I am disgusted...

Aurie

Morbash wrote: »

If a plumber accepts a job, then I expect him to do his job quickly and efficiently. If he over-charges me and does a bad job, I'd likely take him to court. Your analogy falls flat.

Ah, today's litigious society.

So if you have dinner in a restaurant and need to send a dish back to the kitchen, do you take them to court? Just an example.

Personally if I am not happy with a service, I simply don't employ them again, or go to that restaurant again.

Jeremy

Vimora wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.

I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)

When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.

My friend,

It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.

People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.

On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.

Who is more entitled?

Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

I always see threads like this when City of Ash II comes up as a pledge.

There are exceptions - but most dungeons can be completed with bad DPS. Just avoid using the dungeon finder to do those that have DPS races (which is a lame way to to try and add challenge anyway).

It's hard for me to blame newer players because the challenge on this game all over the map. One build may work perfectly fine in one dungeon yet fail miserably in the other. There needs to be a more accurate indicator for difficulty as simply normal or veteran don't cut it. For example: the non-DLC vet Dungeons 1 aren't even in the same universe as say a veteran Falkreath Hold. And this isn't just true of damage dealers but tanks as well. Because I've lost count how many tanks I've seen who get one-shotted (even while blocking) in that dungeon. So these sudden shifts in difficulty can affect all players - even veteran players who aren't new to the game and know exactly what they are doing. So just imagine a player who is new to the game and who is trying to figure out these irregular challenges.

zaria

Davor wrote: »

Didn't read all the comments. Just read the first post and this is why I play ESO as a single player. How can multiplayer be fun when it seems lots of people are just like this. Entitled and think they are better than others.

People post about bad runs but its the exception, doing lots of random normal on my warden to get skillpoints and xp, had one bad run, darkshade 2 with an weak group. All other runs has been smooth. Only normal you can get problems in is the IPC and WGT ones as low level players often end in them and they are as hard as the easiest veteran ones.

Now one issue with the new system with retrait gems is that it will move lots of the players who do normal dungeons badly into the veteran ones.

shadoza

Vimora wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.

I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)

When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.

My friend,

It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.

People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.

On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.

Who is more entitled?

Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU

I was not meaning for it to sound like a cry for or against entitlement. My meaning was: if the high-level players will not find time and tolerance to train the low-levels (or the ignorant) in running the higher-leveled content, the community will be divided. Since it is not possible, currently, for lower-levels to gain the skill or gear that is required for group content, that division will eventually cause failure.

While my belief is not popular, it is based on personal experience. The majority of the players are solo-runners that complete group content occasionally. These players run alone or with a friend but complete mostly solo-based content. These players are the foundation for all MMO games. Since they are usually reserved players who do not vocalize much, they are largely ignored. Some believe they do not exist. As the high-level players develop their skills, they become more demanding on what gear/level they will play with. This attitude may be normal for MMOs; however, it creates a divide between the group-content farmers, and the solo-runners. in time, that divide becomes too wide a gap to close and the solo-runners will fade away taking a large chunk of the financial support with them. With less money coming in, the game developers will be forced to cut back on new content. This will cause some of the farmers to burn out and drop off. The longer between the new content, the more people will leave. Some will come back when new content is announced, but unless someone is spending money, the time will only increase between new content releases. The game cannot be supported by the very high-levels because they already have access to everything or can make something better than what is sold. The game will die.

It is my opinion that the high-level players have a responsibility to help train, guide, and mode the next "generation" into the group-content so that they can continue to feel challenged as well. If the advanced gear could be found/earned in some form of solo challenges, then none of this would be necessary as the solo-runners can acquire the gear necessary to test themselves in the higher challenges without being a burden to other players. But this is not happening so I do fear that with the continuation of group-focused new content, we will see a decline in solo-runners (casual players) and thereby see a decline in the success of the game.

Currently, I am not asking for anyone to carry me in a dungeon. I am asking how do I gain the advanced gear without completing group content or having to grind group-content to have enough gold to make a purchase?

Vimora

shadoza wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Ok, I'm literally disgusted. How come so many people have the nerve to queue for dungeons when they do ZERO dps??? I'm not talking about tanks or healers, I'm talking about people who sign up for dps roles. They have zero respect for other people's time. They just wanna be carried. I can't stress this enough.

What happens when a healer can't heal? They get kicked. What happens when a tank can't tank? They get kicked. But what happens when both dps suck big time? An insanely long and tedious run that fails at the very end because they can't finish last boss. You can't kick them because 1) you don't know which one to kick, 2) they don't kick each other.

So what's the solution? Ragequit every dungeon right off the bat, when you see both dps suck? I could literally quit 60-70% of the runs these days if I do that and waste all my playtime waiting on CD.

Don't blame me for this rant. It's been a long time coming.

This is why we need solo-friendly dungeons and challenging end-gamer content. Some folks want to play and enjoy the game without all the drama from those who believe only high-end players have the right to play group content.

I was chatting with some other players about the gear necessary to run group dungeons. At length, I asked, how do I get this gear; where do I find it? The response was group dungeons, trials...other group content. "?" So you suggest that I run more challenging content to get the more advanced gear so people will want to group with me; who wants to take an under-geared player into a group content run? Evidently no one. Response: No one wants to have to carry another player in group content. You have to purchase the advanced gear from guild stores. I don't have that kind of money. Response: you can get better gold by doing advanced content (group endgame content.)

When TESO went live, players helped players with dungeons and other group content. It seems now there is a divide: those that are advanced and those that are not. For those that are not, the support is rare or not there at all. It seems too easy for the current high-level players to forget that they did not get to that level on their own. They had help; support from someone that was just a little better than they, or a little more tolerant of failure.

My friend,

It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.

People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.

On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.

Who is more entitled?

Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU

I was not meaning for it to sound like a cry for or against entitlement. My meaning was: if the high-level players will not find time and tolerance to train the low-levels (or the ignorant) in running the higher-leveled content, the community will be divided. Since it is not possible, currently, for lower-levels to gain the skill or gear that is required for group content, that division will eventually cause failure.

While my belief is not popular, it is based on personal experience. The majority of the players are solo-runners that complete group content occasionally. These players run alone or with a friend but complete mostly solo-based content. These players are the foundation for all MMO games. Since they are usually reserved players who do not vocalize much, they are largely ignored. Some believe they do not exist. As the high-level players develop their skills, they become more demanding on what gear/level they will play with. This attitude may be normal for MMOs; however, it creates a divide between the group-content farmers, and the solo-runners. in time, that divide becomes too wide a gap to close and the solo-runners will fade away taking a large chunk of the financial support with them. With less money coming in, the game developers will be forced to cut back on new content. This will cause some of the farmers to burn out and drop off. The longer between the new content, the more people will leave. Some will come back when new content is announced, but unless someone is spending money, the time will only increase between new content releases. The game cannot be supported by the very high-levels because they already have access to everything or can make something better than what is sold. The game will die.

It is my opinion that the high-level players have a responsibility to help train, guide, and mode the next "generation" into the group-content so that they can continue to feel challenged as well. If the advanced gear could be found/earned in some form of solo challenges, then none of this would be necessary as the solo-runners can acquire the gear necessary to test themselves in the higher challenges without being a burden to other players. But this is not happening so I do fear that with the continuation of group-focused new content, we will see a decline in solo-runners (casual players) and thereby see a decline in the success of the game.

Currently, I am not asking for anyone to carry me in a dungeon. I am asking how do I gain the advanced gear without completing group content or having to grind group-content to have enough gold to make a purchase?

Grinding group content is not a good way to make money. The easiest way that is accessible to all is farming raw materials and selling them in the Guild Trader.

I have some tips:

Install Harvest Map if you are on PC.
Go to Stros M'kay and go around the coast of the island picking up everything. It is the best spot in the game to farm mats.
Join a Trading Guild. They are not demanding and basically anyone can join them.
Sell your stuff through the banker.
This is a really good way to make money.

Then, you can buy gear off the traders. They are cheap unless you go for best traits, in which case they are really expansive.
Research your traits tirelessly. Once you have 6 traits researched, craft yourself a set of Julianos (magic) or Hunding's rage (stamina) armor and you are geared for normal dungeons.

Okay, so... sorry if you already know all of this, I was just trying to answer your question.

WhitePawPrints

Vimora wrote: »

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.

So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.

First off, it's a game. It's for fun. If it stresses you out go outside and off the game.

Second, a lot of players like to explore their options rather than read guides. In my earlier days I'd test builds on normal dungeons.

Finally, yes there are terrible players. But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon, vet or normal, can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.

I go into dungeons expecting to pull all the aggo, heal all the players and do 80% of the dps most of the time. If another player likes what I do and ask me about it, I help them out. If they get mad about "showing off" then I complete the dungeon without giving them a second thought.

Vimora

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.

So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.

I'm actually glad you brought this up, because this is a point I failed to mention. I was leveling as a HEALER. I was never carried, as obviously there is only one healer in a group. And the point I wanna make is that if you need to level in dungeons as a noob, play a healer, NOT a dps. Templar healing is easy, an aweful lot easier than dpsing and you don't have to and actually can't freeload.

WhitePawPrints

Vimora wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.

So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.

I'm actually glad you brought this up, because this is a point I failed to mention. I was leveling as a HEALER. I was never carried, as obviously there is only one healer in a group. And the point I wanna make is that if you need to level in dungeons as a noob, play a healer, NOT a dps. Templar healing is easy, an aweful lot easier than dpsing and you don't have to and actually can't freeload.

Healers aren't effective in solo and overland content. It's very slow and grueling. So people that are going to level in any other way than group orientated content will not go purely heals.

Haquor

Vimora wrote: »

"Literally" is the most abused word, I know. So I don't use it lightly. Yes, I do feel like I'm gonna throw up when this happens each and every day and, sometimes, 5 times in a row over a span of 3 hours. And you keep going on, cuz you think it's impossible your bad luck never breaks and it never does...

Feeling physically ill due to someone elses performance in a video game... you have some
serious issues there.

Also, i was LITERALLY talking with my pug yesterday that i joined through finder about the constant crying about group finder on the forums. I never have to leave. I always find the group is capable of whatever im doing. Yesterday the lowest cp I did pledges with was over cap.

Individual experiences may vary i guess.

Vimora

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Axoinus wrote: »

Interesting. Review of previous posts show that OP considered him/herself a new player as recently as August 4th.

That's a pretty brief amount of time for someone to build a position like this and say things like "Its been a long time coming"

Ah yes, the well-known "you haven't been here long enough" arguement. I can tell you that I've played 20+ MMOs, you name it, I've played it. It took me less than a week to level up my main in ESO without knowing much about the game, really. That means I've been doing "endgame" for 4 weeks in the very least. Yes, it's a long time for me and it is your privilege to differ.

Surprised no one mentioned this. The complaint if from someone new to the game that power leveled, and clearly admitting to not know much about the game.

So a player that cannot play without reading builds and guides, criticizing other players.

I'm actually glad you brought this up, because this is a point I failed to mention. I was leveling as a HEALER. I was never carried, as obviously there is only one healer in a group. And the point I wanna make is that if you need to level in dungeons as a noob, play a healer, NOT a dps. Templar healing is easy, an aweful lot easier than dpsing and you don't have to and actually can't freeload.

Healers aren't effective in solo and overland content. It's very slow and grueling. So people that are going to level in any other way than group orientated content will not go purely heals.

Healers use dps gear, because healing is affected by the same stats as dps - spell damage and spell crit. CP allocation is where healers can differ from dps, but that's only after 50.

nimander99

This isn't the type of game where you can join a pug and steamroll content carrying half your team... It requires tactics and talent to play.

These people that are queueing for dungeons (not all but many) probably haven't done the dungeon, could probably benefit from you wisdom!

Instead of expecting a perfect group every time... If you notice battles are taking longer than should maybe you can ask them what they have slotted and they can effect a change right there making them more efficient. Or you can say nothing and ragequit.

Oh, also, tell them not to stand in the red...

And how dare they buy a game and utilize a system in the game to join a group... How dare they!!!!!

Yarlenzey

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

a lot of players like to explore their options rather than read guides. In my earlier days I'd test builds on normal dungeons.

Exactly. I spent a lot of time on character development, in order to avoid being 'that' dungeon player. Then ZOS would come along and nerf some aspect and set me back again.

Finally, yes there are terrible players. But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon, vet or normal, can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.

Your rationality is bit extreme here.

I've never played vet dungeons as I've never felt that I was good enough. So, my limited experience is with normal dungeons. They were played to:

• Get the daily rewards.
• Practice character and build effectiveness.
• Get experience - not everyone knows what is waiting in each dungeon; some of us like the surprise...

I'm not really sure how players starting off in dungeon play can walk straight in and be good at it. If more experienced players leave; or decide to kick under performing players, then how is that helpful to anyone?

One option you may consider is splitting your play time between guilds that focus on playing, rather than trading, that way you can engage in organised dungeon play; and playing with with less experienced players to help them get better.

DocFrost72

Defilted wrote: »

No one here is offering any solutions to the issue. It is easy to not like something... Harder to fix it so it is "Fair".

Not using the tool it one solution although not a good one.

I offer three solutions. Firstly, get experienced players you know and trust to group with you, then use the finder.

Secondly (the method I use more often than not), make a build that can carry a group.

Lastly, try communicating. Nothing serious, it can be as simple as "anyone need mechanics explained?" That's all you need to do. It works 99/100 times for me.

NolaArch

This was my experience this morning. And it's not even great DPS as I had to res constantly. The other DPS said they had "no idea" they weren't pulling their weight and that I should have offered to help them. Maybe? They had enough CP for me to expect they had some idea of what to do. My guess would be they were a product of Skyreach grinds. It was painful, to say the least.

Vimora

They don't care. The general consensus seems to be everyone has the right to play the content and do nothing in it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vimora wrote: »

It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.

People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.

On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.

Who is more entitled?

Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU

Players are not supposed to know or to study or research ANYTHING before they enter a dungeon. This is a GAME. You are supposed to discover and find out via trial and error.
Nowadays every game has walkthoughs all over the internet because people like to share their findings and solutions, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE to read them first - what game would THAT become ? Study first, play later ?
My very first dungeon in ESO was Spindleclutch. I was level 12ish, some undaunted NPC had told me to get there, quest marker was pointing there, so I went there. I had no clue it was an instanced dungeon, (didn't even know what that meant back then), I had no clue it was meant to be played by a group of 4 people... basically, I had no clue of anything at all. So I went in -and of course 10 seconds later I was dead and back out. Some people were standing outside, I whispered one of them, asking "I've played solo so far, but that's too hard, could you please help me in there" ?
Whoops, 1 minute later, that person had grouped three of us "outside" and herself (well, the character was a girl), and hop we were in the dungeon. And that was by far the best adrenaline rush I've had in a game ever, even until now, and I thought "wow... that's what it's like ... ?". I don't know how long we stayed in there, I don't what I or anyone was doing, all I know is that she let us do our thing and just healed us through it. That was... amazing.
Later on I met a nice guild, people explained stuff to me, and I've stuck in the game since then. While I originally had planned to do strictly the solo-story-PVE part of it. That's the long-lasting effect of amazing acts made by amazing people.

Vimora wrote: »

...Because after a certain point you can't be bothered. It's work to develope something that comes with a lot of strings. Now, I prefer solo and I prefer not to ask for help. This is not because I'm anti-social, it's because I've been there, done that and I ran out of steam.
MMOs, by nature, have tools to facilitate grouping. It's the developer's job to make these tools, make them good and actionable. Or the game will just suck.

That's your real problem. You want people's CHARACTERS to play with you but you don't want to play with people. That's just not how it works, at least not in ESO. Guilds are the alpha and omega of ESO for every single part of the game, with the single exception of solo-overland-questing gameplay. You can stick to that and never bother with people. But if you want to do group play, be it dungeons, raids, PVP, whatever... at some stage you'll reach a point where you will NEED a guild. No good player ever "got good" without a guild. No serious run of any even half-challenging content is ever done with PUGs. Progression means guilds.

You should really make a choice here, because PUGging will get you only increasingly frustrated while you progress, and develop expectations towards your fellow PUGgers. If you want to do group content efficiently, JOIN A GUILD. Else just stick to strictly solo play.
I understand that guilds, being full of those strange animals called humanbeings, are full of strings and inconvenience that come along with the nice things and relationships. But you simply cannot have it both ways. Guilds ARE the "grouping tool" you're looking for.

blacksghost

Zypheran wrote: »

@auronessb16_ESO I think your experience was unlucky. The majority of players online are very friendly. You should give this content another try. Also, guilds can be great places where players of all experience levels can do content together without the aggressive reactions that can sometimes be found in PUGs

I wish the above was true, sadly though I have found plenty of guilds were a few swiftly exclude the many, and left even more where the 660's spend half the time in guild chat bitching about new or less skilled players. Guilds may sell themselves as inclusive non judgemental but often fall well short.

i have been fortunate in meeting individuals who helped me understand some aspects, often some one levelling an alt who swaps a little help for a wealth of wisdom. I'd rather see zos do away entirely With limited number group content. Public dungeons work well enough. Group content is just the biggest fail in Eso

anitajoneb17_ESO

blacksghost wrote: »

I wish the above was true, sadly though I have found plenty of guilds were a few swiftly exclude the many, and left even more where the 660's spend half the time in guild chat bitching about new or less skilled players. Guilds may sell themselves as inclusive non judgemental but often fall well short.

Yup. Finding a good guild suited to your playstyle, temperament, etc... can be hard. Yet not impossible : there are so many guilds out there. Some of them are REALLY friendly - unfortunately they're hard to find since they're usually the ones with more confidential recruitment policies and don't spam zone chat with advertisement.
Whenever I PUG, I always try to get in touch with the people in the group and ask them what guilds they're in and how it's like and all. Just to get an idea and to get to know less "public" guilds too.

Vimora

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

It's not about only high-end players having the right to play group content. It's about players who think they can wear random gear and use nothing but light/heavy attacks inside a group dungeon.

People who do well usually take the time to research what kind of gear they are supposed to wear to perform their roles. They take the time to obtain such gear. They take the time to read their skills so that they know which ones are best used in which scenarios. Sometimes they even take the time to rank up those skills.

On the other hand, people who do a terrible job do none of the above and expect to be carried.

Who is more entitled?

Sincerelly,
@Vimora, PC EU

Players are not supposed to know or to study or research ANYTHING before they enter a dungeon. This is a GAME. You are supposed to discover and find out via trial and error.
Nowadays every game has walkthoughs all over the internet because people like to share their findings and solutions, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE to read them first - what game would THAT become ? Study first, play later ?
My very first dungeon in ESO was Spindleclutch. I was level 12ish, some undaunted NPC had told me to get there, quest marker was pointing there, so I went there. I had no clue it was an instanced dungeon, (didn't even know what that meant back then), I had no clue it was meant to be played by a group of 4 people... basically, I had no clue of anything at all. So I went in -and of course 10 seconds later I was dead and back out. Some people were standing outside, I whispered one of them, asking "I've played solo so far, but that's too hard, could you please help me in there" ?
Whoops, 1 minute later, that person had grouped three of us "outside" and herself (well, the character was a girl), and hop we were in the dungeon. And that was by far the best adrenaline rush I've had in a game ever, even until now, and I thought "wow... that's what it's like ... ?". I don't know how long we stayed in there, I don't what I or anyone was doing, all I know is that she let us do our thing and just healed us through it. That was... amazing.
Later on I met a nice guild, people explained stuff to me, and I've stuck in the game since then. While I originally had planned to do strictly the solo-story-PVE part of it. That's the long-lasting effect of amazing acts made by amazing people.

Vimora wrote: »

...Because after a certain point you can't be bothered. It's work to develope something that comes with a lot of strings. Now, I prefer solo and I prefer not to ask for help. This is not because I'm anti-social, it's because I've been there, done that and I ran out of steam.
MMOs, by nature, have tools to facilitate grouping. It's the developer's job to make these tools, make them good and actionable. Or the game will just suck.

That's your real problem. You want people's CHARACTERS to play with you but you don't want to play with people. That's just not how it works, at least not in ESO. Guilds are the alpha and omega of ESO for every single part of the game, with the single exception of solo-overland-questing gameplay. You can stick to that and never bother with people. But if you want to do group play, be it dungeons, raids, PVP, whatever... at some stage you'll reach a point where you will NEED a guild. No good player ever "got good" without a guild. No serious run of any even half-challenging content is ever done with PUGs. Progression means guilds.

You should really make a choice here, because PUGging will get you only increasingly frustrated while you progress, and develop expectations towards your fellow PUGgers. If you want to do group content efficiently, JOIN A GUILD. Else just stick to strictly solo play.
I understand that guilds, being full of those strange animals called humanbeings, are full of strings and inconvenience that come along with the nice things and relationships. But you simply cannot have it both ways. Guilds ARE the "grouping tool" you're looking for.

So you are suggesting that nobody should play with PUGs. PUGs shouldn't exist because we are all supposed to make friends and play with our little, insular groups. It goes again'st my idea of MMO.

Bhaal5

auronessb16_ESO wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

...Also, guilds can be great places where players of all experience levels can do content together without the aggressive reactions that can sometimes be found in PUGs

I know there are good people, but I'm on a console, without a mic or keyboard. Communication with guild mates is near impossible, which is why I get booted from guilds, even when I am active. I need to accept that I cannot enjoy much of ESO.

I posted in this thread to let @Vimora know that not everyone is not out to make his life miserable. Some people just want to be a part of things too.

@auronessb16_ESO. Your on console without mic or keyboard? What console?
I run a guild and there are many forms or communication to use. But it does come down to the members willingness to participate within the guild and be an active members
No mic: either a handfree kit from a phone will work on a ps4 control (not sure for xbone)/around $40 will get you a corded chat headset OR the free one that comes with the ps4.
Communication app: most larger guilds use a communication app like discord/band/line to organize/coordinate their events like pvp/trials etc. Use them, makes a world of difference and a sense of "been apart of a community"
Then their is text chat in game, yes its pretty poor but its still there, use it.

Doing atleast one of those 3 things, most guild will see atleast your trying to give it a go. But it you havent bothered with any of them, Well thats on you.
Nothing is impossible, only if you let it be

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vimora wrote: »

So you are suggesting that nobody should play with PUGs. PUGs shouldn't exist because we are all supposed to make friends and play with our little, insular groups. It goes again'st my idea of MMO.

No.
I'm not saying that PUGs shouldn't exist.
But I'm saying that you will NOT experience any serious progression by running in PUGs, and that instead you'll get increasingly annoyed that people in PUGs do not fulfill your increasing expectations. You'll make your life ingame literally miserable (and I hope the word "disgusting" wasn't to be taken that literally, because if it was, then you're going to make your real life miserable too). And you're gonna make the runs of people you PUGs with miserable too - they don't deserve it.

The game's designed around guilds. That's all really.

But... your choice. See, you also refuse to learn, adapt and take advice and see the obvious...just because.

auronessb16_ESO

It's not a case of "bothering with them", it is simple economics. I don't work, have a fixed income and I don't have a mobile device.The computer is in another room. I spent two weeks with broken buttons on my controller, until I could save up enough for a new controller. Not everybody has disposable cash, but I want to play the game too. Really the only reason I play ESO is because Uncle Pete (Hines) said he played solo and he had fun. So Figured if he could do it, I could.

bebynnag

zaria wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@puffytheslayer :

What you suggest looks more like a test rather than an actual tutorial.
While I probably wouldn't mind going through them, I'm not sure it's fine to have people take an "exam" before actually running content. I prefer the option where they try & fail & learn while doing so.

Besides, I suspect than many "requirements' that (some) good players tend to impose onto "newbies" would go far beyond that. So they wouldn't be happy anyway and it would not solve the problem.

And finally, it is true that, while most dungeons are relatively easy, the requirement are a bit higher than just block/taunt/move/DPS/heal. There are mechanics, there's group synergy, there's situational awareness, there's quite a bit of various things to get used to. People who have passed those tests would believe they're "good enough" when they're not yet good enough.

In fact, the best place for knowledge in this game is GUILDS. This is an MMO after all. The problem is with people who rely on anonymous group finder for everything in this game, because they refuse to join guilds, and I'm not sure why. I know guilds are a whole story for themselves, with all the drama and jazz, but nice and truly friendly guilds are all over the place. With some efforts, people can find one that suits them.

im sorry my off the top of the head randomly thrown together basic suggestion isnt thorough enough for you, i would reply with an essay but i graduated from uni 10 years ago and dont feel the need to write a thesis on how zos could help lower the ceiling & raise the floor (something they claim to want to do)

the idea of the tutorials i suggested were to give new players the BASIC idea of the role

basic idea

BASIC IDEA

not an end game build, but the basic fundamental idea that:-

Healers need to keep the team alive,
tanks are supposed to have things attack them,
and DD's are supposed to kill things, and since the dds are often attacked by multiple things at the same time it makes sense to use skills that attack multiple things at the same time

now im sure your going to argue my opinion again just for the sake of it, but im bored. bye!

p.s. it wasnt a test, if you has actually bothered to read my post instead of trying to find a fault in it so you could write YET ANOTHER essay in reply to a very basic idea that most people consider a good idea you would of realised that

Yes, its my undaunted academy, teaching players an simple rotation, player has an bow the npc recommend using volley on groups, also about AoE, using poison arrow on harder enemies, far from optimized but purpose is to teach players an rotation.
This has the benefit that then player is asked to use an rotation he will not start chasing his own tail.

Also teaching the basic of healing and tanking,

you run an undauted academy? thats great, maybe zos could look to you for help creating a guide for their players, as i do feel they should be providing the information in game and the resposibility shouldnt fall to individual players/streamers etc

Bhaal5

So then its option 3 with a side of free mic that comes with ps4 (again not sure what comes with xbone).
There is a text chat in game (dont need a keyboard) which will make it challenging but atleast you are trying, most guild larger guilds will see that your atleast giving it a go and lend their time.

WhitePawPrints

Yarlenzey wrote: »

Finally, yes there are terrible players. But, nearly every non-dlc dungeon, vet or normal, can be solo'd be a skilled player so if you're relying on your teammates then you're not as skilled as you think you are.

Your rationality is bit extreme here.

I've never played vet dungeons as I've never felt that I was good enough. So, my limited experience is with normal dungeons. They were played to:

• Get the daily rewards.
• Practice character and build effectiveness.
• Get experience - not everyone knows what is waiting in each dungeon; some of us like the surprise...

The final point I was making wasn't geared toward the average player, and directed at the players that rage on the forums about their PuG groups. These players are creating their own problems and frustrations by expecting to get good groups every time by using the group finder tool. I'm generalizing this thread with the many other threads I have seen regarding this subject.

On the forums I have seen raging "elitist" complain about how their vote to kick failed repeatedly. And that this consequently made them leave the dungeon, and wait through the fifteen minute timer on Group Finder tool. They cannot get members of their guilds to help them out, and no friends to help them out, so they rely on PuG and blame the PuG players for not getting them through a dungeon, because they lack the skill to do it themselves.

In example, I have seen very few kick votes initiated at the start of a dungeon. Maybe half a dozen. Two stick out very well in my mind though because the player that initiated the vote identified themselves by raging over group chat. In both of those instances, that player rage quit (the other was consequently kicked). The result? The dungeon went a lot smoother, even before their average replacement came in.

Thus I draw the conclusion that these players, more often than not in my experience, are expecting to be carried themselves. They may have the basics to fulfill their role, and will rage at others who cannot, but don't possess the adequate skill to the point where it doesn't matter if others cannot perform their role.
That might also be why guildies and friends won't group up with them, because even though a non-dlc dungeon can easily be completed with two skilled players, a skilled player doesn't want to carry someone from a guild or friends list when they expect they may have to carry the rest of the PuG too.

Gear grinds are different, since you need the player to be of appropriate level (usually cp160). I've done those before, where it was organized with two to three of us, where we just needed a player to loot and trade. Didn't require them for their role, for their contribution, or anything other than to loot, because the two to three of us could complete the dungeon, quickly, on our own.

disintegr8

I think the solution is simple - if you are not happy with the players being delivered by group finder, don't use it.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO

Weird idea, but hear me out...
There's a figher's guild, lore friendly, quest line, whatever. Single player TES. Fun fun.
There's a mage's guild, again, same as figher, serves the same purpose, yada yada.
Now we also already have an Undaunted guild. What do they do? Provide a skill line. What if in addition to skills, leveling undaunted provided a tutorial for players who want to do dungeons? It could be a series of single-player quests that teach players how to fill their roles. That way, no one would have an excuse going into real group content, so long as they were paying some attention during their Undaunted tutorial. Like a quest could be "heal this group of NPCs while they kill the boss!" or if you queue as a tank, "Keep this boss's attention off the DPS and healers!" and if you're a DPS, "Kill this mob/boss before time runs out!" just to get players to actively think about their roles, and provide tips and suggestions for being better at it. As the game stands, the only way to really know how to effectively fill a role in group content is to 1) know from other games already, 2) have an experienced player tell you, 3) google it, or 4) figure it out yourself. It's unfortunate how many players try option 4 and fail, but we can remedy that with training and useful tutorials.

Dantaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The game's designed around guilds. That's all really.

But... your choice. See, you also refuse to learn, adapt and take advice and see the obvious...just because.

How convenient is the the world-view you're trying to make us see this whole thread, isn't it? When you PUG, you're joining randoms, poor PUGs do not deserve rage, randoms aren't responsible, those poor queueing people aren't responsible...

Well, how. About. No?

"Want competence - join the guild, it's all about guilds". Yeah, you just want to free people from responsibility.

"Hmmm. It's a group content. So I will be like... With other people. Hmm. Maybe I should research something before joining other people so I wouldn't be a burden?" - nope, not happening in your beautiful idealistic world. Even shouldn't happen in your idealistic world.

Suppose someone queued vet as tank - got DDs who pulled 5k each - didn't finish dungeon, is understandably frustrated about it, wants to rant. HIS OWN FAULT. Shouldn't have PUGged.

Yes. The one who actually did spend his time to learn the game to pull his own weight, the one who actually worked is at fault. Not poor PUGs. Not those who PUG vet without any idea how to fulfill their role.

"Join the guild" - yeah, sure, it answers everything. "Game has no good, actually usefull tutorial - why try voicing disapproval so maybe things would change, just join the guild". "People propose some sort of testing before joining vet - HOW DARE THEY, next thing they will propose is some sort of exam for entering University after school and this is so offensive, so just join the guild". "In every situation - just **** up and join the guild".

Very convenient position. Allows you to point and laugh at frustrated players who actually worked and tried. And those who PUG vet without any consideration for others? Innocent as newborn children.

Yeah. Right.

***

Also, all of you with "but how do I get gear without running end-game content?".

Are. You. Even. Serious?

Farm normals. Farm normal dungeons, farm normal trials. What do you think you need, the golden jewellry? Pha. No you don't. Difference between blue one and golden is tiny.

Farm normal, upgrate cloth to epic, only weapons absolutely must be golden, practice rotation - woo-hoo, here comes DPS!

If you cannot pull 20-25k without things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials - things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials will not help you. They absolutely WILL NOT.

lagrue

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Much entitlement. How dare someone buy a game and play it.

disgusting isn't it?

shadoza

Dantaria wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The game's designed around guilds. That's all really.

But... your choice. See, you also refuse to learn, adapt and take advice and see the obvious...just because.

How convenient is the the world-view you're trying to make us see this whole thread, isn't it? When you PUG, you're joining randoms, poor PUGs do not deserve rage, randoms aren't responsible, those poor queueing people aren't responsible...

Well, how. About. No?

"Want competence - join the guild, it's all about guilds". Yeah, you just want to free people from responsibility.

"Hmmm. It's a group content. So I will be like... With other people. Hmm. Maybe I should research something before joining other people so I wouldn't be a burden?" - nope, not happening in your beautiful idealistic world. Even shouldn't happen in your idealistic world.

Suppose someone queued vet as tank - got DDs who pulled 5k each - didn't finish dungeon, is understandably frustrated about it, wants to rant. HIS OWN FAULT. Shouldn't have PUGged.

Yes. The one who actually did spend his time to learn the game to pull his own weight, the one who actually worked is at fault. Not poor PUGs. Not those who PUG vet without any idea how to fulfill their role.

"Join the guild" - yeah, sure, it answers everything. "Game has no good, actually usefull tutorial - why try voicing disapproval so maybe things would change, just join the guild". "People propose some sort of testing before joining vet - HOW DARE THEY, next thing they will propose is some sort of exam for entering University after school and this is so offensive, so just join the guild". "In every situation - just **** up and join the guild".

Very convenient position. Allows you to point and laugh at frustrated players who actually worked and tried. And those who PUG vet without any consideration for others? Innocent as newborn children.

Yeah. Right.

***

Also, all of you with "but how do I get gear without running end-game content?".

Are. You. Even. Serious?

Farm normals. Farm normal dungeons, farm normal trials. What do you think you need, the golden jewellry? Pha. No you don't. Difference between blue one and golden is tiny.

Farm normal, upgrate cloth to epic, only weapons absolutely must be golden, practice rotation - woo-hoo, here comes DPS!

If you cannot pull 20-25k without things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials - things you can find only in vet dungeons/trials will not help you. They absolutely WILL NOT.

You really do not have an understanding do you?