I am disgusted...

anitajoneb17_ESO

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

@SirAndy @anitajoneb17_ESO OP clearly says they are literally disgusted, not that the players deal 'literally zero' dps.

=>

Vimora wrote: »

"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up

That was more the part causing the more or less amused "nitpicking".
How can someone just be so negative about other players (which are also players, humanbeings ?)
How can someone play an MMO when "they can't be bothered socializing because been there done that bla bla bla" ?
If you can't be bothered, play a solo game ?
At some stage you just get what you deserve in terms of human respect.

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

This forum makes me laugh, so many people ready to assume anyone complaining about the performance of PUG dps is an elitist with high standards. There is literally DD out there who literally light attack, with perhaps a single spell cast per fight or so. It's not putting down people with off-meta or non-min/maxed builds, It's not expecting 40k or 25k dps

OP's rant is literally useless (like, people in group finder are going to adjust... ?) and I wouldn't mind if it were ONLY useless. But it gives an incorrect and despicable image of the ingame community. Like many players like me have testified, most people are nice and most PUG runs are just fine and enjoyable. Maybe we're just more open to other humans and less expecting, and that makes the whole difference.

Balamoor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

At some stage you just get what you deserve in terms of human respect.

Trust me they deserve much worse, it's just that most people (Contrary to misinformation) are too civil about it.


"No one gets what they deserve and that is a mercy." Bob Dylan.

Pepper8Jack

Prior to the release of homestead, console did not have reliable dps testing, so until then I had no idea way my dps was.

Despite that, I completed all vet dungeons, including no -deathing HM vWGT on my second run through, 3-manning HM vICP, and getting flawless conquerer.

90% of my vet dungeons were done with 2 friends and a random healer.

Homestead came, I bought a target skeleton, and both me and my dps friend found out that we were sub 20k dps.

DPS isn't everything people, and you definitely don't need to be pushing 30k+ to beat even the toughest vet dungeons.

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

How can someone just be so negative about other players (which are also players, humanbeings ?)

And?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, PUG members are per definition random anonymous. How are you going to make anonymous people responsible for anything ? Sure you can rant about them if that's doing you any good, but how's that going to help you in dungeons ?
GUILDS are the place where people stop being anonymous and can be held responsible. Guilds are, once again, the answer.

I don't need to make someone responsible, because people who PUG vet are by definition responsible.

If OP is talking about normal dungeons, I sure have some questions But if he talks about vet, I can understand and sympathize 100%.

What would you feel if you were surrounded by greatly incompetent people on your job, hmm? Would you "forgive and let go, because they are also human beings" or would you actually feel a desire to find like-minded people and rant "OMG THOSE IDIOTS THEY SAY 2 + 2 = 5!!!"?

1) Ranting doesn't change the situation, but it sure makes us feel better. That's how human beings work, breaking news. If we are frustrated, we talk and find support and understanding and things become more tolerable. So, you know... If you are the advocate of socializing, stop telling people to be silent about their frustration. Socializing includes everything, you know.

2) Do not even start with "job comparison isn't correct, it's just a game". Because no - vet isn't "just a game". Vet dungeons actually have DPS checks and are sometimes mechanics heavy. They are not for everyone and before entering vet people are responsible to make sure that they can pull their own weight in group content. If they fail - they get what they get. Just like in real life - if we fail where other people are concerned so our mistake screws not only us, we get frustrated rant at best.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The part where I say "you cannot complain if you PUG" is from a practical point of view. Of course you *can* complain, but is it leading you anywhere ? I should rephrase by "it's useless to complain if you PUG".

Far as OP goes, I believe the point is to vent, and I understand the need to do so. @OP, have a cookie and do find a guild because this absurd won't get better any time soon

Far as me and why I'm in every thread on the matter, it's because I want things to change. But it is not up to players to change things in the global scale of things, it's only up to ZOS, and it's a long time knowledge that only times ZOS changes something is when the whining becomes too loud to ignore. They dgaf about constructive threads and suggestions, but if all the front page is filed with swearing, raging and baiting threads on the same matter, they will edit them all and then actually try to change something. It sucks that this is the only way to get through but it is what it is. So yeah.

Community being split like this with no ways to close the gap IS a problem, I believe even you admitted it in another thread. It's become a lot worse of one over time too. Something must be done. ZOS needs to understand that in the long term this is more important than how to get people to spend more money on crown crates.

The keyword imho is Magalina's "common goal". What common goal ? Beat the dungeon ? Well, in your example, you did, and yet you were not happy because you had to carry everyone, so obviously YOUR goal was above simply beating the dungeon, and wasn't a COMMON goal.

Okay, will all due respect, I think you're just nitpicking here to make your point. It's pretty obvious what I'm upset about - it's the fact that I(well maybe along with the tank) was the only one working to achieve the common goal(which yes, is finishing the dungeon). By that I don't mean I have job-like requirements for other team members but I expect them at least TRY. Put some effort in. And sorry but I don't believe 1.5k dps at 300+ cp counts for trying.

Let me use an analogy here. Dress code.

This is a great analogy! And one I'm not sure why you'd use because it plays AGAINST your point

There is a dress code for dungeons. Sure there's the whole "play how you want" and "I don't have time nor wish to farm bis gear" but some things are kind of common sense. If you're a tank with no taunt, you're not following the dress code. If you're a tank that dies every single trash pull...see above. If you're a healer without heals...if you're a dps not even pulling 7-10k dps in a VET dungeon...if you're a dps using a taunt...

This is like you all agreed to go on a hiking trip(pretty broad clothing definition, really) and then someone shows up on high heels, naturally cannot walk the path and expects you to carry them(literally ). How about we stop encouraging this kind of attitude?

KochDerDamonen

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

@SirAndy @anitajoneb17_ESO OP clearly says they are literally disgusted, not that the players deal 'literally zero' dps.

=>

Vimora wrote: »

"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up

That was more the part causing the more or less amused "nitpicking".
How can someone just be so negative about other players (which are also players, humanbeings ?)
How can someone play an MMO when "they can't be bothered socializing because been there done that bla bla bla" ?
If you can't be bothered, play a solo game ?
At some stage you just get what you deserve in terms of human respect.

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

This forum makes me laugh, so many people ready to assume anyone complaining about the performance of PUG dps is an elitist with high standards. There is literally DD out there who literally light attack, with perhaps a single spell cast per fight or so. It's not putting down people with off-meta or non-min/maxed builds, It's not expecting 40k or 25k dps

OP's rant is literally useless (like, people in group finder are going to adjust... ?) and I wouldn't mind if it were ONLY useless. But it gives an incorrect and despicable image of the ingame community. Like many players like me have testified, most people are nice and most PUG runs are just fine and enjoyable. Maybe we're just more open to other humans and less expecting, and that makes the whole difference.

@anitajoneb17_ESO My defense of the OP begins and ends with what I said there. PUGs can become extremely frustrating as a support role for a variety of reasons, and one of them is certainly that the game does a poor job of helping players scale into making use of the tools they have access to for harder content. Even if that 'harder content' is a normal (or easier vet) dungeon that most forum-goers would have a laugh about soloing blindfolded or something.

(by doing literally zero dps :^) )

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

This is like you all agreed to go on a hiking trip(pretty broad clothing definition, really) and then someone shows up on high heels, naturally cannot walk the path and expects you to carry them(literally ). How about we stop encouraging this kind of attitude?

You still don't get it, I'm afraid.
If you're in a guild or premade group, you all agreed to what the journey should be like : hiking trip, beach trip, sightseeing trip, whatever.
But in a PUG, noone agreed to anything, some will come in high heels, some will come in slippers, and some will come with mountain shoes. And it doesn't matter, because 95% of the content can be done in whatever shoes - even if it sometimes takes longer.

I think you have simply no idea of the infinite variety of completely different mindsets and expectations people play this game with.

The difference between you and me is that I enjoy that - and apparently you don't. If every single dungeon run was the same repetitive tank-healer-DD scenario I'd have left the game long ago because it's so freaking boring (stay here, wait for tank, stack up, burn, get out of red, burn, next). Me and my friends enjoy doing dungeons in a messy and upside-down way and that's fun - and doesn't prevent us from completing them.

Of course when I PUG and people seem to follow the "usual" strategy I adapt. But when people are either messy or clueless (or both) and it goes messy, that's so fun too !

There is no dress code in dungeons. Every group and guild sets up its own dress code. And of course there is no dress code in PUGs - you would like that there's one (hence the demand for tutorials) and I prefer it freestyle. That's where we disagree. (That's fine, I'm not saying you're wrong, it's all personal preference).

Of course all this would be far less of a problem if soft caps were still implemented and there wasn't such a huge gap between players - I can only agree with you on that.

As to hoping that ZOS will act if people rant enough on the forum - there I disagree. ZOS works with real statistics regarding the entire playerbase. Not the few of us forumers. They are not here to "please" us, they have a marketing strategy to implement. I think the only effect such threads have is preventing readers from potentially buying the game and/or joining group activities, because it sounds like we're an extremely toxic community - which is not true ingame.

Dantaria wrote: »

What would you feel if you were surrounded by greatly incompetent people on your job, hmm? Would you "forgive and let go, because they are also human beings" or would you actually feel a desire to find like-minded people and rant "OMG THOSE IDIOTS THEY SAY 2 + 2 = 5!!!"?

I'm not sure how old you are, if or where you work, but dealing with people who are far less competent than ourselves in certain areas (and better than us in other areas) is almost everybody's situation at work. Ranting about it at home in the evening might help, but ranting randomly in the company saying those people make you want to throw up is certainly not going to lead you anywhere - to say the least.

And guess what ? If you need like-minded people to rant and feel better... get A GUILD !!!

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure how old you are, if or where you work, but dealing with people who are far less competent than ourselves in certain areas (and better than us in other areas) is almost everybody's situation at work. Ranting about it at home in the evening might help, but ranting randomly in the company saying those people make you want to throw up is certainly not going to lead you anywhere - to say the least.

And guess what ? If you need like-minded people to rant and feel better... get A GUILD !!!

Well, I'm actually surrounded by mostly competent people. Usually you don't get into PhD program in physics for nothing.

But it does sometimes happen. And when it happen - we are frustrated beyond measure, because this isn't normal and should never be accepted as normal.

"Almost everybody's situation at work" does not equal "normal/okay/as it should be".

Do I even need to explain why comparing company to forum is fallacy? The institution with certain corporate policies and ethics and pretty much public platform? Really?

You accuse "elitists" of the extreme: "I'm awesome, so everyone owes me!". You yourself are operating by another extreme: "Noone owes anyone anything". Extreme, because there can be no "noone owes anyone anything" when we step into group environment with clear goal - finishing the dungeon.

If I am asked for assistance in something which, as I realize after first inspection, is beyond my competence - I decline.
If I in the process realize that something is beyond my competence - I apologize and leave (ideally - give contacts of some good specialist and leave).

When people (multiple people) are working on some goal, which requires certain level of experience and competence to achieve it, everyone is responsible. Other scenarios sure happen but they should not be "just accepted" and least of all - promoted.

starkerealm

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Morbash wrote: »

If a plumber accepts a job, then I expect him to do his job quickly and efficiently. If he over-charges me and does a bad job, I'd likely take him to court. Your analogy falls flat.

Ah, today's litigious society.

So if you have dinner in a restaurant and need to send a dish back to the kitchen, do you take them to court? Just an example.

Personally if I am not happy with a service, I simply don't employ them again, or go to that restaurant again.

You get that is exactly the intended purpose of litigation, right? Someone took an action or failed to take an agreed upon action, and as a result a tort (harm) was committed.

You hire someone to do work for you, they overcharge, and don't deliver, that is the kind of thing you sue someone for. That's what it's there for. You may settle out of court, but that is the purpose of that system.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dantaria wrote: »

You accuse "elitists" of the extreme: "I'm awesome, so everyone owes me!". You yourself are operating by another extreme: "Noone owes anyone anything". Extreme, because there can be no "noone owes anyone anything" when we step into group environment with clear goal - finishing the dungeon.

I agree that these discussions too often tend to caricature extreme attitudes (both our fault, forum format, etc...) . It's not that I think that "noone owes anyone anything" (that's yet another topic...), it's more like "how do you want to "force" anyone to feel responsible or to do something they're reluctant to do if you're aren't related by some sort of social environment (i.e. guild) ?

Dantaria wrote: »

If I am asked for assistance in something which, as I realize after first inspection, is beyond my competence - I decline.
If I in the process realize that something is beyond my competence - I apologize and leave (ideally - give contacts of some good specialist and leave).
When people (multiple people) are working on some goal, which requires certain level of experience and competence to achieve it, everyone is responsible. Other scenarios sure happen but they should not be "just accepted" and least of all - promoted.

If you need assistance or teammates for something related to physics (you mentioned it was your area of expertise), are you going to ask in your university (Guild), or randomly in the street (PUG) ?
That's again a bit of a caricature, but really, imho, expecting anything from a PUG is just like expecting something from a random person in the street. It's ok if you're asking for the time, but if you need something more specific, you better stick to pre-selected people.

With all this talking here, I'm still wondering why you insist on using/improving/judging PUGs... instead of sticking to guilds. I don't understand.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

This is like you all agreed to go on a hiking trip(pretty broad clothing definition, really) and then someone shows up on high heels, naturally cannot walk the path and expects you to carry them(literally ). How about we stop encouraging this kind of attitude?

You still don't get it, I'm afraid.
If you're in a guild or premade group, you all agreed to what the journey should be like : hiking trip, beach trip, sightseeing trip, whatever.
But in a PUG, noone agreed to anything, some will come in high heels, some will come in slippers, and some will come with mountain shoes. And it doesn't matter, because 95% of the content can be done in whatever shoes - even if it sometimes takes longer.

Ummm wait. That makes zero sense. We're still talking about group dungeons, are we not? That means that the people in question queued for a group dungeon. Group. Dungeon. They did not log in to fish and then SUDDENLY find themselves in a random group instance with some stranger wanting weird stuff from them. They used the groupfinder to join a team for a dungeon. This is where they signed up for a "hiking trip".

Next, in order to do so they must've chosen a role because iirc by default none is selected. This is where they volunteered for "I'll be that hiker responsible for setting the tents up at night"(just a random example, I realize hiking trip doesn't have to work like that). They. Volunteered. No one forced them to do this.

I think you have simply no idea of the infinite variety of completely different mindsets and expectations people play this game with.

There's an even more infinite variety of minds irl. Yet for some reason we expect certain things by default. Such as mutual respect, common courtesy, politeness, etc. This is the base of our society. It is not how it always works, I understand this, but this is how it should work and how we normally expect it to work(in most environments, anyway). We're all different but we follow common set of rules to make co-existing if not pleasant then at least possible. For example if you're in a full bus and need to get out but there's someone in the way then we normally poke them slightly and politely ask if they'd move a bit and we generally expect them to move, not yell "YOU *** HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO??!!?".

If you volunteer(notice the part "volunteer", too) to take part in a team game irl, you're expected to follow certain rules. Can you and your friends play football walking on your hands? Absolutely, if this is what you all want to do, why not. Maybe wouldn't be very appropriate to call it football anymore but if you have fun that's what matters. However if a stranger yells "hey guys anyone for a football match??" and you volunteer then try playing the game on your hands you'll probably get kicked, and "but I just wanna play how I want!" will not fly.

If you choose to partake in a group activity and choose a role to do so then refuse/are unable to do the role you signed up for(and you refuse to even put any effort into trying), this is not being a special snowflake with unique mindset and expectations. This is being selfish, disrespectful and mean to your teammates, simple as that.

The difference between you and me is that I enjoy that - and apparently you don't. If every single dungeon run was the same repetitive tank-healer-DD scenario I'd have left the game long ago because it's so freaking boring (stay here, wait for tank, stack up, burn, get out of red, burn, next). Me and my friends enjoy doing dungeons in a messy and upside-down way and that's fun - and doesn't prevent us from completing them.

Eh. I don't enjoy people being disrespectful to me, no. There's a difference between everyone cooperating to do a dungeon in a certain, possibly suboptimal, way and people flatout refusing to do ANYTHING and expecting you to somehow make it work or something.
Personally, I find stack and burn boring. I have run most of vet dungeons in this game as 4 dps, 3 dps+tank/healer, 2 people, 4 naked people, etc...I have 4-5 manned vet 14 Mantikora back when there was no vet/non vet trial thing. I solo kited Manti in 7/7 light armor when 3-4 others went down the hole. This was probably dumbest thing I ever did but one most fun too Probably cost me thousands of pots and gems in the end too. However, when for example I felt like doing a naked run I went to my friends and we talked it over and agreed it'd be fun and did it together. Some dungeons we could not do like this but it was fun still and was not time wasted by any means. But I wouldn't dream of queueing into a random like this. I mean...just like...what? How? That'd mean the other 3 people have to carry me so bad...how could I possibly do this to other people, who have their own lives and things to do other than carry me in a dungeon? Yet there're people in dungeons who perform worse than I did completely naked and try to bite your head off if you offer advice.

As to hoping that ZOS will act if people rant enough on the forum - there I disagree. ZOS works with real statistics regarding the entire playerbase. Not the few of us forumers. They are not here to "please" us, they have a marketing strategy to implement. I think the only effect such threads have is preventing readers from potentially buying the game and/or joining group activities, because it sounds like we're an extremely toxic community - which is not true ingame.

This is true...unfortunately. You can look at PTS history to see it if nothing else. They have no real data on PTS(PTS testers is hardly real statistics because, well, PTS), but only few times they have changed/rolled back things on PTS was when the outcry was MAJOR. And we're talking whole(well, most of it) first page of PTS forum and half of General Discussion being filled with threads on the same matter here. The constructive, yet more subtle, suggestions, generally get ignored. Only threads they actually bother commenting on are those that actually get loud enough they begin to look like they might cost them money/customers.

On a side note, tbh if I was a potentially new customer I think I'd be done a favor if someone/something talked me out of buying this game. In its current state this is not a game I would recommend to any of my friends.

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

With all this talking here, I'm still wondering why you insist on using/improving/judging PUGs... instead of sticking to guilds. I don't understand.

And I don't understand your stubborn belief that apples are substitute to chocolate.

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one: 'I don't know you, I neither like or dislike you, we're simply people with common goal - let's do it'. Guilds require forming attachments. Guild will be absolutely the same PUG... unless you start actively interacting to people, go join the Discord, etc.

Breaking news - not everyone want that. And 2nd breaking news: in no way "professional" interaction is inferior to guild one. You continuesly try to press the point that "MMO is not single-player game, socialize or gtfo and only joining the guild is socializing". Which is false on all possible levels.

Welcome to real life: sometimes you have collegues you know and you consistenly work on projects together. And sometimes you're "visiting specialist": you go to people you know you will never see after the work is done and just get the work done. Some people actually prefer to be "visiting specialists".

2) Even those who are part of the guild also PUG.
I certainly run vTrials with guildies. I go for skins and achievements with guildies. But I in no way will ask guildies to 'Pls, help me level Undaunted on my 4 alts'. I literally have 4 alts. What am I suppose to do? Drag people through dungeons they don't need to run again (they don't need anything from there) several times for four characters?

I level alt - I PUG vet.
I log in in odd hour (and that does happen, because my job hours are strange to say the least) - I PUG.

PUG and guilds are extremely different and they exist for different interactions. And you are acting just like Marie Antoinette.

"They don't have bread? Let them eat pastry!"

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

On a side note, tbh if I was a potentially new customer I think I'd be done a favor if someone/something talked me out of buying this game. In its current state this is not a game I would recommend to any of my friends.

You lost me there.
Why do you keep playing ?

I don't want to get into a psychoanalytic-whatever thing here. Basically, you're still playing a game that you don't enjoy playing any more, this contradiction generates frustration which in turn you project onto PUGs. I know you'll disagree with that. In the end the difference between you and me is that I enjoy the game and you don't... I think.

Time for a break ?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

Professional:
relating to or belonging to a profession.

Idk, sorry, maybe the choice of word was wrong - English isn't my native, but I did explain what I mean later in post.

"Professional interaction" = impersonal one, strictly related to the task at hand. 'I don't know you, I don't want to know you, I just want to get the job done, let's combine our skills and experiences and get it done and be on our merry ways'.

More clear?

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

On a side note, tbh if I was a potentially new customer I think I'd be done a favor if someone/something talked me out of buying this game. In its current state this is not a game I would recommend to any of my friends.

You lost me there.
Why do you keep playing ?

I don't want to get into a psychoanalytic-whatever thing here. Basically, you're still playing a game that you don't enjoy playing any more, this contradiction generates frustration which in turn you project onto PUGs. I know you'll disagree with that. In the end the difference between you and me is that I enjoy the game and you don't... I think.

Time for a break ?

Who said I keep playing? Making assumptions now, aren't we?!;P
Lol jk. I haven't logged in for about a week and haven't "really" played for quite a bit longer though. There're a few things I still find fun and would like to finish such as housing and new dungeons with friends(still gotta complete them) but overall state of the game is making me not feel like playing it atm. Which doesn't mean I have to stop posting on the forums though, I keep in touch with some of my eso friends out of the game and I still care for the game greatly.

Edit: just to make it clear, I do not regret buying and playing ESO. I have had great fun in it, I have met some great people in it, some of whom became my good friends, etc. However I believe this game used to be significantly better, more...whole in some very important ways back in the day and new player will now not get to experience what made this game really great. Granted just imho, albeit not an uncommon one afaik.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dantaria wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

Professional:
relating to or belonging to a profession.

Idk, sorry, maybe the choice of word was wrong - English isn't my native, but I did explain what I mean later in post.

"Professional interaction" = impersonal one, strictly related to the task at hand. 'I don't know you, I don't want to know you, I just want to get the job done, let's combine our skills and experiences and get it done and be on our merry ways'.

More clear?

Oh, I understood that. But I still consider this expectation/view as totally incompatible with PUGging. Even if we take your definition of "professional" as "non-personal, strictly goal-focused"... other PUG users you might end up with may have a totally different view on it. They haven't necessarily signed up for that. And they won't necessarily have the "professional" level you expect. The fact that there's no "payment" playing a big role in that incompatibility. Also the fact that you don't choose your teammates. You don't necessarily choose your workmates either - but someone has chosen them for you or you have chosen them yourself, according to certain criteria. PUGging has no other criteria but availability.

In my view, PUGging is more like "hey, I'm alone, I feel like having a coffee and a chat, and some fun with unknown people". It may be nice as expected - or not, fun - or not, it may lead to getting new friends - or not. But that's a place where I definitely focus on people - not dungeon. The exact opposite of your view. Not saying mine or yours is better, just drastically opposed.

I understand better why we never seem to understand each other during this whole discussion. But I don't think we will come to anything more constructive than we already have...

Yarlenzey

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

In real-world terms 'amateur' is the opposite of 'professional'.

The only ESO players that can be classed as 'professional' are the ones making money from it.


As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?

bebynnag

Yarlenzey wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

In real-world terms 'amateur' is the opposite of 'professional'.

The only ESO players that can be classed as 'professional' are the ones making money from it.


As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?

there isnt one!

not even after a taunt was randomly added to ice staves

there is no where within the actual game where these fundamental basic elements are explained

Magdalina

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Yarlenzey wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

1) PUG and guild are very different forms of social interaction. PUG is "professional" one:

... and you lost me there. A "professional" interaction is an interaction in which people either pay or are paid for a good/service/work. According to standards that are being pre-discussed.

Exactly the opposite of anything "PUG".

So I'll leave it at that for now because, with such opposite (and imho absurd) premises, we won't go anywhere.

In real-world terms 'amateur' is the opposite of 'professional'.

The only ESO players that can be classed as 'professional' are the ones making money from it.


As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?

there isnt one!

not even after a taunt was randomly added to ice staves

there is no where within the actual game where these fundamental basic elements are explained

Probably because it could offend someone's sensitive soul by implying some nonsense like that you actually must use a taunt in order to tank or something. We couldn't possibly have that, could we?

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Oh, I understood that. But I still consider this expectation/view as totally incompatible with PUGging. Even if we take your definition of "professional" as "non-personal, strictly goal-focused"... other PUG users you might end up with may have a totally different view on it. They haven't necessarily signed up for that. And they won't necessarily have the "professional" level you expect. The fact that there's no "payment" playing a big role in that incompatibility. Also the fact that you don't choose your teammates. You don't necessarily choose your workmates either - but someone has chosen them for you or you have chosen them yourself, according to certain criteria. PUGging has no other criteria but availability.

In my view, PUGging is more like "hey, I'm alone, I feel like having a coffee and a chat, and some fun with unknown people". It may be nice as expected - or not, fun - or not, it may lead to getting new friends - or not. But that's a place where I definitely focus on people - not dungeon. The exact opposite of your view. Not saying mine or yours is better, just drastically opposed.

I understand better why we never seem to understand each other during this whole discussion. But I don't think we will come to anything more constructive than we already have...

Yeah, you apparently are a much more social person than I am

All my "social energy" pretty much goes to guilds, so deep social interactions is the very last thing I want in PUG. Doesn't mean I'm going full anti-social, just asocial: I say "hi", explain machanics if needed, say "thx for the run" if we finish the dungeon - and that's it.

To be completely clear: I don't have any other expectations, but finishing the dungeon, when I PUG. No dying and 30k+ DPS is for guildies who want to do vMoL. From PUG I want simple completion. If HM, I count the run glorious.

So when other DD (or all two if I level Undaunted for support char) do not pull enough, it's extremely - rant-deserving - frustrating. My DD chars are usually pulling ~25k without Undaunted and final polish, I make sure of that, but it's not enough to outright carry. So I basicly wasted time in queue and also got penalty. Yay

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Yarlenzey wrote: »

As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?

there isnt one!

not even after a taunt was randomly added to ice staves

there is no where within the actual game where these fundamental basic elements are explained

LOL, true. There is no in-game help.

So what you need to know if you're a tank:

1) There is no AOE taunt. Only single target. One from One-Handed and Shield skill-line and one from Undaunted. You really need one from Undaunted, because it's ranged.

2) It's not only about aggro, but also about debuff. Pierce Armor - taunt from One-Handed and Shield - debuffs boss on >5k for both Spell and Physical resistance. Debuff lasts shorter than aggro. Don't recast on aggro, recast on debuff.

3) But do not spam taunt. If you target is taunted too many times in short period it becomes immune to taunt. You Pierce Armor every second - boss starts ignoring you and goes for healer. Best strategy is using taunt once in ~8 sec. Because some vTrial bosses have shorter aggro time than one stated in skill description. Once per 8 sec is safe and good.

Something like that.

Magdalina

Dantaria wrote: »

3) But do not spam taunt. If you target is taunted too many times in short period it becomes immune to taunt. You Pierce Armor every second - boss starts ignoring you and goes for healer. Best strategy is using taunt once in ~8 sec. Because some vTrial bosses have shorter aggro time than one stated in skill description. Once per 8 sec is safe and good.

Something like that.

It's been changed You can no longer overtaunt if you're the only one taunting. However, several people using taunt more than 3 times in 10 seconds can and do overtaunt(which is why clueless dd/healers heavy attacking with frost staff is so frustrating).

Far as taunt in general goes, some bosses are immune to taunts, either fully or partially(or follow special mechanics such as Planar in WGT who follows whoever closes pinion), like Volenfell pre-gargoyle boss and last DC I boss in spinning stage(follow random player, nothing to be done about it).

Yarlenzey

there isnt one!

Yes, I know. it was a rhetorical question.

Probably because it could offend someone's sensitive soul by impling some nonsense like that you actually must use a taunt in order to tank or something. We couldn't possibly have that, could we?

Well, you can't use or misuse the taunt function if you don't actually know about it.


There point here is that a lot of this discussion relates to unskilled players attempting to play parts of the game that require some in-depth understanding of a complex array of clothing item stats; weapon stats; CP configuration and the tactics to utilise all this successfully.

Every time that I've tried to get help from the in-game system, it delivers nothing. So I and presumably a lot of other players have fronted up in random, normal dungeons to at least start practising and getting some experience. We are then confronted with prima donnas who kick someone or bail on the show entirely.

I don't have solution for this; just calling it as I see it.

Magdalina

Yarlenzey wrote: »

there isnt one!

Yes, I know. it was a rhetorical question.

Probably because it could offend someone's sensitive soul by impling some nonsense like that you actually must use a taunt in order to tank or something. We couldn't possibly have that, could we?

Well, you can't use or misuse the taunt function if you don't actually know about it.


There point here is that a lot of this discussion relates to unskilled players attempting to play parts of the game that require some in-depth understanding of a complex array of clothing item stats; weapon stats; CP configuration and the tactics to utilise all this successfully.

Every time that I've tried to get help from the in-game system, it delivers nothing. So I and presumably a lot of other players have fronted up in random, normal dungeons to at least start practising and getting some experience. We are then confronted with prima donnas who kick someone or bail on the show entirely.

I don't have solution for this; just calling it as I see it.

When I started the game I didn't actually know what "taunt" means I mean I knew the word but didn't cross my mind it actually was the skill that held agro. Lucky the taunt skills didn't seem appealing to me to use as a healer/dd back then lol. Only found out what it is and how it works in like vet 10 levels when wanted to try tanking myself, and I found it out by asking a friend to teach me. He probably had a great laugh from my "oh so THIS is what holds a boss' agro?! ...wait how do I see if something is taunted?"

This is part of the issue I wish ZOS would pay attention to - ingame tutorial, help and general amount of info available absolutely SUCK. This is also part of why I'm generally extremely patient with underperforming players in dungeon(assuming they make any effort/communicate at all), because I realize they don't have anything in game actually teaching them how to play in preparation for vet content.

tinythinker

Similar problems occur in other games, but it is much harder in ESO because the roles aren't class/subclass defined. That means it's harder to know if someone is doing a proper rotation. If they do nothing or only ever light attack you would notice, but you would need to stop paying attention to the fight to really see what they are doing otherwise. I watched a stream about a month ago and the streamer was using light attacks and Snipe on every single thing. The streamer got frustrated with the other players being unhappy with that.

So here it is:

1. Group finders make random PUGs. Expectations for PUGs are unrealistic, however high or low they may be. I've been in games where people raged about groups made from the group finder because even if the people in that PUG were really trying, they didn't know their class, rotations, and the dungeons well enough to make it a wipe-free "pull it all and keep going" speed run.

2. The bonus is your compensation for joining a PUG. If the rewards for the daily random dungeon aren't enough to cover your frustration, then it isn't worth doing. In some games the bonus gives you tokens or other means to get better gear faster, or to get some other coveted outcome. I've suggested a system or two to help but who knows if ZOS thinks such options are worth it.

3. The options in this game are often confusing. It's hard to know what works in groups because you spend most of your early learning curve going solo. Plus each class can be any role or any kind of hybrid. Plus there are tons of sets and non-set items. When I started I was made a damage dealer by default in group finder, not because I had a great build or knew how to do great dps. I went from medium to heavy to stop dying as much while dual wielding. Not everyone runs out to watch build videos or has access to what is needed for good builds when they start, and even if they do it may be a bad fit for them. So expect low dps from at least one damage dealer in a group finder PUG. Same for a "below par" tank or healer. To do otherwise is not realistic. Feel lucky if that doesn't happen.

4. This game does nothing to prepare people for group content. So, why expect people to bring a different set of skills or gear or habits to group content than what they have been succeeding with in solo questing play? Again, suggestions to help with this have been made on more than one occasion. It would be nice if there was an Undaunted quest where you enter an instance and are told to pick up a sword and board or ice staff (in which heavy attack for s&b now is a weak taunt) and are told by an npc to taunt, then to move the target, then to hold it someplace, etc. The next room has a resto staff. And so on. But until then, ZOS expects less experienced players to "learn on the job", which again is why you get compensated for running random dailies. See Point #2.

5. Not all players who do their role poorly are lazy or expect to be carried. Group content can give people performance anxiety. They may screw up more, or become defensive, or just be too busy to respond. I've been in PUGs and guild groups where I politely explained how to do something about 10 times that was very simple. It didn't register or they didn't believe/understand me or they didn't care or... or... or... but the result was the same. Yes, it can be a lazy person expecting a carry but except for very extreme circumstances it's hard to really be sure if you are being fair. Again, see Points # 3 and #4. If you are going to do random dailies and you are upset over performance, either kick who you think is not doing well enough for your standards (which can be hard if it's one of the two damage dealers), eat the abandon penalty, or try to mentor your group in a helpful way.

- - - - - - - -

I myself have some performance anxiety in group content. I find reasons/excuses to avoid it most of the time

Plus in ESO I tend to feel that my gear and skill is sub-par. That doesn't mean other players won't disappoint or frustrate me, but that I know what it's like to be on both sides.

Managing expectations is the key.

I ran a random dungeon with my currently shelved Templar healer earlier this year, and my numbers/results were good enough for everything for vet trials and vMA. While waiting for someone who was afk a player tried to be friendly by asking about our gear. I told him. 5xJulianos +4/3Manus +3Willpower. It's my "not great at anything but more or less OK for most things" setup. He was shocked I had no monster set pieces. Not rude. Not belittling. Just stunned. It didn't compute for him that he might find someone in the group finder without such gear. And that's just it. We all have different expectations and approaches. A random PUG is like ordering a la carte blind by calling out numbers. If you aren't feeling patient, adventurous, and prepared for the possibility of disappointment, you probably shouldn't try it.

Jawasa

@blacksghost Whats so bad about group dungeons and trials? Why remove the only content that is not so easy that it becomes boring? People have allready got craglorne nerfed because the crying of solo players. We couldnt get too keep a singel challenging thing outside trials and dlc dungeons. They even nerf dlc dungeons constantly aswell.

bebynnag

Dantaria wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Oh, I understood that. But I still consider this expectation/view as totally incompatible with PUGging. Even if we take your definition of "professional" as "non-personal, strictly goal-focused"... other PUG users you might end up with may have a totally different view on it. They haven't necessarily signed up for that. And they won't necessarily have the "professional" level you expect. The fact that there's no "payment" playing a big role in that incompatibility. Also the fact that you don't choose your teammates. You don't necessarily choose your workmates either - but someone has chosen them for you or you have chosen them yourself, according to certain criteria. PUGging has no other criteria but availability.

In my view, PUGging is more like "hey, I'm alone, I feel like having a coffee and a chat, and some fun with unknown people". It may be nice as expected - or not, fun - or not, it may lead to getting new friends - or not. But that's a place where I definitely focus on people - not dungeon. The exact opposite of your view. Not saying mine or yours is better, just drastically opposed.

I understand better why we never seem to understand each other during this whole discussion. But I don't think we will come to anything more constructive than we already have...

Yeah, you apparently are a much more social person than I am

All my "social energy" pretty much goes to guilds, so deep social interactions is the very last thing I want in PUG. Doesn't mean I'm going full anti-social, just asocial: I say "hi", explain machanics if needed, say "thx for the run" if we finish the dungeon - and that's it.

To be completely clear: I don't have any other expectations, but finishing the dungeon, when I PUG. No dying and 30k+ DPS is for guildies who want to do vMoL. From PUG I want simple completion. If HM, I count the run glorious.

So when other DD (or all two if I level Undaunted for support char) do not pull enough, it's extremely - rant-deserving - frustrating. My DD chars are usually pulling ~25k without Undaunted and final polish, I make sure of that, but it's not enough to outright carry. So I basicly wasted time in queue and also got penalty. Yay

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Yarlenzey wrote: »

As an aside, can someone point to the in-game help topic that covers the concept of 'taunting'?

there isnt one!

not even after a taunt was randomly added to ice staves

there is no where within the actual game where these fundamental basic elements are explained

LOL, true. There is no in-game help.

So what you need to know if you're a tank:

1) There is no AOE taunt. Only single target. One from One-Handed and Shield skill-line and one from Undaunted. You really need one from Undaunted, because it's ranged.

2) It's not only about aggro, but also about debuff. Pierce Armor - taunt from One-Handed and Shield - debuffs boss on >5k for both Spell and Physical resistance. Debuff lasts shorter than aggro. Don't recast on aggro, recast on debuff.

3) But do not spam taunt. If you target is taunted too many times in short period it becomes immune to taunt. You Pierce Armor every second - boss starts ignoring you and goes for healer. Best strategy is using taunt once in ~8 sec. Because some vTrial bosses have shorter aggro time than one stated in skill description. Once per 8 sec is safe and good.

Something like that.

be carefull you may get occused of telling people how to play if you keep providing basic information!

houjo2000b16_ESO

The blame falls on Zenimax here- no other game can you go through, picking the abilities that sound like they do decent damage- yet end up doing half or less damage than if you'd just picked different abilities. Other games have logical synergies and you can figure out the progression of ability use to at least get decent dps fairly quickly.

Wanna test abilities here? You spend points, level it up, spend more points, level it up again- pay huge if you want to reset. Naturally most players aren't going to do a reset, and it doesn't help that when you go to the forums and ask for help most people here lie 'just play the class/spec/abilities you like and you'll do fine, no balance issues here'.

Then of course is the gearing issue- there's no catch up mechanic here, so new players in dungeons not only are playing specs that can be woefully garbage, but are using gear that's ages behind the top end players AND likely don't know which enchants/traits to use. Any other game- and if you're a decent player, just picking up the latest gear you can get won't put you too far behind.

This game has intentionally made it so you have to look up how to build your character in every way. Which is fine- but it also makes the majority of players that just want to play and have fun completely gimped before they even step into a dungeon.

At least you can go on the AH and buy some crafted gear- oh wait, no you can't, because there's a hundred of them and half of them have nothing of value and nobody wants to jump from AH to AH- and even if you did find the gear you need it's too expensive unless you're also a hardcore AH player in a hardcore AH guild and you get lucky enough for people that want your sale items to wander by your specific AH vendor.

ESO's a fantastic solo and casual game- but complaining about players pre-endgame raids having low dps is pointless- the system ensures that'll be the case until Zenimax decides to fix it.

Dantaria

Magdalina wrote: »

It's been changed You can no longer overtaunt if you're the only one taunting. However, several people using taunt more than 3 times in 10 seconds can and do overtaunt(which is why clueless dd/healers heavy attacking with frost staff is so frustrating).

Far as taunt in general goes, some bosses are immune to taunts, either fully or partially(or follow special mechanics such as Planar in WGT who follows whoever closes pinion), like Volenfell pre-gargoyle boss and last DC I boss in spinning stage(follow random player, nothing to be done about it).

Nope, it still works

We had an incident on Velidreth. I ran to "master-vHoF-tank" for confirmation - and he pretty much said that yep. They said they changed it. But nothing is actually changed. You still can overtaunt even if you're only one taunting.

@Magdalina

out51d3r

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.

Yep. I've soloed around 3/4s of them. I expect to carry when I go in with a group. Maybe if all of these people who come on the forums to complain about noobs in dungeons decided to git gud themselves instead of posting threads about how other players need to git gud, they'd solve their own problems.

Of course, the people that post these threads complaining about how other players aren't good don't like being told that they aren't that good themselves....