PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Templar

Minno

danno8 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face. With such changes and following treatments this skill once again will become one of the best in Templar arsenal, as it once was.
Another great change is that now it breakable: yes, skill bad as CC against any defensive target, like those permablocking tanks that only holds block or healbots that only spam heals, but that can be fixed by Unstable Core morph (read below). In U14 resource sustain became important thing but Templar got unbreakable Eclipse and overall bad CCs. Now it is CC that can pressure enemy's stamina resource while becoming CC that enemy really want to CC Break as soon as possible. As new unique soft CC-debuff it fulfill it's purpose but in unique way: first - it force people to use CC breaks and pressure stamina, second - it allow to survive caster during enemy CCed, third - CC allow to pressure enemy. And it CC with duration, it means that any teammate can hard CC on him during duration of Eclipse, i.e. your usage of it won't destroy others' possibilities of CCs.
New idea of making it soft CC-debuff is very interesting and should be expanded(read below). After it lost ability to disable enemies it lost almost all group utility - teammates can't save they stamina or hp when you eclipsing enemies, but Templars already class with biggest group utility and in return of lost support can now get better Eclipse. And now it benefit Templars who actually want to fight, not carry-bot.
As example I taking fight vs permablocking dragonknight: one of my most hated enemies - right now Templar simply can't CC it coz Aurora is just too bad skill to even consider of using it and Toppling Charge main purpose de facto is gap-close, not CCing. Currently when you fight such dk you can only hope to CC him with Charge, at least for short duration, but it almost impossible - you can do it only during short period of vulnerability to CC when he swap weapons, and you have to take minimal distance for Charge to cast, and that almost impossible with all permasnares and permaroots. And even if you CC him, Charge with its a bit clunky animation grant short duration CC during which you won't be able to burst him down...
But in U16 you can slot Total Dark - and dk will be left with 2 choices - 1. waste presiouc stamina on CC Break, and holding block just won't save him anymore from this CC. I.e. TD fulfill purpose of being CC - the thing that Templar is lacked of. Second choice for dk is to keep debuffed and not waste stamina on CC Break. And that what will happen next, since 90% of dks use their razor armor skill: his second choice will be splitted for 2 choices: A.: he have to drop off block for duration off CC, making him vulnerable to all templar attacks in that time span, that is great. B.: is worst option to choose - keep attacking Templars wile permablocking. That will have terrible results for him: firstly - with TD on dk, he simply won't be able to burst Templar (check tooltip below), it will be equal to be disabled by old Eclipse. Secondly - all his attacks will proc damage return to him, even for all his 1k lightattacks will will eat back twice more damage in addition to direct attacks of Templar will proc Eclipse damage coz razor armor is direct damage that dealt to Templar upon attacks. And thirdly and best part - all damage return he will block will eat his stamina.
As result of such struggle he either will CC Break it or keep fighting with it, and in return stop being threat to Templar while simultaneously will recive large amount of damage and drain his own stamina. That is utterly amazing result.
Regarding tooltips: yes it not reflected damage but tooltip bad only for those Templars who are carry others, for tempalr that actually wana fight and survive it good enough. TD simultaneously will buffed offense and defense. And both parameters can crit, making it even stronger for high crit builds while also making independent to enemies offense capabilities. And unlike warden's Leeching Veins it don't have cooldown on proc.
That is my tooltip on *** pts template while de facto damage is higher coz such CP skills as Shatter Blows/Penetration:

Does anyone really pretend to say that CC that can simultaneously heal for same amount as dk's whip proc (and even much higher), while deal damage that only 10% weaker than initial hit of Vampire Bain on each proc (given that it can happen up to 8 procs during one duration - damage tooltip is 52936 damage in 5 sec) is bad?! Like, really? With such tooltip for every light attack enemy will get even more damage back and heal templar for more than damage dealt, or, on pts when my TD's heal crit - all enemy 6k crit Uppercauts will be completely outhealed by 6k crit heal. In addition to fact that direct attacks was Templars biggest bane since we can just purge dots, unless someone pretend that templar cleanse is bad.
But with all it's effectiveness as I said it only half-way change it really need to threat new mechanics and old mechanics that are relics of previous usage of skill:
1. CC immunity after skill expire - in Morrowind skill was made to have no counter and for that reason became short CC with CC immunity after expire. It was made coz it was impossible to CC break it and CC immunity after expire allowed to not be affected by it 100% of time, i.e. what currently happen with resource guards that apply unbreakable reflect 100% uptime...
But after skill became breakable once again - it should be restored to its former form - to not grant CC immunity on expire. It will make choice of Break it or not to Break it, otherwise 5 sec duration debuff will still be something that many enemies will accept for in return of getting free CC immunity after. In addition it going against new mechanic of soft CC-debuff: when enemy using soft CCs, like roots, waiting for it to expire wont grant immunity to roots. To have it you must actively counter it by dodge, not waiting it expire and get free immunity to next root. If it would be so - roots would start to be useless soft CC.
Given the developer comment about it, currently it a bit wrong: enemy can ignore but it won't turn battle in your favor as much as it can coz for his aggressive action of attacking and not breaking it he will get highest pvp buff - CC immunity... for not CC breaking... It is soft CC-debuff that lost group utility, so why both aspects of this(CC and debuff) must be countered by one act?!
2. Same as was on U14 pts and for that reason hopefully bug: upon purge Eclipse it grant free CC immunity. It should be fixed same as it was in U14 to not grant immunity.
3. Eclipse lost ability to CC checks on cast: well, same as Petrify, so I hope it just a bug. Coz for expensive (unlike new Petrify) skill that is targeted, it huge drawback that will making it as terrible resource eater. But if it not bug there is other solution to it: given that it is not simple soft CC, but new unique soft CC-debuff it might be get next treatment: same as current Total DArk works: split TD on 2 separate debuff: one - is CC damage reflect that can be braken, second is healing solid debuff that can't be broken but only purged; or vice versa, as both are strong. Both can be purged, but only 1 can be CC Breaked. It will allow to not waste resource on empty cast, but even when enemy have CC immunity - cast won't be wasted and will play role of debuff. On debuff list it will look same as current TD:

Visual effect used can be same as it current - debuff as shadows flowing around enemy.
If not - at least increase duration 1 sec. Only 0.5 sec boost from previous unbreakable CC mechanic is too low.
4. Morphs diversity: have to agree with everyone else - Unstable Core became completely useless morph that has absolutely no reason to be used. While TD grant strong utility, all that UC can grant is low damage aoe ~each 7-12 seconds. Currently UC is not the best coz it flaw mechanic of not being CC, and had to be removed from passive that extend duration, but it can deal damage at least. However I think it should be remained as current soft CC but get some treatments to actually become offensive morph that can work against full defensive opponents in perfect state; or at least be aggressive by default.
The way I see fixes:

• a. Same as was done once - buff it returned damage to 60%, that will make it full offense CC: being hit for like 10k on his own attacks before realizing that he debuffed is worthy to sacrifice survivability of TD. And to make it solid with concept of double debuff of TD above - let it be as current TD - apply time bomb.
• b. Same, to be solidified with double debuff concept - make it apply 2.5 sec root debuff on enemy, so if he will have CC immunity, he still can be rooted. Templar is only class without root.
• c. Decrease damage but make damage return to be Oblivion damage with time bomb 2nd debuff. It will be like "ok, you can not to break it but than your block nor your 20k shields will help you in battle". However it won't help against full defense enemy.
• d. As already suggested - keep it as current UC but make it apply unbreakable/undodgeable stun for 2 sec after explosion will hit in 3.5 sec. But this time not exclude from passive again so it will be long 5sec charging. This will make it delayed hard CC, like warden subterranean assault, that will affect full defensive opponents.
• e. Simply make it to restore 500 stamina on proc same as TD restore HP. Wont grant healing survivability but will work in both pve and pvp and tempalr will have to fight in attempt to survive.
• f. Increase damage a bit, but make all damage return to be and magnetic bomb explosion, i.e. aoe damage.

Solar Barrage - another good change but also actually only half-way change. Change differentiated it from Impusle but didn't granted any utility for making this morph independent and that why it should grant more treatments to make it usefull for juggernauts:
I see such ways:
1. Remove Empower buff. Unlike old Barrage and default skill/another morph, current Barrage became AoE DoT that can't be self-empowered, making this buff irrelevant. Those minority of of templar skills that can be empowered simply won't be casted after Barrage, but have to be used before. So we can remove it and it will keep skill as DoT. And that will allow to have it any of other treatments:
A. Remove cast time - we don't even need to theorycraft about this change coz we already have almost exact same skill with long history - Detonation. Once Proximity had to be casted skill with cast time that was removed simply coz it couldn't fulfill its purpose of melee explosion "standing there in interruptable cast and then run to enemies for melee range" simple not worked coz enemies were aleady aware of what is coming; so range morph is cast time with unlimited amount of targets, melee without cast time. It exact same mechanic as Templar Flare works - range morph with high damage, self-empower, and AoE major debuff, so Barrage could be melee DoT without cast time, empower that not working. Bombplars unite
B. Another treatment - and I prefer it more coz it will grant more utility and will be familiar with Templar "channeling" theme keep it as 1sec cast time but solidify it with another morph and allow it to apply Major Defile for 4-5 sec on targets that hitted. It will transform it into frontline aoe skill that will debuff enemies, while Dark Flare will be remained as backline range high damage support skill. Cast time in this case will be drawback that wont allow juggernauts to simply reapply skill while being focused by enemies, but have to LosIng, using shield ult to reapply it, and 1sec cast time that not decreasing speed is not a insane drawback, Dark Deal as example. Also Templar survivability is based on healings but he can't pressure other classes/builds that built same way.
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And regarding some other small changes:
1. Focus - let it have it bonuses from morphs (mana restore/vitality,protection) to be char based, not ground; keep armor buff ground-based. It will allow Templar to stop recasting Focus every 10 meters when kiting just to make it work, it will make them less turtles, coz even now when you fight in small area fights you have to spam it to have effect. There once was bug when additional effects was attached to caster and I think everyone could agree that it was making this skill much better.
2. Rite of Passage - since dk got huge buff for their Shifting Standart, we should get buff to our useless ults too. In this case I propose idea of Practiced Incantation morph change - make it cast only Templar/cast templar and 1 ally in 8 meters, grant it CC immunity for 8sec, but no longer disable caster. It will make ultimate to work for solo/duo Templars, morph will loose all(almost) group utility but in exchange will work for caster himself and will allow to actively participate in combat. Also it will stop granting armor buff from Light Weaver that equal to major protection buff, i.e. reduce default tankiness in exchange. Keep current bright sun light effect so it will be visible for both caster and enmemies that he is under its effect.
3. Restoring Spirit - to help tempalrs with tankiness make it to reduce all costs for 4% not only resources. Same as Alteration set works.
4. Sweep ultimate - make it scale from highest resource so both magplars/stamplars would have use of it.
4. Empowering Sweep ultimate - make it apply major protection buff instead of current scaling, it will make it 11% stronger in 1v1 but 9% weaker in it max spike effectiveness. Also it will no longer stack with same buff from other sources and grant too much reduction. Rename it to Empowered Sweep.
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@Wrobel

Sorry but i disagree with the eclipse presentation. It's going to be just as strong as the current, except to everyone not just magicka, but only to bad players now. As soon as a good player gets hit with this they will cc break and you'll now be screwing up your stun or your allies cc options. You're right in saying its an option in 1v1 vs perma blockers and will force stam drain, but that's something that should be addressed itself. In opened world, all you'll do to a perma blocker is make them immune to a real cc that drops block. Stamina management isn't any issue for good perma blockers in a 1v1 if built right anyway.

It'll be good for the 1 or 2 seconds to stop someone's combo, just like the current eclipse, but now i don't get my cc combo bc they will cc break while I'm recovering. When i do use it i always cc right before the effect ends to get the most out of the skill. The ability to cc break destroys that. Bad change.

Sure it works against a lot more, but no good player is going to sit there hitting themselves for 5 seconds... be real. Sure it would great against npcs, but they are as dumb as it gets.

Just to add to your last sentence, it only works against trash NPC's. Anything 1 pip or higher are immune to it. Why would anyone on the PvE side ever use this 5 second single target skill on an NPC that will probably be dead in less than 5 seconds?

And where it could have some use (6k every 2 seconds is a pretty good DoT, most mobs attack ~ once every 2 seconds) you can't use it since the mob will be immune!

I should marry unstable core with how many times I'm talking about it lol. But even on live, UC could tag one or two trash mobs plus the boss and that DMG will hit them all. Mine hits for over 10k in pve and crits for more letting me fill in with jabs while using other spells for boss fights.

But I don't raid.

NiclasFridholm

Just reverse changes to the way Radiant/Sweeps is calculated, we literally lost 8K ST overnight.
I get that theese skills would be OP if you didnt change em since they was buffed by Direct Damage CP originally, (stated as intended) then you removed the CP buff without rebalancing the calculation. Please just fix this so we can actually be welcome in endgame raids again! For 6 months I havent been able to play my Magplar properly...

Feanor

On Eclipse giving CC immunity without actually stunning the enemy: I guess this is a trade off. If you Eclipse your enemy he has two choices: stop doing damage (Templars can purge DoTs with ease too) or break it and use your stam pool. You could simply run the opponent out of stam (at least mag users) and then have a guaranteed stun via Javelin or Toppling Charge (I agree the two skills have their own issues). The alternative is the enemy not breaking it and thus not attacking for the duration. If you remove CC immunity from the skill it would be quite strong for shutting down an enemy completely. PvP perspective ofc.

Brutusmax1mus

Feanor wrote: »

On Eclipse giving CC immunity without actually stunning the enemy: I guess this is a trade off. If you Eclipse your enemy he has two choices: stop doing damage (Templars can purge DoTs with ease too) or break it and use your stam pool. You could simply run the opponent out of stam (at least mag users) and then have a guaranteed stun via Javelin or Toppling Charge (I agree the two skills have their own issues). The alternative is the enemy not breaking it and thus not attacking for the duration. If you remove CC immunity from the skill it would be quite strong for shutting down an enemy completely. PvP perspective ofc.

You can run bad players out of stam. I haven't had a stamina issue on any of my mag characters in will over a year. Good players will ALWAYS cc break this spell immediately. You may get 1 or maybe 2 reflects based on your timing in a competitive environment. It needs to have another component to have a spot on my bar.

What about a stun, if it's cc broken they have an unbreakable eclipse on them for 2 seconds. 2 second stun, then a 2 second debuff where they will likely be recovering any way and the eclipse won't do much, but there is that component). That would even make it stronger vs full health opponents. If they get out of the cc with 70%heath, they may want to go offensive but it would benefit them to sustain even then due to the damage and healing it would give you.

Joy_Division

@Cinbri -

I know you're a really good player and probably more knowledgeable of the intricacies of templar mechanics than I am, but I think you are far overestimating the value of Eclipse.

I've used the skill in Maelstrom Arena and it was not something I would recommend or would use again. I didn't feel very protected using it. This is against unthinking, non-CC breaking NPCs. DK Wings, Warden Leeching Vines, even plain old Harness Magicka are all superior options.

You can say this is effective Vs. 90% of opponents and I guess it is, but it's *really* frustrating to slot a skill that has simply zero effect on bosses and elite NPCs. These are the most important PvE fights and I'm not going to waste a slot on my bar for an ability that is 100% useless in those situations. My DK wings, Warden Leeching vines, and plain old Harness Magicka work just fine in these scenarios.

We can stop right here and assert with confidence that just based on PvE alone Eclipse is in need of some fundamental reform. It's purely a PvP skill and being having such a limited scope for a limited amount of players in the ESO community, it better bring something genuinely exciting to the table.

It's highly debatable that it does.

I do think you are right in that this is supposed to function as the Templar CC: it follows the petrify-fear-rune prison formula of going through dodge, from what you posted I get the impression it goes through block (does it? It used to not) and because most opponents are going to CC break it, a templar casting eclipse will have the same result as a DK casting petrify: opponent is hit with an undesirable spell that will prompt them to immediately CC break and consume stamina.

Except:

• Eclipse is noticeably more expensive
• Eclipse does not have a strong after-effect debuff (neither does Rune Prison, but it's not like sorcs need help)
• Eclipse does not stop the movement of an opponent
• Eclipse does not actually drop an opponent's block in order to hit them with a meteor or allow allies to hit unblocking targets.
• Eclipse can be purged and cleansed by Allies.
• An opponent does not have to break this - for an example, an opponent who is fleeing won't care about being Eclipsed and this are precisely the opponents I often really want to CC.
• An opponent could potentially fight just fine being Eclipsed. Talons, Curse, Flame Breath, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, Sap Essence, Deep Fissure, etc., all work just fine.

That's a lot of drawbacks and functions that Eclipse can't perform that the other classes real CCs can.. What exactly is Eclipse doing that Rune prison-Fear-Petrify can't? Some magic damage if our opponent's don't CC break and hit us with direct damage attacks. That's it. What if they chose not to fulfill these conditions? Well then a templar has just used 1000 more magicka on a potential CC break (let's not forget Eclipsed can be purged and cleansed unlike Fear, Fossilize, and Rune Prison) that does not even impede my opponent's movement and has no after-effect.

So, yes, it may sort of act as a quasi CC, but it is more expensive, has more limitations, and isn't nearly as versatile or good as the other class options. But that is what precisely has been wrong with Eclipse from the beginning and why no skill has undergone as many revisions and reforms as this because after all the devs have done, most templars do not use this for PvE or PvP.

Since you used Eclipse from Launch, that is the one before the initial Imperial City revision, I'll ask you would you rather have that one or what we have on the PTS? I don't think it's close, the original Eclipse was far and away superior ... and in the grand scheme of ESO, it wasn't even that good.

Consider, the Original Total Dark morph reflected back just about every attack in the game, which encompassed a much wider array of attacks, but in actually reflecting the attacks back, also inflicted the opponents with all the accompany DoTs, CCs, debuffs, burst damage, etc. I also got healed and the opponent took damage whether or not they CC broke. Think about that, you'd have to combine both morphs on the PTS just to get something that isn't nearly as good!.

I've said this after every single PTS patch and I'll say it again. What is on the PTS will not be used by the vast majority of Templar players, ether in PvE and PvP. At some point ZoS should come to the conclusion those of us who don't use Eclipse because it has too many limitations and doesn't do anything interesting or exciting to make up for those limitations, rather than we are ignorant of Eclipse's potential.

Neoauspex

Good to see there are some varying opinions on the changes, thanks for the testing/feedback @Cinbri

Zer0oo

Can we change repentance to make this skill useful for more than 1 templer in a grp? Who should use it the healer or the stam dd or maybe the second stam templer? Also without repentance it is not possible to sustain using any aoe skills against alot of adds without spamming heavy attacks.
Maybe undo the change with morrowind and give blood altar from the undaunted skill line the same effect just that you have to precast it so that every class as access to it.


Also would be nice if more than one templer could use Purifying Light/Power of the light in pve. If you have 2 mag(stam) templer dds only one of them can use the skill since a recast would overwrite the other ones.

cazlonb16_ESO

I guess I should just copy/paste this every dlc, certainly applied to the last two years or so without any significant changes.

1. Do not add more abilities with cast/channels times to Templars. Seriously, just don't.

2. Eclipse - It's dead, Jim. Stop beating it. This skill has to be the most often changed in the game by a mile and still is extremely niche.

3. Hard CC. Templars need it desperately.

4. Fix obvious bugs - Current major issue: execute calculation.

5. ???

6. $$$

Solariken

I don't agree with everything @Cinbri said BUT I think he's on the right track with suggesting Eclipse be split into 2 separate effects/debuffs, such that it is always meaningful to cast and useful in PvE boss encounters. With that in mind, here's another suggestion for the (base) spell:

The first effect is the soft CC which deals damage each time the enemy initiates a direct damage attack. It can be cleansed or broken free and obviously does not get applied to CC-immune targets or bosses.

The second effect is the time bomb - this goes through block/dodge like current and remains applied after the enemy breaks free but can be purged. It always gets applied on cast. I suggest adding Minor Maim (-15% damage) to this portion.

Just like on Live, Total Dark adds a small heal per proc on the first effect and Unstable Core increases the damage of the second effect.

Note: the damage portion that procs on enemy direct damage should still be changed such that it is useful to Stamplars! You can make it scale on highest stats or make it a % of the enemy's direct damage output.

maxjapank

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Sorry but i disagree with the eclipse presentation. It's going to be just as strong as the current, except to everyone not just magicka, but only to bad players now. As soon as a good player gets hit with this they will cc break and you'll now be screwing up your stun or your allies cc options. You're right in saying its an option in 1v1 vs perma blockers and will force stam drain, but that's something that should be addressed itself. In opened world, all you'll do to a perma blocker is make them immune to a real cc that drops block. Stamina management isn't any issue for good perma blockers in a 1v1 if built right anyway.

It'll be good for the 1 or 2 seconds to stop someone's combo, just like the current eclipse, but now i don't get my cc combo bc they will cc break while I'm recovering. When i do use it i always cc right before the effect ends to get the most out of the skill. The ability to cc break destroys that. Bad change.

Sure it works against a lot more, but no good player is going to sit there hitting themselves for 5 seconds... be real. Sure it would great against npcs, but they are as dumb as it gets.

As highlighted, this has always been the strength of Total Dark. Unbreakable and still able to be cc'd before the effect ends. I never ran with Unstable because I wanted the morph that would reflect dmg back. But Total Dark still caused aoe dmg at the end of it's effect. Though smaller than Unstable, Total Dark still could contribute to the total overall burst damage in pvp.
You could essentially lead with Total Dark, get off 2 other skills, and still stun them with Toppling before the effect ended. It's been an effective combo.

I personally don't see them making any drastic changes to Eclipse this time around. Either there will be small quality improvements or it will go as stated. Or..they could not change it at all and keep as it currently is. Seems someone has enjoyed Unstable as it currently is. Seems some more have enjoyed Total Dark as it currently is.

tplink3r1

Why don't they just completely change it like they did with Blinding Flashes? An AOE damage cloak would be nice to protect our houses...

Cinbri

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face. With such changes and following treatments this skill once again will become one of the best in Templar arsenal, as it once was.
Another great change is that now it breakable: yes, skill bad as CC against any defensive target, like those permablocking tanks that only holds block or healbots that only spam heals, but that can be fixed by Unstable Core morph (read below). In U14 resource sustain became important thing but Templar got unbreakable Eclipse and overall bad CCs. Now it is CC that can pressure enemy's stamina resource while becoming CC that enemy really want to CC Break as soon as possible. As new unique soft CC-debuff it fulfill it's purpose but in unique way: first - it force people to use CC breaks and pressure stamina, second - it allow to survive caster during enemy CCed, third - CC allow to pressure enemy. And it CC with duration, it means that any teammate can hard CC on him during duration of Eclipse, i.e. your usage of it won't destroy others' possibilities of CCs.
New idea of making it soft CC-debuff is very interesting and should be expanded(read below). After it lost ability to disable enemies it lost almost all group utility - teammates can't save they stamina or hp when you eclipsing enemies, but Templars already class with biggest group utility and in return of lost support can now get better Eclipse. And now it benefit Templars who actually want to fight, not carry-bot.
As example I taking fight vs permablocking dragonknight: one of my most hated enemies - right now Templar simply can't CC it coz Aurora is just too bad skill to even consider of using it and Toppling Charge main purpose de facto is gap-close, not CCing. Currently when you fight such dk you can only hope to CC him with Charge, at least for short duration, but it almost impossible - you can do it only during short period of vulnerability to CC when he swap weapons, and you have to take minimal distance for Charge to cast, and that almost impossible with all permasnares and permaroots. And even if you CC him, Charge with its a bit clunky animation grant short duration CC during which you won't be able to burst him down...
But in U16 you can slot Total Dark - and dk will be left with 2 choices - 1. waste presiouc stamina on CC Break, and holding block just won't save him anymore from this CC. I.e. TD fulfill purpose of being CC - the thing that Templar is lacked of. Second choice for dk is to keep debuffed and not waste stamina on CC Break. And that what will happen next, since 90% of dks use their razor armor skill: his second choice will be splitted for 2 choices: A.: he have to drop off block for duration off CC, making him vulnerable to all templar attacks in that time span, that is great. B.: is worst option to choose - keep attacking Templars wile permablocking. That will have terrible results for him: firstly - with TD on dk, he simply won't be able to burst Templar (check tooltip below), it will be equal to be disabled by old Eclipse. Secondly - all his attacks will proc damage return to him, even for all his 1k lightattacks will will eat back twice more damage in addition to direct attacks of Templar will proc Eclipse damage coz razor armor is direct damage that dealt to Templar upon attacks. And thirdly and best part - all damage return he will block will eat his stamina.
As result of such struggle he either will CC Break it or keep fighting with it, and in return stop being threat to Templar while simultaneously will recive large amount of damage and drain his own stamina. That is utterly amazing result.
Regarding tooltips: yes it not reflected damage but tooltip bad only for those Templars who are carry others, for tempalr that actually wana fight and survive it good enough. TD simultaneously will buffed offense and defense. And both parameters can crit, making it even stronger for high crit builds while also making independent to enemies offense capabilities. And unlike warden's Leeching Veins it don't have cooldown on proc.
That is my tooltip on *** pts template while de facto damage is higher coz such CP skills as Shatter Blows/Penetration:

Does anyone really pretend to say that CC that can simultaneously heal for same amount as dk's whip proc (and even much higher), while deal damage that only 10% weaker than initial hit of Vampire Bain on each proc (given that it can happen up to 8 procs during one duration - damage tooltip is 52936 damage in 5 sec) is bad?! Like, really? With such tooltip for every light attack enemy will get even more damage back and heal templar for more than damage dealt, or, on pts when my TD's heal crit - all enemy 6k crit Uppercauts will be completely outhealed by 6k crit heal. In addition to fact that direct attacks was Templars biggest bane since we can just purge dots, unless someone pretend that templar cleanse is bad.
But with all it's effectiveness as I said it only half-way change it really need to threat new mechanics and old mechanics that are relics of previous usage of skill:
1. CC immunity after skill expire - in Morrowind skill was made to have no counter and for that reason became short CC with CC immunity after expire. It was made coz it was impossible to CC break it and CC immunity after expire allowed to not be affected by it 100% of time, i.e. what currently happen with resource guards that apply unbreakable reflect 100% uptime...
But after skill became breakable once again - it should be restored to its former form - to not grant CC immunity on expire. It will make choice of Break it or not to Break it, otherwise 5 sec duration debuff will still be something that many enemies will accept for in return of getting free CC immunity after. In addition it going against new mechanic of soft CC-debuff: when enemy using soft CCs, like roots, waiting for it to expire wont grant immunity to roots. To have it you must actively counter it by dodge, not waiting it expire and get free immunity to next root. If it would be so - roots would start to be useless soft CC.
Given the developer comment about it, currently it a bit wrong: enemy can ignore but it won't turn battle in your favor as much as it can coz for his aggressive action of attacking and not breaking it he will get highest pvp buff - CC immunity... for not CC breaking... It is soft CC-debuff that lost group utility, so why both aspects of this(CC and debuff) must be countered by one act?!
2. Same as was on U14 pts and for that reason hopefully bug: upon purge Eclipse it grant free CC immunity. It should be fixed same as it was in U14 to not grant immunity.
3. Eclipse lost ability to CC checks on cast: well, same as Petrify, so I hope it just a bug. Coz for expensive (unlike new Petrify) skill that is targeted, it huge drawback that will making it as terrible resource eater. But if it not bug there is other solution to it: given that it is not simple soft CC, but new unique soft CC-debuff it might be get next treatment: same as current Total DArk works: split TD on 2 separate debuff: one - is CC damage reflect that can be braken, second is healing solid debuff that can't be broken but only purged; or vice versa, as both are strong. Both can be purged, but only 1 can be CC Breaked. It will allow to not waste resource on empty cast, but even when enemy have CC immunity - cast won't be wasted and will play role of debuff. On debuff list it will look same as current TD:

Visual effect used can be same as it current - debuff as shadows flowing around enemy.
If not - at least increase duration 1 sec. Only 0.5 sec boost from previous unbreakable CC mechanic is too low.
4. Morphs diversity: have to agree with everyone else - Unstable Core became completely useless morph that has absolutely no reason to be used. While TD grant strong utility, all that UC can grant is low damage aoe ~each 7-12 seconds. Currently UC is not the best coz it flaw mechanic of not being CC, and had to be removed from passive that extend duration, but it can deal damage at least. However I think it should be remained as current soft CC but get some treatments to actually become offensive morph that can work against full defensive opponents in perfect state; or at least be aggressive by default.
The way I see fixes:

• a. Same as was done once - buff it returned damage to 60%, that will make it full offense CC: being hit for like 10k on his own attacks before realizing that he debuffed is worthy to sacrifice survivability of TD. And to make it solid with concept of double debuff of TD above - let it be as current TD - apply time bomb.
• b. Same, to be solidified with double debuff concept - make it apply 2.5 sec root debuff on enemy, so if he will have CC immunity, he still can be rooted. Templar is only class without root.
• c. Decrease damage but make damage return to be Oblivion damage with time bomb 2nd debuff. It will be like "ok, you can not to break it but than your block nor your 20k shields will help you in battle". However it won't help against full defense enemy.
• d. As already suggested - keep it as current UC but make it apply unbreakable/undodgeable stun for 2 sec after explosion will hit in 3.5 sec. But this time not exclude from passive again so it will be long 5sec charging. This will make it delayed hard CC, like warden subterranean assault, that will affect full defensive opponents.
• e. Simply make it to restore 500 stamina on proc same as TD restore HP. Wont grant healing survivability but will work in both pve and pvp and tempalr will have to fight in attempt to survive.
• f. Increase damage a bit, but make all damage return to be and magnetic bomb explosion, i.e. aoe damage.

Solar Barrage - another good change but also actually only half-way change. Change differentiated it from Impusle but didn't granted any utility for making this morph independent and that why it should grant more treatments to make it usefull for juggernauts:
I see such ways:
1. Remove Empower buff. Unlike old Barrage and default skill/another morph, current Barrage became AoE DoT that can't be self-empowered, making this buff irrelevant. Those minority of of templar skills that can be empowered simply won't be casted after Barrage, but have to be used before. So we can remove it and it will keep skill as DoT. And that will allow to have it any of other treatments:
A. Remove cast time - we don't even need to theorycraft about this change coz we already have almost exact same skill with long history - Detonation. Once Proximity had to be casted skill with cast time that was removed simply coz it couldn't fulfill its purpose of melee explosion "standing there in interruptable cast and then run to enemies for melee range" simple not worked coz enemies were aleady aware of what is coming; so range morph is cast time with unlimited amount of targets, melee without cast time. It exact same mechanic as Templar Flare works - range morph with high damage, self-empower, and AoE major debuff, so Barrage could be melee DoT without cast time, empower that not working. Bombplars unite
B. Another treatment - and I prefer it more coz it will grant more utility and will be familiar with Templar "channeling" theme keep it as 1sec cast time but solidify it with another morph and allow it to apply Major Defile for 4-5 sec on targets that hitted. It will transform it into frontline aoe skill that will debuff enemies, while Dark Flare will be remained as backline range high damage support skill. Cast time in this case will be drawback that wont allow juggernauts to simply reapply skill while being focused by enemies, but have to LosIng, using shield ult to reapply it, and 1sec cast time that not decreasing speed is not a insane drawback, Dark Deal as example. Also Templar survivability is based on healings but he can't pressure other classes/builds that built same way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

And regarding some other small changes:
1. Focus - let it have it bonuses from morphs (mana restore/vitality,protection) to be char based, not ground; keep armor buff ground-based. It will allow Templar to stop recasting Focus every 10 meters when kiting just to make it work, it will make them less turtles, coz even now when you fight in small area fights you have to spam it to have effect. There once was bug when additional effects was attached to caster and I think everyone could agree that it was making this skill much better.
2. Rite of Passage - since dk got huge buff for their Shifting Standart, we should get buff to our useless ults too. In this case I propose idea of Practiced Incantation morph change - make it cast only Templar/cast templar and 1 ally in 8 meters, grant it CC immunity for 8sec, but no longer disable caster. It will make ultimate to work for solo/duo Templars, morph will loose all(almost) group utility but in exchange will work for caster himself and will allow to actively participate in combat. Also it will stop granting armor buff from Light Weaver that equal to major protection buff, i.e. reduce default tankiness in exchange. Keep current bright sun light effect so it will be visible for both caster and enmemies that he is under its effect.
3. Restoring Spirit - to help tempalrs with tankiness make it to reduce all costs for 4% not only resources. Same as Alteration set works.
4. Sweep ultimate - make it scale from highest resource so both magplars/stamplars would have use of it.
4. Empowering Sweep ultimate - make it apply major protection buff instead of current scaling, it will make it 11% stronger in 1v1 but 9% weaker in it max spike effectiveness. Also it will no longer stack with same buff from other sources and grant too much reduction. Rename it to Empowered Sweep.
_____________________________________________________________________________
@Wrobel

Sorry but i disagree with the eclipse presentation. It's going to be just as strong as the current, except to everyone not just magicka, but only to bad players now. As soon as a good player gets hit with this they will cc break and you'll now be screwing up your stun or your allies cc options. You're right in saying its an option in 1v1 vs perma blockers and will force stam drain, but that's something that should be addressed itself. In opened world, all you'll do to a perma blocker is make them immune to a real cc that drops block. Stamina management isn't any issue for good perma blockers in a 1v1 if built right anyway.

It'll be good for the 1 or 2 seconds to stop someone's combo, just like the current eclipse, but now i don't get my cc combo bc they will cc break while I'm recovering. When i do use it i always cc right before the effect ends to get the most out of the skill. The ability to cc break destroys that. Bad change.

Sure it works against a lot more, but no good player is going to sit there hitting themselves for 5 seconds... be real. Sure it would great against npcs, but they are as dumb as it gets.

Saying that it making bad coz breakable is same as saying that pre-IC Total Dark was crap. No one whoever used it back In time will agree on this. And as I said there should be done something about Unstable Core, for example apply undodgeable/unblockable stun that will counter those full defensive enemies.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

On Eclipse giving CC immunity without actually stunning the enemy: I guess this is a trade off. If you Eclipse your enemy he has two choices: stop doing damage (Templars can purge DoTs with ease too) or break it and use your stam pool. You could simply run the opponent out of stam (at least mag users) and then have a guaranteed stun via Javelin or Toppling Charge (I agree the two skills have their own issues). The alternative is the enemy not breaking it and thus not attacking for the duration. If you remove CC immunity from the skill it would be quite strong for shutting down an enemy completely. PvP perspective ofc.

You can run bad players out of stam. I haven't had a stamina issue on any of my mag characters in will over a year. Good players will ALWAYS cc break this spell immediately. You may get 1 or maybe 2 reflects based on your timing in a competitive environment. It needs to have another component to have a spot on my bar.

That not true. Pre-Morrowind I was able to defeat top eu manabaldes by using Total Dark, they could break it but fight always was ended that they didn't got enough stamina for that and when it happened they were doomed. And back in time they were most sustainable for stamina class. That's why I was unhappy about making it unbreakable coz since Morrowind there were serious sustain nerfs.
But I can't deny that unbreakable eclipse is better for survivavbility. And since it no longer reflect damage I think it if fair to have it breakable but split it on 2 debuffs one of which will be applied even on CC immune enemies. It would be best of two worlds for offense and survivability.

@Joy_Division I agree on most points. Undeniably Eclipse pre-IC was strongest one but same undoubtly it was most bugged skill In game. Remember how for 3 months casting it meant to stack in global cooldown, or that flying dragonknights bug was never being fixed. I think It reason why zos will never return to this, it just too messy.
Regarding Eclipse, well, it never worked in pve and was solely pvp skill, but it didn't make it any worse. It indeed not as reliable as scales or shimmering shield, but it feature is being cc-debuff and that what I think dhould be done - make it really worthy debuff.
And this is one more reason why I want it to be splitted on 2 debuffs. When you will be able to cast debuff that heal you on boss and each his attack will heal you, that would be very strong. It will make Eclipse to start working and being trong in pve.
Regarding cost - ye, it was done 15% cheaper than before, in Morrowind, but overall they should buff it more to pay for it high cost. If they won't - skill should be undoubtly become cheaper, at least 5%.
And as I said - changes of skill is good but it only half of needed changes, zos must treat it more to make skill great.
Dragonknights by a simple change got huge buff of their Fossilize: now they have super cheap undodgeable/unabsorbable/unreflectable hard CC(current disorient I stoped breaking for a long time since got out of it and free cc immunity couple seconds later thx to enemy attacks) with root that dk can spam left and right. It means rip Scales, rip snb reflect and reflective ult, rip Shimmering shield and major heroism that it grants, rip sorc BoL. This simple but insanely good change. Eclipse need its problems to be fixed to make it as great as new Fossilize, so simple break free wont ruin it. Currently it have many drawbacks.

Joy_Division wrote: »

• An opponent could potentially fight just fine being Eclipsed. Talons, Curse, Flame Breath, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, Sap Essence, Deep Fissure, etc., all work just fine.

Depends on what you mean by it. I don't remember last time when Curse was able to hit Templar. Rest of those skills listed are procing new eclipse. Some proc sets proc damage return now too, that make those proc sets to not deal any damage to you and punish user..
But in the end don't you agree that after all that time of us having this crap eclipse that had almost no use in pvp for such long time, it is nice to see that it starting to change in something that have some use on battlefield. And our feedback should help with it, that what pts is for.

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

Just reverse changes to the way Radiant/Sweeps is calculated, we literally lost 8K ST overnight.
I get that theese skills would be OP if you didnt change em since they was buffed by Direct Damage CP originally, (stated as intended) then you removed the CP buff without rebalancing the calculation. Please just fix this so we can actually be welcome in endgame raids again! For 6 months I havent been able to play my Magplar properly...

Forgot to mention it but completely agree with it. Why was it done? Templar was good dps in pve but worst in pvp, and after changes it made all other classes even stronger dps in pve and in pvp it increased gap in damage between Templar and other classes even more. Currently cp distribution looks weird for pvp Templar: some skills works as direct, some as dot, there is no perfect rotation of it as other classes have.

Solariken wrote: »

I don't agree with everything @Cinbri said BUT I think he's on the right track with suggesting Eclipse be split into 2 separate effects/debuffs, such that it is always meaningful to cast and useful in PvE boss encounters. With that in mind, here's another suggestion for the (base) spell:

The first effect is the soft CC which deals damage each time the enemy initiates a direct damage attack. It can be cleansed or broken free and obviously does not get applied to CC-immune targets or bosses.

The second effect is the time bomb - this goes through block/dodge like current and remains applied after the enemy breaks free but can be purged. It always gets applied on cast. I suggest adding Minor Maim (-15% damage) to this portion.

Just like on Live, Total Dark adds a small heal per proc on the first effect and Unstable Core increases the damage of the second effect.

Note: the damage portion that procs on enemy direct damage should still be changed such that it is useful to Stamplars! You can make it scale on highest stats or make it a % of the enemy's direct damage output.

Sadly I afraid it wont be done this way - that how very first Total Dark worked: apply reflect after enemy break it apply spd debuff that was equal to cc immunity. That made TD to be active on non-Templar 100% uptime and it was perfect eclipse, they even kept this visual of floating shadows around enemy debuff, sadly zos changed it for some reason transforming it into more defensive option. However maybe we can get Unstable Core as offensive morph now, coz currently it just crap. Now they can give those shadows visual any meaning bu grant it to be representation of debuff, right now this effect just a relic from the past that reminds of how awesome it was.

maxjapank wrote: »

I personally don't see them making any drastic changes to Eclipse this time around. Either there will be small quality improvements or it will go as stated. Or..they could not change it at all and keep as it currently is. Seems someone has
enjoyed Unstable as it currently is. Seems some more have enjoyed Total Dark as it currently is.

Probably you right, but well, during Morrowind pts it took only 1 week to change Total Dark and split it into 2 debuffs - reflect and time bomb, originally time bomb and reflect was 1 debuff and purge removed all of it by 1 cast, and it allowed to apply magnetic bomb on CC immune enemies. So, split current new Eclipse on 2 debuffs, one of whick works on cc immune enemy is something zos can afford to do, unless they think it unbalansly strong.

Overall I really wana see change of Rite of Passage. DKs by simple change made their Shifting Standart back into strong ult(and also their Cauterize simple buff that increase their solo-survivability once again). While every single templar class ult is weaker than weapon ult in pvp. There is simply no ult in class line that wont be overshadowed by weapon/guild ultimates. At least make Incantation for solo/duo Templars, at least one morph. Why if I wana pick survivability ult I must run with resto or snb or even vampire coz their ults perfect, but if I pick class survivability ult - both of its morph made for zerging and supporting. There is not every single Templar in this game who stack to 24men zerg, there is some of us who love solo/small-scale content and those really wana have class ultimate that is working when they doing 1v1 or 1vX. Even current Empowering Sweep is made for zerging - it works on it max power only when you meet stacked group and only such groups are bombsquad and zergs, i.e. such amount of enemies when you will inevitable dead, but if you love run duo in cyro or love battleground - be prepare that only usefull morph of only usefull class ultimate in pvp for non-healbots will work for 1/6 of its real power...
Just to mention - even Mercy ultimate in Overwatch got this treatment, transforming this pure supporting healer into war machine. That's mean a lot...

DeHei

Cinbri wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face. With such changes and following treatments this skill once again will become one of the best in Templar arsenal, as it once was.
Another great change is that now it breakable: yes, skill bad as CC against any defensive target, like those permablocking tanks that only holds block or healbots that only spam heals, but that can be fixed by Unstable Core morph (read below). In U14 resource sustain became important thing but Templar got unbreakable Eclipse and overall bad CCs. Now it is CC that can pressure enemy's stamina resource while becoming CC that enemy really want to CC Break as soon as possible. As new unique soft CC-debuff it fulfill it's purpose but in unique way: first - it force people to use CC breaks and pressure stamina, second - it allow to survive caster during enemy CCed, third - CC allow to pressure enemy. And it CC with duration, it means that any teammate can hard CC on him during duration of Eclipse, i.e. your usage of it won't destroy others' possibilities of CCs.
New idea of making it soft CC-debuff is very interesting and should be expanded(read below). After it lost ability to disable enemies it lost almost all group utility - teammates can't save they stamina or hp when you eclipsing enemies, but Templars already class with biggest group utility and in return of lost support can now get better Eclipse. And now it benefit Templars who actually want to fight, not carry-bot.
As example I taking fight vs permablocking dragonknight: one of my most hated enemies - right now Templar simply can't CC it coz Aurora is just too bad skill to even consider of using it and Toppling Charge main purpose de facto is gap-close, not CCing. Currently when you fight such dk you can only hope to CC him with Charge, at least for short duration, but it almost impossible - you can do it only during short period of vulnerability to CC when he swap weapons, and you have to take minimal distance for Charge to cast, and that almost impossible with all permasnares and permaroots. And even if you CC him, Charge with its a bit clunky animation grant short duration CC during which you won't be able to burst him down...
But in U16 you can slot Total Dark - and dk will be left with 2 choices - 1. waste presiouc stamina on CC Break, and holding block just won't save him anymore from this CC. I.e. TD fulfill purpose of being CC - the thing that Templar is lacked of. Second choice for dk is to keep debuffed and not waste stamina on CC Break. And that what will happen next, since 90% of dks use their razor armor skill: his second choice will be splitted for 2 choices: A.: he have to drop off block for duration off CC, making him vulnerable to all templar attacks in that time span, that is great. B.: is worst option to choose - keep attacking Templars wile permablocking. That will have terrible results for him: firstly - with TD on dk, he simply won't be able to burst Templar (check tooltip below), it will be equal to be disabled by old Eclipse. Secondly - all his attacks will proc damage return to him, even for all his 1k lightattacks will will eat back twice more damage in addition to direct attacks of Templar will proc Eclipse damage coz razor armor is direct damage that dealt to Templar upon attacks. And thirdly and best part - all damage return he will block will eat his stamina.
As result of such struggle he either will CC Break it or keep fighting with it, and in return stop being threat to Templar while simultaneously will recive large amount of damage and drain his own stamina. That is utterly amazing result.
Regarding tooltips: yes it not reflected damage but tooltip bad only for those Templars who are carry others, for tempalr that actually wana fight and survive it good enough. TD simultaneously will buffed offense and defense. And both parameters can crit, making it even stronger for high crit builds while also making independent to enemies offense capabilities. And unlike warden's Leeching Veins it don't have cooldown on proc.
That is my tooltip on *** pts template while de facto damage is higher coz such CP skills as Shatter Blows/Penetration:

Does anyone really pretend to say that CC that can simultaneously heal for same amount as dk's whip proc (and even much higher), while deal damage that only 10% weaker than initial hit of Vampire Bain on each proc (given that it can happen up to 8 procs during one duration - damage tooltip is 52936 damage in 5 sec) is bad?! Like, really? With such tooltip for every light attack enemy will get even more damage back and heal templar for more than damage dealt, or, on pts when my TD's heal crit - all enemy 6k crit Uppercauts will be completely outhealed by 6k crit heal. In addition to fact that direct attacks was Templars biggest bane since we can just purge dots, unless someone pretend that templar cleanse is bad.
But with all it's effectiveness as I said it only half-way change it really need to threat new mechanics and old mechanics that are relics of previous usage of skill:
1. CC immunity after skill expire - in Morrowind skill was made to have no counter and for that reason became short CC with CC immunity after expire. It was made coz it was impossible to CC break it and CC immunity after expire allowed to not be affected by it 100% of time, i.e. what currently happen with resource guards that apply unbreakable reflect 100% uptime...
But after skill became breakable once again - it should be restored to its former form - to not grant CC immunity on expire. It will make choice of Break it or not to Break it, otherwise 5 sec duration debuff will still be something that many enemies will accept for in return of getting free CC immunity after. In addition it going against new mechanic of soft CC-debuff: when enemy using soft CCs, like roots, waiting for it to expire wont grant immunity to roots. To have it you must actively counter it by dodge, not waiting it expire and get free immunity to next root. If it would be so - roots would start to be useless soft CC.
Given the developer comment about it, currently it a bit wrong: enemy can ignore but it won't turn battle in your favor as much as it can coz for his aggressive action of attacking and not breaking it he will get highest pvp buff - CC immunity... for not CC breaking... It is soft CC-debuff that lost group utility, so why both aspects of this(CC and debuff) must be countered by one act?!
2. Same as was on U14 pts and for that reason hopefully bug: upon purge Eclipse it grant free CC immunity. It should be fixed same as it was in U14 to not grant immunity.
3. Eclipse lost ability to CC checks on cast: well, same as Petrify, so I hope it just a bug. Coz for expensive (unlike new Petrify) skill that is targeted, it huge drawback that will making it as terrible resource eater. But if it not bug there is other solution to it: given that it is not simple soft CC, but new unique soft CC-debuff it might be get next treatment: same as current Total DArk works: split TD on 2 separate debuff: one - is CC damage reflect that can be braken, second is healing solid debuff that can't be broken but only purged; or vice versa, as both are strong. Both can be purged, but only 1 can be CC Breaked. It will allow to not waste resource on empty cast, but even when enemy have CC immunity - cast won't be wasted and will play role of debuff. On debuff list it will look same as current TD:

Visual effect used can be same as it current - debuff as shadows flowing around enemy.
If not - at least increase duration 1 sec. Only 0.5 sec boost from previous unbreakable CC mechanic is too low.
4. Morphs diversity: have to agree with everyone else - Unstable Core became completely useless morph that has absolutely no reason to be used. While TD grant strong utility, all that UC can grant is low damage aoe ~each 7-12 seconds. Currently UC is not the best coz it flaw mechanic of not being CC, and had to be removed from passive that extend duration, but it can deal damage at least. However I think it should be remained as current soft CC but get some treatments to actually become offensive morph that can work against full defensive opponents in perfect state; or at least be aggressive by default.
The way I see fixes:

• a. Same as was done once - buff it returned damage to 60%, that will make it full offense CC: being hit for like 10k on his own attacks before realizing that he debuffed is worthy to sacrifice survivability of TD. And to make it solid with concept of double debuff of TD above - let it be as current TD - apply time bomb.
• b. Same, to be solidified with double debuff concept - make it apply 2.5 sec root debuff on enemy, so if he will have CC immunity, he still can be rooted. Templar is only class without root.
• c. Decrease damage but make damage return to be Oblivion damage with time bomb 2nd debuff. It will be like "ok, you can not to break it but than your block nor your 20k shields will help you in battle". However it won't help against full defense enemy.
• d. As already suggested - keep it as current UC but make it apply unbreakable/undodgeable stun for 2 sec after explosion will hit in 3.5 sec. But this time not exclude from passive again so it will be long 5sec charging. This will make it delayed hard CC, like warden subterranean assault, that will affect full defensive opponents.
• e. Simply make it to restore 500 stamina on proc same as TD restore HP. Wont grant healing survivability but will work in both pve and pvp and tempalr will have to fight in attempt to survive.
• f. Increase damage a bit, but make all damage return to be and magnetic bomb explosion, i.e. aoe damage.

Solar Barrage - another good change but also actually only half-way change. Change differentiated it from Impusle but didn't granted any utility for making this morph independent and that why it should grant more treatments to make it usefull for juggernauts:
I see such ways:
1. Remove Empower buff. Unlike old Barrage and default skill/another morph, current Barrage became AoE DoT that can't be self-empowered, making this buff irrelevant. Those minority of of templar skills that can be empowered simply won't be casted after Barrage, but have to be used before. So we can remove it and it will keep skill as DoT. And that will allow to have it any of other treatments:
A. Remove cast time - we don't even need to theorycraft about this change coz we already have almost exact same skill with long history - Detonation. Once Proximity had to be casted skill with cast time that was removed simply coz it couldn't fulfill its purpose of melee explosion "standing there in interruptable cast and then run to enemies for melee range" simple not worked coz enemies were aleady aware of what is coming; so range morph is cast time with unlimited amount of targets, melee without cast time. It exact same mechanic as Templar Flare works - range morph with high damage, self-empower, and AoE major debuff, so Barrage could be melee DoT without cast time, empower that not working. Bombplars unite
B. Another treatment - and I prefer it more coz it will grant more utility and will be familiar with Templar "channeling" theme keep it as 1sec cast time but solidify it with another morph and allow it to apply Major Defile for 4-5 sec on targets that hitted. It will transform it into frontline aoe skill that will debuff enemies, while Dark Flare will be remained as backline range high damage support skill. Cast time in this case will be drawback that wont allow juggernauts to simply reapply skill while being focused by enemies, but have to LosIng, using shield ult to reapply it, and 1sec cast time that not decreasing speed is not a insane drawback, Dark Deal as example. Also Templar survivability is based on healings but he can't pressure other classes/builds that built same way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

And regarding some other small changes:
1. Focus - let it have it bonuses from morphs (mana restore/vitality,protection) to be char based, not ground; keep armor buff ground-based. It will allow Templar to stop recasting Focus every 10 meters when kiting just to make it work, it will make them less turtles, coz even now when you fight in small area fights you have to spam it to have effect. There once was bug when additional effects was attached to caster and I think everyone could agree that it was making this skill much better.
2. Rite of Passage - since dk got huge buff for their Shifting Standart, we should get buff to our useless ults too. In this case I propose idea of Practiced Incantation morph change - make it cast only Templar/cast templar and 1 ally in 8 meters, grant it CC immunity for 8sec, but no longer disable caster. It will make ultimate to work for solo/duo Templars, morph will loose all(almost) group utility but in exchange will work for caster himself and will allow to actively participate in combat. Also it will stop granting armor buff from Light Weaver that equal to major protection buff, i.e. reduce default tankiness in exchange. Keep current bright sun light effect so it will be visible for both caster and enmemies that he is under its effect.
3. Restoring Spirit - to help tempalrs with tankiness make it to reduce all costs for 4% not only resources. Same as Alteration set works.
4. Sweep ultimate - make it scale from highest resource so both magplars/stamplars would have use of it.
4. Empowering Sweep ultimate - make it apply major protection buff instead of current scaling, it will make it 11% stronger in 1v1 but 9% weaker in it max spike effectiveness. Also it will no longer stack with same buff from other sources and grant too much reduction. Rename it to Empowered Sweep.
_____________________________________________________________________________
@Wrobel

Sorry but i disagree with the eclipse presentation. It's going to be just as strong as the current, except to everyone not just magicka, but only to bad players now. As soon as a good player gets hit with this they will cc break and you'll now be screwing up your stun or your allies cc options. You're right in saying its an option in 1v1 vs perma blockers and will force stam drain, but that's something that should be addressed itself. In opened world, all you'll do to a perma blocker is make them immune to a real cc that drops block. Stamina management isn't any issue for good perma blockers in a 1v1 if built right anyway.

It'll be good for the 1 or 2 seconds to stop someone's combo, just like the current eclipse, but now i don't get my cc combo bc they will cc break while I'm recovering. When i do use it i always cc right before the effect ends to get the most out of the skill. The ability to cc break destroys that. Bad change.

Sure it works against a lot more, but no good player is going to sit there hitting themselves for 5 seconds... be real. Sure it would great against npcs, but they are as dumb as it gets.

Saying that it making bad coz breakable is same as saying that pre-IC Total Dark was crap. No one whoever used it back In time will agree on this. And as I said there should be done something about Unstable Core, for example apply undodgeable/unblockable stun that will counter those full defensive enemies.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

On Eclipse giving CC immunity without actually stunning the enemy: I guess this is a trade off. If you Eclipse your enemy he has two choices: stop doing damage (Templars can purge DoTs with ease too) or break it and use your stam pool. You could simply run the opponent out of stam (at least mag users) and then have a guaranteed stun via Javelin or Toppling Charge (I agree the two skills have their own issues). The alternative is the enemy not breaking it and thus not attacking for the duration. If you remove CC immunity from the skill it would be quite strong for shutting down an enemy completely. PvP perspective ofc.

You can run bad players out of stam. I haven't had a stamina issue on any of my mag characters in will over a year. Good players will ALWAYS cc break this spell immediately. You may get 1 or maybe 2 reflects based on your timing in a competitive environment. It needs to have another component to have a spot on my bar.

That not true. Pre-Morrowind I was able to defeat top eu manabaldes by using Total Dark, they could break it but fight always was ended that they didn't got enough stamina for that and when it happened they were doomed. And back in time they were most sustainable for stamina class. That's why I was unhappy about making it unbreakable coz since Morrowind there were serious sustain nerfs.
But I can't deny that unbreakable eclipse is better for survivavbility. And since it no longer reflect damage I think it if fair to have it breakable but split it on 2 debuffs one of which will be applied even on CC immune enemies. It would be best of two worlds for offense and survivability.

@Joy_Division I agree on most points. Undeniably Eclipse pre-IC was strongest one but same undoubtly it was most bugged skill In game. Remember how for 3 months casting it meant to stack in global cooldown, or that flying dragonknights bug was never being fixed. I think It reason why zos will never return to this, it just too messy.
Regarding Eclipse, well, it never worked in pve and was solely pvp skill, but it didn't make it any worse. It indeed not as reliable as scales or shimmering shield, but it feature is being cc-debuff and that what I think dhould be done - make it really worthy debuff.
And this is one more reason why I want it to be splitted on 2 debuffs. When you will be able to cast debuff that heal you on boss and each his attack will heal you, that would be very strong. It will make Eclipse to start working and being trong in pve.
Regarding cost - ye, it was done 15% cheaper than before, in Morrowind, but overall they should buff it more to pay for it high cost. If they won't - skill should be undoubtly become cheaper, at least 5%.
And as I said - changes of skill is good but it only half of needed changes, zos must treat it more to make skill great.
Dragonknights by a simple change got huge buff of their Fossilize: now they have super cheap undodgeable/unabsorbable/unreflectable hard CC(current disorient I stoped breaking for a long time since got out of it and free cc immunity couple seconds later thx to enemy attacks) with root that dk can spam left and right. It means rip Scales, rip snb reflect and reflective ult, rip Shimmering shield and major heroism that it grants, rip sorc BoL. This simple but insanely good change. Eclipse need its problems to be fixed to make it as great as new Fossilize, so simple break free wont ruin it. Currently it have many drawbacks.

Joy_Division wrote: »

• An opponent could potentially fight just fine being Eclipsed. Talons, Curse, Flame Breath, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, Sap Essence, Deep Fissure, etc., all work just fine.

Depends on what you mean by it. I don't remember last time when Curse was able to hit Templar. Rest of those skills listed are procing new eclipse. Some proc sets proc damage return now too, that make those proc sets to not deal any damage to you and punish user..
But in the end don't you agree that after all that time of us having this crap eclipse that had almost no use in pvp for such long time, it is nice to see that it starting to change in something that have some use on battlefield. And our feedback should help with it, that what pts is for.

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

Just reverse changes to the way Radiant/Sweeps is calculated, we literally lost 8K ST overnight.
I get that theese skills would be OP if you didnt change em since they was buffed by Direct Damage CP originally, (stated as intended) then you removed the CP buff without rebalancing the calculation. Please just fix this so we can actually be welcome in endgame raids again! For 6 months I havent been able to play my Magplar properly...

Forgot to mention it but completely agree with it. Why was it done? Templar was good dps in pve but worst in pvp, and after changes it made all other classes even stronger dps in pve and in pvp it increased gap in damage between Templar and other classes even more. Currently cp distribution looks weird for pvp Templar: some skills works as direct, some as dot, there is no perfect rotation of it as other classes have.

Solariken wrote: »

I don't agree with everything @Cinbri said BUT I think he's on the right track with suggesting Eclipse be split into 2 separate effects/debuffs, such that it is always meaningful to cast and useful in PvE boss encounters. With that in mind, here's another suggestion for the (base) spell:

The first effect is the soft CC which deals damage each time the enemy initiates a direct damage attack. It can be cleansed or broken free and obviously does not get applied to CC-immune targets or bosses.

The second effect is the time bomb - this goes through block/dodge like current and remains applied after the enemy breaks free but can be purged. It always gets applied on cast. I suggest adding Minor Maim (-15% damage) to this portion.

Just like on Live, Total Dark adds a small heal per proc on the first effect and Unstable Core increases the damage of the second effect.

Note: the damage portion that procs on enemy direct damage should still be changed such that it is useful to Stamplars! You can make it scale on highest stats or make it a % of the enemy's direct damage output.

Sadly I afraid it wont be done this way - that how very first Total Dark worked: apply reflect after enemy break it apply sped debuff that was equal to cc immunity. That made TD to be active on non-Templar 100% uptime and it was perfect eclipse, sadly zos changed it for some reason transforming it into more defensive option. However maybe we can get Unstable Core as offensive morph now, coz currently it just crap.

maxjapank wrote: »

I personally don't see them making any drastic changes to Eclipse this time around. Either there will be small quality improvements or it will go as stated. Or..they could not change it at all and keep as it currently is. Seems someone has
enjoyed Unstable as it currently is. Seems some more have enjoyed Total Dark as it currently is.

Probably you right, but well, during Morrowind pts it took only 1 week to change Total Dark and split it into 2 debuffs - reflect and time bomb, originally time bomb and reflect was 1 debuff and purge removed all of it by 1 cast and it allowed to apply magnetic bomb on CC immune enemies. So, split current new Eclipse on 2 debuffs, one of whick works on cc immune enemy is something zos can afford to do, unless they think it unbalansly strong.

Overall I really wana see change of Rite of Passage. DKs by simple change made their Shifting Standart back into strong ult. While every single templar class ult is weaker than weapon ult in pvp. There is simply no ult in class line that wont be overshadowed by weapon/guild ultimates. At least make Incantation for solo/duo Templars, at least one morph. Why if I wana pick survivability ult I must run with resto or snb coz their ults perfect, but if I pick class survivability ult - both of its morph made for zerging and supporting. There is not every single Templar in this game who stack to 24men zerg, there is some of us who love solo/small-scale content and those really wana have class ultimate that is working when they doing 1v1 or 1vX. Even current Empowering Sweep is made for zerging - it works on it max power only when you meet stacked group and only such groups are bombsquad and zergs, but if you love run duo in cyro or love battleground - be prepare that only usefull morph of only usefull class ultimate in pvp for non-healbots will work for 1/6 of its real power...
Just to mention - even Mercy ultimate in Overwatch got this treatment, transforming this pure supporting healer into war machine. That's mean a lot...

I think you and @Brutusmax1mus are both right. You say something like the skill is better, then we all think. He says its not useful in that way you descripe. I have all infos, but i need to say you, this skill will be only a option for duells. In open world, vMSA and others we have better ways for protection or damage (especially burstdamage).
The biggest reason for me not to use this skill is the granted CC immunity for the target. Would they change this to a CC immunity just with using the CC-break and the possibility, that you can recast this ever and ever again like all stunning skills, which not work only while the target has a CC-immunity active, i would give this skill a chance. But especially for PvP this skill isnt very useful. There are enough skills, which are useful without this "trade off" effect.
At least compare it with common stunskills. You get stun after stun, when you dont use break out. I know, that it could be very strong, when you have this effect on you all time. But good PvPbuilds have the stamina to break out. Nobody ask me or others when i take a stun every 5 seconds for 2-3seconds. I need to break out too... I will do directly, when i take a stun or ecplise, like all PvPler will do.

The Eclipseskill is purgeable and together with that i can use that time for selfheal or channeled heavy attacks. After that i have a granted CC immunity and on that way i save my stamina as experienced player.
Like i said, the skill will be only a option for some duells. Especially against magicka nightblades and sorcs, when i need to fight them over a long range, this skill could be a option. But only with this skill i dont will burst there staminapool.

Pls give me a feedback, what you think about. I agree nearly all of your other points, btw.
I really like this structured and fair discussion guys. GJ

Joy_Division

The more I think about Eclipse, the more I think it doesn't work because it falls between two stools.

Is it a CC or is it a spell meant to protect the templar? It tries to do both and doesn't do either well enough. Although I think the skill should be totally reworked to provide a unique debuff so as to differentiate the classes more, make templar tanks have something that the prototypical DK tank can't offer, and just to make the "house" defensive concept more a reality, this is what I how would recommend ZoS change it.

• Both morphs do damage when the spell is CC broke. Make the target's decision more interesting rather than "Oh, I'm eclipsed, let me just CC break." This is the way the old Eclipse worked and templars still didn't use it because it was perceived as being too weak.
• The skills are too expensive.
• The Unstable Core morph, in addition to doing more damage, should hit the opponent with a lingering debuff of sorts if the spell is CC broke.
• The Total Dark morph should provide the templar with a buff if the spell is CC broke.

This would help alleviate the those situations when the caster feels they got nothing out of the spell because it was CC broke and makes the cost more reflective of the benefit. This skill is not THAT good and there is no reason for it to cost THAT much.

DeHei

Joy_Division wrote: »

The more I think about Eclipse, the more I think it doesn't work because it falls between two stools.

Is it a CC or is it a spell meant to protect the templar? It tries to do both and doesn't do either well enough. Although I think the skill should be totally reworked to provide a unique debuff so as to differentiate the classes more, make templar tanks have something that the prototypical DK tank can't offer, and just to make the "house" defensive concept more a reality, this is what I how would recommend ZoS change it.

• Both morphs do damage when the spell is CC broke. Make the target's decision more interesting rather than "Oh, I'm eclipsed, let me just CC break." This is the way the old Eclipse worked and templars still didn't use it because it was perceived as being too weak.
• The skills are too expensive.
• The Unstable Core morph, in addition to doing more damage, should hit the opponent with a lingering debuff of sorts if the spell is CC broke.
• The Total Dark morph should provide the templar with a buff if the spell is CC broke.

This would help alleviate the those situations when the caster feels they got nothing out of the spell because it was CC broke and makes the cost more reflective of the benefit. This skill is not THAT good and there is no reason for it to cost THAT much.

I thought about this skill too. I think its would be fair to give the explosion double damage, when the target breaks out or purge With that it allways would bring a bit burst instead of nothing...
But your ideas are fine too

Cinbri

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

Sotha_Sil

Healing ritual still needs major rework.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/326762/suggestion-thread-for-healing-ritual-homestead-and-further#latest

Minno

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

The more I think about Eclipse, the more I think it doesn't work because it falls between two stools.

Is it a CC or is it a spell meant to protect the templar? It tries to do both and doesn't do either well enough. Although I think the skill should be totally reworked to provide a unique debuff so as to differentiate the classes more, make templar tanks have something that the prototypical DK tank can't offer, and just to make the "house" defensive concept more a reality, this is what I how would recommend ZoS change it.

• Both morphs do damage when the spell is CC broke. Make the target's decision more interesting rather than "Oh, I'm eclipsed, let me just CC break." This is the way the old Eclipse worked and templars still didn't use it because it was perceived as being too weak.
• The skills are too expensive.
• The Unstable Core morph, in addition to doing more damage, should hit the opponent with a lingering debuff of sorts if the spell is CC broke.
• The Total Dark morph should provide the templar with a buff if the spell is CC broke.

This would help alleviate the those situations when the caster feels they got nothing out of the spell because it was CC broke and makes the cost more reflective of the benefit. This skill is not THAT good and there is no reason for it to cost THAT much.

All good points! I'm been thinking about it, and if they remove the total burst from UC Live, it won't be the end of the world. But they really need to remove that cc immunity mag drain bug and add DMG or an effect after the CC is broken to force a decision on our enemies instead of a free cc immunity.

Elsterchen

Malic wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Soo is this suppose to be a templar buff or nerf? I really cant tell.

Its honestly neither, its a bluff. Again its got to be tested, but it would appear that its a change, to make a change.

You know a new patch every class has to have something reworked, year after year. It's actually becoming pretty sad.

^I'll go with this.

Thank you, @Joy_Division , as always your feedback is valuable. Thanks to everyone else, testing and thinking this through as well. Imo, I seriously doubt anyone exept this handfull of templars is actually interested. It seems noone in the developement departement is firm with how templars play and what troubles they face.

I mean... eclipse granting CC imunity, beeing clunky and nice isn't something new, but adding a returned dmg that is laughable plus making this skill scale of magic is just underwhelming dissapointing. Lets face it: 4k magic dmg - really, 2k magic dmg in PVP... before migitation... ? The person thinking of this should be fired for beeing exeptionally uncreative, least to say (and yes I have many other terms describing how I feel about this, if you wish I can plate them out in 3 different languages ... all violating the TOS).

... I guess enough has been said about solar barrage, too.

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno, please find someone to play a templar (preferably a magica and a stmina one) and let that person help the development departement. If you cannot find such a person in your staff, please ask @Joy_Division why playing a templar is so darn unattractive atm. Untill you find someone actually knowing about templars, please refrain from further breaking the class.

Thank you.

Joy_Division

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Before we list buffs that templars supposedly have, let's not forget they are dependent on morph choices (and thus not all templars have them) and other classes can get them too.

I don't have minor protection. But my Warden does.

Well yes I can get major sorcery from a pot and I do get minor sorcery from casting a Dawn Wrath Skill. By the other 4 classes get major sorcery without using a pot and get minor sorcery simply by being grouped with me.

Yes, I can get major protection on our healing ultimate. So can a NB on Veil, which also grants that to allies. And a Warden can get that on an ultimate that's actually pretty good.

I'm not at all impressed by the buffs accessible to templars, especially when major mending was just stripped away (without any re-compensatory unnerfing of skills such as Sweeps whose nerfs were justified because we had major mending) and the major resolve/ward skill is tied to the staying in the same spot when the developers have consciously developed PvE content so we can't do that.

Gilliamtherogue

So is no one going to comment on the fact that the new Solar Barrage is coded as a negative effect on your player, and can be purged from yourself?

If you cast Solar Barrage, and anytime within the 6 seconds, if Purge or Purifying Ritual+Morphs hits you, you lose the damage...

I literally burst out into laughter for 5 minutes at how hilarious this bug was, and to see 5 pages of feedback without mention of this bug? Where is the QA?

This appears to be happening with Rank I and all the way to Rank IV. I can't feel my face from laughter. This is a new low.

Cinbri

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

So is no one going to comment on the fact that the new Solar Barrage is coded as a negative effect on your player, and can be purged from yourself?

If you cast Solar Barrage, and anytime within the 6 seconds, if Purge or Purifying Ritual+Morphs hits you, you lose the damage...

I literally burst out into laughter for 5 minutes at how hilarious this bug was, and to see 5 pages of feedback without mention of this bug? Where is the QA?

This appears to be happening with Rank I and all the way to Rank IV. I can't feel my face from laughter. This is a new low.

There is bug report section and it already listed there.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Before we list buffs that templars supposedly have, let's not forget they are dependent on morph choices (and thus not all templars have them) and other classes can get them too.

I don't have minor protection. But my Warden does.

Well yes I can get major sorcery from a pot and I do get minor sorcery from casting a Dawn Wrath Skill. By the other 4 classes get major sorcery without using a pot and get minor sorcery simply by being grouped with me.

Yes, I can get major protection on our healing ultimate. So can a NB on Veil, which also grants that to allies. And a Warden can get that on an ultimate that's actually pretty good.

I'm not at all impressed by the buffs accessible to templars, especially when major mending was just stripped away (without any re-compensatory unnerfing of skills such as Sweeps whose nerfs were justified because we had major mending) and the major resolve/ward skill is tied to the staying in the same spot when the developers have consciously developed PvE content so we can't do that.

Those classes, while they don't need to slot morphs to get SD, they do have to slot their class skills (sorcs) while nbs can't get major crit without running outside sources. They also have pigeonholed themselves into certain builds but can't escape them because they don't have the flexibility that Templars have with their bar setups. Templars have more flexibility in the buffs, if I don't want to use degeneration I can use a pot. I can use heavy armor and do without restoring focus because you'll have the same healing received buff so you can run channeled focus for extra Regen to help with block with frost staff. You can run ele drain or restoring aura for the same minor mag drain; one will hit all enemies while the other gives a significant armor debuff. And our restoration skill line gives us the option to do with another weapon besides resto staff; and vitality pots gives us back a major healing buff we lost so you can slot swords which will buff your burning light proc while using destro staff backbar for mag return/support. Other mag classes that have their own way to increase SD have to slot resto staff for their heals and cannot purge effects off them cheaply and consistently.

There are benefits to how Templars are already setup. We can be ranged or be melee, sometimes in the same bar. And the strength of our DMG sources is that they should be consistent lower DMG, but ignore dodge roll/reflects or proc additional DMG on consistent use. Other classes are either highly reflective, highly blocked, highly dodged or have no execute/ranged skill line. Only problem is we are plauged by terrible cast times or terrible mechanics. At least we don't have the super high skill costs that DKs have lol.

Templars should control the Battlfield conditions through consistency and debuffing enemies while picking what we need to change up our offense/defense builds as the meta shifts. That's how I see the Templar class against the other classes, not flashy but works.

Joy_Division

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Before we list buffs that templars supposedly have, let's not forget they are dependent on morph choices (and thus not all templars have them) and other classes can get them too.

I don't have minor protection. But my Warden does.

Well yes I can get major sorcery from a pot and I do get minor sorcery from casting a Dawn Wrath Skill. By the other 4 classes get major sorcery without using a pot and get minor sorcery simply by being grouped with me.

Yes, I can get major protection on our healing ultimate. So can a NB on Veil, which also grants that to allies. And a Warden can get that on an ultimate that's actually pretty good.

I'm not at all impressed by the buffs accessible to templars, especially when major mending was just stripped away (without any re-compensatory unnerfing of skills such as Sweeps whose nerfs were justified because we had major mending) and the major resolve/ward skill is tied to the staying in the same spot when the developers have consciously developed PvE content so we can't do that.

Those classes, while they don't need to slot morphs to get SD, they do have to slot their class skills (sorcs) while nbs can't get major crit without running outside sources. They also have pigeonholed themselves into certain builds but can't escape them because they don't have the flexibility that Templars have with their bar setups. Templars have more flexibility in the buffs, if I don't want to use degeneration I can use a pot. I can use heavy armor and do without restoring focus because you'll have the same healing received buff so you can run channeled focus for extra Regen to help with block with frost staff. You can run ele drain or restoring aura for the same minor mag drain; one will hit all enemies while the other gives a significant armor debuff. And our restoration skill line gives us the option to do with another weapon besides resto staff; and vitality pots gives us back a major healing buff we lost so you can slot swords which will buff your burning light proc while using destro staff backbar for mag return/support. Other mag classes that have their own way to increase SD have to slot resto staff for their heals and cannot purge effects off them cheaply and consistently.

There are benefits to how Templars are already setup. We can be ranged or be melee, sometimes in the same bar. And the strength of our DMG sources is that they should be consistent lower DMG, but ignore dodge roll/reflects or proc additional DMG on consistent use. Other classes are either highly reflective, highly blocked, highly dodged or have no execute/ranged skill line. Only problem is we are plauged by terrible cast times or terrible mechanics. At least we don't have the super high skill costs that DKs have lol.

Templars should control the Battlfield conditions through consistency and debuffing enemies while picking what we need to change up our offense/defense builds as the meta shifts. That's how I see the Templar class against the other classes, not flashy but works.

Let's Count the ways.

Major Resolve: all classes
Minor Resolve: Sorc, NB, DK
Major Ward: all classes
Minor Ward: Sorc, NB, DK
Major Fortitude: DK
Minor Fortitude: Templar
Major Endurance: DK, Warden
Minor Endurance, Templar, NB, Warden
Major Intellect: none
Minor Intellect: Sorcerer, Templar, Warden
Major Sorcery: DK, NB, Warden, Sorcerer
Minor Sorcery: Templar
Major Prophecy: Templar, DK, Warden
Minor Prophecy: Sorcerer
Major Brutality: Sorcerer, NB, Warden, DK
Minor Brutality: DK
Major Savagery: Templar, DK, Warden
Minor Savagery: NB
Major Berserk: NB
Minor Berserk: NB, Warden
Major Vitality: NB
Minor Vitality: DK, Templar, NB
Major Mending: DK, Warden
Minor Mending: Templar, NB
Major Protection: NB, Warden, Templar
Minor Protection: Templar, NB, Warden
Major Evasion: NB
Minor Evasion: Warden
Major Expedition: NB, Sorcerer, DK, Warden
Minor Expedition: Sorcerer
Major Heroism: Warden
Minor Lifesteal: Warden
Minor Toughness: Warden

Major Buffs:

• Sorcerer: 5
• Nightblade: 9
• Templar: 5
• Dragonknight: 10
• Warden: 11

Minor Buffs:

• Sorcerer: 5
• Nightblade: 8
• Templar: 7
• Dragonknight: 4
• Warden: 7

The availability of buffs is most certainly not one of the strengths of the Templar Class. If anything, it is a relative weakness.

Mystrius_Archaion

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face.

How can it be good when it doesn't reflect or stop DoTs, like Puncturing Sweep and Lightning Flood and Blockade of Elements and anything else classified as DoT which are most prevalent, where even in pvp players do use DoTs and ground targeted skills?

How can it be good when it can be broken by break free so easily and give that player free CC immunity without ever hampering their movement?
It's not even real "control" if it doesn't restrict movement in some way. At the very best this skill could be, it would only cause players to run away or avoid attacking for a very brief time due to the obvious futility of doing so with their build. That's not a win. This reminds me of the change to the heavy armor passives they thought would "get players to stop attacking the heavy armor class" as if they would notice those passives or even care because they're "so strong! stop the pain!" which they aren't.

How can it be good when, in pve, it doesn't even apply to anything but the very weakest enemies?
Seriously, this is the most stupid thing about this skill ever and has always been the problem with it. You can't use it against bosses, which we really wish we could, or even against enemies with just one of those special indicators on their health bars, like trolls and gargoyles.
Give me a break! That's just the most absolutely useless "control"/"defensive" skill ever because it doesn't provide any defense against the targets you need defense against most, all because of the stupid decision to give higher class npcs COMPLETE DEBUFF AND CONTROL IMMUNITY!

Just kill the Eclipse skill in pve already and put in the tooltip that it does nothing in pve and is meant for pvp. You're just confusing newer players with the lie that it could possibly be useful in pve when really the only time it is useful is when even a skeever or mudcrab could kill them because they don't know how to play, which means they wouldn't know how to use eclipse right anyway. Are accidental benefits to ignorant players(not an insult, different definition) a reason to keep this skill useless for skilled players?


As for Solar Barrage, a point blank AoE, meant to be used in melee range, with a cast time, with the amount of enemies in any group content especially vet content that can and do those big interrupt attacks or do that "run back and fling a snare" thing or just have an AoE that staggers us, makes it another pass in most of that content.
If I'm being pressured with interrupts so my cast time skills are risky then I'll risk that time only on Puncturing Sweep or Healing Ritual which would both maybe save my life during that time while Solar Barrage wouldn't. Also, Puncturing Sweep still does something when interrupted due to it being a channel which makes it a DoT and actually faster than an instant skill for a portion of the damage and self-heal on each hit.

So, Eclipse is garbage in pve and insanely easy to counter in pvp while Solar Barrage may be close to useful but is worthless when under pressure.
Thanks for nothing.


Edit: removed duplicate line.

Mystrius_Archaion

Minno wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face. With such changes and following treatments this skill once again will become one of the best in Templar arsenal, as it once was.
Another great change is that now it breakable: yes, skill bad as CC against any defensive target, like those permablocking tanks that only holds block or healbots that only spam heals, but that can be fixed by Unstable Core morph (read below). In U14 resource sustain became important thing but Templar got unbreakable Eclipse and overall bad CCs. Now it is CC that can pressure enemy's stamina resource while becoming CC that enemy really want to CC Break as soon as possible. As new unique soft CC-debuff it fulfill it's purpose but in unique way: first - it force people to use CC breaks and pressure stamina, second - it allow to survive caster during enemy CCed, third - CC allow to pressure enemy. And it CC with duration, it means that any teammate can hard CC on him during duration of Eclipse, i.e. your usage of it won't destroy others' possibilities of CCs.
New idea of making it soft CC-debuff is very interesting and should be expanded(read below). After it lost ability to disable enemies it lost almost all group utility - teammates can't save they stamina or hp when you eclipsing enemies, but Templars already class with biggest group utility and in return of lost support can now get better Eclipse. And now it benefit Templars who actually want to fight, not carry-bot.
As example I taking fight vs permablocking dragonknight: one of my most hated enemies - right now Templar simply can't CC it coz Aurora is just too bad skill to even consider of using it and Toppling Charge main purpose de facto is gap-close, not CCing. Currently when you fight such dk you can only hope to CC him with Charge, at least for short duration, but it almost impossible - you can do it only during short period of vulnerability to CC when he swap weapons, and you have to take minimal distance for Charge to cast, and that almost impossible with all permasnares and permaroots. And even if you CC him, Charge with its a bit clunky animation grant short duration CC during which you won't be able to burst him down...
But in U16 you can slot Total Dark - and dk will be left with 2 choices - 1. waste presiouc stamina on CC Break, and holding block just won't save him anymore from this CC. I.e. TD fulfill purpose of being CC - the thing that Templar is lacked of. Second choice for dk is to keep debuffed and not waste stamina on CC Break. And that what will happen next, since 90% of dks use their razor armor skill: his second choice will be splitted for 2 choices: A.: he have to drop off block for duration off CC, making him vulnerable to all templar attacks in that time span, that is great. B.: is worst option to choose - keep attacking Templars wile permablocking. That will have terrible results for him: firstly - with TD on dk, he simply won't be able to burst Templar (check tooltip below), it will be equal to be disabled by old Eclipse. Secondly - all his attacks will proc damage return to him, even for all his 1k lightattacks will will eat back twice more damage in addition to direct attacks of Templar will proc Eclipse damage coz razor armor is direct damage that dealt to Templar upon attacks. And thirdly and best part - all damage return he will block will eat his stamina.
As result of such struggle he either will CC Break it or keep fighting with it, and in return stop being threat to Templar while simultaneously will recive large amount of damage and drain his own stamina. That is utterly amazing result.
Regarding tooltips: yes it not reflected damage but tooltip bad only for those Templars who are carry others, for tempalr that actually wana fight and survive it good enough. TD simultaneously will buffed offense and defense. And both parameters can crit, making it even stronger for high crit builds while also making independent to enemies offense capabilities. And unlike warden's Leeching Veins it don't have cooldown on proc.
That is my tooltip on *** pts template while de facto damage is higher coz such CP skills as Shatter Blows/Penetration:

Does anyone really pretend to say that CC that can simultaneously heal for same amount as dk's whip proc (and even much higher), while deal damage that only 10% weaker than initial hit of Vampire Bain on each proc (given that it can happen up to 8 procs during one duration - damage tooltip is 52936 damage in 5 sec) is bad?! Like, really? With such tooltip for every light attack enemy will get even more damage back and heal templar for more than damage dealt, or, on pts when my TD's heal crit - all enemy 6k crit Uppercauts will be completely outhealed by 6k crit heal. In addition to fact that direct attacks was Templars biggest bane since we can just purge dots, unless someone pretend that templar cleanse is bad.
But with all it's effectiveness as I said it only half-way change it really need to threat new mechanics and old mechanics that are relics of previous usage of skill:
1. CC immunity after skill expire - in Morrowind skill was made to have no counter and for that reason became short CC with CC immunity after expire. It was made coz it was impossible to CC break it and CC immunity after expire allowed to not be affected by it 100% of time, i.e. what currently happen with resource guards that apply unbreakable reflect 100% uptime...
But after skill became breakable once again - it should be restored to its former form - to not grant CC immunity on expire. It will make choice of Break it or not to Break it, otherwise 5 sec duration debuff will still be something that many enemies will accept for in return of getting free CC immunity after. In addition it going against new mechanic of soft CC-debuff: when enemy using soft CCs, like roots, waiting for it to expire wont grant immunity to roots. To have it you must actively counter it by dodge, not waiting it expire and get free immunity to next root. If it would be so - roots would start to be useless soft CC.
Given the developer comment about it, currently it a bit wrong: enemy can ignore but it won't turn battle in your favor as much as it can coz for his aggressive action of attacking and not breaking it he will get highest pvp buff - CC immunity... for not CC breaking... It is soft CC-debuff that lost group utility, so why both aspects of this(CC and debuff) must be countered by one act?!
2. Same as was on U14 pts and for that reason hopefully bug: upon purge Eclipse it grant free CC immunity. It should be fixed same as it was in U14 to not grant immunity.
3. Eclipse lost ability to CC checks on cast: well, same as Petrify, so I hope it just a bug. Coz for expensive (unlike new Petrify) skill that is targeted, it huge drawback that will making it as terrible resource eater. But if it not bug there is other solution to it: given that it is not simple soft CC, but new unique soft CC-debuff it might be get next treatment: same as current Total DArk works: split TD on 2 separate debuff: one - is CC damage reflect that can be braken, second is healing solid debuff that can't be broken but only purged; or vice versa, as both are strong. Both can be purged, but only 1 can be CC Breaked. It will allow to not waste resource on empty cast, but even when enemy have CC immunity - cast won't be wasted and will play role of debuff. On debuff list it will look same as current TD:

Visual effect used can be same as it current - debuff as shadows flowing around enemy.
If not - at least increase duration 1 sec. Only 0.5 sec boost from previous unbreakable CC mechanic is too low.
4. Morphs diversity: have to agree with everyone else - Unstable Core became completely useless morph that has absolutely no reason to be used. While TD grant strong utility, all that UC can grant is low damage aoe ~each 7-12 seconds. Currently UC is not the best coz it flaw mechanic of not being CC, and had to be removed from passive that extend duration, but it can deal damage at least. However I think it should be remained as current soft CC but get some treatments to actually become offensive morph that can work against full defensive opponents in perfect state; or at least be aggressive by default.
The way I see fixes:

• a. Same as was done once - buff it returned damage to 60%, that will make it full offense CC: being hit for like 10k on his own attacks before realizing that he debuffed is worthy to sacrifice survivability of TD. And to make it solid with concept of double debuff of TD above - let it be as current TD - apply time bomb.
• b. Same, to be solidified with double debuff concept - make it apply 2.5 sec root debuff on enemy, so if he will have CC immunity, he still can be rooted. Templar is only class without root.
• c. Decrease damage but make damage return to be Oblivion damage with time bomb 2nd debuff. It will be like "ok, you can not to break it but than your block nor your 20k shields will help you in battle". However it won't help against full defense enemy.
• d. As already suggested - keep it as current UC but make it apply unbreakable/undodgeable stun for 2 sec after explosion will hit in 3.5 sec. But this time not exclude from passive again so it will be long 5sec charging. This will make it delayed hard CC, like warden subterranean assault, that will affect full defensive opponents.
• e. Simply make it to restore 500 stamina on proc same as TD restore HP. Wont grant healing survivability but will work in both pve and pvp and tempalr will have to fight in attempt to survive.
• f. Increase damage a bit, but make all damage return to be and magnetic bomb explosion, i.e. aoe damage.

Solar Barrage - another good change but also actually only half-way change. Change differentiated it from Impusle but didn't granted any utility for making this morph independent and that why it should grant more treatments to make it usefull for juggernauts:
I see such ways:
1. Remove Empower buff. Unlike old Barrage and default skill/another morph, current Barrage became AoE DoT that can't be self-empowered, making this buff irrelevant. Those minority of of templar skills that can be empowered simply won't be casted after Barrage, but have to be used before. So we can remove it and it will keep skill as DoT. And that will allow to have it any of other treatments:
A. Remove cast time - we don't even need to theorycraft about this change coz we already have almost exact same skill with long history - Detonation. Once Proximity had to be casted skill with cast time that was removed simply coz it couldn't fulfill its purpose of melee explosion "standing there in interruptable cast and then run to enemies for melee range" simple not worked coz enemies were aleady aware of what is coming; so range morph is cast time with unlimited amount of targets, melee without cast time. It exact same mechanic as Templar Flare works - range morph with high damage, self-empower, and AoE major debuff, so Barrage could be melee DoT without cast time, empower that not working. Bombplars unite
B. Another treatment - and I prefer it more coz it will grant more utility and will be familiar with Templar "channeling" theme keep it as 1sec cast time but solidify it with another morph and allow it to apply Major Defile for 4-5 sec on targets that hitted. It will transform it into frontline aoe skill that will debuff enemies, while Dark Flare will be remained as backline range high damage support skill. Cast time in this case will be drawback that wont allow juggernauts to simply reapply skill while being focused by enemies, but have to LosIng, using shield ult to reapply it, and 1sec cast time that not decreasing speed is not a insane drawback, Dark Deal as example. Also Templar survivability is based on healings but he can't pressure other classes/builds that built same way.
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And regarding some other small changes:
1. Focus - let it have it bonuses from morphs (mana restore/vitality,protection) to be char based, not ground; keep armor buff ground-based. It will allow Templar to stop recasting Focus every 10 meters when kiting just to make it work, it will make them less turtles, coz even now when you fight in small area fights you have to spam it to have effect. There once was bug when additional effects was attached to caster and I think everyone could agree that it was making this skill much better.
2. Rite of Passage - since dk got huge buff for their Shifting Standart, we should get buff to our useless ults too. In this case I propose idea of Practiced Incantation morph change - make it cast only Templar/cast templar and 1 ally in 8 meters, grant it CC immunity for 8sec, but no longer disable caster. It will make ultimate to work for solo/duo Templars, morph will loose all(almost) group utility but in exchange will work for caster himself and will allow to actively participate in combat. Also it will stop granting armor buff from Light Weaver that equal to major protection buff, i.e. reduce default tankiness in exchange. Keep current bright sun light effect so it will be visible for both caster and enmemies that he is under its effect.
3. Restoring Spirit - to help tempalrs with tankiness make it to reduce all costs for 4% not only resources. Same as Alteration set works.
4. Sweep ultimate - make it scale from highest resource so both magplars/stamplars would have use of it.
4. Empowering Sweep ultimate - make it apply major protection buff instead of current scaling, it will make it 11% stronger in 1v1 but 9% weaker in it max spike effectiveness. Also it will no longer stack with same buff from other sources and grant too much reduction. Rename it to Empowered Sweep.
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@Wrobel

Sorry but i disagree with the eclipse presentation. It's going to be just as strong as the current, except to everyone not just magicka, but only to bad players now. As soon as a good player gets hit with this they will cc break and you'll now be screwing up your stun or your allies cc options. You're right in saying its an option in 1v1 vs perma blockers and will force stam drain, but that's something that should be addressed itself. In opened world, all you'll do to a perma blocker is make them immune to a real cc that drops block. Stamina management isn't any issue for good perma blockers in a 1v1 if built right anyway.

It'll be good for the 1 or 2 seconds to stop someone's combo, just like the current eclipse, but now i don't get my cc combo bc they will cc break while I'm recovering. When i do use it i always cc right before the effect ends to get the most out of the skill. The ability to cc break destroys that. Bad change.

Sure it works against a lot more, but no good player is going to sit there hitting themselves for 5 seconds... be real. Sure it would great against npcs, but they are as dumb as it gets.

Just to add to your last sentence, it only works against trash NPC's. Anything 1 pip or higher are immune to it. Why would anyone on the PvE side ever use this 5 second single target skill on an NPC that will probably be dead in less than 5 seconds?

And where it could have some use (6k every 2 seconds is a pretty good DoT, most mobs attack ~ once every 2 seconds) you can't use it since the mob will be immune!

I should marry unstable core with how many times I'm talking about it lol. But even on live, UC could tag one or two trash mobs plus the boss and that DMG will hit them all. Mine hits for over 10k in pve and crits for more letting me fill in with jabs while using other spells for boss fights.

But I don't raid.

On live it does tag bosses with damage, but only on the "damage only" morph. It doesn't work on PTS because the boss can't be CCed and that negates the entire skill, like shock resistance stopping concussion.

So say "goodbye" to the damage to bosses in pve after you already said goodbye to the healing from reflected spells.

Mystrius_Archaion

Zer0oo wrote: »

Can we change repentance to make this skill useful for more than 1 templer in a grp? Who should use it the healer or the stam dd or maybe the second stam templer?

It's made for stamina damage dealers. The Radiant Aura is more useful for the healer or a magicka templar due to the pretty much guaranteed magicka return every second and ability to use it multiple times and on different parts of a spread out battle more than once. Repentance is once, EVER, on a single corpse/group of corpses.

Also, more than one templar can use Power of the Light/Purifying Light because it is single target. Just target a different enemy.

Mystrius_Archaion

Solariken wrote: »

I don't agree with everything @Cinbri said BUT I think he's on the right track with suggesting Eclipse be split into 2 separate effects/debuffs, such that it is always meaningful to cast and useful in PvE boss encounters. With that in mind, here's another suggestion for the (base) spell:

The first effect is the soft CC which deals damage each time the enemy initiates a direct damage attack. It can be cleansed or broken free and obviously does not get applied to CC-immune targets or bosses.

The second effect is the time bomb - this goes through block/dodge like current and remains applied after the enemy breaks free but can be purged. It always gets applied on cast. I suggest adding Minor Maim (-15% damage) to this portion.

Just like on Live, Total Dark adds a small heal per proc on the first effect and Unstable Core increases the damage of the second effect.

1) That's exactly how it is on live, minus the minor maim debuff.

2) ANY DEBUFF MAKES BOSSES AND ELITE NPCS SHRUG OFF THE ENTIRE SKILL!
Adding minor maim just makes both morphs useless in pve since there are better damage skills in pve.

3) There are better damage skills in pve. Why do we need a "just damage" morph at all?


See my signature....why don't they just do what City of Heroes did and have a CC magnitude and CC resistance stat so that even bosses could be CCed if you stacked CC enough?
That also applied to players. That allowed for an entire class built around control that had longer fights but were often easier just because it was fun. They could control minions easily while bosses weren't suicide for the weaker classes. CC lasted longer, usually at least 8 seconds, but only on targets that had less resistance than the magnitude.

It worked like this:
You use a CC that lasts 8 seconds for magnitude 1 stun/hold/sleep/confuse(loved this)/whatever. Low rank minions were CCed. Elite NPCs and players had default(or with easy to get passives in the case of players) 2 resistance to CCs so it would take 2-3 CC uses to affect them. Bosses and tank players get 4 CC resistance so it takes 4-5 casts to affect them.
You cast a second, and possibly third, CC to affect the elite target/player. It took you a second to cast the CC again during which the first CC cast timer was going down. That means they only stack for max of 6-7 seconds for 3-2 CC stacks before the first falls off.
You cast more CC skills of the same type to stack on a player or boss, 4-5 times, which means it takes 4-5 seconds of the 8 seconds max that CC could last and the player/boss sees only 3-4 seconds CCed.

That was more than fair in that game. It wasn't a death sentence in pvp or easy mode in pve even though players could just cast that CC over and over. The main reason why is stackable CC mostly did little to no damage and required one player to target the correct enemy and keep reapplying the CC. FYI, that game had tab-target-lock so it was easy to always target the same enemy even, but still they had to respond to other things and keep themselves alive.

I would love to see this gameplay system make it into ESO because it is proven to work and fun as hell while allowing much more varied skills and a hell of a lot more strategy to fights than "stay out of red" and "purge at this time" and "attack or stop attacking at this time". It would allow CC to be used as a counter to those other mechanics.

And guess what? City of Heroes never needed enrage timers to encourage bringing dps characters with those mechanics because everyone could contribute with whatever they brought, either more group defense or more self-defense with a taunt or more damage or more control or more healing.

I miss City of Heroes so much for all the very open customization of characters and gameplay that was...just...plain...FUN! Why did the executives have to kill it while it was still profitable, even if it was less so, and without making a sequel that fixed the performance problems and improved graphics and attracted more players? Why didn't any other game company ever do similar mechanics when they were proven fun?
MMOs have been seriously much less attractive to me and dying faster and more often ever since the death of City of Heroes. The loss of City of Heroes was bad for MMOs in general.

Mystrius_Archaion

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