=>KochDerDamonen wrote: »@SirAndy @anitajoneb17_ESO OP clearly says they are literally disgusted, not that the players deal 'literally zero' dps.
"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up
KochDerDamonen wrote: »This forum makes me laugh, so many people ready to assume anyone complaining about the performance of PUG dps is an elitist with high standards. There is literally DD out there who literally light attack, with perhaps a single spell cast per fight or so. It's not putting down people with off-meta or non-min/maxed builds, It's not expecting 40k or 25k dps
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »At some stage you just get what you deserve in terms of human respect.
And?anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »How can someone just be so negative about other players (which are also players, humanbeings ?)
I don't need to make someone responsible, because people who PUG vet are by definition responsible.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Well, PUG members are per definition random anonymous. How are you going to make anonymous people responsible for anything ? Sure you can rant about them if that's doing you any good, but how's that going to help you in dungeons ?
GUILDS are the place where people stop being anonymous and can be held responsible. Guilds are, once again, the answer.
Far as OP goes, I believe the point is to vent, and I understand the need to do so. @OP, have a cookie and do find a guild because this absurd won't get better any time soonanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The part where I say "you cannot complain if you PUG" is from a practical point of view. Of course you *can* complain, but is it leading you anywhere ? I should rephrase by "it's useless to complain if you PUG".
Okay, will all due respect, I think you're just nitpicking here to make your point. It's pretty obvious what I'm upset about - it's the fact that I(well maybe along with the tank) was the only one working to achieve the common goal(which yes, is finishing the dungeon). By that I don't mean I have job-like requirements for other team members but I expect them at least TRY. Put some effort in. And sorry but I don't believe 1.5k dps at 300+ cp counts for trying.The keyword imho is Magalina's "common goal". What common goal ? Beat the dungeon ? Well, in your example, you did, and yet you were not happy because you had to carry everyone, so obviously YOUR goal was above simply beating the dungeon, and wasn't a COMMON goal.
This is a great analogy! And one I'm not sure why you'd use because it plays AGAINST your pointLet me use an analogy here. Dress code.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »=>KochDerDamonen wrote: »@SirAndy @anitajoneb17_ESO OP clearly says they are literally disgusted, not that the players deal 'literally zero' dps."Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up
That was more the part causing the more or less amused "nitpicking".
How can someone just be so negative about other players (which are also players, humanbeings ?)
How can someone play an MMO when "they can't be bothered socializing because been there done that bla bla bla" ?
If you can't be bothered, play a solo game ?
At some stage you just get what you deserve in terms of human respect.KochDerDamonen wrote: »This forum makes me laugh, so many people ready to assume anyone complaining about the performance of PUG dps is an elitist with high standards. There is literally DD out there who literally light attack, with perhaps a single spell cast per fight or so. It's not putting down people with off-meta or non-min/maxed builds, It's not expecting 40k or 25k dps
OP's rant is literally useless (like, people in group finder are going to adjust... ?) and I wouldn't mind if it were ONLY useless. But it gives an incorrect and despicable image of the ingame community. Like many players like me have testified, most people are nice and most PUG runs are just fine and enjoyable. Maybe we're just more open to other humans and less expecting, and that makes the whole difference.
This is like you all agreed to go on a hiking trip(pretty broad clothing definition, really) and then someone shows up on high heels, naturally cannot walk the path and expects you to carry them(literally ). How about we stop encouraging this kind of attitude?
What would you feel if you were surrounded by greatly incompetent people on your job, hmm? Would you "forgive and let go, because they are also human beings" or would you actually feel a desire to find like-minded people and rant "OMG THOSE IDIOTS THEY SAY 2 + 2 = 5!!!"?
Well, I'm actually surrounded by mostly competent people. Usually you don't get into PhD program in physics for nothing.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'm not sure how old you are, if or where you work, but dealing with people who are far less competent than ourselves in certain areas (and better than us in other areas) is almost everybody's situation at work. Ranting about it at home in the evening might help, but ranting randomly in the company saying those people make you want to throw up is certainly not going to lead you anywhere - to say the least.
And guess what ? If you need like-minded people to rant and feel better... get A GUILD !!!
If a plumber accepts a job, then I expect him to do his job quickly and efficiently. If he over-charges me and does a bad job, I'd likely take him to court. Your analogy falls flat.
Ah, today's litigious society.
So if you have dinner in a restaurant and need to send a dish back to the kitchen, do you take them to court? Just an example.
Personally if I am not happy with a service, I simply don't employ them again, or go to that restaurant again.
You accuse "elitists" of the extreme: "I'm awesome, so everyone owes me!". You yourself are operating by another extreme: "Noone owes anyone anything". Extreme, because there can be no "noone owes anyone anything" when we step into group environment with clear goal - finishing the dungeon.
If I am asked for assistance in something which, as I realize after first inspection, is beyond my competence - I decline.
If I in the process realize that something is beyond my competence - I apologize and leave (ideally - give contacts of some good specialist and leave).
When people (multiple people) are working on some goal, which requires certain level of experience and competence to achieve it, everyone is responsible. Other scenarios sure happen but they should not be "just accepted" and least of all - promoted.
Ummm wait. That makes zero sense. We're still talking about group dungeons, are we not? That means that the people in question queued for a group dungeon. Group. Dungeon. They did not log in to fish and then SUDDENLY find themselves in a random group instance with some stranger wanting weird stuff from them. They used the groupfinder to join a team for a dungeon. This is where they signed up for a "hiking trip".anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »This is like you all agreed to go on a hiking trip(pretty broad clothing definition, really) and then someone shows up on high heels, naturally cannot walk the path and expects you to carry them(literally ). How about we stop encouraging this kind of attitude?
You still don't get it, I'm afraid.
If you're in a guild or premade group, you all agreed to what the journey should be like : hiking trip, beach trip, sightseeing trip, whatever.
But in a PUG, noone agreed to anything, some will come in high heels, some will come in slippers, and some will come with mountain shoes. And it doesn't matter, because 95% of the content can be done in whatever shoes - even if it sometimes takes longer.
There's an even more infinite variety of minds irl. Yet for some reason we expect certain things by default. Such as mutual respect, common courtesy, politeness, etc. This is the base of our society. It is not how it always works, I understand this, but this is how it should work and how we normally expect it to work(in most environments, anyway). We're all different but we follow common set of rules to make co-existing if not pleasant then at least possible. For example if you're in a full bus and need to get out but there's someone in the way then we normally poke them slightly and politely ask if they'd move a bit and we generally expect them to move, not yell "YOU *** HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO??!!?".I think you have simply no idea of the infinite variety of completely different mindsets and expectations people play this game with.
Eh. I don't enjoy people being disrespectful to me, no. There's a difference between everyone cooperating to do a dungeon in a certain, possibly suboptimal, way and people flatout refusing to do ANYTHING and expecting you to somehow make it work or something.The difference between you and me is that I enjoy that - and apparently you don't. If every single dungeon run was the same repetitive tank-healer-DD scenario I'd have left the game long ago because it's so freaking boring (stay here, wait for tank, stack up, burn, get out of red, burn, next). Me and my friends enjoy doing dungeons in a messy and upside-down way and that's fun - and doesn't prevent us from completing them.
This is true...unfortunately. You can look at PTS history to see it if nothing else. They have no real data on PTS(PTS testers is hardly real statistics because, well, PTS), but only few times they have changed/rolled back things on PTS was when the outcry was MAJOR. And we're talking whole(well, most of it) first page of PTS forum and half of General Discussion being filled with threads on the same matter here. The constructive, yet more subtle, suggestions, generally get ignored. Only threads they actually bother commenting on are those that actually get loud enough they begin to look like they might cost them money/customers.As to hoping that ZOS will act if people rant enough on the forum - there I disagree. ZOS works with real statistics regarding the entire playerbase. Not the few of us forumers. They are not here to "please" us, they have a marketing strategy to implement. I think the only effect such threads have is preventing readers from potentially buying the game and/or joining group activities, because it sounds like we're an extremely toxic community - which is not true ingame.
And I don't understand your stubborn belief that apples are substitute to chocolate.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »With all this talking here, I'm still wondering why you insist on using/improving/judging PUGs... instead of sticking to guilds. I don't understand.
On a side note, tbh if I was a potentially new customer I think I'd be done a favor if someone/something talked me out of buying this game. In its current state this is not a game I would recommend to any of my friends.
1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
Professional:anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.
Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".
So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »On a side note, tbh if I was a potentially new customer I think I'd be done a favor if someone/something talked me out of buying this game. In its current state this is not a game I would recommend to any of my friends.
You lost me there.
Why do you keep playing ?
I don't want to get into a psychoanalytic-whatever thing here. Basically, you're still playing a game that you don't enjoy playing any more, this contradiction generates frustration which in turn you project onto PUGs. I know you'll disagree with that. In the end the difference between you and me is that I enjoy the game and you don't... I think.
Time for a break ?
Professional:anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.
Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".
So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.
relating to or belonging to a profession.
Idk, sorry, maybe the choice of word was wrong - English isn't my native, but I did explain what I mean later in post.
"Professional interaction" = impersonal one, strictly related to the task at hand. 'I don't know you, I don't want to know you, I just want to get the job done, let's combine our skills and experiences and get it done and be on our merry ways'.
More clear?
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.
Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".
So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.
Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".
So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.
In real-world terms 'amateur' is the opposite of 'professional'.
The only ESO players that can be classed as 'professional' are the ones making money from it.
As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?
puffytheslayer wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:
... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.
Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".
So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.
In real-world terms 'amateur' is the opposite of 'professional'.
The only ESO players that can be classed as 'professional' are the ones making money from it.
As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?
there isnt one!
not even after a taunt was randomly added to ice staves
there is no where within the actual game where these fundamental basic elements are explained
Yeah, you apparently are a much more social person than I amanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Oh, I understood that. But I still consider this expectation/view as totally incompatible with PUGging. Even if we take your definition of "professional" as "non-personal, strictly goal-focused"... other PUG users you might end up with may have a totally different view on it. They haven't necessarily signed up for that. And they won't necessarily have the "professional" level you expect. The fact that there's no "payment" playing a big role in that incompatibility. Also the fact that you don't choose your teammates. You don't necessarily choose your workmates either - but someone has chosen them for you or you have chosen them yourself, according to certain criteria. PUGging has no other criteria but availability.
In my view, PUGging is more like "hey, I'm alone, I feel like having a coffee and a chat, and some fun with unknown people". It may be nice as expected - or not, fun - or not, it may lead to getting new friends - or not. But that's a place where I definitely focus on people - not dungeon. The exact opposite of your view. Not saying mine or yours is better, just drastically opposed.
I understand better why we never seem to understand each other during this whole discussion. But I don't think we will come to anything more constructive than we already have...
LOL, true. There is no in-game help.puffytheslayer wrote: »
It's been changed You can no longer overtaunt if you're the only one taunting. However, several people using taunt more than 3 times in 10 seconds can and do overtaunt(which is why clueless dd/healers heavy attacking with frost staff is so frustrating).
3) But do not spam taunt. If you target is taunted too many times in short period it becomes immune to taunt. You Pierce Armor every second - boss starts ignoring you and goes for healer. Best strategy is using taunt once in ~8 sec. Because some vTrial bosses have shorter aggro time than one stated in skill description. Once per 8 sec is safe and good.
Something like that.
there isnt one!
Probably because it could offend someone's sensitive soul by impling some nonsense like that you actually must use a taunt in order to tank or something. We couldn't possibly have that, could we?
there isnt one!
Yes, I know. it was a rhetorical question.Probably because it could offend someone's sensitive soul by impling some nonsense like that you actually must use a taunt in order to tank or something. We couldn't possibly have that, could we?
Well, you can't use or misuse the taunt function if you don't actually know about it.
There point here is that a lot of this discussion relates to unskilled players attempting to play parts of the game that require some in-depth understanding of a complex array of clothing item stats; weapon stats; CP configuration and the tactics to utilise all this successfully.
Every time that I've tried to get help from the in-game system, it delivers nothing. So I and presumably a lot of other players have fronted up in random, normal dungeons to at least start practising and getting some experience. We are then confronted with prima donnas who kick someone or bail on the show entirely.
I don't have solution for this; just calling it as I see it.
Yeah, you apparently are a much more social person than I amanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Oh, I understood that. But I still consider this expectation/view as totally incompatible with PUGging. Even if we take your definition of "professional" as "non-personal, strictly goal-focused"... other PUG users you might end up with may have a totally different view on it. They haven't necessarily signed up for that. And they won't necessarily have the "professional" level you expect. The fact that there's no "payment" playing a big role in that incompatibility. Also the fact that you don't choose your teammates. You don't necessarily choose your workmates either - but someone has chosen them for you or you have chosen them yourself, according to certain criteria. PUGging has no other criteria but availability.
In my view, PUGging is more like "hey, I'm alone, I feel like having a coffee and a chat, and some fun with unknown people". It may be nice as expected - or not, fun - or not, it may lead to getting new friends - or not. But that's a place where I definitely focus on people - not dungeon. The exact opposite of your view. Not saying mine or yours is better, just drastically opposed.
I understand better why we never seem to understand each other during this whole discussion. But I don't think we will come to anything more constructive than we already have...
All my "social energy" pretty much goes to guilds, so deep social interactions is the very last thing I want in PUG. Doesn't mean I'm going full anti-social, just asocial: I say "hi", explain machanics if needed, say "thx for the run" if we finish the dungeon - and that's it.
To be completely clear: I don't have any other expectations, but finishing the dungeon, when I PUG. No dying and 30k+ DPS is for guildies who want to do vMoL. From PUG I want simple completion. If HM, I count the run glorious.
So when other DD (or all two if I level Undaunted for support char) do not pull enough, it's extremely - rant-deserving - frustrating. My DD chars are usually pulling ~25k without Undaunted and final polish, I make sure of that, but it's not enough to outright carry. So I basicly wasted time in queue and also got penalty. YayLOL, true. There is no in-game help.puffytheslayer wrote: »
So what you need to know if you're a tank:
1) There is no AOE taunt. Only single target. One from One-Handed and Shield skill-line and one from Undaunted. You really need one from Undaunted, because it's ranged.
2) It's not only about aggro, but also about debuff. Pierce Armor - taunt from One-Handed and Shield - debuffs boss on >5k for both Spell and Physical resistance. Debuff lasts shorter than aggro. Don't recast on aggro, recast on debuff.
3) But do not spam taunt. If you target is taunted too many times in short period it becomes immune to taunt. You Pierce Armor every second - boss starts ignoring you and goes for healer. Best strategy is using taunt once in ~8 sec. Because some vTrial bosses have shorter aggro time than one stated in skill description. Once per 8 sec is safe and good.
Something like that.
Nope, it still worksIt's been changed You can no longer overtaunt if you're the only one taunting. However, several people using taunt more than 3 times in 10 seconds can and do overtaunt(which is why clueless dd/healers heavy attacking with frost staff is so frustrating).
Far as taunt in general goes, some bosses are immune to taunts, either fully or partially(or follow special mechanics such as Planar in WGT who follows whoever closes pinion), like Volenfell pre-gargoyle boss and last DC I boss in spinning stage(follow random player, nothing to be done about it).
WhitePawPrints wrote: »But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.