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Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.Edited by Derra on July 13, 2017 6:38AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
I would probably change nothing at all on sorc (maybe take away overload bar and remove curse stacking but that's all I can think of and that's not that much of an issue). I mostly blame sets and other stupid mechanics for the mess. Amberplasm for example gives twice as much stats as Julianos in the 5 piece bonus without any requirement. Necropotence might be fine in terms of stats it gives but it's not fine because shields have such an absurd scaling with max magicka. The whole shield mechanic seems to be balanced more around 37-40k magicka instead of 50-60k magicka.
The other thing is vampire, it's just stupid that it's impossible to finish a shielding char at 10% health with execute spam and 4k weapondamage because of how ridiculous strong undead is together with healing ward.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.3 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
I would probably change nothing at all on sorc (maybe take away overload bar and remove curse stacking but that's all I can think of and that's not that much of an issue). I mostly blame sets and other stupid mechanics for the mess. Amberplasm for example gives twice as much stats as Julianos in the 5 piece bonus without any requirement. Necropotence might be fine in terms of stats it gives but it's not fine because shields have such an absurd scaling with max magicka. The whole shield mechanic seems to be balanced more around 37-40k magicka instead of 50-60k magicka.
The other thing is vampire, it's just stupid that it's impossible to finish a shielding char at 10% health with execute spam and 4k weapondamage because of how ridiculous strong undead is together with healing ward.
I don't really agree with the Vampire comment.. It may be an issue if you're stam - but that extra fire damage you take all the time (and lets face it, since the single-target dmg buf for flame staves, there's a lot of fire damage around).
I don't run Vamp for that reason - I don't want my shields to take 25% extra damage against half of cyro.
I guess you could try Red Mountain? I just happen to be selling a nice pair of gold rings
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
I would probably change nothing at all on sorc (maybe take away overload bar and remove curse stacking but that's all I can think of and that's not that much of an issue). I mostly blame sets and other stupid mechanics for the mess. Amberplasm for example gives twice as much stats as Julianos in the 5 piece bonus without any requirement. Necropotence might be fine in terms of stats it gives but it's not fine because shields have such an absurd scaling with max magicka. The whole shield mechanic seems to be balanced more around 37-40k magicka instead of 50-60k magicka.
The other thing is vampire, it's just stupid that it's impossible to finish a shielding char at 10% health with execute spam and 4k weapondamage because of how ridiculous strong undead is together with healing ward.
I don't really agree with the Vampire comment.. It may be an issue if you're stam - but that extra fire damage you take all the time (and lets face it, since the single-target dmg buf for flame staves, there's a lot of fire damage around).
I don't run Vamp for that reason - I don't want my shields to take 25% extra damage against half of cyro.
I guess you could try Red Mountain? I just happen to be selling a nice pair of gold rings
It's not 25% extra damage if you can manage to stay in stage 3 and avoid stage 4. There's not much downside of vampire in stage 3, you really only take a bit more damage from magicka dks (it would be a downside if magicka dk would have an execute, the way how it is now is that they can get you low but struggle to finish you). Undead is just so incredible strong overall (on heavy armor builds it's also overperforming in my opinion).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭A Nightblade does a 47k parse, whIle my mSorc that hits 40k on live can only get 36k on the pts. We did get nerfed indirectly via Ilambir, Grothdarr, mundus and trait changes that don't play into sorc strengths, and reduced uptime on concussed.
*47K on a skeleton (i.e. not a real fight with mobs, boss mechanics, moving targets, and incoming damage)
FTFY“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”0 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A Nightblade does a 47k parse, whIle my mSorc that hits 40k on live can only get 36k on the pts. We did get nerfed indirectly via Ilambir, Grothdarr, mundus and trait changes that don't play into sorc strengths, and reduced uptime on concussed.
And so did every other class using these sets and traits. Are you joking?Edited by Idinuse on July 14, 2017 2:08PMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's not their damage that's an issue. Every class is allowed to be powerful; it's how ridiculous their survivability that comes with. That's the issue.
That's more of a damage shield issue than it is a sorc issue though1 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
I would agree if vigor was the only defensive mechanic available to stam builds. It isn't. Take shuffle, dodge roll, rally/forward momentum into account as well. Shields are the only things that's standing between our light Armour and the damage.
1. You can't spam offensive abilities while blocking and/or dodgerolling as Stam, ya big doofus. Magsorc shielders can mitigate and be offensive at the same time.
2. Rally is only an effective heal over vigor --see above poster for limited effectiveness of that skill- at certain health %'ages. It takes a great deal of skill, timing, and luck to utilize properly in PvP. If you misfire, you get a crappy heal at high resource cost. Shielders, again, just gotta hit that shield.
3. Shuffle is expensive resource wise and RNG based in how it mitigates: 15% of the time. Shielders have guaranteed mitigation.
4. Stam has positioning requirements to apply damage and mitigate -- and dodge roll in again disrupts that. Shielders don't have to pay attention to positioning to mitigate with a shield or deal damage. Plus ranged ez mode.
5. Magsorcs (and magblades to a lesser extent) have the distinct advantage and privilege to wear the armor weight that best synergizes with their class BECAUSE shields are OP. Everyone else who actually knows what they're doing in PvP has to wear heavy unless they're content with dying/ganking mostly.
6. You do not appear to have enough knowledge about Stam playstyle to be making comments about its toolkit and how it works.
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ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭More complain ? More nerfing , sorc is always the meta role in the game
I cant wait to see the next stamblade nerf rofl
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revonine✭✭✭✭Honestly I feel the only thing that makes mag sorc so incredibly powerful right now is amberplasm. Any mag sorc worth anything in pvp wears that set and it eliminates a mag sorcs only weakness, running them out of stam.
It's also allowing me more than enough stam to break every cc, do the occasional dodge roll, and adds more fuel for Conversion so I can sustain almost indefinitely unless I'm under a crazy amount of pressure.0 -
tossop✭✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.0
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GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lets face it, shields are not balanced. You can confirm this simply because zos released shield breaker instead of balancing them.PS4 NA DC5 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭really just need a purgable shield inhibitor debuff. so you cant activate shields while you have that on you.
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Skander✭✭✭✭✭
✭In a 1v1 scenario, Sorcs have the biggest advantage due to shields and light armourI meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
-Elder Nightblades Online
Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you have to die in those situations5 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In a 1v1 scenario, Sorcs have the biggest advantage due to shields and light armour
good argument ,let's nerf the sorc because in a " 1v1 scenario he have the biggest advantage "
yeah -_-Edited by Apherius on July 21, 2017 11:07AM0 -
Agalloch✭✭✭✭✭All the movies/streams from them were ONLY with mag sorcs . Why???
They like ONLY Mag Sorcs
I have 3 accounts ....2 mag sorcs ...one for me ..and one for my wife....I made this thread because even we have dk, templar, nightblade ...in alll of the combinations...Mag Sorc it's easy mode in this game...3 -
Micah_Bayer✭✭✭✭✭Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 5001 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit passive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..Edited by Biro123 on July 22, 2017 12:03AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meh, they should just make it so that only one shield can be active at a time, so if you activate another one it overrides the old. That would be balanced imo.1 -
tossop✭✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
You don't even know what you are talking about.
Heavy armor primery defense is high resistance and increase healing and healht + blocking. Heavy armor is better than shields, because a shield lost effectiveness too much when more than one person hit you. Blocking and heavy armor is far better to be defensive. You don't see top tier magicka shield stacker trial tank, as you don't see magsorc face tanking 25 people for 5 minutes.
Heavy armor on stam class is the best way to have weapon damage, because the best stamina damage sets are heavy armor sets. You don't lost a ton of damage like light armor does. Also, it's harder to combine 2 magicka sets with heavy armor, cuz all good magicka set are in light armor, so you need to have a crafted set to get a decent heavy armor set + a light armor set on weapons and jewlery. Builds are limited.
Sorc doesn't have acces to major or minor mending, making them health based is more complicated than a templar or a dk.
And yes, HP is better than shield,cuz shield have no resistances.
Also, the worst thing you said is here : "Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing" A 9k shield on you mean a 6k shield on the pet, pet which have no defensives cps and impen, it's so easy to kill the pet than you only need 2-3s to do it.
Shields aren't over performing at all. Shieldstacking is a problem : Annulment + hardened ward is too much. But a 9k shield is not a problem at all. Sorc need Annulment + hardened ward to go and a streak buff to make them balanced. Also, harness magicka sustain back is too much.Edited by Aedaryl on July 22, 2017 5:35PM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Again: Don't forget noCP. A lot of the suggestions thrown around here would completely gut Sorcs in noCP as Bastion is not available there. If you play noCP for a while you see that shields are less of a problem there because you can't stack Magicka and use Bastion to get a big shield in the first place.
If anything one could always buff Shattering Blows, but in a way people have to choose between great overall damage and weaker damage vs shields and vice versa.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Pastas✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Sorcs need BUFFS, not nerfs. The size of Hardened Ward in No-CP is tragically small.
This one made me laugh
WARNINGThis post may Include horrible gramatical and orthographic errorsRead on your own riskAD
Dar'foo Stamblade Zorg-gro-Wurf DK tank Far-Datxo Templar healer Valmir Spellius Magsorc
Randolf Omberic Magblade Felien Golas Magdk Faenor Oakwood Stamplar Sader Dustorm Stamsorc
EP
Do'Ragash Stamdk Caius Grachus Stamden Dalyne Narus Magplar
DC
Melkar Spellius MagdenPC EU0 -
tossop✭✭1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my aprimary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.[/quote]
You don't even know what you are talking about.
Heavy armor primery defense is high resistance and increase healing and healht + blocking. Heavy armor is better than shields, because a shield lost effectiveness too much when more than one person hit you. Blocking and heavy armor is far better to be defensive. You don't see top tier magicka shield stacker trial tank, as you don't see magsorc face tanking 25 people for 5 minutes.
Heavy armor on stam class is the best way to have weapon damage, because the best stamina damage sets are heavy armor sets. You don't lost a ton of damage like light armor does. Also, it's harder to combine 2 magicka sets with heavy armor, cuz all good magicka set are in light armor, so you need to have a crafted set to get a decent heavy armor set + a light armor set on weapons and jewlery. Builds are limited.
Sorc doesn't have acces to major or minor mending, making them health based is more complicated than a templar or a dk.
And yes, HP is better than shield,cuz shield have no resistances.
Also, the worst thing you said is here : "Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing" A 9k shield on you mean a 6k shield on the pet, pet which have no defensives cps and impen, it's so easy to kill the pet than you only need 2-3s to do it.
Shields aren't over performing at all. Shieldstacking is a problem : Annulment + hardened ward is too much. But a 9k shield is not a problem at all. Sorc need Annulment + hardened ward to go and a streak buff to make them balanced. Also, harness magicka sustain back is too much.[/quote]
U not reading my post. I showed U how to create heavy armor from light armor. Only missing 10% more health and 10% boost to healing, which U can get with just argonian passives. Only good stamina heavy armor is fury, but this one not working vs builds with low crit, because it take long to build weapon damage. Also heavy armor passives are worst one. All other heavy sets are comparable to others light, medium sets so no, heavy armours isn't the best one. There are also good crafted and noncrafted heavy magicka sets, comparable to ones for stamina. I can naming one and it is medusa set. Very strong magicka heavy armour pvp set.
I only want showing u that spamming strong shields is better then rally + vigour + dodge + block.
Rally is one time strong 6k heal, which Is often debufed and require 2h weapon.
Vigor is 1.3k heal per sec which is often debufed.
Dodge is counterable with very many skills and sets and its very costly in heavy armor.
Block is stamina eraser now, not very usable when U not focusing build to block reduction and require 1h+s weapon. Using block as blocking heavy damage attacks is myth, U can't block crystal frag when U are next to sorc. U can block only wrecking blow because it take 1sec to cast.
More armor doesn't matter when sorc have 5k armor penetration from light armor passives, but more armor helps but not much when sorc can archive 15k penetration so easy.
U write that shields don't have resistance but shields are noncritable, which is 10 - 20% damage resist.
I don't have problem with 7k shields but 10k+ is out of balance, because its allow that sorc don't need spent any sets, stats on defensive, just focusing all stats on offensive and still surviving. This isn't case with any stam classes. When they go to pure offensive route with only damage sets in medium armor with dodge they are wrecked by new wardens in a few sec.or they live little longer versus sorcs.
Sorc are just ez mode while stam classes are so much harder to play.
I don't want Nerf sorc, I want Nerf shields scaling overall or boosting stamina class defensive options, one morph of bone shield would be magic shield like warden crystallized shield.
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NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorcs do not need a damage nerf... They preform a little too well in PvP but so does a ganking nightblade. The issue is that they can screw you and get away spamming shields. The shields need to cost a little more.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
Edited by Biro123 on July 24, 2017 1:49PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
Sorcs can:
Process of fighting a sorc on an non NB. You attack them, but they use their 30k+ spammable shields to negate any crits. You weaken them and they just stack again. So they run low on mag, they streak away, deal a few times, drop mines and continue attacking. They don't even need to break free from roots due to streak. They can just continue attacking from afar, and if you get close, zip.
What I would do is make streak/cloak not work in roots, and make defile etc work on shields. Every other defensive trait has solid drawbacks.Edited by ak_pvp on July 24, 2017 3:13PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2017 4:45PM3 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭Now shields are 30k? Lol
With 41k magicka on my current CP PvP sorc, it's roughly an 11k Ward and 10k Dampen. And it takes me 2 out of 6 seconds to cast those.
Getting more magicka has way to high of an opportunity cost (inner light is to many slots). And I'm already using the mage and a high-ish magicka setup
Anyone talking about shields being un-critable just needs to invest in impen. Bingo, you have the benefit of not being critted, and your armor resistance too.
Hot tip, most sorcs wear impen too, because all the other traits suck for PvP. 7x impen for about 26% less crit damage taken, or infused/Divines for about 1-4% more damage done. It's a no brainier.0
This discussion has been closed.