I am disgusted...

zyk

Most PVE is so absurdly easy -- including normal dungeons -- players don't have to learn how to optimize builds or learn mechanics.

I don't really blame the players because the game design guides them to this point. They are encouraged to play as they want to. *Any* build can work well for overland PVE/delves. I would say the group finder is for casual players like this first.

Furthermore, this game doesn't even have a manual or relevant tutorials. Googling will provide one who is already lost a lot of contradictory and/or outdated information.

I think that if one uses the group finder, they should expect this and be willing to be patient. I've never used the group finder because I don't want to have to deal with that.

In the larger picture, ZOS should better prepare these players and/or segment the group finder so that people looking to play with experienced players with optimized builds can do so.

Axoinus

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

anitajoneb17_ESO

puffytheslayer wrote: »

have they? because i have no idea that these guides exist,

They haven't made videos themselves, regarding combat, but they have promoted selected tutorial and build videos made by some community members such as @Alcast, @Blobsky and a few others.

They cannot possibly go beyond that, because you cannot "tell/teach people how to play" in a game that is advertised everywhere as "play how you want". Min/Maxing is players' thing. A high-level endgame top player is probably going to tell you that the best healer needs to be a templar. Which is true. ZOS' meta is "all classes can do all roles". Which is true too.

What I would like to see from ZOS is not "builds" or "how-to-play", it's more concrete details about stats, calculations, and abilities work, this kind of things. And stuff has been streamlined a bit already. Remember back in 2014, staff skill damage was calculated from weapon damage and spell crit... it's all been reversed engineered by players... how on earth is any "normal/casual" player going to figure out something like that ?

OC_Justice

Ran CoA 2 yesterday on a random Vet. Got to last boss, and well i believe it was the lack of dps taking down adds, but who knows. Did i get mad, no. I understand that not all know the game and understand how to be the best of best. We still had a descent run and no one was mad or raged. It is what it is, sometimes you end up with awesome runs and sometimes you just end. It is all part of the game. Let it go OP, these are the small things in life that you are not supposed to sweat.

Vimora

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

Sigtric

You put yourself in an environment known to more often than not involve painful and slow Dungeon runs...

What's the solution? Accept it and help them or stay the hell out of Group Finder.

Koensol

I'm having the time of my life imagining OP's face when he pugs with low dps players.

Kanar

OP, I'll tell you how to resolve this. Looks like you want to play as a healer, so queue as a healer in full healer spec (gear, skills, etc) however also carry gear to be able to switch to a vMA build (good survivability while being able to do 20k DPS).

If you find yourself in a group with crappy DPS, switch to your vMA spec. Usually it will be on the last boss and DPS will be dying all the time anyway, so just don't res them and duo it with the tank. This will work on all but the toughest dungeons. A tank and I recently duoed lord warden cause the healer quit and other DPS kept dying.

Cebasak

Vimora wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

[

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

You literally felt nauseated or repulsed by somebody with low DPS?!
A bit extreme don't you think?
Everyone has low DPS at the beginning. Its new players coming in every week (with their low DSP) that keeps this game alive.

"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up when this happens each and every day and, sometimes, 5 times in a row over a span of 3 hours. And you keep going on, cuz you think it's impossible your bad luck never breaks and it never does...

If this is truly the case, you literally should see a shrink.

Megabear

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

I understand your frustration, but at the same time you can't expect to be part of an acceptable group when you pug. Complain all you want, nothing will change.

SirAndy

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps???

That is literally impossible ...

Literally:
https://merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/misuse-of-literally

bebynnag

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

have they? because i have no idea that these guides exist,

They haven't made videos themselves, regarding combat, but they have promoted selected tutorial and build videos made by some community members such as @Alcast, @Blobsky and a few others.

They cannot possibly go beyond that, because you cannot "tell/teach people how to play" in a game that is advertised everywhere as "play how you want". Min/Maxing is players' thing. A high-level endgame top player is probably going to tell you that the best healer needs to be a templar. Which is true. ZOS' meta is "all classes can do all roles". Which is true too.

What I would like to see from ZOS is not "builds" or "how-to-play", it's more concrete details about stats, calculations, and abilities work, this kind of things. And stuff has been streamlined a bit already. Remember back in 2014, staff skill damage was calculated from weapon damage and spell crit... it's all been reversed engineered by players... how on earth is any "normal/casual" player going to figure out something like that ?

which is why my suggestion for tutorials are

how not to stand in stupid

how to taunt as a tank

how to deal aoe damage as a dd

and how to heal

the only current combat tutorail in the game tells you how to heavy attack, block & interupt im not suggesting they suggest races, weapons, classes, im talking about really basic stuff here

and them tweeting that they like alcast every now and again is not an adequate substitute for explaing how a taunt functions!

anitajoneb17_ESO

puffytheslayer wrote: »

which is why my suggestion for tutorials are

how not to stand in stupid
how to taunt as a tank
how to deal aoe damage as a dd
and how to heal

Except ZOS has never been clear (probably because they didn't make a clear choice) about the "holy trinity". The typical 1 tank - 1 healer - 2 damage dealers group is partly a players' thing too, imported from other MMOs. It always looked to me that ZOS did not want to impose it as a mandatory playstyle in ESO. They do, however, impose it in the group finder. THey sit between two chairs in that regard.
It's always the same issue, roughly half of the population coming from single player TES games, wanting jack-of-all-trades-play-as-you-want characters, and the other half coming from the MMO world expecting optimisation, performance and holy-trinity-group-play.

That's how I think the dilemma looks like - but of course I have no figures regarding the ESO population nor insight into ZOS positioning strategy.

Besides...
- how to not stand in stupid... well ok, that can be taught or shown I guess...
- How to taunt as a tank ... ok, there are only 3 taunts in the game so I guess that can be taught, too
- How to heal ? There's dozens of ways to heal in this game and ZOS surely doesn't want to show any "meta" in that regard
- How to AOE-DPS ? Same as healing...

jeanz1978

New players joining the daily random sometimes end up in DLC dungeons. It's frustrating for them and deff for the rest of the group.
Their first dungeon experience should not be DLC dungeons XD

Minyassa

I'm confused. I see people attacking the OP's statement, but they literally said zero dps. That would mean that the player is not even bothering to spam light attacks on an outleveled weapon, that means they are just trailing around behind and not attacking ever. I'm sorry, I would have a problem with that too!!

anitajoneb17_ESO

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm confused. I see people attacking the OP's statement, but they literally said zero dps.

You'll get used to it. Players who are good or believe to be good tend to call "literally zero DPS" anything below 25K. Or below their own. Or whatever they think is "not enough".

Minyassa

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm confused. I see people attacking the OP's statement, but they literally said zero dps.

You'll get used to it. Players who are good or believe to be good tend to call "literally zero DPS" anything below 25K. Or below their own. Or whatever they think is "not enough".

Oh, well that's just stupid. Clearly if someone's trying, complaining about how successful they currently are is a crappy attitude. Nobody starts this game with a finished character and already knowing how to do everything perfectly.

victoriana-blue

Vimora wrote: »

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

End game is vMA and vet hard mode dlc trials. Not dungeons.

theamazingx

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm confused. I see people attacking the OP's statement, but they literally said zero dps.

You'll get used to it. Players who are good or believe to be good tend to call "literally zero DPS" anything below 25K. Or below their own. Or whatever they think is "not enough".

Something something strawman. Actual figures have been provided in this thread. Players putting out 5-10k dps by spamming snipe or rapid strikes or some dot. Light attack spammers are a whole different level.

Mettaricana

This is the issue im hitting in the new dungeons getting absolute crap players following nothing remotely similar to mechanics. Had a dude on earth gore just spamming the synergy back to back not aiming or attacking or doing anything. Have healers dpsing people not resing the dead its an absolute sh#t fest. And wofe last night got stuff with guildies and randoms who couldn't defeat a target skeleton if all 3 ganged up on it from stealth and were cp 500-660...

anitajoneb17_ESO

theamazingx wrote: »

Actual figures have been provided in this thread.

Where ?

I mean... OP says she(he)'s literally disgusted by players who pull literally ZERO DPS. And insists later on that she doesn't use "literally" as a figure of speech.

We don't even know if it was a vet dungeon or a normal one - let alone which dungeon it is.
Also, it's quite impossible to do ZERO DPS. There's always a passive somewhere that reflects at least some damage.

To me, it looks like OP just wanted to rant about lower players, using hyperboles. No trace of care for other players as humanbeings, no trace of searching a solution to an actual problem.

bebynnag

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

which is why my suggestion for tutorials are

how not to stand in stupid
how to taunt as a tank
how to deal aoe damage as a dd
and how to heal

Except ZOS has never been clear (probably because they didn't make a clear choice) about the "holy trinity". The typical 1 tank - 1 healer - 2 damage dealers group is partly a players' thing too, imported from other MMOs. It always looked to me that ZOS did not want to impose it as a mandatory playstyle in ESO. They do, however, impose it in the group finder. THey sit between two chairs in that regard.
It's always the same issue, roughly half of the population coming from single player TES games, wanting jack-of-all-trades-play-as-you-want characters, and the other half coming from the MMO world expecting optimisation, performance and holy-trinity-group-play.

That's how I think the dilemma looks like - but of course I have no figures regarding the ESO population nor insight into ZOS positioning strategy.

Besides...
- how to not stand in stupid... well ok, that can be taught or shown I guess...
- How to taunt as a tank ... ok, there are only 3 taunts in the game so I guess that can be taught, too
- How to heal ? There's dozens of ways to heal in this game and ZOS surely doesn't want to show any "meta" in that regard
- How to AOE-DPS ? Same as healing...

i have no idea of the figures either, but overland seems to be the place for lon-wolf, rpg players, jack-of-all trait play styles

dungeons seem to be intended as specialised, which is why group finder does ask for 1 tank 1 heal 2 dds,

the fact that i can solo normal dungeons ond others can solo vet dungeons goes to show that min/maxing is not necessary for the dungeons just a basic understanding of teamwork & your role

so off the top of my head,

the current tutorial asks you to block an attack, you will be constantly attacked until you successfully block - you actually can not progress with the wailing prison tutorial uptil you successfully block an attack (i actually made an alt accout 2 weeks ago to test this was still the case)

the first time you try to use group finder you are asked to select a role, selecting that role will start a new quest (3 quests in total) each quest will begin with the avoiding stupid part - players will also be told how to alter the setting to make the stupid more visable

depending on which role you select determines what tutorial you have to complete, selecting all 3 roles measn you have to complete all 3 tutorials

the aoe tutorial could be a group of adds you are told to deal aoe damage you can not complete the tutorial until you deal aoe damage. since every class & every weapon has access to aoe skills this is in no way forcing people into a specific playstyle.

and with the healing tutorial you encounter an NPC who is at half health and you have to get them to full health, what skill you use is again irrelevant as long as it heals an ally - again not forcing anyone into a specific playstyle,

once you have completed the tutorial you are alloud to que for that role using group finder

the point being that when people Que using group finder they understand on the most basic level what is required from them
the DD test will not have a dps element, this will not be about eliminating or excluding it will be about educating players

Deheart

Wow, really wow, "Ok, I'm literally disgusted".... with this thread.

Aurie

EttinTheBreton wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

[snip] So what's the solution? [snip]

Your frustration is understandable, but your anger is misplaced. I think a solution would be to nicely offer suggestions of improvement to them (or direct them to your favorite helpful YouTubers, such as the lovely @MissBizz , Kevduit, Deltia, and others).

I was a new player in May, and now I'm helping new players that join my guild to learn how to play competitively. There were a few key moments where people helped me:

• A guildie of mine mentioned how to interrupt enemies that have the red streaks of light coming from them (totally saved me from getting frustrated with spiders, just bash em!)
• A person I was dueling introduced me to animation cancelling
• A different duelist asked me about the sets I was using, and suggested I go for more spell damage
• Many helpful people have stopped and taught me about boss mechanics in dungeons.

And now I'm able to understand most of the base game mechanics, which you must admit are not obvious without any outside help. I've helped my friends understand sets, front-bar and back-bar strategies, questing vs. grinding, and so on.

The solution? Be as helpful as possible. Do not shut down others because of their ignorance to gameplay mechanics that we ABSOLUTELY canNOT blame them for not knowing.

I so agree with your post. Tolerance is everything. We were all newbies learning the ropes once, and that doesn't just mean players new to the game....it also means more experienced players starting out on the more difficult endgame content.

If I found myself in a group with someone with an attitude like the OP I would leave that group immediately.

MLGProPlayer

This is why I play DPS. I go into every PUG expecting to do 60-70% of team damage.

Some DPSs pull less damage than the healer. Playing as a healer or tank means you can get 2 of these DPS on your team, so I understand the frustration.

acw37162

Long time coming is 1 in 1000 year rain storm that floods have a state.

A long time coming is not your range over PUG DPS that is more entitled annoyance by someone who lacks perspective.

OC_Justice

Marsha! Marsha! Marsha!

anitajoneb17_ESO

@puffytheslayer :

What you suggest looks more like a test rather than an actual tutorial.
While I probably wouldn't mind going through them, I'm not sure it's fine to have people take an "exam" before actually running content. I prefer the option where they try & fail & learn while doing so.

Besides, I suspect than many "requirements' that (some) good players tend to impose onto "newbies" would go far beyond that. So they wouldn't be happy anyway and it would not solve the problem.

And finally, it is true that, while most dungeons are relatively easy, the requirement are a bit higher than just block/taunt/move/DPS/heal. There are mechanics, there's group synergy, there's situational awareness, there's quite a bit of various things to get used to. People who have passed those tests would believe they're "good enough" when they're not yet good enough.

In fact, the best place for knowledge in this game is GUILDS. This is an MMO after all. The problem is with people who rely on anonymous group finder for everything in this game, because they refuse to join guilds, and I'm not sure why. I know guilds are a whole story for themselves, with all the drama and jazz, but nice and truly friendly guilds are all over the place. With some efforts, people can find one that suits them.

firedrgn

I dont think that's the case at all.

rotaugen454

I help new players all the time while pugging but some of them are rude in return when you give them advice. Most have been grateful though and I'll keep helping.