Can we talk about the bad sorc balancing?

ak_pvp · September 2017

I mean seriously? Sorc, the class that has to give up very little for tankiness, mobility and damage, now is the tied best CCer in the game. I don't think they are god mode, burst is manageable, and I don't want every bit of it nerfed like pleebs, but they are definitely the most overpowered class now. The issue isn't one specific thing, its the cumulative.

Let papa go through comparisons:

Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can tank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown after certain number of uses so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak. Maybe even increase boundless maj expedition to be longer

Which brings me to... Shield stacking, its definitely possible to keep shields up constantly, as it has none of the penalties of block/roll or no shield defile, no regen blocks or repetitive cost increases. Also none of the counters, where is the attacks that goes through only shields (Oblivion/bleed ignores everything, cost poisons affect everyone) One of its main counters is in a set, great if you want to counter a sorc, nope, you might decimate the sorc, but you become potato to everyone without shields. The CP tree against shields gets a half mark, it doesn't fully counter them, more so depends on your damage. Something like siphoner to counterract the extra shield strength from bastion

How about, conversion costing more to interrupt than to be interrupted. Nope, too difficult to add some risk/reward to it. Too hard for FOTYers.

Also the auto execute, DK/warden get effectively nothing. Why?

If the rune prison change is added, then its just incredibly silly. Discuss.

EDIT: So they nerfed frags, well done on a change no one asked for. Just like the shield duration one. It doesn't even tackle the main issues. Is it that hard to listen to most players who know what they are talking about?

Undo the frags and the prison change, sorcs burst is fine as is, and this new prison+encase really overshadows DKs.

Nerf shield stacking, lower streak/mines cost to compensate.

Stop shields ignoring status effects.

Tadaa balance.

Kilandros · September 2017

It's becoming a bit silly. Giving them a non-disorient CC that goes through Dodge and Block is going to be crazy for a class with so much burst.

Feanor · September 2017

Again this? Seriously? I'd rather discuss the huge buff Fear got...

Brrrofski · September 2017

Forget all that.

New problem. Crushing shock with new staff.

Only sorcs use it. I play every class in Pvp and sorc is the only one I even think about using it on. The rest have class spammable. Yes I can use it on any, but nobody does. People might now. Sure. But every magica class will just be the same. Spamming that because it's so strong.

So now a sorc's weave will make you take 8% more damage, put a fire dot on you and make you do 15 % less damage (which count against shields). Who though this was ok?

Again, who plays PVP at zenimax? Seriously. How can they not see this is a game breaking buff for an already very strong class.

I play magica sorc. So this isn't a crying about sorcs post. I play everything in Stam and magica. I play all 10 variants in PvP. All of them. I actually want to see balance. That new destro is just flat out broken. Seriously.

usmcjdking · September 2017

The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Darkdex · September 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Correct, that will be the MAJOR PROBLEM.

You'll deal 15% less damage, receive 8% more damage and be burning 100% of the fight if you face someone using that staff.

If you are a stamina guy... you are pretty much screwed.

EDIT: Typos.

Vapirko · September 2017

Sorcs got an unblockable undodgebale cc because the freakin amazing amount of crying on this forum. That long with the Asylum staff should be "interesting." It's completely ridiculous, im legit kind angry rn.

ak_pvp · September 2017

The staff is definitely another issue, but I am not too sure about it quite yet. I have seen people used charged for similar effects. We will wait and see on that.

Feanor wrote: »

Again this? Seriously? I'd rather discuss the huge buff Fear got...

You mean the nerf fear got and the buff some silly traps recieved?

Dorrino · September 2017

Personally, i'm quite certain we're going to see more mag sorcs buffs in the future.

In particular making Hardened Ward to prevent oblivion damage looks like a quite fitting change.

^_^

Feanor · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

The staff is definitely another issue, but I am not too sure about it quite yet. I have seen people used charged for similar effects. We will wait and see on that.

Feanor wrote: »

Again this? Seriously? I'd rather discuss the huge buff Fear got...

You mean the nerf fear got and the buff some silly traps recieved?

Well, I have seen the traps used by very good NBs on PC EU, and it's definitey not "silly" even on live now...

HoloYoitsu · September 2017

Is this a nerf sorc thread?

CyrusArya · September 2017

You ramble off a couple of strengths that sorcs have, and indeed there are powerful aspects of the class. Equally so, every class has powerful aspects to em that can be made to seem overpowered if described hysterically. But let me ask you this.

ak_pvp wrote: »

they are definitely the most overpowered class now.

In which context(s), exactly, is magicka sorc overpowered or the best performing class. Is it the best 1v1? Is it the best 1vX? Is it the best as a raid DPS? Is it the best healer? Is it the best in BGs? If it is definitely the most overpowered, please tell me in which situations magicka sorc clearly outshines the rest.

Your claims that streak has no counter and that sorcs can face tank as well as DKs make me seriously question the value of your opinions.

BohnT · September 2017

Feanor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

The staff is definitely another issue, but I am not too sure about it quite yet. I have seen people used charged for similar effects. We will wait and see on that.

Feanor wrote: »

Again this? Seriously? I'd rather discuss the huge buff Fear got...

You mean the nerf fear got and the buff some silly traps recieved?

Well, I have seen the traps used by very good NBs on PC EU, and it's definitey not "silly" even on live now...

There is just a slight change which makes them useless you can see them, why would i use a trap if i place a sign on them saying "don't go on this field, it's a damn trap"

The only reason sorc was kinda balanced is that you could avoid the burst with block and dodge now every sorc can hit every burst with ease the only class capable of this is nightblade and they were brought in line with their squishiness.
Giving sorcs this strength is way too much.
And we don't even talk about the new staff that is another balance nightmare

ak_pvp · September 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

You ramble off a couple of strengths that sorcs have, and indeed there are powerful aspects of the class. Equally so, every class has powerful aspects to em that can be made to seem overpowered if described hysterically. But let me ask you this.

ak_pvp wrote: »

they are definitely the most overpowered class now.

In which context(s), exactly, is magicka sorc overpowered or the best performing class. Is it the best 1v1? Is it the best 1vX? Is it the best as a raid DPS? Is it the best healer? Is it the best in BGs? If it is definitely the most overpowered, please tell me in which situations magicka sorc clearly outshines the rest.

Your claims that streak has no counter and that sorcs can face tank as well as DKs make me seriously question the value of your opinions.

I didn't expect to need to put out a flashing neon sign saying pvp, I think the skills mentioned express that. Here are the contexts:

Highest mobility: sorc
Burst: sorc/warden/nb
Survivability: sorc shields, easily up to par when running resto ult, DKs tied, but lose damage, sorcy pie doesn't.
Ccs: Used to be fear, but DK and sorc both have root+unblockable cc (not DK prior because break via damage) beneficial in group situations. Negate too, if that counts.

Sorc is effectivly one of the best in pvp, with top cc, damage, ignoring roots with streaks. The only thing they aren't best in is pvp group healing.

Bgs too for obvious reasons, but you already know

I'll admit one thing, stamina DK outdoes magsorc for 1vx tank, but nothing else, even then stamDK is avoidable as ccs are expensive and they are slow/weak without Seventh/fury.

Oh, and yeah, streaks counters don't factor in until late, goes through roots, ball absorbs some stuff, gap closers sometimes can't catch up to stun/damage.

Cage_Lizardman · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life.

Maybe... if you don't feed your mount?

Joy_Division · September 2017

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

IAVITNI · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

I didn't expect to need to put out a flashing neon sign saying pvp, I think the skills mentioned express that. Here are the contexts:

Highest mobility: sorc
Burst: sorc/warden/nb
Survivability: sorc shields, easily up to par when running resto ult, DKs tied, but lose damage, sorcy pie doesn't.
Ccs: Used to be fear, but DK and sorc both have root+unblockable cc (not DK prior because break via damage) beneficial in group situations. Negate too, if that counts.

Sorc is effectivly one of the best in pvp, with top cc, damage, ignoring roots with streaks. The only thing they aren't best in is pvp group healing.

Mobility:
In open world, sure sorc has the best mobility. But Streak is meant to allow sorcs hyper mobility in open world. In a duel or in the case of a good sorc that isn't attempting a 1vz what does mobility matter? And if your talking about repositioning in a duel, Nightblades can reposition much better, Magicka DK's can reposition well by limiting their opponents mobility, Templars have 100% uptime on a 30% snare and most run Mist Form in PvP. Idk the warden class all that well, but they can get near 100% uptime on major expedition.

Burst: sorc/warden/nb/templar
Every class has high burst if played right except maybe DK which often rely on their ultimate/skoria to help execute.

Survivability:
Uhm no, not up to par regarding resto ultimate. 1v1 yes shields are hard to get through. 1vx, shields will melt vs people non-potatoes without LoS. Every class is OP against potatoes. And oh, look. Sorc shield stacking isn't BiS in all context. 1v1, ya I'd rather shield stack. 1vx, i'd prefer to dodge roll and break free from infinite snares and CC.

Cc:
You keep saying Sorcs have the "best root along with etc." which is true, but a statement without context. The average PvP sorc will run:

Front bar- Frag, Curse, Fury, Crushing Shock/Mage Light, Entropy/Hardened.
Backbar- Dark Deal/Mines/Thundering, Healing Ward, Harness, Streak, Entropy/Hardened

To run encase they need to give up one of your "sorc is BiS in all these areas" (areas?)

Sorc burst is THE MOST TELEGRAPHED burst in the game. Watch the sorcs hands and learn to dodge roll when they glow and you will do much better vs sorcs on your medium armor night blade. Also try running Rally to heal after burst.

I can list all the strengths of every class and omit their weakness and they will all look OP. Your posts are not constructive, they're simply you complaining about a class you clearly do not understand.

But beside from your blatant anti-sorc propaganda, I agree that this CC change is over the top. Sorc burst should be set up through player skill (timing DawnBreaker/Streak, Baiting, Pressure etc.). Not fond of a guaranteed CC. I prefer the old morphs myself for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Kilandros · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Rune Prison does go through block but because it's a Disorient it comes with a small shield that will eat whatever crit you're trying to follow the CC up with. That's why Sorcs use the defensive morph. If I'm gonna time my Frag with my curse and I want to CC you, it doesn't help me to give you a 2k damage shield that nullifies an empowered frag crit.

This change means Sorcs can drop your block and force you to eat that Frag/Curse combo. It's going to be pretty disgusting.

tinythinker · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

I mean seriously? Sorc, the class that has to give up very little for tankiness, mobility and damage, now is the tied best CCer in the game. I don't think they are god mode, burst is manageable, and I don't want every bit of it nerfed like pleebs, but they are definitely the most overpowered class now.

Let papa go through comparisons:

Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can facetank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak.

Which brings me to... Shield stacking, its definitely possible to keep shields up constantly, as it has none of the penalties of block/roll or no shield defile, no regen blocks or repetitive cost increases. Also none of the counters, where is the attacks that goes through only shields (Oblivion/bleed ignores everything, cost poisons affect everyone) One of its main counters is in a set, great if you want to counter a sorc, nope, you might decimate the sorc, but you become potato to everyone without shields. The CP tree against shields gets a half mark, it doesn't fully counter them, more so depends on your damage. Something like siphoner to counterract the extra shield strength from bastion

How about, conversion costing more to interrupt than to be interrupted. Nope, too difficult to add some risk/reward to it. Too hard for FOTYers.

Also the auto execute, DK/warden get effectively nothing. Why?

If the rune prison change is added, then its just incredibly silly. Discuss.

Now, now. NB's got a heal that can kill them. Sorcs didn't get all the love.

pieratsos · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can facetank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak.

It already requires planning to use streak and mines. Thats because they both murder ur magicka. Mines cost 5.5k and streak costs 10k+ after 3 casts. If you try and use streak as a spammable the only border you are going to cross is the border of a graveyard and u can start ur new life there.

Complaining about shieldstacking is one thing and even sorcs advocate for it to be removed. But over-exaggerating with things like facetanking, streak spammables and comparing the need for execute on DK/warden and sorcs doesnt help ur case.

pieratsos · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

Personally, i'm quite certain we're going to see more mag sorcs buffs in the future.

In particular making Hardened Ward to prevent oblivion damage looks like a quite fitting change.

^_^

Definitely fitting. One less crutch for every potato abusing it. Then we may actually get some balance.
Btw, feel free to take this personally.

Morgul667 · September 2017

Mag Sorc actually seems OK in non-CP

Issue is on CP campaign

Not sure about this CC thing, doesnt worry me too much but time will tell

zyk · September 2017

ZOS is completely out of touch with how this game is actually played.

Alpheu5 · September 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Rune Prison does go through block but because it's a Disorient it comes with a small shield that will eat whatever crit you're trying to follow the CC up with. That's why Sorcs use the defensive morph. If I'm gonna time my Frag with my curse and I want to CC you, it doesn't help me to give you a 2k damage shield that nullifies an empowered frag crit.

This change means Sorcs can drop your block and force you to eat that Frag/Curse combo. It's going to be pretty disgusting.

I think you're confusing Rune Cage with Petrify. Petrify is the one that puts a small ward on the enemy, Rune Cage allows all DoTs to keep ticking away, but vanishes with the first direct attack.

SirAndy · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Can we talk about the rather blatant sorc love here?

That's what you get when the guy in charge likes to run around in a pretty dress while waving a wooden stick ...

Lylith · September 2017

what class should be the best in pvp, then?

Lylith · September 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Rune Prison does go through block but because it's a Disorient it comes with a small shield that will eat whatever crit you're trying to follow the CC up with. That's why Sorcs use the defensive morph. If I'm gonna time my Frag with my curse and I want to CC you, it doesn't help me to give you a 2k damage shield that nullifies an empowered frag crit.

This change means Sorcs can drop your block and force you to eat that Frag/Curse combo. It's going to be pretty disgusting.

I think you're confusing Rune Cage with Petrify. Petrify is the one that puts a small ward on the enemy, Rune Cage allows all DoTs to keep ticking away, but vanishes with the first direct attack.

rune cage is getting nerfed to ***, fwiw, and peterfy [sic] is also being 'adjusted.'

Joy_Division · September 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Rune Prison does go through block but because it's a Disorient it comes with a small shield that will eat whatever crit you're trying to follow the CC up with. That's why Sorcs use the defensive morph. If I'm gonna time my Frag with my curse and I want to CC you, it doesn't help me to give you a 2k damage shield that nullifies an empowered frag crit.

This change means Sorcs can drop your block and force you to eat that Frag/Curse combo. It's going to be pretty disgusting.

Do all disorients give you a damage shield? I thought only the DK one did?

Kilandros · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Are sorcs going to give up the current Defensive rune morph they love for this? Maybe, but they are taking away one of their defensive tools to do this. It's been awhile, does the current version of rune Prison also go through block and dodge since it's a disorient? Stun is more powerful since it breaks on damage, but a sorc who wanted to cc through block I think can already do this. Or Am I not remembering something?

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Rune Prison does go through block but because it's a Disorient it comes with a small shield that will eat whatever crit you're trying to follow the CC up with. That's why Sorcs use the defensive morph. If I'm gonna time my Frag with my curse and I want to CC you, it doesn't help me to give you a 2k damage shield that nullifies an empowered frag crit.

This change means Sorcs can drop your block and force you to eat that Frag/Curse combo. It's going to be pretty disgusting.

Do all disorients give you a damage shield? I thought only the DK one did?

I could have sworn Rune Prison did, but it's been about 2 years since I've seen the other morph so I'm starting to doubt my resolve on this one.

Jhalin · September 2017

Rune Prison is now a 2.5s stun, same with Petrify as per the patch notes for PTS. Neither can be blocked or avoided.

KramUzibra · September 2017

its getting a bit rediculous. sorcs just keep getting buffed