have bias, all players have preferences and habits. Some classes and play styles come more naturally and feel easier than others to specific people.

You stated:

Kilandros wrote: »

. . .
Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. . .

I not only stated that this was false, I brought video evidence of the contrary. Mag DK's are not stuck with holding block and letting other players get kills. That is objectively false, perhaps those who build their DKs to hold block are doing this, but it is not a restriction of the class itself.

Anyone can string together selective video clips.

Of course it is selective clips.

If you want to quibble over what clips people choose to upload you need to provide a massive range of data over many characters constrained for gear, setups, group composition and opponents. Then you would need to sift the data to prove which classes are performing better over that range and what periods. Even then you couldn't possibly cover all sets, setups, or play styles.

The video's show that Mag DK's can in fact kill other players with significant proficiency. Controlling for every class, every setup, is not realistic. These videos are a rebuttal of the idea that Mag DK's can only stand around and block and hope someone else kills people.

reiverx wrote: »

I run in a small group. We are super efficient at wiping out larger groups. Everything I do on my mDK can be done better with other classes and that's the issue.

This proves literally nothing. Simply because you cannot see, are not using, or do not require the advantages of mag DK's does not equate to them having none. All this shows is that for your group and play style you have found other classes to be more beneficial.

Mag DK's have significant survivability and ability to control opposing players through Snares, roots, and CC's. They are quite capable of killing other players, as well as tanking damage, but lack an execute. As such their value grows in proportion to which the group shrinks. Which is why they are very strong in BG's, were fights are often between 3-6 players, but less so in Cyrodiil.


If you want to point out specific mechanics of Mag DK's and argue their lack of value that is a reasonable position. The argument that Mag DK's lack significantly advantageous group utility is in my opinion completely reasonable. ESO PVP is not however a zero sum game, many things are incredibly advantageous is certain scenario's while being relatively useless in others. Play style, group composition, setup, opponents, significantly effect the value of individual components.

Do you even play magicka DK? It's really easy to watch other people play it and act like you know something about the mechanics of the class. But you clearly don't understand the class. Instead you're just making vapid arguments like saying mDK are "quite capable of killing other players," yet you don't give any meaningful explanation as to why you think they are capable of killing other players. You also say things like "Mag DK's have significant survivability," but you don't explain where you think that survivability comes from. I have 3 years experience playing mDK daily, and I can tell you that our survivability comes at the expense of our capability of killing other players, and vice versa. The fact that you pretend like those two things come naturally to the class and that they come in tandem speaks to how limited your experience playing mDK in open world is. If you had some actual experience, you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Also, the fact that you rely on video clips is fairly suspect. 1vX montages and highlight reels have never been any kind of reliable indicator of class strength. I don't need to be on a particularly good class if I'm a great player and I'm fighting people who haven't yet discovered the strengths of impen, for example. Perhaps you think that those 1vX montages and highly reels are just par for the course every time a mDK logs in and goes into Cyrodiil. If that's what you think I'm afraid I can't help you. If you simply cannot live without videos, at least watch a stream of someone playing unedited fights--but relying on cherry-picked fights as being somehow indicative of what it's like to play the class when they are uploaded precisely because they are exceptional or standout clips is really quite naive. My best advice is to get a mDK and try playing it in open world to get a feel for the class. That's a far better way to understand the mechanics than watching videos and/or posting those videos in support of some nebulous argument on the forums.

I do actually play Mag DK, it is my primary tank for PVE. It isn't my primary PVP character, but I have taken it into PVP and got similar results to my other characters. I don't rely on video clips, but I can see how someone could view it that way when they have to try and find a reason for a different opinion than theirs.

I've heard all these complaints before, they differ little in overall nature from other class complaints. Mag Wardens want to kill better, Mag NB's complain about dodgeable abilities and being squishy, Mag Sorc's complain about being squishy and having to rely on shields, Mag Templar's complain about their skills being neutered and having to choose between being able to kill or able to heal.

These are the same exact arguments that Mag Templar throws out.

Kilandros wrote: »

you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Every build without exception has to sacrifice some survivability to increase their kill potential. Every player out there is seeking a balance of being able to kill and not be killed. And you claim my statements are vapid, smh. Bring another argument besides: ~"you must not play a mag DK because your opinion differs from mine."

And there it is. You don't PvP on a mDK. Anyway, since you can't actually talk about mDK with any amount of specificity beyond saying things like what we're saying "differ little in overall nature from other class complaints," (Ok?) there's really no point continuing this discussion. Like I said, get some more experience open worlding as a mDK and we'll talk. Until then, this is kind of like listening to someone who has completed Maelstrom once on normal explain to me how to beat it Flawlessly on Vet (perhaps you like that analogy?). You lack the requisite experience PvPing with the class to talk to someone who has PvPed daily with the class since beta and played it when it was objectively the best class in PvP and nerfed to the worst class in PvP. I might not be the best mDK but I do know the class inside and out. You do not. So instead of watching highlight clips (watch me 1vX these 100cps who just started playing wooooo!!) and assuming you know something about a difficult class via osmosis, play it. Play it for a month or two daily and get back to me.

And by the way, no, not all classes need to sacrifice significant killing potential for survivability. mSorcs main defense, for example, scales off of their main stat giving them the best of both worlds.

You have brought no specificity to your complaints, but expect me to be specific in my address of them? Claim to know mag DK completely but wish for me to explain the inherent benefits of the class?

You have done nothing but make broad claims, while attempting to explain away anyone who disagrees with you.

No one else gets 12% more healing just for having major armor buffs up. Only one other class even has access to Major Mending outside of Resto. No one else's get block % while also getting higher spell resistance. No one else has a CC that also roots the target after they break free. No one has a single target dot that costs less than 1k and can heal them for 60% of their health instantly on cast. No one else has an AOE interrupt.

Your complaints and system of response are entirely predicated on blaming others and claiming knowledge of them which you do not have.

You claimed that you could only block but dismiss video evidence of players doing elsewise.

Your experience does not sum total all DKs and just because you struggle does not equate to everyone must struggle.

Giraffon wrote: »

Sounds like I will be able to move my crafter out of Craglorn after this goes live! Great!

It's worth mentioning that you guys could probably make some money if you sold an assistant that could be placed in player homes that would give and accept crafting writs. I know it's a niche market where only crafters would be interested, but if you didn't overcharge for it, I bet it would still sell pretty good.

And while I'm on the topic, a guild banking in player housing is long over due...

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

And by the way, no, not all classes need to sacrifice significant killing potential for survivability. mSorcs main defense, for example, scales off of their main stat giving them the best of both worlds.

Sounds like your jelly of mag sorcs.

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Why are all the mag DKs moaning?

75% of your enemies are vampires in PVP and take 25% extra damage from your attacks.
Your resistance is the highest, you have dragon leap which is cheap, can't dodge it and hits like a truck, oh and it's a gap closer.

You have a good heal and your CCs are the best.

But no, you want a gap closer, execute and mobility too.

Lol what on Earth would be the point in playing ANY other class if we had that?

Those vamps are resisting thanks to elemental defender.

CCs are the best? in melee range maybe, but 90% of players run immovable pots, this is arguable.

Leap is a gap closer? It is an ultimate that can be blocked or dodged intime, compare it to any other cheap ulti or something that costs the same, it is not all that, not to mention the animation bugs you get stuck in half the time.

We do not "want " a gap closer, we mentioned LACKING a gap closer, it should be compensated, just like not having an execute, some compensation is worth considering.

You have very little info in how the mDk was before IC update, after and even today. You are probably being carried or running with a healer in Cyrodiil, or having some stamina guy with you while you CC and leap and he bursts.

DK is in a good spot

If being non-existent in PvP groups is a "good spot" then yeah I guess we're in a great spot.

You should actually try playing DK before commenting on its viability.

I play one and see them all the time on console. Especially in battlegrounds, mag DK specifically is very strong in battlegrounds. Not as strong as mag warden for BGs but that is almost entirely because of the healing ult.

It's arguably the weakest magicka class, even in BGs. Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. Give me a group of 3 Magplars or 3 Magblades with a Warden any day of the week.

Who said anything about holding block? Perhaps you just built yours wrong?

Slow the roll on that hyperbole and perhaps your comments could be taken more seriously.

Mag DK's in general struggle to get KB's but that in no way eliminates their value or contribution. Secondly I have played with and against a few Mag DK's that got plenty of KB's.

In contrast Sorc's in general get plenty of KB's, but I've seen a ton of them that can't deal squat for damage and just grab KB's off their allies. Getting KB's only defines performance for teenagers who cant see beyond a particular K/D ratio. Same kids who go into a BGs on NB's and ignore the objectives while exalting that they went 5-0 by ganking solo players.

Yes and no.

If you are in a group, then I agree that getting killing blows is not particularly that important as there are other things a non-killer could do productively for their team. As to whether or not the DK offers just as many "other things" comapred to other classes is a matter of debate. I think it's very difficulty to quantify that and convincingly say a DK is better. I will grant chains can be useful, talons is strong, and eruption can have a role, but is anyone going to tell me they are better than Fear, corrupting Pollen, Encase, or Breath of Life?

You say slow the role on hyperbole and then equate getting killing blows as ONLY defining performance for teenagers. Physician, heal thyself. If you are not in a group, than killing blows are tantamount to winning and losing; in the open world alone, a DK has to get killing blows and multiple amounts or else it's rez at wayshrine.

That's because I don't see DK's lacking for killing blows because of an inability to kill opponents. Rather they lack because they do not have an execute and they are on the lower end of burst, so they lose killing blows to allies that they would otherwise get solo.

In BG's you are always in a group, whether you que'd in with those players or not. I made no claim that a Mag DK was strong solo in Cyrodiil. Although I have seen a few video's of some that did quite well for themselves.

I have actually played a match with two mag DK's, one stam DK, and a NB. All four players on my team did over 800k damage and beat both opposing teams which had dedicated healers that healed for over 500k. The highest damage dealer was a Mag DK at 1.2mil. I have seen Mag DK's go 20 and 0 in BG's. No it is not common, but it isn't entirely elusive or impossible.

Yes in general Mag DK's struggle to get KB's because they lack an execute, where other setups can get KB's. Trust me I've played a lot of bow builds and bow/bow builds, I'm very familiar with struggling to get KB's. Not having a strong execute does not break a class.

Notice I said KB's not Mag DK's cannot kill other players.

Some Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYWTMIRhDU

This guy has healer die about 1min in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmnY9LBdQjA

Some group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfxPLeBm2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yL-gUtoz7Q

I'm not sure why people keep peddling this fallacious argument that the DKs pulling "1.2m damage" in BGs is somehow representative of the strengths of the class. Give me a teammate who does half as much overall damage but does it in burst windows resulting in kills any day over a DK who just spams weak AoEs and contributes little to a group's killing ability.

If you want videos, why don't you watch Kodi stream his mDK in open world. He's objectively one of the best players in the game and he'll tell you it's the weakest magicka class by a large margin.

If you hate it so much why do you even bother?

I see players not just doing okay, but excelling on Mag DK. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

An individual player may be objectively good, that in no way equates to their ability to be objective. An individual players ranking system does not objectively prove anything. All players have bias, all players have preferences and habits. Some classes and play styles come more naturally and feel easier than others to specific people.

You stated:

Kilandros wrote: »

. . .
Just because people can hold block while their teammates get KBs doesn't mean it's a strong class. . .

I not only stated that this was false, I brought video evidence of the contrary. Mag DK's are not stuck with holding block and letting other players get kills. That is objectively false, perhaps those who build their DKs to hold block are doing this, but it is not a restriction of the class itself.

Anyone can string together selective video clips.

Of course it is selective clips.

If you want to quibble over what clips people choose to upload you need to provide a massive range of data over many characters constrained for gear, setups, group composition and opponents. Then you would need to sift the data to prove which classes are performing better over that range and what periods. Even then you couldn't possibly cover all sets, setups, or play styles.

The video's show that Mag DK's can in fact kill other players with significant proficiency. Controlling for every class, every setup, is not realistic. These videos are a rebuttal of the idea that Mag DK's can only stand around and block and hope someone else kills people.

reiverx wrote: »

I run in a small group. We are super efficient at wiping out larger groups. Everything I do on my mDK can be done better with other classes and that's the issue.

This proves literally nothing. Simply because you cannot see, are not using, or do not require the advantages of mag DK's does not equate to them having none. All this shows is that for your group and play style you have found other classes to be more beneficial.

Mag DK's have significant survivability and ability to control opposing players through Snares, roots, and CC's. They are quite capable of killing other players, as well as tanking damage, but lack an execute. As such their value grows in proportion to which the group shrinks. Which is why they are very strong in BG's, were fights are often between 3-6 players, but less so in Cyrodiil.


If you want to point out specific mechanics of Mag DK's and argue their lack of value that is a reasonable position. The argument that Mag DK's lack significantly advantageous group utility is in my opinion completely reasonable. ESO PVP is not however a zero sum game, many things are incredibly advantageous is certain scenario's while being relatively useless in others. Play style, group composition, setup, opponents, significantly effect the value of individual components.

Do you even play magicka DK? It's really easy to watch other people play it and act like you know something about the mechanics of the class. But you clearly don't understand the class. Instead you're just making vapid arguments like saying mDK are "quite capable of killing other players," yet you don't give any meaningful explanation as to why you think they are capable of killing other players. You also say things like "Mag DK's have significant survivability," but you don't explain where you think that survivability comes from. I have 3 years experience playing mDK daily, and I can tell you that our survivability comes at the expense of our capability of killing other players, and vice versa. The fact that you pretend like those two things come naturally to the class and that they come in tandem speaks to how limited your experience playing mDK in open world is. If you had some actual experience, you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Also, the fact that you rely on video clips is fairly suspect. 1vX montages and highlight reels have never been any kind of reliable indicator of class strength. I don't need to be on a particularly good class if I'm a great player and I'm fighting people who haven't yet discovered the strengths of impen, for example. Perhaps you think that those 1vX montages and highly reels are just par for the course every time a mDK logs in and goes into Cyrodiil. If that's what you think I'm afraid I can't help you. If you simply cannot live without videos, at least watch a stream of someone playing unedited fights--but relying on cherry-picked fights as being somehow indicative of what it's like to play the class when they are uploaded precisely because they are exceptional or standout clips is really quite naive. My best advice is to get a mDK and try playing it in open world to get a feel for the class. That's a far better way to understand the mechanics than watching videos and/or posting those videos in support of some nebulous argument on the forums.

I do actually play Mag DK, it is my primary tank for PVE. It isn't my primary PVP character, but I have taken it into PVP and got similar results to my other characters. I don't rely on video clips, but I can see how someone could view it that way when they have to try and find a reason for a different opinion than theirs.

I've heard all these complaints before, they differ little in overall nature from other class complaints. Mag Wardens want to kill better, Mag NB's complain about dodgeable abilities and being squishy, Mag Sorc's complain about being squishy and having to rely on shields, Mag Templar's complain about their skills being neutered and having to choose between being able to kill or able to heal.

These are the same exact arguments that Mag Templar throws out.

Kilandros wrote: »

you would know that as a mDK to have good survivability you often have very limited kill potential. And that to have high kill potential, you have very limited survivability because you have neither the slippery mechanics of a NB nor the mobility of a Sorc.

Every build without exception has to sacrifice some survivability to increase their kill potential. Every player out there is seeking a balance of being able to kill and not be killed. And you claim my statements are vapid, smh. Bring another argument besides: ~"you must not play a mag DK because your opinion differs from mine."

And there it is. You don't PvP on a mDK. Anyway, since you can't actually talk about mDK with any amount of specificity beyond saying things like what we're saying "differ little in overall nature from other class complaints," (Ok?) there's really no point continuing this discussion. Like I said, get some more experience open worlding as a mDK and we'll talk. Until then, this is kind of like listening to someone who has completed Maelstrom once on normal explain to me how to beat it Flawlessly on Vet (perhaps you like that analogy?). You lack the requisite experience PvPing with the class to talk to someone who has PvPed daily with the class since beta and played it when it was objectively the best class in PvP and nerfed to the worst class in PvP. I might not be the best mDK but I do know the class inside and out. You do not. So instead of watching highlight clips (watch me 1vX these 100cps who just started playing wooooo!!) and assuming you know something about a difficult class via osmosis, play it. Play it for a month or two daily and get back to me.

And by the way, no, not all classes need to sacrifice significant killing potential for survivability. mSorcs main defense, for example, scales off of their main stat giving them the best of both worlds.

You have brought no specificity to your complaints, but expect me to be specific in my address of them? Claim to know mag DK completely but wish for me to explain the inherent benefits of the class?

You have done nothing but make broad claims, while attempting to explain away anyone who disagrees with you.

No one else gets 12% more healing just for having major armor buffs up. Only one other class even has access to Major Mending outside of Resto. No one else's get block % while also getting higher spell resistance. No one else has a CC that also roots the target after they break free. No one has a single target dot that costs less than 1k and can heal them for 60% of their health instantly on cast. No one else has an AOE interrupt.

Your complaints and system of response are entirely predicated on blaming others and claiming knowledge of them which you do not have.

You claimed that you could only block but dismiss video evidence of players doing elsewise.

Your experience does not sum total all DKs and just because you struggle does not equate to everyone must struggle.

Anyone can run through a list of a classes skills and passives and say well nobody else has that.

Weak stuff.

It is so painfully obvious you have no experience at all with mDK. And this is part of the problem. You assume.

The only thing that is painfully obvious is the great lengths people go through to promote their biased views. I dont have to assume I have experience.

Those are unqiue advantages for the Mag DK. Arguments over their validity or invalidity are reasonable. Blank assumptions of others experience as your argument are pathetic and wildly inaccurate.

But its not surprising that you would hold such a view. The common rabble also believe VMA is really hard and bow builds are incapable of everything.

When you cant compete you come up with all sorts of reasons to justify why.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I have a question for you about the Golden Vendor; has the loot table been updated?

Specifically, will I now have a chance to acquire Gold Vampire Lord jewelry?