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Can we talk about the bad sorc balancing?
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Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Let me put it this way. Do you really believe that a change to a certain ability that every class can use, would have the same effects/consequences for each class? Because if your answer is yes, you are completely missing the context, i.e. classes with different abilities and dynamics.ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
Lel at delusional people who can't admit their class is getting over buffed and want to play ez mode.
lel at somebody who doesn't understand most of us play every class (except in my case I just can't bring myself to play Templar). My sorc isn't even my most OP character, it's my magblade.
Have you ever heard of the word context?ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
I mean most of this is literally starting over a staff that anyone can use adjusting an ability that anyone can use. It boggles my mind!ParaNostram wrote: »I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
No. The negate and therefore Sorcs would still be OP according to the forum.
I know right?
I have. Could you maybe provide some?
1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Let me put it this way. Do you really believe that a change to a certain ability that every class can use, would have the same effects/consequences for each class? Because if your answer is yes, you are completely missing the context, i.e. classes with different abilities and dynamics.ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
Lel at delusional people who can't admit their class is getting over buffed and want to play ez mode.
lel at somebody who doesn't understand most of us play every class (except in my case I just can't bring myself to play Templar). My sorc isn't even my most OP character, it's my magblade.
Have you ever heard of the word context?ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
I mean most of this is literally starting over a staff that anyone can use adjusting an ability that anyone can use. It boggles my mind!ParaNostram wrote: »I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
No. The negate and therefore Sorcs would still be OP according to the forum.
I know right?
I have. Could you maybe provide some?
Yes and I also illustrated how the other classes can benefit from this without much trade off. I'll quote myself for you to make it easier.ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Karmanorway wrote: »I mean seriously? Sorc, the class that has to give up very little for tankiness, mobility and damage, now is the tied best CCer in the game. I don't think they are god mode, burst is manageable, and I don't want every bit of it nerfed like pleebs, but they are definitely the most overpowered class now.
Let papa go through comparisons:
Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can facetank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak.
Which brings me to... Shield stacking, its definitely possible to keep shields up constantly, as it has none of the penalties of block/roll or no shield defile, no regen blocks or repetitive cost increases. Also none of the counters, where is the attacks that goes through only shields (Oblivion/bleed ignores everything, cost poisons affect everyone) One of its main counters is in a set, great if you want to counter a sorc, nope, you might decimate the sorc, but you become potato to everyone without shields. The CP tree against shields gets a half mark, it doesn't fully counter them, more so depends on your damage. Something like siphoner to counterract the extra shield strength from bastion
How about, conversion costing more to interrupt than to be interrupted. Nope, too difficult to add some risk/reward to it. Too hard for FOTYers.
Also the auto execute, DK/warden get effectively nothing. Why?
If the rune prison change is added, then its just incredibly silly. Discuss.
I dont get it, if sorcerers are so OP , why are less ppl playing that class? And i have a magsorc myself, when a stam pvper gets up close to me and start spamming uppercut on me im pretty much screwed, so i for one thinks the rune prison buff is a good and fair thing,
Seriously, people keep saying sorcs are so OP, but the majority of the people I run into in Cyrodiil play stam builds.
I recommend a lot of the "sorcs are OP" people try to actually play a sorc in Cyrodiil, and not run in a zerg. It isn't as easy as you think.
To be fair, Sorc is as easy as it gets solo.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT8 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT14 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.Edited by ParaNostram on September 19, 2017 4:25PM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm3 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I wish sorc had a class spammable too. I wish Stam sorc and Stam dk did too.
The fact of the matter is sorc is top tier in PvP as it is. Easy access to two powerful buffs is too much. Huge uptime with no sacrifice as it part of their spammable.
Mag sorc is my most played character in PvP. I've spent more time on it than anything else. So it's not like I hate sorcs and want them nerfed into the ground. I honestly just think this staff will push them to another level. One which I really don't think they need.
Huge uptime on minor maim is incredibly strong with shields. I think wizards riposte is too strong, but that's another issue entirely.4 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't think Zos has a bias towards any specific class. While I do think a guiding point is that if anything is op in cyrodiil you'll find a significant number of people utilizing it, at times it can simply be the perception that something is op. The fact is fighting any player with a solid grip on the mechanics of their class is going to be a challenge. Yes, there are sorcs that crutch on streak and shields, but there are nbs who crutch on cloak and templars who crutch on BoL. In my opinion, being able to disappear immediately in front of someone is pretty damn OP, as is having a spammable and powerful heal in BoL, and major heroism and cheap trees for wardens, but there are counters to them all. I'm not suggesting that sorcs don't need a tuning, as I do believe they do, but I think a lot of things need tuning in this game. Focusing on sorcs misses that larger point.
I'm amazed trees did not get nerfed. I have that up almost constantly on my Stam warden and it's flat out broken.4 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yea ok.. your post simply says that sorc has no other choice for a spammable. And that pulse can have its place in the rotation of other classes as wel, such as magblade. What it doesn't however, is take into account how the changes will effect the output of damage and burst in pvp, from sorcs in specific. Magsorc already has really strong burst, which is also easy to pull off. This change just makes it even better for them. Why was this needed? I mean they even had a damage nerf to frags some time ago.. Yes, mag nbs have insanely strong burst as well, but it takes considerably more effort to pull off effectively. It seems clear to me that sorcerers will get the most benefit out of this change.ParaNostram wrote: »
Let me put it this way. Do you really believe that a change to a certain ability that every class can use, would have the same effects/consequences for each class? Because if your answer is yes, you are completely missing the context, i.e. classes with different abilities and dynamics.ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
Lel at delusional people who can't admit their class is getting over buffed and want to play ez mode.
lel at somebody who doesn't understand most of us play every class (except in my case I just can't bring myself to play Templar). My sorc isn't even my most OP character, it's my magblade.
Have you ever heard of the word context?ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
I mean most of this is literally starting over a staff that anyone can use adjusting an ability that anyone can use. It boggles my mind!ParaNostram wrote: »I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
No. The negate and therefore Sorcs would still be OP according to the forum.
I know right?
I have. Could you maybe provide some?
Yes and I also illustrated how the other classes can benefit from this without much trade off. I'll quote myself for you to make it easier.ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I agree with you that giving sorcs their own spammable would be better, but that isn't relevant to this discussion I think.
1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.
Again no hate for staff. But sorcs has long frontal talons, dots are eh in pvp reflect that sometimes doesn't work, costs 4k mag for only 4 s or 4 projectiles, whichever is shorter, and many projectiles completely ignore it. And heals, which unlike shields can be defiled.
Oh yeah, and the worst mobility, and eh burst.Edited by ak_pvp on September 19, 2017 4:32PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.5 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I wish sorc had a class spammable too. I wish Stam sorc and Stam dk did too.
The fact of the matter is sorc is top tier in PvP as it is. Easy access to two powerful buffs is too much. Huge uptime with no sacrifice as it part of their spammable.
Mag sorc is my most played character in PvP. I've spent more time on it than anything else. So it's not like I hate sorcs and want them nerfed into the ground. I honestly just think this staff will push them to another level. One which I really don't think they need.
Huge uptime on minor maim is incredibly strong with shields. I think wizards riposte is too strong, but that's another issue entirely.
Sorc is my most played char aswell.
Imo it does not compete with magblade at the moment. Magblade straightup does anythign a sorc can better execept for streak.
I don´t think the staff will be an issue at all - especially when put into perspective of other weapons getting introduced (nature of that being those other weapons all being stamina based).
If something about sorc is an issue next patch it´s being able to stun someone to guarantee a fragment hit unblocked. The staff is nothing compared to that.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sigh.... here we go again...
Q to sorcs..
What ability are you all gonna give up for the new rune-cage? Lets look at my bars (DW/resto)..::
Wrath? Nope - necessary part of burst
Frags? Nope - the whole point of run-cage would be to land that frag
Hardened? Nope - kind of need that to not die
Twilight Matriarch? Necessary for stat padding and my only heal - so, nope..
Inner light.. Necessary to add to that burst.. sometimes even finds stealthers so nope..
Could maybe put it on my backbar?
Curse? Nope - still kind of essential for DW burst..
Frag? hm, with no spammable - you NEED regular frag procs for regular burst
Harness? What y'all gonna cry about if I can't shield-stack?
Pet (again) - see above.
Streak? Again, what y'all gonna cry about if I can't instantly move from melee into gap-close range?
Hmmm.. I think I'll give up...... nothing. There is nothing I CAN give up.
New destro staff.. Regardless of class, it is plain BS that they added a BiS PVP weapon that you have to do trials to get.
If its so good - every mg class will use it (not just sorcs) - bye bye build diversity. If it's not good enough to replace your existing class spammable - then don't complain about it...
@Biro123 On the topic of Rune Cage, I already do Meteor > Rune Cage, so the duration change won't mean squat. The only difference now is people can't passively dodge the stun with Shuffle RNG ^_^Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.3 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yea ok.. your post simply says that sorc has no other choice for a spammable. And that pulse can have its place in the rotation of other classes as wel, such as magblade. What it doesn't however, is take into account how the changes will effect the output of damage and burst in pvp, from sorcs in specific. Magsorc already has really strong burst, which is also easy to pull off. This change just makes it even better for them. Why was this needed? I mean they even had a damage nerf to frags some time ago.. Yes, mag nbs have insanely strong burst as well, but it takes considerably more effort to pull off effectively. It seems clear to me that sorcerers will get the most benefit out of this change.ParaNostram wrote: »
Let me put it this way. Do you really believe that a change to a certain ability that every class can use, would have the same effects/consequences for each class? Because if your answer is yes, you are completely missing the context, i.e. classes with different abilities and dynamics.ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
Lel at delusional people who can't admit their class is getting over buffed and want to play ez mode.
lel at somebody who doesn't understand most of us play every class (except in my case I just can't bring myself to play Templar). My sorc isn't even my most OP character, it's my magblade.
Have you ever heard of the word context?ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.
The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.
To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.
Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%
Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards
Dodge roll - a mechanic available to anyone.
Blocking - a mechanic available to anyone.
Damage and healing - something every build does.
Streak is the only class specific ability with an increasing cost mechanic built into it. Do you want to counter people streaking off and dark dealing? Simple. If you're a stamina user, you *gasp* charge onto them and then interrupt the 1 second long channel. Result of that streak then? They just spent magicka and time and you're still on them.
It's all about actually playing with an inkling of skill and intelligence. A skilled sorc knows when to use streak and how to get away using it given how to streak more than once is a considerable magicka cost. Is it a useful skill? Yes it is. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes it does. Imagine if some other ability had an anti-spam cost increasing mechanic. Imagine if dark cloak got that. It would be ridiculous.
You want to beat a sorc? You beat them the same way you beat anyone else - positioning, playing smart, timing your burst, punishing their mistakes, and knowing what their tool kit is. I kill sorcs all the time on all of my characters yet people act like it's some easy I win button because they got hit by a few big sorc bursts. Good lord, mag wardens have an easier to set up instant kill burst. Nightblades of any sort have some of the best burst potential in the game. DKs can just melt people if played right. Templars still drop a house on you and punish you for being in their house. Just stop this nonsense.
I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
Well said.
And lol at delusional people saying the devs have a class bias.
I mean most of this is literally starting over a staff that anyone can use adjusting an ability that anyone can use. It boggles my mind!ParaNostram wrote: »I swear ya'll won't be happy until sorcs go back to being just negates in PvP, so useless at everything but that negate ult is nice.
No. The negate and therefore Sorcs would still be OP according to the forum.
I know right?
I have. Could you maybe provide some?
Yes and I also illustrated how the other classes can benefit from this without much trade off. I'll quote myself for you to make it easier.ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I agree with you that giving sorcs their own spammable would be better, but that isn't relevant to this discussion I think.
But these increases in burst ability can be used effectively by any class. A Magden could set up their entire burst within the 4 seconds that the staff proc is up. It is plenty relevant to the discussion. The only way sorcs benefit from force pulse is having a spammable they can use to proc frags that's the reason why it's used. Adding force pulse onto your rotation won't make your in kit spammables any worse. In fact, the same additional 8% damage will be applied to those abilities. You'll still take the decreased damage. You'll still put the fire dot on them. It's effectively just turning force pulse into something useful in the same line as say a weapon damage glyph."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.
Would love to see you actually try to play a mDK with Crushing Shock. It's hard to take you seriously when you clearly have little to no experience with the classes you're attempting to compare Sorcs to. They aren't interchangeable. You can't just throw a Destro on a DK and voila you're a Sorc. Your argument which essentially boils down to "everyone has access to Force Pulse" is at best lazy and uninformed as to how classes actually play out in Cyrodiil. None of the other classes can land burst that ignores global cooldowns like Sorc. If you don't know that by now you either (A) Don't know how to play Sorc or (B) Don't know how to play anything but Sorc. If you're just another zergling and you're speaking from the perspective of spamming Force Pulse behind a zerg and having fun, just say so and we can be done with it.
One of the things that has kept Sorc fairly balanced is the lack of a strong class spammable (though Force Pulse is pretty strong for a spammable). Sorc has made up for that with the highest burst from skills that can be timed to ignore global cooldowns. No other class can deal as much instant burst damage as a Sorc who lands Curse/Frag/Fury/Ulti combo. So it makes sense that the filler skill (Force Pulse) not be OP. This Asylum weapon is going to add so much pressure to Force Pulse alone that it's going to be completely over the top with the rest of Sorc's toolkit.
Also, you don't see other classes moaning for this weapon to go Live. That's because other classes know they can't do with Force Pulse what Sorc can do with Force Pulse. That alone should tell you something. I'm honestly exhausted of the Sorcs who each and every patch refuse to see the strengths in their own class and act like it's somehow hard to play. It's literally the easiest class to play solo.Edited by Kilandros on September 19, 2017 4:38PMInvictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT9 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elder Sorcs Online- Cheaper ultimates
- Cheaper use of both magicka/stamina skills
- Top tier sustain
- Shield stacking
- Passive execute
- Active AOE execute
- Best mobility in game
I mean, wtf Zos? Is there any point playing any other class?
maybe templar for heal in PVE cause when we don't talk about DPS this become " Elder templar online " ?
Same thing when you want to tank in PVE , this become " Elder DK online " .
cheaper use of magicka skills ? this make me lol.Edited by Apherius on September 19, 2017 4:42PM0 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like how sorc players resort to stupid *** like "but you are rooted during the cast" (lel) to defend the fact that streak is an order of magnitude better mobility skill than any other class has.5 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I wish sorc had a class spammable too. I wish Stam sorc and Stam dk did too.
The fact of the matter is sorc is top tier in PvP as it is. Easy access to two powerful buffs is too much. Huge uptime with no sacrifice as it part of their spammable.
Mag sorc is my most played character in PvP. I've spent more time on it than anything else. So it's not like I hate sorcs and want them nerfed into the ground. I honestly just think this staff will push them to another level. One which I really don't think they need.
Huge uptime on minor maim is incredibly strong with shields. I think wizards riposte is too strong, but that's another issue entirely.
Sorc is my most played char aswell.
Imo it does not compete with magblade at the moment. Magblade straightup does anything a sorc can better except for streak.
I don´t think the staff will be an issue at all - especially when put into perspective of other weapons getting introduced (nature of that being those other weapons all being stamina based).
If something about sorc is an issue next patch it´s being able to stun someone to guarantee a fragment hit unblocked. The staff is nothing compared to that.
Funnily enough, mageblade is my second most played.
I usually play solo/outnumbered. Magica NB has huge burst potential, you're right. But to achieve that burst is a lot harder than a sorc. You can proc a frag instantly on a fight and do good damage. A mageblade has to connect 5 light attacks. If a target dodges merciless, you start again. Sorc can have 3 proceed frag in that time. Even when being defensive.
The extra shield and streak are also much better survival tools than cloak. Conjured is guaranteed defence. Cloak is easilly broken or countered. Mageblade is really good, but sorc is another animal imo. Let's not forget curse and a 4 second execute. But I'm not saying they're op, but they make sorc a really strong class. Making them have these strong buffs without no sacrifice to skill loadout and rotation is too much imo and is going to cause huge issues if it goes live.
And even if every magica player uses it, look how many people will have huge uptime on two really strong buffs. From a 1 piece and 1 skill (which is easy to weave and does decent damage). That's still an issue.
The 2h is an issue as well, you're right. A stamblade can kill a guy with it for 35 instant ult, 44 if a vamp/we. That's just under to a bit over half of incap. That's a huge problem too. But this is a sorc thread, hence me talking about the staff.
My problem isn't with sorcs, it's the staff. It's just it will synergise too good with a sorc. Same with Templars, how everyone says their healing is too strong. It's the fact they synergise with heavy and things like troll king so so well. It isn't the healing that's the issue, it's the sets and mechanics ZOS put in the game without thinking about how they will work in specific situations.Edited by Brrrofski on September 19, 2017 4:48PM4 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.
Would love to see you actually try to play a mDK with Crushing Shock. It's hard to take you seriously when you clearly have little to no experience with the classes you're attempting to compare Sorcs to. They aren't interchangeable. You can't just throw a Destro on a DK and voila you're a Sorc. Your argument which essentially boils down to "everyone has access to Force Pulse" is at best lazy and uninformed as to how classes actually play out in Cyrodiil. None of the other classes can land burst that ignores global cooldowns like Sorc. If you don't know that by now you either (A) Don't know how to play Sorc or (B) Don't know how to play anything but Sorc. If you're just another zergling and you're speaking from the perspective of spamming Force Pulse behind a zerg and having fun, just say so and we can be done with it.
One of the things that has kept Sorc fairly balanced is the lack of a strong class spammable (though Force Pulse is pretty strong for a spammable). Sorc has made up for that with the highest burst from skills that can be timed to ignore global cooldowns. No other class can deal as much instant burst damage as a Sorc who lands Curse/Frag/Fury/Ulti combo. So it makes sense that the filler skill (Force Pulse) not be OP. This Asylum weapon is going to add so much pressure to Force Pulse alone that it's going to be completely over the top with the rest of Sorc's toolkit.
Also, you don't see other classes moaning for this weapon to go Live. That's because other classes know they can't do with Force Pulse what Sorc can do with Force Pulse. That alone should tell you something. I'm honestly exhausted of the Sorcs who each and every patch refuse to see the strengths in their own class and act like it's somehow hard to play. It's literally the easiest class to play solo.
I'm not saying they're the same for crying out loud! Ugh! I'm not trying to turn DKs or Magblades or anything into sorcs! Can we stop putting words in my mouth? I'm getting really, REALLY frustrated with this BS.
Not to mention that blatantly ad hominem "oh you don't agree with me clearly you just don't play as these other classes". I do! I have! I've even made for fun magknight builds with force pulse as the spammable and guess what? It didn't perform as well as the meta so I wouldn't even say replace your spammable with force pulse. I know the limitations of the classes I do theory crafting all the time to create different and fun and unique builds. I try things, and I learn.
Everyone has access to force pulse, that is my argument, but you misunderstand what my argument means. It means use the force pulse once every 4 or 5 seconds to proc the staff, then keep using your usual stuff. Hell, don't want to use a destro staff as your DPS bar? Put it on your back bar, make it infused with the weapon damage enchantment, the force pulse will proc the staff and enchantment, swap back to your regular bar and voila look at that you're back to your normal rotation and damage for those couple seconds. Seeing how in PvP battles are often won in couple second burst moments, you benefit just as much.
I'm literally just saying the staff is something you can use force pulse once to proc the effects and go back to business as usual. Come on. Getting tired and frustrated.
Edit: Also your "nobody can land bursts that ignore global cooldowns like sorcs" comment, I have two words... Magicka Warden.Edited by ParaNostram on September 19, 2017 4:48PM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm4 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. Vast majority of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (99% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. If that. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't god mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
I don't think they meant to buff sorcs. I jus think they don't PvP in their own game so don't realise the implications of this staff. I think it's an honest mistake, but a huge one if it goes live.
I agree. And PVP can't realistically be tested on PTS. You can duel and set up mini fights but it is not a good representation. ZOS certainly can't test open world Cyro in their offices either. Long time PVP'ers know exactly how this stuff will be used and abused.
Sorc's now having a superior ranged version of fossilize is possibly a bigger sorc buff than the new staff. At least other classes can use the new staff in theory. Magblades should get some mileage out of it. But we won't really know until 30 days into live on PVP how bad it is, and then when/if it gets "fixed" PVE'ers will be upset at having a toy taken away from them (that they never should have had) because of PVP.
P.S. The 2H Asylum weapon is insanely OP too.Edited by NBrookus on September 19, 2017 4:51PM2 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. Vast majority of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (99% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. If that. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't god mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
I don't think they meant to buff sorcs. I jus think they don't PvP in their own game so don't realise the implications of this staff. I think it's an honest mistake, but a huge one if it goes live.
P.S. The 2H Asylum weapon is insanely OP too.
Yes but magsorcs don't use 2h weapons so why would the forums QQ about that?"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm4 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.
Would love to see you actually try to play a mDK with Crushing Shock. It's hard to take you seriously when you clearly have little to no experience with the classes you're attempting to compare Sorcs to. They aren't interchangeable. You can't just throw a Destro on a DK and voila you're a Sorc. Your argument which essentially boils down to "everyone has access to Force Pulse" is at best lazy and uninformed as to how classes actually play out in Cyrodiil. None of the other classes can land burst that ignores global cooldowns like Sorc. If you don't know that by now you either (A) Don't know how to play Sorc or (B) Don't know how to play anything but Sorc. If you're just another zergling and you're speaking from the perspective of spamming Force Pulse behind a zerg and having fun, just say so and we can be done with it.
One of the things that has kept Sorc fairly balanced is the lack of a strong class spammable (though Force Pulse is pretty strong for a spammable). Sorc has made up for that with the highest burst from skills that can be timed to ignore global cooldowns. No other class can deal as much instant burst damage as a Sorc who lands Curse/Frag/Fury/Ulti combo. So it makes sense that the filler skill (Force Pulse) not be OP. This Asylum weapon is going to add so much pressure to Force Pulse alone that it's going to be completely over the top with the rest of Sorc's toolkit.
Also, you don't see other classes moaning for this weapon to go Live. That's because other classes know they can't do with Force Pulse what Sorc can do with Force Pulse. That alone should tell you something. I'm honestly exhausted of the Sorcs who each and every patch refuse to see the strengths in their own class and act like it's somehow hard to play. It's literally the easiest class to play solo.
I'm not saying they're the same for crying out loud! Ugh! I'm not trying to turn DKs or Magblades or anything into sorcs! Can we stop putting words in my mouth? I'm getting really, REALLY frustrated with this BS.
Not to mention that blatantly ad hominem "oh you don't agree with me clearly you just don't play as these other classes". I do! I have! I've even made for fun magknight builds with force pulse as the spammable and guess what? It didn't perform as well as the meta so I wouldn't even say replace your spammable with force pulse. I know the limitations of the classes I do theory crafting all the time to create different and fun and unique builds. I try things, and I learn.
Everyone has access to force pulse, that is my argument, but you misunderstand what my argument means. It means use the force pulse once every 4 or 5 seconds to proc the staff, then keep using your usual stuff. Hell, don't want to use a destro staff as your DPS bar? Put it on your back bar, make it infused with the weapon damage enchantment, the force pulse will proc the staff and enchantment, swap back to your regular bar and voila look at that you're back to your normal rotation and damage for those couple seconds. Seeing how in PvP battles are often won in couple second burst moments, you benefit just as much.
I'm literally just saying the staff is something you can use force pulse once to proc the effects and go back to business as usual. Come on. Getting tired and frustrated.
Edit: Also your "nobody can land bursts that ignore global cooldowns like sorcs" comment, I have two words... Magicka Warden.
Your frustration isn't because I don't understand what you're trying to say--I do--you're becoming frustrated because you aren't listening to what I'm saying. You're ignoring the Synergy Force Pulse has with the Sorc toolkit. That's the issue. You can't just shoehorn Force Pulse into the rotation on a different class and expect similar results. If you can't see that, then we're at an impasse.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT5 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
LOL at this comparison of the classes. Yes, DK is JUST LIKE SORC with Crushing Shock. Except without Crystal Frags. And without an Execute. Oh and without unblockable Curse. Oh right and without mobility. Yeah guys, everyone can use Crushing Shock just as effectively as Sorc!!111
These are some low-quality posts you're putting out there.
Oh yes and instead magknights have a root that can keep people thoroughly in place, impressive dots, the ability to reflect spells, and a spammable that heals themselves for a giant chunk, and another dot that heals for an impressive chunk.
See? We both can just list things that are in the class' kit.
Here's what all classes get from this staff... All three status effects thrown onto the enemy. Tell me, what build wouldn't benefit from doing 8% increased damage to something, taking 15% decreased damage from them, and putting on a not insignificant fire dot? Cuz that is the literal only thing that's changed with that staff.
If you can't see how this can benefit every class then I don't know what to tell you.
Edit: I even offered an example of what it looks like using force pulse on an off rotation just to apply those status effects while still using BETTER SPAMMABLE ABILITIES! Wanna know why no other class uses force pulse usually? Because every other class has a better option than it, that option still remains and can still be used in conjunction with the staff's proc.
Would love to see you actually try to play a mDK with Crushing Shock. It's hard to take you seriously when you clearly have little to no experience with the classes you're attempting to compare Sorcs to. They aren't interchangeable. You can't just throw a Destro on a DK and voila you're a Sorc. Your argument which essentially boils down to "everyone has access to Force Pulse" is at best lazy and uninformed as to how classes actually play out in Cyrodiil. None of the other classes can land burst that ignores global cooldowns like Sorc. If you don't know that by now you either (A) Don't know how to play Sorc or (B) Don't know how to play anything but Sorc. If you're just another zergling and you're speaking from the perspective of spamming Force Pulse behind a zerg and having fun, just say so and we can be done with it.
One of the things that has kept Sorc fairly balanced is the lack of a strong class spammable (though Force Pulse is pretty strong for a spammable). Sorc has made up for that with the highest burst from skills that can be timed to ignore global cooldowns. No other class can deal as much instant burst damage as a Sorc who lands Curse/Frag/Fury/Ulti combo. So it makes sense that the filler skill (Force Pulse) not be OP. This Asylum weapon is going to add so much pressure to Force Pulse alone that it's going to be completely over the top with the rest of Sorc's toolkit.
Also, you don't see other classes moaning for this weapon to go Live. That's because other classes know they can't do with Force Pulse what Sorc can do with Force Pulse. That alone should tell you something. I'm honestly exhausted of the Sorcs who each and every patch refuse to see the strengths in their own class and act like it's somehow hard to play. It's literally the easiest class to play solo.
I'm not saying they're the same for crying out loud! Ugh! I'm not trying to turn DKs or Magblades or anything into sorcs! Can we stop putting words in my mouth? I'm getting really, REALLY frustrated with this BS.
Not to mention that blatantly ad hominem "oh you don't agree with me clearly you just don't play as these other classes". I do! I have! I've even made for fun magknight builds with force pulse as the spammable and guess what? It didn't perform as well as the meta so I wouldn't even say replace your spammable with force pulse. I know the limitations of the classes I do theory crafting all the time to create different and fun and unique builds. I try things, and I learn.
Everyone has access to force pulse, that is my argument, but you misunderstand what my argument means. It means use the force pulse once every 4 or 5 seconds to proc the staff, then keep using your usual stuff. Hell, don't want to use a destro staff as your DPS bar? Put it on your back bar, make it infused with the weapon damage enchantment, the force pulse will proc the staff and enchantment, swap back to your regular bar and voila look at that you're back to your normal rotation and damage for those couple seconds. Seeing how in PvP battles are often won in couple second burst moments, you benefit just as much.
I'm literally just saying the staff is something you can use force pulse once to proc the effects and go back to business as usual. Come on. Getting tired and frustrated.
Edit: Also your "nobody can land bursts that ignore global cooldowns like sorcs" comment, I have two words... Magicka Warden.
Your frustration isn't because I don't understand what you're trying to say--I do--you're becoming frustrated because you aren't listening to what I'm saying. You're ignoring the Synergy Force Pulse has with the Sorc toolkit. That's the issue. You can't just shoehorn Force Pulse into the rotation on a different class and expect similar results. If you can't see that, then we're at an impasse.
I know the synergy force pulse has with sorcs. It procs frags. That's literally why it's used, to proc frags while doing damage. What is gained is the benefit of the staff. That benefit can be gained by anyone else by just adding force pulse to the rotation. Thus net gain for both - same thing. The only difference is the sorc won't have to add something to their rotation. If that is that large of an advantage, then it's the same situation for magdens who often set up their DPS to have shalks, cliff racer, and force pulse and maybe an ultimate all land at the same time. Their rotation burst doesn't change either. So if it is that big of an advantage to keep the same rotation as before, then it isn't a sorc problem exclusively. If it isn't, then it isn't a sorc problem at all."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. Vast majority of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (99% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. If that. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't god mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
I don't think they meant to buff sorcs. I jus think they don't PvP in their own game so don't realise the implications of this staff. I think it's an honest mistake, but a huge one if it goes live.
P.S. The 2H Asylum weapon is insanely OP too.
Yes but magsorcs don't use 2h weapons so why would the forums QQ about that?
Oh but they do. Granted the sorc QQ is the most vocal but magDK gets a ton of crying, and did even when the class was complete trash.
You haven't seen the QQ for stam DKs running that one build? This 2H, in perfected, is better than the recently nerfed Bloodspawn.
2 -
Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭✭I didn't expect to need to put out a flashing neon sign saying pvp, I think the skills mentioned express that. Here are the contexts:
Highest mobility: sorc
Burst: sorc/warden/nb
Survivability: sorc shields, easily up to par when running resto ult, DKs tied, but lose damage, sorcy pie doesn't.
Ccs: Used to be fear, but DK and sorc both have root+unblockable cc (not DK prior because break via damage) beneficial in group situations. Negate too, if that counts.
Sorc is effectivly one of the best in pvp, with top cc, damage, ignoring roots with streaks. The only thing they aren't best in is pvp group healing.
Bgs too for obvious reasons, but you already know
I'll admit one thing, stamina DK outdoes magsorc for 1vx tank, but nothing else, even then stamDK is avoidable as ccs are expensive and they are slow/weak without Seventh/fury.
Oh, and yeah, streaks counters don't factor in until late, goes through roots, ball absorbs some stuff, gap closers sometimes can't catch up to stun/damage.
My point would be that there is no universal context in PvP. If a class were over performing in all aspects, we'd have an issue. But the balance of power is very tight between all classes, and has been for a while. Every class is extremely powerful in its own niche.
Let me answer your points 1:1.
Highest mobility: Sorc has good mobility, but so does anything stamina. Have you ever seen a stamina build in medium armor run around on speed pots? They cover ground faster and at less cost than a streaking sorc. Streak is directly countered by gap closers, where again the resource burn is in favor of those chasing. And finally, while half of mobility is creating distance, the other half of mobility is maintaining momentum i.e. countering snares. A snared sorc will not go far with streak so long as even one competent enemy is on them. All things considered, a stam templar or stam sorc will have just as good mobility as a sorc. And if you consider 3D mobility and juking people, shades is just as powerful as streak if used right.
Burst: Sorc burst is good, but it is extremely predictable. Nightblade (both magicka and stamina) is far more lethal. I will say, sorc is more accessible and easier to play. Night blade has a higher skill floor, but also a higher skill ceiling. When speaking absolutes and the dynamics of classes when played the way they are meant to be, nightblade burst in PvP is far superior. Simply quicker, harder hitting, less predictable, and accompanied with more buffs and debuffs than the sorc.
Survivability: 1v1, shields are great. When outnumbered or when being focused, they are one of the weaker mechanics. I find myself astoundingly more survivable when under focus as a heavy armor stamina build than as a sorc. I could elaborate but you won't really get it until you pick up a mag sorc yourself and duel a strong stamina player or fight an intense 1vX against opponents with lethal damage. Against pugs, indeed sorc seems invincible. All it takes is one good stam build in that "X" part of the equation to make sorc subpar in outnumbered PvP.
These are all topics relevant to small scale. In large scale pvp, sorc is outperformed by nightblade bombers and is mostly useful for the negate.
Every class is extremely powerful in their niche. If you find this statement hard to believe, chances are you are not playing your class right or have not seen it played right. So what is sorc's niche? Its the absolute best solo roamer. Dipping in and out of fights and blowing *** up. But when you have to buckle down and fight? I'd take any stam class over magicka sorc. And that precisely is why I main a stamplar and stamblade these days.
You can keep complaining and whining, but by now it should be abundantly clear that the devs also agree with and acknowledge the balance of power that exists that I have described here. Otherwise, sorcs woulda been nerfed a long time ago. There isn't some grand conspiracy here, yall just need to learn to play.
I stopped reading at "have you ever seen a medium armor using speed pot?" Because that's the problem with you guys. A medium armor build will be one shot material with that stupid change to rune prison.
Also its hell harder to survive (sometimes impossible thanks to uncounterable mechanics implemented for handless people) while with your streak you trade mall mobility for something like 5x survivability.
Seriously,I think sorc is fine ATM (still easy af in duels but I don't care about them) but the next patch will destroy the balance we achieved till now.
Have fun with crushing shock(reliable +8%dmg,dot) then curse+meteor+fury+rune cage. No counterplay AT ALL,no skill involved. So even people who comes here yelling l2p can finally manage to kill something.3 -
Eirella✭✭✭✭✭Karmanorway wrote: »I mean seriously? Sorc, the class that has to give up very little for tankiness, mobility and damage, now is the tied best CCer in the game. I don't think they are god mode, burst is manageable, and I don't want every bit of it nerfed like pleebs, but they are definitely the most overpowered class now.
Let papa go through comparisons:
Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can facetank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak.
Which brings me to... Shield stacking, its definitely possible to keep shields up constantly, as it has none of the penalties of block/roll or no shield defile, no regen blocks or repetitive cost increases. Also none of the counters, where is the attacks that goes through only shields (Oblivion/bleed ignores everything, cost poisons affect everyone) One of its main counters is in a set, great if you want to counter a sorc, nope, you might decimate the sorc, but you become potato to everyone without shields. The CP tree against shields gets a half mark, it doesn't fully counter them, more so depends on your damage. Something like siphoner to counterract the extra shield strength from bastion
How about, conversion costing more to interrupt than to be interrupted. Nope, too difficult to add some risk/reward to it. Too hard for FOTYers.
Also the auto execute, DK/warden get effectively nothing. Why?
If the rune prison change is added, then its just incredibly silly. Discuss.
I dont get it, if sorcerers are so OP , why are less ppl playing that class? And i have a magsorc myself, when a stam pvper gets up close to me and start spamming uppercut on me im pretty much screwed, so i for one thinks the rune prison buff is a good and fair thing,
Seriously, people keep saying sorcs are so OP, but the majority of the people I run into in Cyrodiil play stam builds.
I recommend a lot of the "sorcs are OP" people try to actually play a sorc in Cyrodiil, and not run in a zerg. It isn't as easy as you think.
To be fair, Sorc is as easy as it gets solo.
Personally I think NB is the easiest class to solo with, sorc being a close second. :P4 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The new staff is stupidly powerful and Sorc is the only class that really makes good use of it. It's a problemFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭They took easy mode pvp class and made them better. Whelp everyone run a sorc. Its that simple.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »To be clear, the only thing I'm against when it comes to sorc is that new staff. 99% of it's use in PvP will be by a sorc. Anyone can use it, but nobody does. Every destro resto sorc (90% of them) use it. Like 5% of the rest of magica population use it. It is a huge sorc buff.
Yes, mag sorc is strong in PvP. But it isn't good mode. That new staff will be game breaking. It cannot go live like it.
Only reason sorcs use force pulse is because there is literally no other spammable available. Personally I wish sorcs had an in kit spammable. Here's what it boils down to now... Sorcs, the only option there was is now better. Every other magicka build, now you have a choice between the class spammable and force pulse. Or hell, use it in an off rotation and continue using the better spammable. Watch, I'll demonstrate the rotation on say a magblade.
Force pulse to proc the staff, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, swallow soul, light attack, force pulse etc sneaking in your dots and assassin's will burst. You have the same advantages, and still have a better spammable to use. You just get another plus to your setup.
Same with DKs, you also get another dot to add look at that. Same with every magicka set up.It's just making a single tool available to EVERYONE better. Just because Sorcs don't have an alternative to that tool does not mean this is exclusively a sorc buff.
Ugh... These forums make my brain hurt...
I wish sorc had a class spammable too. I wish Stam sorc and Stam dk did too.
The fact of the matter is sorc is top tier in PvP as it is. Easy access to two powerful buffs is too much. Huge uptime with no sacrifice as it part of their spammable.
Mag sorc is my most played character in PvP. I've spent more time on it than anything else. So it's not like I hate sorcs and want them nerfed into the ground. I honestly just think this staff will push them to another level. One which I really don't think they need.
Huge uptime on minor maim is incredibly strong with shields. I think wizards riposte is too strong, but that's another issue entirely.
Sorc is my most played char aswell.
Imo it does not compete with magblade at the moment. Magblade straightup does anything a sorc can better except for streak.
I don´t think the staff will be an issue at all - especially when put into perspective of other weapons getting introduced (nature of that being those other weapons all being stamina based).
If something about sorc is an issue next patch it´s being able to stun someone to guarantee a fragment hit unblocked. The staff is nothing compared to that.
Funnily enough, mageblade is my second most played.
I usually play solo/outnumbered. Magica NB has huge burst potential, you're right. But to achieve that burst is a lot harder than a sorc. You can proc a frag instantly on a fight and do good damage. A mageblade has to connect 5 light attacks. If a target dodges merciless, you start again. Sorc can have 3 proceed frag in that time. Even when being defensive.
The extra shield and streak are also much better survival tools than cloak. Conjured is guaranteed defence. Cloak is easilly broken or countered. Mageblade is really good, but sorc is another animal imo. Let's not forget curse and a 4 second execute. But I'm not saying they're op, but they make sorc a really strong class. Making them have these strong buffs without no sacrifice to skill loadout and rotation is too much imo and is going to cause huge issues if it goes live.
And even if every magica player uses it, look how many people will have huge uptime on two really strong buffs. From a 1 piece and 1 skill (which is easy to weave and does decent damage). That's still an issue.
The 2h is an issue as well, you're right. A stamblade can kill a guy with it for 35 instant ult, 44 if a vamp/we. That's just under to a bit over half of incap. That's a huge problem too. But this is a sorc thread, hence me talking about the staff.
My problem isn't with sorcs, it's the staff. It's just it will synergise too good with a sorc. Same with Templars, how everyone says their healing is too strong. It's the fact they synergise with heavy and things like troll king so so well. It isn't the healing that's the issue, it's the sets and mechanics ZOS put in the game without thinking about how they will work in specific situations.
I don´t use cloak as a defensive tool on my NB. Nor do i use shields ._.
Assassins will + soulharvest is simply much better burst bc fear guarantees it to land against virtually any target.
I don´t argue the staff is a good weapon. But it´s hardly op. It comes at a sacrifice of either 2p undaunted or a 5p setbonus - which is imo reasonable. It´s more powerful than some 5p weaker than others. Same goes for undaunted sets.
It´s a clear tradeoff.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The new staff is stupidly powerful and Sorc is the only class that really makes good use of it. It's a problem
I disagree entirely. Scroll up and you can see how other classes can benefit."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I gave the staff an honest shot on mwarden, and wasn't convinced. It's nice, but actually struggled keeping it up between enemy dodge rolls and it's short duration, and since you can only affect one enemy at a time, i don't see myself end up running it on live. I'd guess a sorc would do a bit better with it, but not much. 4 seconds duration is pretty low.Edited by SanTii.92 on September 19, 2017 5:12PMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.4 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Well now Sorcs are going to be able to land all of their Meteors. No need to Streak through anyone.
I'm not a Sorc hater, I actually used to play it quite a lot before it bored me, but this is kinda stupid.
Sad part is that the new rune is almost exactly like the old agony without the DoT, an it was a useful combo for landing Meteor as a NBSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1