If a plumber accepts a job, then I expect him to do his job quickly and efficiently. If he over-charges me and does a bad job, I'd likely take him to court. Your analogy falls flat.
Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.
What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.
So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.
Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.
This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.
I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)
When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.
My friend,
It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.
People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.
On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.
Who is more entitled?
Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU
Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.
What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.
So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.
Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.
People post about bad runs but its the exception, doing lots of random normal on my warden to get skillpoints and xp, had one bad run, darkshade 2 with an weak group. All other runs has been smooth. Only normal you can get problems in is the IPC and WGT ones as low level players often end in them and they are as hard as the easiest veteran ones.Didn't read all the comments. Just read the first post and this is why I play ESO as a single player. How can multiplayer be fun when it seems lots of people are just like this. Entitled and think they are better than others.
Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.
What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.
So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.
Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.
This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.
I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)
When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.
My friend,
It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.
People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.
On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.
Who is more entitled?
Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU
Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.
What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.
So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.
Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.
This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.
I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)
When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.
My friend,
It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.
People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.
On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.
Who is more entitled?
Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU
I was not meaning for it to sound like a cry for or against entitlement. My meaning was: if the high-level players will not find time and tolerance to train the low-levels (or the ignorant) in running the higher-leveled content, the community will be divided. Since it is not possible, currently, for lower-levels to gain the skill or gear that is required for group content, that division will eventually cause failure.
While my belief is not popular, it is based on personal experience. The majority of the players are solo-runners that complete group content occasionally. These players run alone or with a friend but complete mostly solo-based content. These players are the foundation for all MMO games. Since they are usually reserved players who do not vocalize much, they are largely ignored. Some believe they do not exist. As the high-level players develop their skills, they become more demanding on what gear/level they will play with. This attitude may be normal for MMOs; however, it creates a divide between the group-content farmers, and the solo-runners. in time, that divide becomes too wide a gap to close and the solo-runners will fade away taking a large chunk of the financial support with them. With less money coming in, the game developers will be forced to cut back on new content. This will cause some of the farmers to burn out and drop off. The longer between the new content, the more people will leave. Some will come back when new content is announced, but unless someone is spending money, the time will only increase between new content releases. The game cannot be supported by the very high-levels because they already have access to everything or can make something better than what is sold. The game will die.
It is my opinion that the high-level players have a responsibility to help train, guide, and mode the next "generation" into the group-content so that they can continue to feel challenged as well. If the advanced gear could be found/earned in some form of solo challenges, then none of this would be necessary as the solo-runners can acquire the gear necessary to test themselves in the higher challenges without being a burden to other players. But this is not happening so I do fear that with the continuation of group-focused new content, we will see a decline in solo-runners (casual players) and thereby see a decline in the success of the game.
Currently, I am not asking for anyone to carry me in a dungeon. I am asking how do I gain the advanced gear without completing group content or having to grind group-content to have enough gold to make a purchase?
Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.
That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"
Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.
WhitePawPrints wrote: »Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.
That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"
Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.
Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.
So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.
WhitePawPrints wrote: »Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.
That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"
Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.
Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.
So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.
I'm actually glad you brought this up, because this is a point I failed to mention. I was leveling as a HEALER. I was never carried, as obviously there is only one healer in a group. And the point I wanna make is that if you need to level in dungeons as a noob, play a healer, NOT a dps. Templar healing is easy, an aweful lot easier than dpsing and you don't have to and actually can't freeload.
"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up when this happens each and every day and, sometimes, 5 times in a row over a span of 3 hours. And you keep going on, cuz you think it's impossible your bad luck never breaks and it never does...
WhitePawPrints wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.
That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"
Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.
Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.
So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.
I'm actually glad you brought this up, because this is a point I failed to mention. I was leveling as a HEALER. I was never carried, as obviously there is only one healer in a group. And the point I wanna make is that if you need to level in dungeons as a noob, play a healer, NOT a dps. Templar healing is easy, an aweful lot easier than dpsing and you don't have to and actually can't freeload.
Healers aren't effective in solo and overland content. It's very slow and grueling. So people that are going to level in any other way than group orientated content will not go purely heals.
Exactly. I spent a lot of time on character development, in order to avoid being 'that' dungeon player. Then ZOS would come along and nerf some aspect and set me back again.WhitePawPrints wrote: »a lot of players like to explore their options rather than read guides. In my earlier days I'd test builds on normal dungeons.
Your rationality is bit extreme here.Finally, yes there are terrible players. But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon, vet or normal, can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.
No one here is offering any solutions to the issue. It is easy to not like something... Harder to fix it so it is "Fair".
Not using the tool it one solution although not a good one.
It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.
People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.
On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.
Who is more entitled?
Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU
...Because after a certain point you can't be bothered. It's work to develope something that comes with a lot of strings. Now, I prefer solo and I prefer not to ask for help. This is not because I'm anti-social, it's because I've been there, done that and I ran out of steam.
MMOs, by nature, have tools to facilitate grouping. It's the developer's job to make these tools, make them good and actionable. Or the game will just suck.
@auronessb16_ESO I think your experience was unlucky. The majority of players online are very friendly. You should give this content another try. Also, guilds can be great places where players of all experience levels can do content together without the aggressive reactions that can sometimes be found in PUGs
blacksghost wrote: »I wish the above was true, sadly though I have found plenty of guilds were a few swiftly exclude the many, and left even more where the 660's spend half the time in guild chat bitching about new or less skilled players. Guilds may sell themselves as inclusive non judgemental but often fall well short.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.
People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.
On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.
Who is more entitled?
Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU
Players are not supposed to know or to study or research ANYTHING before they enter a dungeon. This is a GAME. You are supposed to discover and find out via trial and error.
Nowadays every game has walkthoughs all over the internet because people like to share their findings and solutions, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE to read them first - what game would THAT become ? Study first, play later ?
My very first dungeon in ESO was Spindleclutch. I was level 12ish, some undaunted NPC had told me to get there, quest marker was pointing there, so I went there. I had no clue it was an instanced dungeon, (didn't even know what that meant back then), I had no clue it was meant to be played by a group of 4 people... basically, I had no clue of anything at all. So I went in -and of course 10 seconds later I was dead and back out. Some people were standing outside, I whispered one of them, asking "I've played solo so far, but that's too hard, could you please help me in there" ?
Whoops, 1 minute later, that person had grouped three of us "outside" and herself (well, the character was a girl), and hop we were in the dungeon. And that was by far the best adrenaline rush I've had in a game ever, even until now, and I thought "wow... that's what it's like ... ?". I don't know how long we stayed in there, I don't what I or anyone was doing, all I know is that she let us do our thing and just healed us through it. That was... amazing.
Later on I met a nice guild, people explained stuff to me, and I've stuck in the game since then. While I originally had planned to do strictly the solo-story-PVE part of it. That's the long-lasting effect of amazing acts made by amazing people....Because after a certain point you can't be bothered. It's work to develope something that comes with a lot of strings. Now, I prefer solo and I prefer not to ask for help. This is not because I'm anti-social, it's because I've been there, done that and I ran out of steam.
MMOs, by nature, have tools to facilitate grouping. It's the developer's job to make these tools, make them good and actionable. Or the game will just suck.
That's your real problem. You want people's CHARACTERS to play with you but you don't want to play with people. That's just not how it works, at least not in ESO. Guilds are the alpha and omega of ESO for every single part of the game, with the single exception of solo-overland-questing gameplay. You can stick to that and never bother with people. But if you want to do group play, be it dungeons, raids, PVP, whatever... at some stage you'll reach a point where you will NEED a guild. No good player ever "got good" without a guild. No serious run of any even half-challenging content is ever done with PUGs. Progression means guilds.
You should really make a choice here, because PUGging will get you only increasingly frustrated while you progress, and develop expectations towards your fellow PUGgers. If you want to do group content efficiently, JOIN A GUILD. Else just stick to strictly solo play.
I understand that guilds, being full of those strange animals called humanbeings, are full of strings and inconvenience that come along with the nice things and relationships. But you simply cannot have it both ways. Guilds ARE the "grouping tool" you're looking for.
auronessb16_ESO wrote: »...Also, guilds can be great places where players of all experience levels can do content together without the aggressive reactions that can sometimes be found in PUGs
I know there are good people, but I'm on a console, without a mic or keyboard. Communication with guild mates is near impossible, which is why I get booted from guilds, even when I am active. I need to accept that I cannot enjoy much of ESO.
I posted in this thread to let @Vimora know that not everyone is not out to make his life miserable. Some people just want to be a part of things too.
So you are suggesting that nobody should play with PUGs. PUGs shouldn't exist because we are all supposed to make friends and play with our little, insular groups. It goes again'st my idea of MMO.
Yes, its my undaunted academy, teaching players an simple rotation, player has an bow the npc recommend using volley on groups, also about AoE, using poison arrow on harder enemies, far from optimized but purpose is to teach players an rotation.puffytheslayer wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »@puffytheslayer :
What you suggest looks more like a test rather than an actual tutorial.
While I probably wouldn't mind going through them, I'm not sure it's fine to have people take an "exam" before actually running content. I prefer the option where they try & fail & learn while doing so.
Besides, I suspect than many "requirements' that (some) good players tend to impose onto "newbies" would go far beyond that. So they wouldn't be happy anyway and it would not solve the problem.
And finally, it is true that, while most dungeons are relatively easy, the requirement are a bit higher than just block/taunt/move/DPS/heal. There are mechanics, there's group synergy, there's situational awareness, there's quite a bit of various things to get used to. People who have passed those tests would believe they're "good enough" when they're not yet good enough.
In fact, the best place for knowledge in this game is GUILDS. This is an MMO after all. The problem is with people who rely on anonymous group finder for everything in this game, because they refuse to join guilds, and I'm not sure why. I know guilds are a whole story for themselves, with all the drama and jazz, but nice and truly friendly guilds are all over the place. With some efforts, people can find one that suits them.
im sorry my off the top of the head randomly thrown together basic suggestion isnt thorough enough for you, i would reply with an essay but i graduated from uni 10 years ago and dont feel the need to write a thesis on how zos could help lower the ceiling & raise the floor (something they claim to want to do)
the idea of the tutorials i suggested were to give new players the BASIC idea of the role
basic idea
BASIC IDEA
not an end game build, but the basic fundamental idea that:-
Healers need to keep the team alive,
tanks are supposed to have things attack them,
and DD's are supposed to kill things, and since the dds are often attacked by multiple things at the same time it makes sense to use skills that attack multiple things at the same time
now im sure your going to argue my opinion again just for the sake of it, but im bored. bye!
p.s. it wasnt a test, if you has actually bothered to read my post instead of trying to find a fault in it so you could write YET ANOTHER essay in reply to a very basic idea that most people consider a good idea you would of realised that
This has the benefit that then player is asked to use an rotation he will not start chasing his own tail.
Also teaching the basic of healing and tanking,
Your rationality is bit extreme here.Finally, yes there are terrible players. But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon, vet or normal, can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.
I've never played vet dungeons as I've never felt that I was good enough. So, my limited experience is with normal dungeons. They were played to:
- Get the daily rewards.
- Practice character and build effectiveness.
- Get experience - not everyone knows what is waiting in each dungeon; some of us like the surprise...
How convenient is the the world-view you're trying to make us see this whole thread, isn't it? When you PUG, you're joining randoms, poor PUGs do not deserve rage, randoms aren't responsible, those poor queueing people aren't responsible...anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The game's designed around guilds. That's all really.
But... your choice. See, you also refuse to learn, adapt and take advice and see the obvious...just because.
DRXHarbinger wrote: »Much entitlement. How dare someone buy a game and play it.
How convenient is the the world-view you're trying to make us see this whole thread, isn't it? When you PUG, you're joining randoms, poor PUGs do not deserve rage, randoms aren't responsible, those poor queueing people aren't responsible...anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The game's designed around guilds. That's all really.
But... your choice. See, you also refuse to learn, adapt and take advice and see the obvious...just because.
Well, how. About. No?
"Want competence - join the guild, it's all about guilds". Yeah, you just want to free people from responsibility.
"Hmmm. It's a group content. So I will be like... With other people. Hmm. Maybe I should research something before joining other people so I wouldn't be a burden?" - nope, not happening in your beautiful idealistic world. Even shouldn't happen in your idealistic world.
Suppose someone queued vet as tank - got DDs who pulled 5k each - didn't finish dungeon, is understandably frustrated about it, wants to rant. HIS OWN FAULT. Shouldn't have PUGged.
Yes. The one who actually did spend his time to learn the game to pull his own weight, the one who actually worked is at fault. Not poor PUGs. Not those who PUG vet without any idea how to fulfill their role.
"Join the guild" - yeah, sure, it answers everything. "Game has no good, actually usefull tutorial - why try voicing disapproval so maybe things would change, just join the guild". "People propose some sort of testing before joining vet - HOW DARE THEY, next thing they will propose is some sort of exam for entering University after school and this is so offensive, so just join the guild". "In every situation - just **** up and join the guild".
Very convenient position. Allows you to point and laugh at frustrated players who actually worked and tried. And those who PUG vet without any consideration for others? Innocent as newborn children.
Yeah. Right.
***
Also, all of you with "but how do I get gear without running end-game content?".
Are. You. Even. Serious?
Farm normals. Farm normal dungeons, farm normal trials. What do you think you need, the golden jewellry? Pha. No you don't. Difference between blue one and golden is tiny.
Farm normal, upgrate cloth to epic, only weapons absolutely must be golden, practice rotation - woo-hoo, here comes DPS!
If you cannot pull 20-25k without things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials - things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials will not help you. They absolutely WILL NOT.