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PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Templar

ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_GinaBruno
Community Manager
This is the official feedback thread for Templar. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the changes on the Solar Barrage and Eclipse abilities.
Gina Bruno
Principal Creator Engagement Manager
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Staff Post
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Unspecific from patch notes: radiant destruction and morphs fix when? The execute damage hasn't been applied to this execute like others as seen in horns of the reach. The oppression morph where max magicka doesn't have execute damage applied. Please zos all i want :(
    Edited by Blackbird_V on September 19, 2017 1:37AM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • jrgray93
    jrgray93
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    As stated, Radiant is still not performing correctly with execute scaling. Huge issue for templar DPS.

    I'll still never slot Eclipse because having it apply CC makes it a huge no-no. Stuns will always be superior. The changes seem neat but the achilles heel of the ability remains.

    Solar Barrage changes look interesting but having a cast time for something that only lasts six seconds seems to me like it will feel clunky. Probably won't get much use out of it unless it's hitting for roughly the same as a Dark Flare over that six second window.
    EP: Slania Isara : Harambe Was an Inside Job
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Even hitting as hard as dark flare a pulse; its going to be a non-starter to cast in melee range assuming its interrupt-able as it should be. If its the same as the unmorphed version, just with what amounts to 2 or 3 extra pulses, it should remain instant.

    For eclipse; it still feels niche. We still need a real CC. All positive I can say about it is free healing if you place it on an NPC that will cast into it. Other than that, its a tool to use on people that just don't know they can break free, and I am not too worried about that person.
    Edited by technohic on September 18, 2017 7:31PM
  • Ashamray
    Ashamray
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    jrgray93 wrote: »
    As stated, Radiant is still not performing correctly with execute scaling. Huge issue for templar DPS.

    I'll still never slot Eclipse because having it apply CC makes it a huge no-no. Stuns will always be superior. The changes seem neat but the achilles heel of the ability remains.

    Solar Barrage changes look interesting but having a cast time for something that only lasts six seconds seems to me like it will feel clunky. Probably won't get much use out of it unless it's hitting for roughly the same as a Dark Flare over that six second window.

    Agreed, but what's it damage? If it's high enough to kick invaders out of our house, it's awesome.
    Edited by Ashamray on September 18, 2017 7:31PM
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  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    I like the Eclipse change, however, can we adjust it a little bit to make it a bit more universal? Have the heal per direct damage a fixed amount and have the thorns damage done based of max stat?

    A lot of potential with this skill across the templar spectrum, but stam temp could use a little more love from the Dawn's Wrath tree.
    0331
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  • Ashamray
    Ashamray
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    Core problem of Eclipse remains: too niche. Break CC is a hard counter to an ability that doesn't even CC player.
    Unbreakeable Eclipse was also too bad. I suggest to add a powerful explosion when Eclipse was removed with Break Free.
    Edited by Ashamray on September 18, 2017 7:37PM
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  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    New Solar Barrage is very disappointing. The cast time completely ruins it.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
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    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Nothing to really talk about, new solar barrage just another clunky ability added to the Templar skill line.

    Eclipse is still underwhelming.
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    I am strongly opposed to the change to Eclipse - however you decide to rework this ability, it should have ZERO interaction with break-free and CC-immunity. The casting Templar needs to be able to set up reliable burst damage with a timed stun; slotting this version of Eclipse will make that very difficult. I understand that the live version of Eclipse is overly punitive to casters, but please please leave hard CC mechanics out of it.

    Why not change Eclipse into a tether ability that behaves as an offensive version of Guard from the Alliance War Support tree (recolored visuals, targets 1 enemy). X% of all direct damage done to you is transferred to your beamed target. Counters would be cleanse/purge and breaking the beam with distance.

    ^ This mechanic would actually be more true to the name of the ability and not muck up interaction with CC immunity.
  • danno8
    danno8
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    This is the official feedback thread for Templar. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the changes on the Solar Barrage and Eclipse abilities.

    Once I get in to PTS I will test, but I gotta tell you, unless Solar Barrage has a HUGE dot tick there is no way it can be good with a 1 second cast time.

    You guys (developers) really need to keep in mind what is already available:

    Elemental Wall: 8 seconds, no cast time, big DoT
    Blazing Spear : 8 seconds, no cast time medium DoT, but with Burning light proc chance
    Vampires Bane/ Reflective Light: 6/12 seconds, no cast time, big DoT

    Do any of these have a cast time? No. If you give a skill a cast time it needs to be accompanied with a big burst, and if it is melee range, it can not be interruptible.

    Remember when you made Wrecking Blow, Heavy Attacks and all melee skills generally uninterruptable? You guys did that for a reason. Please try to remember what that reason was.
  • GallantGuardian
    GallantGuardian
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    Can we please get a better way to regen our resources... ?? Us templar tanks could use some love
    We also need a reliable cc that actually stuns enemies or makes them locked down for a few seconds...

    Also this solar barrage fix would have been cool but then you went and gave it a cast time cool so it will never be utilized gotcha ...

    Here is a cool new thing for Templars.. LOL just kidding
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Make the magicka-dmg-bonus of radiant multiplicative to the execute-bonus and also the extra-dmg of sweeps multiplicative to dmg-received-debuffs to make magpla-dps a bit more viable...

    For tanks it would be nice if you introduce any HP-scaling heal....like DKs have...dragonblood is OP as f***, and is really THE ability making DK-tanks a lot more independent from healers than any other tank...
    Noobplar
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    I love the idea of an AoE pulse when doing Sanctum Ophedia. But melee cast time? What's up with the fascination with cast-times and templar abilities? Total buzzkill because It's too hard and not worth it to deal with cast times Vs. competent enemy players, which means it's not goof for PvP. Unless that damage is ridiculous, I'm not even going to bother.

    Eclipse: Well, I have to say that after many, many patches and incarnations, it finally returned back to Eclipse's original formula when it was semi-useful: reflected everything and eligible for CC break. That's good ... but it's not, because this version of Eclipse reflects nothing, it merely returns some damage. Ouch. And did I read the patch notes correctly that this debuff can be CC broken? Why am I casting this?

    I get the idea that casting this on my opponent puts forces them to make a difficult decision: CC break or continue hurting the templar and thus hurt me. Except that really isn't a difficult decision. If the templar is about to die, eat a little damage, who cares. And if the templar is at full health, what's the big deal, just CC break! It's something I do every fight every 7 seconds anyway. Just CC break and thus prevent the templar from using this ability again. It's not really that hard of a decision. The templar is going to be better off actually stunning the opponent, actually ending the opponents ability to attack, actually putting them prone to ensure their sweeps attacks hit.

    The % damage returned better be REALLY good or else we are looking at yet another version of Eclipse that is ignored by most players (indeed no skill in the game has been changed and reformed more than any other skill in the game).

    If the damage return isn't very good, then Eclipse should act as a debuff that is not CC breakable (although being a debuff it should be purgeable) because the skill isn't actually defending the templar against anything.

    Edited by Joy_Division on September 18, 2017 10:51PM
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Hymzir
    Hymzir
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    Since I main a Templar, and thus am, unsurprisingly, interested in Templar tweaks, I'll re-post my thoughts on the changes this update brings from the main patch notes thread:
    Eclipse: This ability and its morphs now returns damage whenever the affected enemy casts a direct damage attack. It still grants crowd control immunity when the effect ends and can now be removed by Break Free. Eclipse can also now be placed on an unlimited amount of enemies as a baseline effect.
    Total Dark (Eclipse morph): This morph will heal you when the target casts a direct damage attack.
    Unstable Core (Eclipse morph): This morph adds area of effect damage when the effect ends.
    Another update, another attempt to re-invent the same bloody skill into something useful. And as is traditional, failing to do so completely. This is rubbish. This is crap. This is actually less useful than the current version.
    Casting Eclipse when you have low health means the enemy may be able to ignore it and still kill your character. However, if you are able to stay alive, it can shift the tide of battle in your favor against an aggressive opponent.
    The only real use for the skill was in shutting down high burst spamming Crystal frag proccing sorcs when they burst you down to single digit percentage health values. Casting Eclipse gave you a few seconds of respite to heal up. Now... they will just burst you down with their Curse/Frag proc while spamming Crushing Shock and light attack weaving, you cast this thing and they laugh while bursting you down with more of the same. Total failure of design once again.

    And speaking about CC... You gave both DK and Sorcs a ranged unblockable undodegable stun! And yet... You do not give Templars one. Actually you don't give us any meaningful CC at all. And keep taking the little we have away or turning it into rubbish.
    Solar Barrage (Solar Flare morph): This morph now has a cast time that matches the base ability, and now causes you to pulse point blank area of effect damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
    A melee range ability with a cast time? Are you *** serious? No one will use it. There is no space on anyone's bar for this crap. It's a magicka based skill, it now has a cast time. It will do 3 pulses total. Are you *** serious? How do you think this thing will fit in anyone's rotation? I run a magicka Templar melee build. I can not think any reason to use this except if you guys give me a Crown for each time I cast it in combat. It is that bad
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    Soo is this suppose to be a templar buff or nerf? I really cant tell.
  • nCats
    nCats
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    I do not see anything new in this patch for stamplars, besides, potentially, the new crit set.

    Most pvp stamplar builds are stuck with ravager and bone pirate, for the well known reasons of sustain. We need more resource management options for this to change. As an idea, introduce stamina regen for one of the Rune focus morphs.

    To deal with the lack of CC for stamplars (especially the Power of the Light 2h builds), perhaps either a chance for burning light to do some cc or for the PoTL to cc should be added.

    Thank you.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    nCats wrote: »
    I do not see anything new in this patch for stamplars, besides, potentially, the new crit set.

    Most pvp stamplar builds are stuck with ravager and bone pirate, for the well known reasons of sustain. We need more resource management options for this to change. As an idea, introduce stamina regen for one of the Rune focus morphs.

    To deal with the lack of CC for stamplars (especially the Power of the Light 2h builds), perhaps either a chance for burning light to do some cc or for the PoTL to cc should be added.

    Thank you.

    The fighters guild already has a rune that does almost the exact same thing as you ask and it also fears undead. Why is our class morph completely inferior to a world skill?

    Templars passives and quite a few of their class skills and ultimates just have no rhyme or reason.
  • KingExecration
    KingExecration
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    Considering DK and sorc are getting some love for cc type of stuff, maybe templar could too.

    Instead of the eclipse thing make solar barrage do what spear shards did or revert spear shards back to its former glory with its stun. If solar barrage did get looked at as a stun it could create a choice for either clunky burst from dark flare or a stun from solar barrage. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say the javelin is a terrible stun costing like 3k magic that can dodged, blocked and does no damage but at least it's ranged though.

    This is speaking completely from pvp perspective though.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    Soo are templars viable yet?
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Soo are templars viable yet?

    Always viable due to heals, but they just still lack mobility and CC for magicka, and stam has crappy resource management tools compared to the other classes.
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    Ashamray wrote: »
    Core problem of Eclipse remains: too niche. Break CC is a hard counter to an ability that doesn't even CC player.
    Unbreakeable Eclipse was also too bad. I suggest to add a powerful explosion when Eclipse was removed with Break Free.

    I've suggested that for a while. Good luck. Also been pushing for the other morph to stun the target if the target tries to break free. *sigh* No chance of that, either.
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  • Skander
    Skander
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    Eclipse: still costs too much, since it doesn't stun is free immunity.
    Barrage: still garbage for pvp

    Other: you should look at templar stuns. We don't have any. (if you think of javelin as a stun, let me laugh. If you are serious, let me laugh even more)

    Stamina templar: One of the worse pvp classes you can find. Stamina warden has just everything stamplar has and even more.
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  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
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    Eclipse

    What I enjoyed about eclipse was the "unbreakable" part. I know that it was only useable against ranged spells, but that's what I needed it for. In a fight, I could catch a breather from the ranged person pelting away at me and focus on the melee. Or I could shut the ranged down, likely get a heal from it, and still stun them with Toppling Charge before it expired.
    I liked how the "soft" cc sill allowed my myself and teammates to use "hard" cc's before it expired.

    I'm not sure what to think about it now. Only thing I can see happening is using it when some melee is charging me into a dizzying swing or Executioner. They may be so caught up in the moment that they'll do a lot of damage to themselves before they break free from it.

    I almost feel like that if I use the new Eclipse, then I'll have to run without Toppling Charge because I want the Eclipse cc to be ready to use at anytime. I'd likely want to keep Javelin off my bars, too. So the only option is to run the new Eclipse with Explosive Charge. Explosive can be viable as it is undodgeable and aoe. But...

    I think the likely case is that most Templars, including myself now (one of the few who uses Eclipse now?), will opt for other skills.

    p.s. I hope that there is some active group play on pts for Templars to really test this out, in real pvp situations outside of dueling. I dunno. Just not feeling this change at all :(
    Edited by maxjapank on September 19, 2017 5:30AM
  • UppGRAYxDD
    UppGRAYxDD
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    Well.........at least no more nerfs. That's about all I got from the potes. Eclipse and solar barrage are still just a waste of code.
    "Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."
  • Malic
    Malic
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Soo is this suppose to be a templar buff or nerf? I really cant tell.

    Its honestly neither, its a bluff. Again its got to be tested, but it would appear that its a change, to make a change.

    You know a new patch every class has to have something reworked, year after year. It's actually becoming pretty sad.
  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    After these changes, I will continue NOT using either of these skills.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • WhiteMage
    WhiteMage
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    Bruh. @ZOS_CombatTeam Do you even Templar?
    The generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Major problem with Eclipse....
    It's now a free get out of CC card.

    Why?
    It doesn't stop them from moving or attacking like other CCs do one or both of.

    Yes, they get penalized for certain attacks, but if all the do is DoT and AoE then they're safe to ignore it. If they break free then they can't have any other CC that actually does more put on them.

    Eclipse is already useless in pve because it doesn't affect bosses, who you would actually want to use it on, but now in pvp it will just be trivial and make other CC trivial.
  • Docmandu
    Docmandu
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    jrgray93 wrote: »
    Solar Barrage changes look interesting but having a cast time for something that only lasts six seconds seems to me like it will feel clunky.

    Even the "instant" version was super clunky... just mentioned it in another thread but it is the same issue as the Warden's Gripping Shards... it's "instant" according to delve but it has a very sluggish response.

    Guess they couldn't fix the spell so did a ZOS and changed the spell instead of fixing the root cause.

    They have done things like this before... heck even in this patch notes they have a "bandaid" fix like this:
    "This skill line now goes up to Rank 10. Unlocking Rank 10 of the skill line grants you the Title "Undaunted". This resolves an issue where some players could increase their Undaunted Skill Line rank beyond the intended maximum."

    another bug being avoided instead of fixing the real bug.

  • Fuxo
    Fuxo
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    The idea to buff the least used skills is great. The changes to DK/NB/Sorc skills are all buffs and people will definitely consider slotting them. But these changes to templar skills are really questionable. These are no buffs. Just another attempt to completely rework them with no clear insight into templar rotations or playstyle.

    What templars really lack is a class CC and sustain skills/passives. Would it be difficult to give solar barrage immobilize and eclipse magicka steal instead?

    Here are my suggestions:

    Solar barrage: Similar to arrow barrage. Blast enemies with solar projectiles, dealing flame damage over time and immobilizing them.

    Eclipse: Absorbs the damage of direct attacks.
    Total Dark: Absorbed attacks restore magicka to the templar.
    Unstable Core: Absorbed attacks damage nearby enemies for 50% damage.

    Repentance: Allow multiple templars to restore stamina. Or restore stamina to anybody with repentance slotted.

    Also the enduring rays and light weaver passives need complete rework to something that will make the sustain easier.
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